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Arthur+Lyanna=Jon


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12 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

 Although I do think that Lyanna had a child, I'm far from certain that this was the ultimate cause of her death.

That really gives another angle to the whole thing with Jon's birth date, doesn't it? As well as Dany's. The direwolf we saw in the first chapter had pups but she didn't die in this kind of "bed of blood".

 

12 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

This is wonderful! I've been trying to figure this out for a while.  The problem being that neither Ashara not Lyanna had a sister of the correct age that we know about.  I'd thrown both Elia and Cersei around in my mind but couldn't come up with the link for it.  You just did it for me.  Awesome job!

I think that if we're looking for the echo angles, we're somewhat hindered by the fact that George shows people who repeat the past of other people from their own Houses but he also echoes situations and characters without running parallels straight. In this instance, he wouldn't need Cat to fit her own role. He'll need "a" Cat. Elia might just fit the bill, although the situation is, once again, a little changed. For one, looks like Lysa was hard to notice with Cat around while Ashara was quite noticeable. Still, we don't know how she felt about the situation. She might have perceived herself as being "wronged" and Elia getting the lion share of attention, who knows.

I think Cersei doesn't fit because despite Lysa being warped and all now, I think she once loved Cat even if she felt inferior and jealous and I have a hard time seeing Cersei loving anyone. Feeling inferior and jealous - yes but not feeling love.

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On February 20, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Anath said:

If we have a Lysa connection in Ashara and a man, it would be either Cat or Elia, depending on the man in question. If we're talking echoes, I don't think Cat would be Cat. Elia, though... In Arianne's good relations with the highborn Dornish people from her own generation, could we see an echo of Elia's own youth? Is it possible that the Water Gardens turned Elia and Ashara into sisters, kind of, with Arthur being "brother" to both? Later, he entered the part of "her" champion by punishing the Brotherhood that had taken her jewels and perhaps a kiss. And if Rhaegar and Ashara did have a thing later, it'll be Rhaegar in Baelish' role but to Ashara this time. Who knows, perhaps she made a go at him, suggesting that she could be the mother of the third head? It's hard to tell. But Ashara is younger than Elia, just like Lysa is younger than Cat. She's also considered more beautiful than Elia, just like Lysa was considered more beautiful than Cat. Barristan thinks Elia was interesting, just like Jaime thinks Cat was (compared to Lysa). Could Elia have taken the "Petyr" in this case, leaving Ashara with nothing but other means to get him in any way she could?

I'm liking this very much. Would make sense of Barristan's statements re: Ashara and Elia (not just having them be general world-building--which they could be, but I doubt it). 

Dany's vision in the House of the Undying, as has been discussed before, where Rhaegar turns as if looking at her, saying "there must be one more,"--others before me have posited that Dany is the third child of Rhaegar. Which would fit with the vision. And Ashara as providing that child, but being "rejected" for the one Rhaegar cares more for--as you said upthread, she could feel insulted. 

Cat describes Lysa as a gentle, fragile girl. Barristan's description of Ashara has her a "fair lady" who is "mad with grief." Fragile. And Lysa is fragile. And a bit mad with grief. But also--violent and devious. Could Ashara's anguish drive her to the same?

I'm also having my brain push me into the moment where Ned wants to weep over Cersei's tale of her wedding night. Edric Dayne gets very quiet over the tale of Ashara. If Ned can feel pity for Cersei's plight, I could imagine Ashara's family feeling pity for her, and Ned's doing the same, even if she was a bit "mad." This is all highly speculative on my part, but I could see it.

On February 20, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Anath said:

Yes, to all of this. And perhaps she was forced not to miscarry her baby but simply have it brought up like her own sibling? Perhaps she was delusional that she could pull it off somehow?

Yes--like Hoster was delusional to think he could "get rid of" Lysa's child and have it all "go away."

On February 20, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Anath said:

He saw his father trying to force Lyanna into who he wanted her to be. Looks like it didn't work out all this great. Better do some damage control. It's interesting that he finds Arya a teacher who is all about making her think and obey first - making her want to think and obey, even if that meant getting a constellation of scratches, courtesy of the palace cats.

True--he does teach Arya (or try to) discipline instead of angry lashing out. Self-control. We know Brandon lacked some of those qualities. Makes sense Lyanna might as well.

On February 20, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Anath said:

As weird as it sounds, in this scenario Rhaegar would be Lyanna's Tyrion. Everyone thought they were together (with the important exception of JonCon who doesn't think about Lyanna at all and perhaps the equally important exception of Howland Reed who implies that Lyanna wasn't as much into Rhaegar as people suggested), just like everyone thinks Sansa and Tyrion are truly "together", husband and wife. Robb and Cat even take measures to prevent the possible dire consequences of this union, just like Brandon tried to do with Lyanna. Tyrion protects her, just like we theorize Rhaegar did Lyanna.

:agree:

I've had this in my head for a bit (which means someone else might have brought it up and I've forgotten). But yes--the studious child, whose father is less than pleased with him (though for different reasons) and who is fascinated by dragons--yes, Tyrion echoes Rhaegar at times. And in that scenario, Jaime and Tyrion would be taking different parts of Rhaegar's role. Just as Jaime and Brienne are taking parts of Arthur's hypothetical role in the scenario. 

On February 20, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Anath said:

Indeed

:cheers:

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15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I'm liking this very much. Would make sense of Barristan's statements re: Ashara and Elia (not just having them be general world-building--which they could be, but I doubt it). 

It would make sense indeed. Plus, the circumstances in which Barristan and Jaime make their assessment about Ashara and Lysa respectively are quite specific. Union-related. Barristan is infatuated with Ashara, aka he wants to be with her but those inconvenient oaths are in the way; Jaime isn't infatuated with Lysa but when he meets her and Cat, his father wants him to be with Lysa. Not a parallel but not this different anyway.

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Dany's vision in the House of the Undying, as has been discussed before, where Rhaegar turns as if looking at her, saying "there must be one more,"--others before me have posited that Dany is the third child of Rhaegar. Which would fit with the vision. And Ashara as providing that child, but being "rejected" for the one Rhaegar cares more for--as you said upthread, she could feel insulted. 

If Ashara was the one supposed to provide the child, the whole Tower of Joy scene takes another meaning. The tower is located in the Prince's Pass. In this case, the three KG would not be providing a last stand before a place where the attackers could just step over their dead bodies, enter the tower and take the people hidden there anyway. They would be guards indeed, choosing a decent (strategy-wise) place from where they could mount their defence, in the absence of an army of their own. They might have even seen from the pass that the stupid Stark was coming not with an army but six men and decided that they could take them down right there, choosing not to, say, shoot them from afar but engage them directly. Who knows, they might have drunk their own koolaid, constantly being showered with praise and whatnot. But in this case, they would be the first line of defence for Ashara and her child who were in a place where they could leave easily by sea, just like Viserys and Dany did. In fact, if Dany is Ashara's, that's likely what she did.

All of which isn't to say that there was a great romance at all. It might have been all business. Or business to Rhaegar and "in love with Prince Charming" for Ashara which could have driven her mad after his death. But she fits the Lysa theme even without love. Certainly enough reasons to push her into madness, even if ambition or loyalty were the thing that initially moved her. People change their mind about situations when actually in them every day. They bite more than they could chew. Ashara's case might be that. Or she might echo Lysa in the love part as well. Perhaps she thought Rhaegar came to love her after they were together, in a Lysa-like fashion, only to be confronted with a crown of blue roses going to another, an insult ironically different from the one Barristan thinks she received? Perhaps she thought herself lovelier than Elia, again young Lysa-like (and also quite realistic, per all the characters), and was baffled when/if Rhaegar's feelings for his wife didn't change?

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

'm also having my brain push me into the moment where Ned wants to weep over Cersei's tale of her wedding night. Edric Dayne gets very quiet over the tale of Ashara.

I don't think Edric was told the ugly truth, whatever the details were. He looks like a decent and sensitive kid. I think it's more like the grief Ashara's fate caused his family, rather than pitying someone who went mad. But again, Howland Reed has nothing but admiration and perhaps a little infatuation with Ashara (he did memorized the men she danced with, after all) and I have a trouble seeing the man who took Arthur Dayne down without hesitation not giving a hint about something "off" with Ashara. Usually, when someone goes mad and commits a terrible act as a result, people tend to overthink their prior interactions and find signs of madness (existing or imagined ones) because they expect to. Ashara might have been not mad but indeed "mad with grief", aka depressed. Not violent but dangerous anyway. Could she have decided to take her own life away and Lyanna tried to stop her, again without thinking because wolf-blood?

 

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--like Hoster was delusional to think he could "get rid of" Lysa's child and have it all "go away."

And Hoster was a man with experience. What experience did Ashara have? She was just a young girl, not long at court, as Barristan had. She had likely led a life where things had usually gone her way.

 

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7 hours ago, Anath said:

It would make sense indeed. Plus, the circumstances in which Barristan and Jaime make their assessment about Ashara and Lysa respectively are quite specific. Union-related. Barristan is infatuated with Ashara, aka he wants to be with her but those inconvenient oaths are in the way; Jaime isn't infatuated with Lysa but when he meets her and Cat, his father wants him to be with Lysa. Not a parallel but not this different anyway.

Agreed--though I admit I missed the Barristan and Jaime angle.

Also, if this holds: Barristan is helping the woman who looks like Ashara's daughter (and might be so). While Jaime is helping Cat's known daughter. And both men are trying to make up for past failings as knights.

7 hours ago, Anath said:

If Ashara was the one supposed to provide the child, the whole Tower of Joy scene takes another meaning. The tower is located in the Prince's Pass. In this case, the three KG would not be providing a last stand before a place where the attackers could just step over their dead bodies, enter the tower and take the people hidden there anyway. They would be guards indeed, choosing a decent (strategy-wise) place from where they could mount their defence, in the absence of an army of their own. They might have even seen from the pass that the stupid Stark was coming not with an army but six men and decided that they could take them down right there, choosing not to, say, shoot them from afar but engage them directly. Who knows, they might have drunk their own koolaid, constantly being showered with praise and whatnot. But in this case, they would be the first line of defence for Ashara and her child who were in a place where they could leave easily by sea, just like Viserys and Dany did. In fact, if Dany is Ashara's, that's likely what she did.

Very possible. 

But with the tower scene, I keep coming back to what @Black Crow pointed out a while back--that these guys mention no Targaryen or royal but Aerys. If they've drunk the Rhaegar koolaid, they are doing a good job not mentioning it.

But the idea of finding out that the Stark is coming and going out to meet him--that holds, even if they are still Aerys' kingsguard. Rather like Drogo's bloodriders are his, even as he's dying. The bloodriders know Drogo's dying. They aren't trying to save his life. They aren't trying to save his child--Dany's told her child will probably be killed. But they are fighting to stop an abomination--to preserve honor and dignity and right.

The fight at the tower--also 7 against 3. A fight with the 3 remaining Kingsguard of a dead king--seems like the echo with the tent ritual and the intent of Drogo's bloodriders might be a clue as to what the 3 KG at the tower are about.

Which works just fine if Ashara is the mother of Rhaegar's last child.

7 hours ago, Anath said:

All of which isn't to say that there was a great romance at all. It might have been all business. Or business to Rhaegar and "in love with Prince Charming" for Ashara which could have driven her mad after his death. But she fits the Lysa theme even without love. Certainly enough reasons to push her into madness, even if ambition or loyalty were the thing that initially moved her. People change their mind about situations when actually in them every day. They bite more than they could chew. Ashara's case might be that. Or she might echo Lysa in the love part as well. Perhaps she thought Rhaegar came to love her after they were together, in a Lysa-like fashion, only to be confronted with a crown of blue roses going to another, an insult ironically different from the one Barristan thinks she received? Perhaps she thought herself lovelier than Elia, again young Lysa-like (and also quite realistic, per all the characters), and was baffled when/if Rhaegar's feelings for his wife didn't change?

Yes--I'm thinking the bolded might be more likely. I'm trying to come up with a parallel or echo in the novels for a woman  taken as second wife or paramour who has a good time of it--and am coming up with nothing. If I'm missing the obvious, feel free to mock me.

But the woman who's a stand-in--like poor Jeyne Poole. Or the woman trying to prove her love to a lost love (did Ashara love Rhaegar before he married Elia???), like Lysa. Those ideas Martin's given us models of. And, given how he brings her death in one way or another in every novel, and has Lysa die in a similar way, seems like the bolded has real potential for telling us what might have been up with Ashara.

7 hours ago, Anath said:

I don't think Edric was told the ugly truth, whatever the details were. He looks like a decent and sensitive kid. I think it's more like the grief Ashara's fate caused his family, rather than pitying someone who went mad.

Agreed. He speaks low and very tactfully. Seems like he's been taught this is a sad story. All the backstory? Not so much. Plus, we have the potential echo with the Stark kids: Ned didn't even tell Cat the details of Brandon's death. The kids don't seems to know, either. Seems like the Daynes might have done the same with Edric re: his aunt's death.

7 hours ago, Anath said:

But again, Howland Reed has nothing but admiration and perhaps a little infatuation with Ashara (he did memorized the men she danced with, after all) and I have a trouble seeing the man who took Arthur Dayne down without hesitation not giving a hint about something "off" with Ashara. Usually, when someone goes mad and commits a terrible act as a result, people tend to overthink their prior interactions and find signs of madness (existing or imagined ones) because they expect to. Ashara might have been not mad but indeed "mad with grief", aka depressed. Not violent but dangerous anyway. Could she have decided to take her own life away and Lyanna tried to stop her, again without thinking because wolf-blood?

Interesting--the fight at the moon door--Sansa and Lysa both nearly go over. The idea that Ashara was trying to kill herself and Lyanna tried to stop her would work.

And would fit with Sansa's reaction to thinking about killing herself. Yes, she thinks it would end her misery and make everyone sorry for how she was mistreated. But the thought of throwing herself off the tower--Sansa just can't do it. I'm guessing Lyanna couldn't either--and would try to stop someone who was that far gone. Arya gives water to the caged prisoners, after all.

