2016 US Election thread: the begininning

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

53 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

I can understand that fear--I don't want to slide back to the 90s either--but I comfort myself with the belief that the Democratic Party of 2016 is not the Democratic Party of 1992. As I have said before, I think the party is moving towards Sanders, even if it is not there yet.

I have the same fear. I worry that once Sanders is defeated, HRC will drift back to her corporate friendly ways in the general, and that a lot of the proposals she's made during the primary are just to beat Sanders and that her heart isn't really in a lot of them.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I agree 100% with this.

I'd also like to add that a lot of people can relate to Bill's short comings. People have affairs, and they lie about them. It's not unusal. HRC is being accused of things that directly involve her work as the SoS, which most people cannot relate to.

Well, HRC had those trustworthiness issues way back in '08, way before she was SoS.

I have to agree with the other person, that with HRC likability seems to be a bigger issue. Clinton and his successors were able to charm and connect to an audience. 

As hard as it sounds, some people have it, some people don't. HRC doesn't have it. But good news, nobody who is running this time seems to be real good at that. Bernie appears to be still way better at it, than HRC though.

Take Obama or Bill Clinton. I think either of them would easily crush the entire field at a general election.

[Commodore]

Hillary seems to be going hard against single payer, not sure what the political calculus is there.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

52 minutes ago, Notone said:

Well, HRC had those trustworthiness issues way back in '08, way before she was SoS.

I have to agree with the other person, that with HRC likability seems to be a bigger issue. Clinton and his successors were able to charm and connect to an audience.

As hard as it sounds, some people have it, some people don't. HRC doesn't have it. But good news, nobody who is running this time seems to be real good at that. