Rant and Rave Without Repercussions - Includes Season 6 Spoilers

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Most Sansa fanvids are now just tributes to how she's a survivor, which, granted, she is, but what was the point of her surviving again, mind you? That story had no imagination whatsoever. It was basically written in auto-pilot with all the "juicy" bits aka rape and violence against women on. Nothing really interesting to see. Even Myranda had to die to service the story of another man.

Ps. Myranda was the whore and had to die, and Sansa was the Madonna that had to he saved. There's no other way going around this.

[Le Cygne]

9 minutes ago, Alayne's Shadow. said:

Most Sansa fanvids are now just tributes to how she's a survivor, which, granted, she is, but what was the point of her surviving again, mind you? That story had no imagination whatsoever. It was basically written in auto-pilot with all the "juicy" bits aka rape and violence against women on. Nothing really interesting to see. Even Myranda had to die to service the story of another man.

Ps. Myranda was the whore and had to die, and Sansa was the Madonna that had to he saved. There's no other way going around this.

She even wore her mother's clothes when she wanted to die. That's the part that puzzles me. On the one hand, they went for her as LF's whore. On the other hand, they hinted at her as Rickon's madonna. I don't know which will win out. I suspect the LF's whore storyline. That's what they've invested the most time with. I KNOW WHAT YOU WANT (who cares what I want) vs. Mommy to Rickon? Both are tempting, no doubt, but my bet is on the former. In the end, madonna and whore will collide, and maybe if we are lucky, she will implode. Then again, they aren't done messing with her yet...

[Le Cygne]

37 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

What ? Women having a sexuality of their own ? Have you lost your mind ?

And even then, it would be all for nothing. Sandor was too busy having buddy-cop comedy trip, and Jaime too busy with the twincest.

I know. Sansa and Brienne having desires of their own. And better yet, acting upon them. The horror.

The sad thing is, I think they are still going there with their beastly men they want, because of all the setup (as bad as it was, they did set it up). It could be they just toss it aside, but I have a feeling they will go there, after they are done messing with them, and after we have given up caring.

[Tijgy]

http://turtle-paced.tumblr.com/post/138980084052/got-re-watch-fine-toothed-comb-edition

Enjoy reading - I did not yet read it myself 

[Tijgy]

And the reading was fun  and some very good parts (actually everything was good so I advice to read it entirely) but... here are the most interesting parts IMO

Quote

“Then fight…but for the living, not the dead” (Catelyn V) becomes “You can’t avenge [Renly] if you’re dead.” Book!Catelyn’s whole point in that chat with Brienne is that throwing her life away on behalf of a corpse is useless. Show!Catelyn just doesn’t think Brienne should die right now for vengeance. The re-watch really does make it clear that the philosophical obsession with revenge has been there for quite some time, lacking any nuance such as good people heading down slippery slopes, those rare parties who would rather forgo vengeance entirely, or, as we see happen due to book!Catelyn’s advice to Brienne, those who channel their grief into something a lot more productive than ”you killed my crush, prepare to die.”

Oh, ThugBrienne obsessed with killing Stannis instead of saving Sansa. Yeah, Cat could possibly not promote peace and the end of vengeance (which actually resulted in a big fight between Cat and Robb). Now I think of fighting for the living and not the dead is something very important to Cat: it is why she advocates for peace even if her enemies killed Ned off (which she actually never is allowed to say on screen if I don't forget; it is why she choses to free Jaime to get her daughters which puts her in opposite of Karstark who wants to kill Jaime for his dead sons; the conflict with her son who is fighting to avenge his father (which is actually a concretization of the North remembers) while she again wants her daughters, want to protect her son's life and have peace; ... and possible some other examples. 

In the series she just want some vengeance IIRC ... they probably wanted it to make themself easier, ignore the real Cat and have a sort of LSH already so they would not have to revive Cat so there would be a LSH. 

Quote

Also, can I express my discomfort with the fact that the writers are trying to make Tyrion more sympathetic by muting his reaction to the discrimination and the abuse he suffers? Book!Tyrion gets angry, a more than fair and very common reaction. He also embraces patriarchal and classist values as a means of making a place for himself amongst the ableism. It’s complicated, and it’s meant to make the reader uncomfortable as well, in many places. The show’s gone mostly for “people say mean things to Tyrion, which makes him sad.” Not so far off the process of adapting Cersei, come to think of it. There’s a layer or two of irony there. And like with Cersei and Renly, and ultimately Catelyn as well, I still think the underlying problem is storytelling timidity. 