7 hours ago, Anath said:

And Hoster was a man with experience. What experience did Ashara have? She was just a young girl, not long at court, as Barristan had. She had likely led a life where things had usually gone her way.

Like Sansa? I'm wondering again if she'd thought she might be the one to marry Rhaegar--ancient family, her brother is Rhaegar's best buddy. And then Elia is chosen instead. By the time Sansa is "thrown over" for Margaery, she's had enough experience to be VERY happy about that. Perhaps Ashara hadn't learned that NOT being in the royal family was the better option.

This is all highly speculative, but it does rather fit with the groundwork Martin's laid down. . . 

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On 2/23/2016 at 7:27 AM, Anath said:

That really gives another angle to the whole thing with Jon's birth date, doesn't it? As well as Dany's. The direwolf we saw in the first chapter had pups but she didn't die in this kind of "bed of blood".

:agree:

 

On 2/23/2016 at 7:27 AM, Anath said:

that if we're looking for the echo angles, we're somewhat hindered by the fact that George shows people who repeat the past of other people from their own Houses but he also echoes situations and characters without running parallels straight. In this instance, he wouldn't need Cat to fit her own role. He'll need "a" Cat. Elia might just fit the bill, although the situation is, once again, a little changed. For one, looks like Lysa was hard to notice with Cat around while Ashara was quite noticeable. Still, we don't know how she felt about the situation. She might have perceived herself as being "wronged" and Elia getting the lion share of attention, who knows.

When I originally looked at this, my gut instinct was Elia, but I keep second guessing myself.  Littlefinger was my other challenge. Originally I was seeing him as either a Rhaegar or Arthur stand in, but at several points he almost seems to be an inverse of Ned.  As for Ashara, I would imagine that in her mind it might have been difficult to compete with Elia, a princess in her own right and married to the Crown Prince. 

 

On 2/23/2016 at 7:27 AM, Anath said:

think Cersei doesn't fit because despite Lysa being warped and all now, I think she once loved Cat even if she felt inferior and jealous and I have a hard time seeing Cersei loving anyone. Feeling inferior and jealous - yes but not feeling love.

But, again, as you said, these parallels never run completely parallel. ;) I think Cersei fits in somewhere, even if not in this scenario. All of these girls are of an age. 

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Also, if this holds: Barristan is helping the woman who looks like Ashara's daughter (and might be so). While Jaime is helping Cat's known daughter. And both men are trying to make up for past failings as knights.

9 hours ago, Anath said:

I really like this! :)

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

But with the tower scene, I keep coming back to what @Black Crow pointed out a while back--that these guys mention no Targaryen or royal but Aerys. If they've drunk the Rhaegar koolaid, they are doing a good job not mentioning it.

Although I agree with what you're saying, maybe it's a bit of both? Even if they thought that Rhaegar would make a better king, that doesn't mean that they would wish Aerys dead. They are still his Kingsguard and would not have supported Aerys's death even if they supported Rhaegar deposing him in an official manner. They might see protecting the heir that they are near as the best way to continue their duty to Aerys.

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

-I'm thinking the bolded might be more likely. I'm trying to come up with a parallel or echo in the novels for a woman  taken as second wife or paramour who has a good time of it--and am coming up with nothing. If I'm missing the obvious, feel free to mock me.

:agree: I'll try to keep an eye out. Finally got all the way back through GoT. 

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Interesting--the fight at the moon door--Sansa and Lysa both nearly go over. The idea that Ashara was trying to kill herself and Lyanna tried to stop her would work.

And would fit with Sansa's reaction to thinking about killing herself. Yes, she thinks it would end her misery and make everyone sorry for how she was mistreated. But the thought of throwing herself off the tower--Sansa just can't do it. I'm guessing Lyanna couldn't either--and would try to stop someone who was that far gone. Arya gives water to the caged prisoners, after all.

I don't know. It's certainly possible. All of the historical stories seem to say that the maiden killed themselves. Yet, the one time that we see the tale actually unfold in real time this wasn't the case. And Sansa didn't actually jump either. I'm not going as far as saying that Ashara was pushed on purpose, but I do think that she was pushed. And I'm sticking with that. :P

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

By the time Sansa is "thrown over" for Margaery, she's had enough experience to be VERY happy about that. Perhaps Ashara hadn't learned that NOT being in the royal family was the better option.

Which makes me wonder, was Elia "thrown over" for Ashara? And also, was Elia happy about it?

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13 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Also, if this holds: Barristan is helping the woman who looks like Ashara's daughter (and might be so). While Jaime is helping Cat's known daughter. And both men are trying to make up for past failings as knights.

Now, this is something that I missed!

13 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But with the tower scene, I keep coming back to what @Black Crow pointed out a while back--that these guys mention no Targaryen or royal but Aerys. If they've drunk the Rhaegar koolaid, they are doing a good job not mentioning it.

Yeah, there is that. But perhaps they had come up with a way to reconcile their oaths to Aerys with their presumed (by us readers) loyalty to Rhaegar. They might have seen removing Aerys from power as a necessary move to protect him from himself. And we don't know what Rhaegar's plan was. It might have not included actually doing away with Aerys but removing him from his power - not his title. This way, he'd be still sitting the Iron Throne but he'd be a king in all but name. Safer for people, safer for Aerys himself. Win-win. Perhaps.

13 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

The fight at the tower--also 7 against 3. A fight with the 3 remaining Kingsguard of a dead king--seems like the echo with the tent ritual and the intent of Drogo's bloodriders might be a clue as to what the 3 KG at the tower are about.

Could be. But there is a marked difference in one important respect: Drogo's bloodriders are his. KG is the king's. We've seen KGs choosing different rulers when being put in the position to choose. It's just that normally, the king they swear allegiance to is the same man who keeps the IT to the day of his death. But no one thinks less of Barristan for choosing Robert over Viserys (save for Dany, initially, that's it.) Or it could be a combination of both, who knows.

13 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--I'm thinking the bolded might be more likely. I'm trying to come up with a parallel or echo in the novels for a woman  taken as second wife or paramour who has a good time of it--and am coming up with nothing. If I'm missing the obvious, feel free to mock me.

Nothing for me as well. Even Lysa didn't truly realize what she was getting into by getting into Bael-ish's bed, IMO.

13 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But the woman who's a stand-in--like poor Jeyne Poole. Or the woman trying to prove her love to a lost love (did Ashara love Rhaegar before he married Elia???), like Lysa. Those ideas Martin's given us models of. And, given how he brings her death in one way or another in every novel, and has Lysa die in a similar way, seems like the bolded has real potential for telling us what might have been up with Ashara.

In this case, Jane Poole hits home closer to me than Lysa at the end of her life. Jane is young, just like Lysa was young when it all began. When it ended, she'd already had a lifetime of disappointments to turn her into the violent madwoman we see. It wasn't just because of her lost love and lost child. Young Lysa is a better parallel for me. Of course, if Ashara turns out to be Septa Lemore, the game might change. Even the changes in her appearance (Tyrion doesn't find her this stunning, just attractive) might be echoed in Lysa's loss of looks. But in the beginning when they were all young as Jane Poole is now? I can't really draw a parallel. Ashara presumably died before life hit her as harshly as it did Lysa.

13 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed. He speaks low and very tactfully. Seems like he's been taught this is a sad story. All the backstory? Not so much. Plus, we have the potential echo with the Stark kids: Ned didn't even tell Cat the details of Brandon's death. The kids don't seems to know, either. Seems like the Daynes might have done the same with Edric re: his aunt's death.

I agree.

13 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Interesting--the fight at the moon door--Sansa and Lysa both nearly go over. The idea that Ashara was trying to kill herself and Lyanna tried to stop her would work.

And would fit with Sansa's reaction to thinking about killing herself. Yes, she thinks it would end her misery and make everyone sorry for how she was mistreated. But the thought of throwing herself off the tower--Sansa just can't do it. I'm guessing Lyanna couldn't either--and would try to stop someone who was that far gone. Arya gives water to the caged prisoners, after all.

Could be. And trying to stop someone from doing something, physically, could turn into a real fight in moments. That's a less likely version, I think, but a possible one.

13 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Like Sansa? I'm wondering again if she'd thought she might be the one to marry Rhaegar--ancient family, her brother is Rhaegar's best buddy. And then Elia is chosen instead. By the time Sansa is "thrown over" for Margaery, she's had enough experience to be VERY happy about that. Perhaps Ashara hadn't learned that NOT being in the royal family was the better option.

This is all highly speculative, but it does rather fit with the groundwork Martin's laid down. . . 

A head full of romantic dreams? Interesting. IMO, Ashara wasn't highborn enough for Rhaegar and she didn't have any dragon blood (that we know of) but she might have seen the situation differently. After all, Dyanna Dayne was deemed suitable for Maekar and it was her blood that eventually kept the Targaryens alive and kicking. She might have thought there could be a rinse and repeat. And she was presumably in good health, so she had no reason to think she wouldn't be as fecund as Dyanna which was quite needed at the moment.

On the other hand, she likely had some experience with the pressure put on Elia to give Rhaegar heirs no matter what. Such a thing could be off-putting or making herself think that she could have done better in Elia's place.

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12 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

When I originally looked at this, my gut instinct was Elia, but I keep second guessing myself.  Littlefinger was my other challenge. Originally I was seeing him as either a Rhaegar or Arthur stand in, but at several points he almost seems to be an inverse of Ned.  As for Ashara, I would imagine that in her mind it might have been difficult to compete with Elia, a princess in her own right and married to the Crown Prince.

Yeah, there is that. A good part of Joffrey's shine in Sansa's eyes was thanks to him being the crown prince, after all.

12 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

But, again, as you said, these parallels never run completely parallel. ;) I think Cersei fits in somewhere, even if not in this scenario. All of these girls are of an age. 

Yes but age is all that they have in common (that we know of). For all we know, Cersei and Ashara never met. And Cersei and Elia only had one visit to get to know each other (that we know of). We're talking about a sister role here, not someone who is just the right age, like a good deal of the population of Planetos. That demands some closeness.

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2 hours ago, Anath said:

Yeah, there is that. But perhaps they had come up with a way to reconcile their oaths to Aerys with their presumed (by us readers) loyalty to Rhaegar. They might have seen removing Aerys from power as a necessary move to protect him from himself. And we don't know what Rhaegar's plan was. It might have not included actually doing away with Aerys but removing him from his power - not his title. This way, he'd be still sitting the Iron Throne but he'd be a king in all but name. Safer for people, safer for Aerys himself. Win-win. Perhaps.

 

Nah, the loyalty to Aerys is unambiguous and unconditional. They are Aerys' men, not Rhaegar's.

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On February 26, 2016 at 7:33 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

I really like this! :)

:cheers:

On February 26, 2016 at 7:33 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Although I agree with what you're saying, maybe it's a bit of both? Even if they thought that Rhaegar would make a better king, that doesn't mean that they would wish Aerys dead. They are still his Kingsguard and would not have supported Aerys's death even if they supported Rhaegar deposing him in an official manner. They might see protecting the heir that they are near as the best way to continue their duty to Aerys.

This is absolutely possible.

One of the things that gives me pause, though, is how they characterize Darry as fleeing. Unless he's a horrible man who killed their dog, this is just off to characterize him as fleeing with the queen and the prince. If these guys are about protecting the next generation, why are they focusing on "fleeing" Aerys?

On February 26, 2016 at 7:33 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

I don't know. It's certainly possible. All of the historical stories seem to say that the maiden killed themselves. Yet, the one time that we see the tale actually unfold in real time this wasn't the case. And Sansa didn't actually jump either. I'm not going as far as saying that Ashara was pushed on purpose, but I do think that she was pushed. And I'm sticking with that. :P

The bolded is an EXCELLENT point. Granted, we don't yet know how much Martin is going to repeat. But he's repeated a lot so far. Yes.  . . the bolded is a very good point. Well done.

On February 26, 2016 at 7:33 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Which makes me wonder, was Elia "thrown over" for Ashara? And also, was Elia happy about it?

The only thing I can think of is Aerys' reaction to baby Rhaenys. I could see Elia wanting out of that, to just stay on Dragonstone with her children away from Mad Dad-in-Law.

Perhaps another echo might be Sansa and Tyrion's marriage--Sansa doesn't seem overly aware of Shae as Tyrion's mistress, though she does note that Shae has insolent eyes. But I doubt Sansa would have minded. Rhaegar and Elia are unlikely to have been as estranged as Sansa and Tyrion. But Sansa's trouble with Tyrion is largely his family. I'm thus wondering if Elia had similar problems. And if Shae is a twisted echo of Ashara. . . 

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On February 26, 2016 at 7:34 AM, Anath said:

Now, this is something that I missed!

:cheers:

On February 26, 2016 at 7:34 AM, Anath said:

Yeah, there is that. But perhaps they had come up with a way to reconcile their oaths to Aerys with their presumed (by us readers) loyalty to Rhaegar. They might have seen removing Aerys from power as a necessary move to protect him from himself. And we don't know what Rhaegar's plan was. It might have not included actually doing away with Aerys but removing him from his power - not his title. This way, he'd be still sitting the Iron Throne but he'd be a king in all but name. Safer for people, safer for Aerys himself. Win-win. Perhaps.

Maybe--the text has enough holes to make this possible.

But the text also has them agreeing with Ned's characterization of Darry as fleeing. Darry's with the queen and Viserys--so why is he "fleeing" in comparison to them? Really sounds like they are thinking Darry fled Aerys (who else is he fleeing?). Fled his post in King's Landing with the King. It's not rational and these guys acknowledge it by saying Darry's a good man. But they still say it. They are angry. 

I do think they still had loyalty to Rhaegar--wherever they were, wherever "far away" was, seems VERY likely they were there on Rhaegar's orders. But at the bitter end--this seems like they only bring up Aerys for a reason.

On February 26, 2016 at 10:05 AM, Black Crow said:

Nah, the loyalty to Aerys is unambiguous and unconditional. They are Aerys' men, not Rhaegar's.