Oh Saint Tyrion and Carol. We love them so much  /sarcasm 

Quote

Oh, and Arya shows off some knowledge of heraldry. The very subject she’s always said she’s hopeless at and Sansa knows far more about. Arya doesn’t know the sigil of the Manderlys or the Karstarks or even the Cerwyns who live practically next door to Winterfell. (She fails to identify all these sigils during her book stay at Harrenhal, in a situation where knowledge of heraldry would have been extremely useful. So useful, in fact, it could have broken Arya’s plot.) Once again it could not be clearer that the showrunners are playing favourites.

And at the same time ... I might be wrong but are they not ignoring Sansa's intelligence in it? At least in episode 01.02 they have neglected to give Sansa the opportunity to show her knowledge on Renly, Barristan Selmy, ... 

(BTW Her little brother Bran is actually quite similar to Sansa in that. He is able to recognize the sigil of the Liddle in the road, he also know entirely where the clans all live, he can knows all the castles of the NW (which made his uncle Ben very proud)  And they are both also very similar in the fact Bran knows his stories and Sansa her songs (while Arya is at least also bad in knowing the songs. This made me actually thinking what would happen if Bran and Sansa ever participated in a quiz: the Heraldry and Culture of Westeros. As a team they would completely rock that thing: Bran on Northern culture, heraldry and stories of knights and Sansa more the Southern things and love songs. Go Sansa! Go Bran! 

(btw I do think Sansa probably knows a lot about the northern heraldry too but I am not entirely sure about Bran's knowledge of Southern heraldry. He only recognized the Freys in Meera's story so maybe Luwin's lessons did not yet cover that. Luwin might have begun met teaching Bran about the North. So I should divide the tasks between my two favorite living Stark kids  )

But yeah; just ignore this amazing part of Sansa and give it to Arya and ignore the whole storyline of Bran as "Prince of Winterfell" and the meeting of some Northern Lords who would become important later (or at least in the books).

Quote

No questions about how she got from Barrowton to Harrenhal? No concerns about whether she’s doing a bit of spying on the side? And, of course, Arya’s showing no fear. She’s nothing like a mouse. As far as the showrunners are concerned, Arya is “badass,” and being badass means not being afraid, not being near paralysed by self-doubt, not getting angry at her own helplessness against armed adults, and most especially not suffering from feelings of inferiority for not performing femininity as Westeros defines it. Book!Arya is awesome because she feels all those things and carries on in spite of that. Like Jon Snow, Arya’s been made much less complex to fit in with an expected trope - while Jon Snow is A Hero™, Arya is now a Plucky Tomboy. And unlike the books, we’re not going to be seeing any sort of subversion or discussion of the trope.

(...)

“Anyone can be killed.” While staring right at Tywin no less. The dialogue crackles, the acting performances are great, but there’s nevertheless a certain lack of overarching logic and a fair amount of character butchery going on. Aaaaaaargh,Game of Thrones.

 

[Le Cygne]

That's really sad. In the books, Brienne's first kill was built up to beautifully. She dreams about Jaime (naturally). And remembers her master at arms trying to toughen her up, getting her to kill the piglet, and she cried. So she gets out Oathkeeper, her magic sword. She's on a mission to do something good, to find Jaime's honor, as she puts it. And she's trying to be brave. And she kills the men who tried to rape her, and cut off Jaime's hand. For Jaime, she says. And she cries.

In the show, she kills the men who were guarding Renly (the men Loras killed in the books).

So they blew the significance of her first kill, the drama building up to that, as well as who she killed, and who she killed for, Jaime.

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

Tijgy: good read.

Gotta confess, I enjoyed the Arya
/Tywin interactions (I hadn't read yet ACOK), but in retrospective, they're much more unrealistic than the Canon with Roose. She got along fine with Roose as long as his general emotional flatness permitted him, but the moment he felt he had to remind "Nan" that she was worthless scum to him, he did. Tywin would and should've done the same... With no Lorch or Gregor involved if she was lucky.

 

 

[LongRider]

7 hours ago, Tijgy said:

(This is hundred times better than teenCella and TeenTrys

Awww, that one gave warm fuzzies......nice to hear Rory's voice too.  

>sigh<

[Le Cygne]

48 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Awww, that one gave warm fuzzies......nice to hear Rory's voice too.  

>sigh<

That was very nicely done. I like that they added some of the season 4 stuff, they were definitely hinting, right down to the Disney Beast scene (with the soup). Before all Winterhell broke loose.

[HairGrowsBack]

Re. the Cat/Brienne's interactions, other than the fact that they don't get Brienne (you've got that covered) and are all about vengeance, they also make Cat an asshole : nah Bri, don't die avenging your King, die fighting for my son !

So much for the surrogate mother figure...

[Toth]

And it's much worse if you believe that they don't do those character changes because they have specific characterizations in mind. I think they change all those lines because they honestly thinking they sound more 'badass' this way. They just don't care about how the characters come across through this.