This really does fit--especially since they are the ones whose faces "burn clear" while everyone else with Ned is a wraith.

On February 26, 2016 at 7:34 AM, Anath said:

Could be. But there is a marked difference in one important respect: Drogo's bloodriders are his. KG is the king's. We've seen KGs choosing different rulers when being put in the position to choose. It's just that normally, the king they swear allegiance to is the same man who keeps the IT to the day of his death. But no one thinks less of Barristan for choosing Robert over Viserys (save for Dany, initially, that's it.) Or it could be a combination of both, who knows.

Agreed. But the only text we have--they only talk of Aerys. Jaime's a "false brother"--false to whom? Aerys. The Usurper--they don't mention that he killed Rhaegar. Just that they would have killed The Usurper. And they say Darry fled. I've no idea what they'd say about Barristan. And I agree no one faults Barristan for sticking with his vows to the throne. But the little we have of these three seems more in line with the blood riders. And both fights are 7 against 3.

On February 26, 2016 at 7:34 AM, Anath said:

Nothing for me as well. Even Lysa didn't truly realize what she was getting into by getting into Bael-ish's bed, IMO.

Poor Lysa. :(I'd feel sorry for her--if she hadn't caused so much death and misery. 

But I did think of one paramour who was happy for a while--Shae. Sansa notes her eyes are insolent. But her ending is arguably worse than Ashara's or Lysa's--at least neither of them ended up in bed with Tywin.

But she does provide a potential echo--Tyrion and Sansa's marriage as maybe echoing some of Rhaegar and Elia's. Maybe.

On February 26, 2016 at 7:34 AM, Anath said:

In this case, Jane Poole hits home closer to me than Lysa at the end of her life. Jane is young, just like Lysa was young when it all began. When it ended, she'd already had a lifetime of disappointments to turn her into the violent madwoman we see. It wasn't just because of her lost love and lost child. Young Lysa is a better parallel for me. Of course, if Ashara turns out to be Septa Lemore, the game might change. Even the changes in her appearance (Tyrion doesn't find her this stunning, just attractive) might be echoed in Lysa's loss of looks. But in the beginning when they were all young as Jane Poole is now? I can't really draw a parallel. Ashara presumably died before life hit her as harshly as it did Lysa.

On the bolded (and the rest) I agree. But if Ashara went out the window, life might have hit her in some ways as hard as it hit Lysa.

I just thought of Barristan's memory of Ashara's dancing at Harrenhal. Same with Howland's. How she's lively and beautiful. Even Sansa notes how Lysa seems much younger and more beautiful while dancing at her wedding to Petyr--a wedding held at an unnamed tower (!!!!!). How the years fell off of Lysa.

So you're point that young Lysa is potentially the better parallel, yes, I san see that.

On February 26, 2016 at 7:34 AM, Anath said:

Could be. And trying to stop someone from doing something, physically, could turn into a real fight in moments. That's a less likely version, I think, but a possible one.

All fair. :cheers:

On February 26, 2016 at 7:34 AM, Anath said:

A head full of romantic dreams? Interesting. IMO, Ashara wasn't highborn enough for Rhaegar and she didn't have any dragon blood (that we know of) but she might have seen the situation differently. After all, Dyanna Dayne was deemed suitable for Maekar and it was her blood that eventually kept the Targaryens alive and kicking. She might have thought there could be a rinse and repeat. And she was presumably in good health, so she had no reason to think she wouldn't be as fecund as Dyanna which was quite needed at the moment.

Interesting--might even be tied to the "ancient" house aspect. Like the Starks are as old as it gets--except perhaps for Daynes and Hightowers. I could see Ashara thinking that--hypothetically. 

If Aerys was willing to refuse Cersei for Rhaegar--an old, wealthy, and powerful house, I can see how the Daynes wouldn't score points. Even with the family's purple eyes.

On February 26, 2016 at 7:34 AM, Anath said:

On the other hand, she likely had some experience with the pressure put on Elia to give Rhaegar heirs no matter what. Such a thing could be off-putting or making herself think that she could have done better in Elia's place.

I'm now thinking about the spat between Arya and Sansa about Sansa's having Joffrey's children. Sansa really believes she can give him "golden lions." Cersei believes she could have given Rhaegar all the children he wanted. Kevan thinks something similar. I'm wondering if, when the story about Elia got out, there were a number of women and families thinking they could give Rhaegar what he wanted.

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9 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I do think they still had loyalty to Rhaegar--wherever they were, wherever "far away" was, seems VERY likely they were there on Rhaegar's orders. But at the bitter end--this seems like they only bring up Aerys for a reason.

This really does fit--especially since they are the ones whose faces "burn clear" while everyone else with Ned is a wraith.

Agreed. But the only text we have--they only talk of Aerys. Jaime's a "false brother"--false to whom? Aerys. The Usurper--they don't mention that he killed Rhaegar. Just that they would have killed The Usurper. And they say Darry fled. I've no idea what they'd say about Barristan. And I agree no one faults Barristan for sticking with his vows to the throne. But the little we have of these three seems more in line with the blood riders. And both fights are 7 against 3.

Barristan at this point has gone down fighting - for Aerys - and is currently a wounded prisoner, so his loyalty even if the three know he's still alive, isn't in question.

Afterwards loyalties are genuinely a little confused. Barristan swore his vow to the High King of Westeros. The King's heir, to whom he would ordinarily be required to swear fealty, [just as he would to Joffrey when Trouserless Bob popped his clogs] has fled. Is it his first duty to flee with the fugitive or swear loyalty to the throne. No easy answer and one that genuinely exercised those placed in that position historically.

As to the three in question, GRRM has unambiguously stated that they were obeying orders and while other members of the royal family can order them about to a degree, their clearly expressed loyalty to Aerys indicates that it is his orders they are obeying, not Rhaegar's

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On 28.02.2016 г. at 3:28 AM, Sly Wren said:

But the text also has them agreeing with Ned's characterization of Darry as fleeing. Darry's with the queen and Viserys--so why is he "fleeing" in comparison to them? Really sounds like they are thinking Darry fled Aerys (who else is he fleeing?). Fled his post in King's Landing with the King. It's not rational and these guys acknowledge it by saying Darry's a good man. But they still say it. They are angry. 

Right. That, of course, gives us another can of worms. Why did Ned respect them at all if all they did was doing the madman's bidding, guarding him as he did as he pleased with Ned's own family? It could be that Ned thought their duty to Aerys should surpass everything else and his thoughts about Jaime being the one who killed Aerys seemed to confirm it. But again, Ned himself has a terrible record of doing his duty to the king whose friend and Hand he was when his own values were at the stake. And there are hints that Arthur and Oswell were Rhaegar's people. Could Aerys have regained a touch of sanity (and trust in Rhaegar) enough to say "Ah well, keep them wherever you like"? I doubt it but who knows. Could it be that they were charged by Aerys to keep Ashara's hypothetical dragon kid safe and under Aerys' control which for the moment didn't clash with Rhaegar's objectives? Doesn't ring plausible to me but who knows.

On 28.02.2016 г. at 3:28 AM, Sly Wren said:

I do think they still had loyalty to Rhaegar--wherever they were, wherever "far away" was, seems VERY likely they were there on Rhaegar's orders. But at the bitter end--this seems like they only bring up Aerys for a reason.

Yes but I don't think it actually speaks this much about their loyalties for one over another. After all, the rebellion and murder of a king is unheard for since the Targs made the IT. They would be shaken to the core no matter their personal loyalties. At the moment, Aerys is the Targaryen face. The king. The one they swore to protect. Their own intentions to him might not look this meaningful in the face of a catastrophe like the one they faced. And they weren't exactly having a friendly chat with Ned. He was an enemy who supposedly wasn't going to be allowed entrance. They would hardly start pouring their hearts out to him. It's a good thing that it's a dream and not something we're meant to take literally because their boasting - all that there was - seems out of place in any scenario.

On 28.02.2016 г. at 3:28 AM, Sly Wren said:

But I did think of one paramour who was happy for a while--Shae. Sansa notes her eyes are insolent. But her ending is arguably worse than Ashara's or Lysa's--at least neither of them ended up in bed with Tywin.

But she does provide a potential echo--Tyrion and Sansa's marriage as maybe echoing some of Rhaegar and Elia's. Maybe.

I don't think Shae can be taken as anything else than an example of the life women like her lead. She was severely disadvantaged in comparison to both Ashara and Lysa. What was there for her if she didn't become Tyrion's mistress? In comparison, Lysa's life would have hardly been worse in the very basic meaning of the world if she hadn't sneaked into Baelish's bed. Unless we're talking about a rape here (Aerys being the culprit) or Rhaegar being a very intimidating man, Ashara's life wouldn't have been a bad one if she hadn't hooked up with a man. And Sansa and Elia's situations cannot be compared at all, IMO. Sansa didn't want Tyrion and wouldn't have cared whom she bedded. Elia, presumably, didn't mind marrying Rhaegar and if he was indeed intent on fathering a third head of the dragon, she would have been very interested in who the mother was.

On 28.02.2016 г. at 3:28 AM, Sly Wren said:

On the bolded (and the rest) I agree. But if Ashara went out the window, life might have hit her in some ways as hard as it hit Lysa.

In some ways yes. But she hadn't had the time to turn into a madwoman, Lysa-style.

On 28.02.2016 г. at 3:28 AM, Sly Wren said:

I just thought of Barristan's memory of Ashara's dancing at Harrenhal. Same with Howland's. How she's lively and beautiful. Even Sansa notes how Lysa seems much younger and more beautiful while dancing at her wedding to Petyr--a wedding held at an unnamed tower (!!!!!). How the years fell off of Lysa.

Again, yes. But it's all illusion. When the wedding was over, Lysa was the same insecure madwoman that she was before. Not like her young self.

On 28.02.2016 г. at 3:28 AM, Sly Wren said:

If Aerys was willing to refuse Cersei for Rhaegar--an old, wealthy, and powerful house, I can see how the Daynes wouldn't score points. Even with the family's purple eyes.

Unless they had some Targaryen blood themselves which might have given Ashara some hopes. Perhaps one of Dyanna's daughters married a Dayne cousin like Aerion married a Targaryen one? But I think in this case it would have been noted, like it was for the Tarts.

On 28.02.2016 г. at 3:28 AM, Sly Wren said:

Interesting--might even be tied to the "ancient" house aspect. Like the Starks are as old as it gets--except perhaps for Daynes and Hightowers. I could see Ashara thinking that--hypothetically. 

Interesting indeed, and ironic. The dragon kings seek to keep their Valyrian blood pure but they were second-class citizens in Valyria and in Westeros, their House is barely a toddler compared to great-grandfathers that some of the other Houses are. They're so focused on their dragon blood and prophecies that they seem to neglect the past and prophecies that have been in Westeros longer than them. They were only interested when that wood witch told them that they had a part to play.

On 28.02.2016 г. at 1:02 PM, Black Crow said:

As to the three in question, GRRM has unambiguously stated that they were obeying orders and while other members of the royal family can order them about to a degree, their clearly expressed loyalty to Aerys indicates that it is his orders they are obeying, not Rhaegar's

Perhaps. And yet we know that Arthur, at least, was generally considered Aerys' man. Could a part of Aerys' reasoning be his reluctance to have them near so they could not betray him?

Crackpot alert: Ashara Dayne never existed. There was only Shaena Targaryen, born when Aerys was conveniently absent, his relationship with Rhaella steadily worsening along with his mental state - well, I'm being too diplomatic here, he was going decidedly cray-cray - and Rhaella wanted her baby safely away from him and his deterioration. Shaena Targaryen was sent to the Dayne kin where she was renamed in a way that honoured her grandmother queen Shaera. At the time, Rhaella had no way to know that Aerys would insist on a Valyrian bride for Rhaegar and when it happened, she could hardly say, well, we have the perfect match! And when it all came into the light, Rhaegar realized that Shaena was the perfect solution of all his problems. The mother of the third head. His dream, in fact! That would further explain why the three KG stayed where they were. They now had two royals to take care of. It even fits with my hunch that initially, Barristan had a thing for Rhaella before it got old and transferred to the younger woman - her daughter. It'll also be an ironic twist of Baelish who gives hints that Sansa has taken, in a way, her mother's place in what passes for his affections.

What? You don't believe me? With all the secret Targs running around, what's one more? Oh never mind, it was a good crackpot.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Anath said:

Perhaps. And yet we know that Arthur, at least, was generally considered Aerys' man. Could a part of Aerys' reasoning be his reluctance to have them near so they could not betray him?

Probably the other way around. He can trust Hightower to be loyal and to remind the other two of their duty, and he can trust Barristan - perhaps more than he can trust Rhaegar. Whether or not he regards Jaime Lannister as a hostage for his father, Aerys clearly did not trust him to be out of his sight.

That of course is ironic given it was Jaime who stabbed him in the back, but there's a difference between keeping someone close and his duties clearly defined, and sending him off as Hightower was to act as the King's agent.

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12 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Barristan at this point has gone down fighting - for Aerys - and is currently a wounded prisoner, so his loyalty even if the three know he's still alive, isn't in question.

Afterwards loyalties are genuinely a little confused. Barristan swore his vow to the High King of Westeros. The King's heir, to whom he would ordinarily be required to swear fealty, [just as he would to Joffrey when Trouserless Bob popped his clogs] has fled. Is it his first duty to flee with the fugitive or swear loyalty to the throne. No easy answer and one that genuinely exercised those placed in that position historically.

I agree. Barristan was faithful to Aerys and wounded to incapacitation. By the time he had recovered the situation had dramatically changed and he had an extremely difficult choice to make. One that he later regrets.

12 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to the three in question, GRRM has unambiguously stated that they were obeying orders and while other members of the royal family can order them about to a degree, their clearly expressed loyalty to Aerys indicates that it is his orders they are obeying, not Rhaegar's

Minor correction. GRRM has not unambiguously stated that they were obeying orders. He stated that if Rhaegar gave them an order they would have to follow it. He didn't qualify that or unqualify that but we know logically that it must be qualified, since if Rhaegar and Aerys gave them mutually exclusive orders, they would have to follow Aerys' and couldn't do both. And if Rhaegar ordered them to kill Aerys, thats not an order they could legally obey.