[Tijgy]

3 hours ago, Toth said:

And it's much worse if you believe that they don't do those character changes because they have specific characterizations in mind. I think they change all those lines because they honestly thinking they sound more 'badass' this way. They just don't care about how the characters come across through this.

Everyone has to be a badass! 

I must admit that in the books there are lot of badasses but a lot of them are minor characters or characters they did not want to include like the Wull, Wyman, ... 

You can actually find example in what they did with the Blackfish. Yeah, he is a jerk towards Jaime and can be somewhat strict with his nephew. 

However he was the one insisted that Edmure had to hear his own father also missed to put the boat on fire (and hereby BF is ignoring the fact that was on the first try and Hoster did it on the second one) ... Cat is here the more strict towards her brother (and only in her mind) while Brynden is really insisting more to comfort his nephew. 

In the show BF is the one who hits Karstark. Karstark is indeed hit by someone in the books but he is hit by the Greatjon. But they probably thought: "Haha, someone hits the child murderer. We also need someone to hit him." "In the books it was done by the Greatjon. Where is he actually?" (intern start a story about the actor?)* "But who then? Edmure?" "No, it cannot be Edmure. Edmure is a wussy." "Let chose the Blackfish. He is also a badass". 

*What was the actual story why they excluded the Greatjon? Did they just not want Robb to have a very loyal bannerman? I remember something a problem about the actor? But then that is just really a lazy excuse because they are recasting people who don't even need to be recasted (Aimee). 

To be short; they are destroyed some characters because they want to have badass moments in the show; the problem is that some of those badass moment come from minor characters who do not exist in the show; so they give them to other characters which actually destroy their characterization. Or that is at least my opinion. 

 

9 hours ago, Titties and Dragons said:

Tijgy: good read.

Gotta confess, I enjoyed the Arya
/Tywin interactions (I hadn't read yet ACOK), but in retrospective, they're much more unrealistic than the Canon with Roose. She got along fine with Roose as long as his general emotional flatness permitted him, but the moment he felt he had to remind "Nan" that she was worthless scum to him, he did. Tywin would and should've done the same... With no Lorch or Gregor involved if she was lucky.

It is really their thing: letting characters meet while they do not meet (yet) in the books.

You have Arya and Tywin, Arya and Brienne, Brienne and Sansa I (the wedding feast); Brienne and Sansa II (the inn); Brienne and Sansa III (I also counted the candle); Brienne and Stannis; Sansa and Theon; Sansa and Ramsay; Sansa and Roose; Jaime and Joffrey; Jaime and Myrcella; Jaime and Bronn; Tyrion and Dany; Tyrion and Varys - Essos Edition I (Illyrio's palace without any Illyrio; did they actually even mentioned him by name?); Tyrion and Varys - Essos Edition II (fucking Meereen ); Tyrion and the dwarf cock merchant; Bran and Jon - Behind the Wall Edition; Arya and Jaqen/Kindly Man (real fanservice); Jaime and Ellaria (you can never chose the one you love) and this list is probably not complete (and most of them are season 4/5)

This is all pure fanfic. They just want to know what would happen if those characters meet. And while some of them are just idiotic, it does hurt the characterization. 

Brienne has at least four meetings with the Stark girls (or chances to meet/help them). And every fucking time she fails in saving them. During the last chance she actually really chose to ignore her vow to Cat. Actually they are lucky they did not include LSH. Because who would actually think LSH is completely wrong in judging Brienne when she did indeed failed her duty. LSH has any right to be angry at her and nobody of the watchers would think: "O no, it is so unfair." (Or I would at least not think that.)

And Jaime is just a loser who every time he wants to protect his kids fails in protecting them.  Sigh

[Le Cygne]

It's not that main characters are doing badass things in the show that's the problem. They did badass things in the books, too. It's that badassery is all the showrunners see. They take away what gives the characters dimension.

It's the difference between checking a plot point off on a list, and TELLING A STORY.

Brienne was a badass in the books at the time of her first kill, and Ser Hyle even boasted of her fighting skills. That's fine. What the show doesn't do is add the dimension to those scenes. All the things I said above, there was the build up, and the payoff that was a key part of her story, that they left out, that she has a tender heart, and this was a big moment for her, and shows us how much she suffered at the hands of these men, and the depth of her feelings for Jaime. And they tossed that aside, all so she could kill Renly's protectors, which is more nothing is just nothing.

They did the same thing with the fight with the Hound, they stripped the meaning of his last fight from him, and the fight above for her. Suddenly they are in a nothing is just nothing fight about nothing, which the showrunners themselves described that way, that you don't want either of them to defeat the other, and isn't that way cool? No, it's not.