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On 2/26/2016 at 9:38 AM, Anath said:

Yes but age is all that they have in common (that we know of). For all we know, Cersei and Ashara never met. And Cersei and Elia only had one visit to get to know each other (that we know of). We're talking about a sister role here, not someone who is just the right age, like a good deal of the population of Planetos. That demands some closeness.

I wouldn't be so certain of that.  Remember, Tywin was the Hand, and at some point he did bring Cersei to court and she remained there up until Tywin resigned when he found out that Jaime was to be made a Kingsguard, I believe, which would be pretty close to the Harrenhall Tournament. Who knows for sure what type of relationship, if any, Elia and Cersei might have developed in that time. Not do we know exactly, what, if any, Cersei's role was at court.  It appears that she had enough power to arrange to have Jaime be made a Kingsguard.

 

On 2/28/2016 at 8:05 PM, Sly Wren said:

One of the things that gives me pause, though, is how they characterize Darry as fleeing. Unless he's a horrible man who killed their dog, this is just off to characterize him as fleeing with the queen and the prince. If these guys are about protecting the next generation, why are they focusing on "fleeing" Aerys?

Yes, that is a hard one to figure out. There's only two possible explanations that I can think of. First, for whatever reason they don't believe Viserys should have left or that he should be the one receiving protection. Or maybe they see their own actions as different because Aerys is no longer alive to protect.  It also makes me wonder, did Darry actually flee due to Aerys's order or for another reason? 

 

On 2/28/2016 at 8:05 PM, Sly Wren said:

The bolded is an EXCELLENT point. Granted, we don't yet know how much Martin is going to repeat. But he's repeated a lot so far. Yes.  . . the bolded is a very good point. Well done.

:cheers: It has been known to happen. At least every once in awhile. ;)

 

On 2/28/2016 at 8:05 PM, Sly Wren said:

only thing I can think of is Aerys' reaction to baby Rhaenys. I could see Elia wanting out of that, to just stay on Dragonstone with her children away from Mad Dad-in-Law.

I think that just might make anyone want out. :)

 

On 2/28/2016 at 8:05 PM, Sly Wren said:

Perhaps another echo might be Sansa and Tyrion's marriage--Sansa doesn't seem overly aware of Shae as Tyrion's mistress, though she does note that Shae has insolent eyes. But I doubt Sansa would have minded. Rhaegar and Elia are unlikely to have been as estranged as Sansa and Tyrion. But Sansa's trouble with Tyrion is largely his family. I'm thus wondering if Elia had similar problems. And if Shae is a twisted echo of Ashara. . . 

Oh, I really like this!  This is a great find and fits well with things I've seen elsewhere.  Plus, Shae might not have jumped from a tower, but she was killed in one. By her paramour, just like Lysa. 

On 2/28/2016 at 8:28 PM, Sly Wren said:

the bolded (and the rest) I agree. But if Ashara went out the window, life might have hit her in some ways as hard as it hit Lysa.

I just thought of Barristan's memory of Ashara's dancing at Harrenhal. Same with Howland's. How she's lively and beautiful. Even Sansa notes how Lysa seems much younger and more beautiful while dancing at her wedding to Petyr--a wedding held at an unnamed tower (!!!!!). How the years fell off of Lysa.

So you're point that young Lysa is potentially the better parallel, yes, I san see that.

Interesting.  Great connection! Plus there is all of the discussion about Cat dancing with Petyr when they were children.

 

On 2/28/2016 at 8:28 PM, Sly Wren said:

Even with the family's purple eyes.

I'm thinking that those purple eyes might well have put her in second place, though. You REALLY need to get to Evolett's essays. My mind is spinning a million miles an hour. The ideas aren't necessarily related to this, but can be extrapolated to many things.  

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On February 28, 2016 at 4:02 AM, Black Crow said:

Barristan at this point has gone down fighting - for Aerys - and is currently a wounded prisoner, so his loyalty even if the three know he's still alive, isn't in question.

Afterwards loyalties are genuinely a little confused. Barristan swore his vow to the High King of Westeros. The King's heir, to whom he would ordinarily be required to swear fealty, [just as he would to Joffrey when Trouserless Bob popped his clogs] has fled. Is it his first duty to flee with the fugitive or swear loyalty to the throne. No easy answer and one that genuinely exercised those placed in that position historically.

Agreed.

Which is why I find their characterization of Darry as "fleeing" odd. He's a good man. But they still clearly imply that he fled. They seem angry. NOT interested in looking at the subtleties of the situation. 

Or they've looked at the subtleties and rejected them. Rather like the bloodrider who was always kind to Dany gives it up and tries to cut her throat. In the end, all Drogo's men care about is their leader--dead or alive. Then or now. Seems like things have gotten pretty simple for Aerys' 3 men, too.

On February 28, 2016 at 4:02 AM, Black Crow said:

As to the three in question, GRRM has unambiguously stated that they were obeying orders and while other members of the royal family can order them about to a degree, their clearly expressed loyalty to Aerys indicates that it is his orders they are obeying, not Rhaegar's

Or that it's his orders they are going back to. After having to obey the immediate presence of Rhaegar.

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On February 28, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Anath said:

Right. That, of course, gives us another can of worms. Why did Ned respect them at all if all they did was doing the madman's bidding, guarding him as he did as he pleased with Ned's own family? It could be that Ned thought their duty to Aerys should surpass everything else and his thoughts about Jaime being the one who killed Aerys seemed to confirm it. But again, Ned himself has a terrible record of doing his duty to the king whose friend and Hand he was when his own values were at the stake.

The bolded is where I think the hint might be--when Ned breaks from Robert over a girl he's never met (so far as we know at present) and has no known responsibility towards. But he publicly calls Robert--his king--out on this. The Hand of the King tells the king off and quits.:eek:

I'm thinking that Ned found out that at least Arthur was up to something similar--"the finest knight I ever saw."

On February 28, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Anath said:

And there are hints that Arthur and Oswell were Rhaegar's people. Could Aerys have regained a touch of sanity (and trust in Rhaegar) enough to say "Ah well, keep them wherever you like"? I doubt it but who knows. Could it be that they were charged by Aerys to keep Ashara's hypothetical dragon kid safe and under Aerys' control which for the moment didn't clash with Rhaegar's objectives? Doesn't ring plausible to me but who knows.

Given all we're shown about the difficulties of the kingsguard to figure out what to do--seems like there are a few options on the table. @superunknown5 has argued that Arys Oakheart possibly echoes Arthur. A kingsguard. In Dorne. Protecting a royal--who gets swept up in a coup to put said royal on the throne. Instead of a weak king. And prior to that, over a mad king.  Seems like there really might be a reason Martin put in Arys. As well as Barristan and Jaime's POVs on being a confused KG.

As for Ashara or Lyanna's or any hypothetical Rhaegar-spawned child: the 3 bloodriders scrap that once the khal goes down. Granted, their traditions are different. But seems like there's a chance the 3 KG scrapped any of Rhaegar's plans and went back to their core oath: Aerys' KG. And their honor. 

On February 28, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Anath said:

Yes but I don't think it actually speaks this much about their loyalties for one over another. After all, the rebellion and murder of a king is unheard for since the Targs made the IT. They would be shaken to the core no matter their personal loyalties. At the moment, Aerys is the Targaryen face. The king. The one they swore to protect. Their own intentions to him might not look this meaningful in the face of a catastrophe like the one they faced. And they weren't exactly having a friendly chat with Ned. He was an enemy who supposedly wasn't going to be allowed entrance. They would hardly start pouring their hearts out to him. It's a good thing that it's a dream and not something we're meant to take literally because their boasting - all that there was - seems out of place in any scenario.

Very true. The whole thing seems to be getting very simple when their world fell apart. We see Barristan's confusion and horror over Robert. And that's not in the middle of a revolution.

On February 28, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Anath said:

I don't think Shae can be taken as anything else than an example of the life women like her lead.

HA! All fair. But she was the only one I could think of. 

On February 28, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Anath said:

And Sansa and Elia's situations cannot be compared at all, IMO. Sansa didn't want Tyrion and wouldn't have cared whom she bedded. Elia, presumably, didn't mind marrying Rhaegar and if he was indeed intent on fathering a third head of the dragon, she would have been very interested in who the mother was.

Perhaps, then, Lysa is back on the table for comparison? How she insists that Baelish loves her, but still is suspicious of others. And shattered and violent over the idea of his attraction to Sansa. And even the memory of Cat.

On February 28, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Anath said:

Again, yes. But it's all illusion. When the wedding was over, Lysa was the same insecure madwoman that she was before. Not like her young self.

Oh, yes. Exactly. My point was that we are getting a glimpse at Lysa pre-madness first hand. An echo of the way Cat described her as a girl. It's taken a while for Lysa to slip into mad-lady land and still breast-feeding Robin. It also took (I think) the loss of her first child and her man (for a time). I'm assuming it may have taken Ashara a bit of time, too.

On February 28, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Anath said:

Interesting indeed, and ironic. The dragon kings seek to keep their Valyrian blood pure but they were second-class citizens in Valyria and in Westeros, their House is barely a toddler compared to great-grandfathers that some of the other Houses are. They're so focused on their dragon blood and prophecies that they seem to neglect the past and prophecies that have been in Westeros longer than them. They were only interested when that wood witch told them that they had a part to play.

YUP! The Targaryens really are parvenues. Not "up jumped stewards," exactly. But still--they do want to aggrandize their own importance. 

Yet another reason I'm not at all sold on their being right about anything to do with those prophecies.

@Lady Dyanna: will be back soon to answer your post!!

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On February 29, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Yes, that is a hard one to figure out. There's only two possible explanations that I can think of. First, for whatever reason they don't believe Viserys should have left or that he should be the one receiving protection.

This seems a hard one to work. If this is the case, why do they agree with Ned's characterization that Darry fled? And, no matter how angry they are, would they really blame a kid for this decision? Granted, we know next to nothing about their thought process, but still--that seems harsh.

As for Viserys' not receiving protection--if that's the case, what on earth would they be up to? If they are working for a Targ restoration, seems like keeping Targs alive would help. If not--what are they up to? 

On February 29, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Or maybe they see their own actions as different because Aerys is no longer alive to protect.

Possible. Though he's the only Targ or king or "cause" they mention: "The Kingsguard do not flee. Then or now." I keep coming back to the blood riders on this--no hope. But still fight for honor.

On February 29, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

It also makes me wonder, did Darry actually flee due to Aerys's order or for another reason? 

An excellent question. Couple that with the fact that Viserys tells Dany they were thrown out of the house with the red door after Darry died--why on earth would Darry be the one with the clout? Instead of the royals he was caring for? Especially since he was bedridden? If Darry had other orders--would make some sense of things. And might make sense of why Viserys remembers/tells Dany that Darry "broke into" the nursery. As discussed elsewhere, that's a weird detail.

On February 29, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

:cheers: It has been known to happen. At least every once in awhile. ;)

Happens more often than not, friend!:cheers:

On February 29, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

I think that just might make anyone want out. :)

Can you imagine family dinners with this lot? Grandpa trying to get the kids to roast marshmallows with wildfire. Viserys throwing fits over why Rhaegar gets to wield a sword and he can't yet. While poor Rhaella tries to calm tensions by convincing everyone to play Monopoly, a move that backfires horribly.:leaving:

On February 29, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Oh, I really like this!  This is a great find and fits well with things I've seen elsewhere.  Plus, Shae might not have jumped from a tower, but she was killed in one. By her paramour, just like Lysa. 

:cheers: And good catch on the tower! I'd not even though of that. In this case, the man is the lover who feels betrayed. So a bit of a potential inverse for @Feather Crystal's project.

On February 29, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Interesting.  Great connection! Plus there is all of the discussion about Cat dancing with Petyr when they were children.

Yes--and dancing is something closely associated with Ashara by both Howland and Barristan. Part of what gets her noticed.

On February 29, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

I'm thinking that those purple eyes might well have put her in second place, though.

Not sure I'm following you--any chance you'd elaborate?

On February 29, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

You REALLY need to get to Evolett's essays. My mind is spinning a million miles an hour. The ideas aren't necessarily related to this, but can be extrapolated to many things.  

Yes--I read the one about life in the bones. But will try to get to the others when I can find a chance of time.

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51 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

excellent question. Couple that with the fact that Viserys tells Dany they were thrown out of the house with the red door after Darry died--why on earth would Darry be the one with the clout? Instead of the royals he was caring for? Especially since he was bedridden? If Darry had other orders--would make some sense of things. And might make sense of why Viserys remembers/tells Dany that Darry "broke into" the nursery. As discussed elsewhere, that's a weird detail.

I'm wondering more and more lately if that whole story isn't just complete fantasy? Thinking of  voice latest ideas about Rhaegar wanting Aerys dead, was that actually supposed to be Darry's part of the plan, to save the Kingsguard from the dishonor of breaking their vows. Possibly the same reason why only Jaime Lannister was left behind to guard Aerys? Only, when Rhaegar was killed, instead of fulfilling this duty, he chose to flee. Just a thought.

 

59 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Can you imagine family dinners with this lot? Grandpa trying to get the kids to roast marshmallows with wildfire. Viserys throwing fits over why Rhaegar gets to wield a sword and he can't yet. While poor Rhaella tries to calm tensions by convincing everyone to play Monopoly, a move that backfires horribly.:leaving:

Might be better than some recent Hearthian dinners might have turned out. :leaving:

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

good catch on the tower! 

:cheers: I'm not sure if it was mine or not. Is that bad?

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Not sure I'm following you--any chance you'd elaborate?

I've recently seen speculated that eye color reflects genetic ability. Blue eyes with some traits, red with others and purple signifies both. 

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

-I read the one about life in the bones. But will try to get to the others when I can find a chance of time.

I've been able to pull quite a few great ideas from them! Bones, genetics, warging, magical, etc.  

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