Sandor was a badass in his last fight. But in the books he's fighting his brother's men, and losing it when he hears the news about Sansa. This shows his priorities have changed, he's not sobbing while dying because he didn't kill his brother, but because he left Sansa alone (at the same time, she's thinking the same thing, he left me). The fight leads to his dying moments, his heart is broken about what happened to Sansa, which shows how much he cares. And Arya defends him in the fight, and calls him Sandor, which shows her feelings about him have changed, too.

They lose so much, and for no reason. They literally lose big dramatic moments, that tell the stories of these characters in big ways, when they just focus on badassery.

There's also a sense of telling stories in parallel that they just toss aside...

[Le Cygne]

1 hour ago, Tijgy said:

Brienne has at least four meetings with the Stark girls (or chances to meet/help them). And every fucking time she fails in saving them. During the last chance she actually really chose to ignore her vow to Cat. Actually they are lucky they did not include LSH. Because who would actually think LSH is completely wrong in judging Brienne when she did indeed failed her duty. LSH has any right to be angry at her and nobody of the watchers would think: "O no, it is so unfair." (Or I would at least not think that.)

Yeah, they aren't doing the characters any favors. And that's a problem, because there has to be someone to root for. It's clear the showrunners are rooting for St. Tyrion. But that's not enough. There's Jon as nice guy, as dull and dim as they portray him, but then they killed him off, because... Olly. It's actually fine for you to like characters, even if they are messed up. But you have to stop cutting those moments that make you care about them.

[The Northern Scholar]

21 hours ago, Tijgy said:

http://turtle-paced.tumblr.com/post/138980084052/got-re-watch-fine-toothed-comb-edition

Enjoy reading - I did not yet read it myself 

This entire series of episodes reviews is just a pleasure to read. Not that I don't enjoy the snark-laden commentary here, but I find these reviews always make me think more deeply about the text. Nothing is better than gaining a better appreciation for the books while simultaneously tearing down the show!

12 hours ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Re. the Cat/Brienne's interactions, other than the fact that they don't get Brienne (you've got that covered) and are all about vengeance, they also make Cat an asshole : nah Bri, don't die avenging your King, die fighting for my son !

So much for the surrogate mother figure...

It definitely fits with the show's obsession with vengeance/revenge. I suppose we could praise D&D for their foreshadowing of Brienne's actions when she abandons Sansa in order to go pass judgment on Stannis.

[HairGrowsBack]

16 minutes ago, The Northern Scholar said:

 

It definitely fits with the show's obsession with vengeance/revenge. I suppose we could praise D&D for their foreshadowing of Brienne's actions when she abandons Sansa in order to go pass judgment on Stannis.

Well, in that case they should've gone all the way and name the sword Oathbreaker : that's all Brienne and Jaime are doing on the show.

Too bad they didn't keep the actual revenge/justice of Brienne's arc, where she avenges Jaime (and herself) by cutting one of the Brave Companions member's hand off and killing the others. But then, she experienced inner turmoil doing it so, nah.

[Le Cygne]

3 hours ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Well, in that case they should've gone all the way and name the sword Oathbreaker : that's all Brienne and Jaime are doing on the show.

Too bad they didn't keep the actual revenge/justice of Brienne's arc, where she avenges Jaime (and herself) by cutting one of the Brave Companions member's hand off and killing the others. But then, she experienced inner turmoil doing it so, nah.

She's such a different character, she was torn up about Nimble Dick. That was woven into the narrative, her noticing this poor guy who felt such belonging to a place that sadly forgot him, and when he was killed, she said this is his place. Can you even for a moment imagine Brienne the Brute noticing he was shivering in the cold (his vulnerability)? That's really sad that they wiped this wonderful character out completely, Brienne is a great loss to the story.

[Ruhail]

6 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

She's such a different character, she was torn up about Nimble Dick. That was woven into the narrative, her noticing this poor guy who felt such belonging to a place that sadly forgot him, and when he was killed, she said this is his place. Can you even for a moment imagine Brienne the Brute noticing he was shivering in the cold (his vulnerability)? That's really sad that they wiped this wonderful character out completely, she's a great loss to the story.

 

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Brienne is probably my 2nd favorite female character next to Arya. One of the few truly noble people in story. Of course D&D hates nobility, so to make her "cool" and "badass" they turned her into an "violent, cold blooded and rude person who's hell bent on revenge and have no interest in honor or vows."  

[A Ghost of Someone]

13 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Brienne is probably my 2nd favorite female character next to Arya. One of the few truly noble people in story. Of course D&D hates nobility, so to make her "cool" and "badass" they turned her into an "violent, cold blooded and rude person who's hell bent on revenge and have no interest in honor or vows."  

They like the Lannisters with the only exception being Jaime whom they call a monster.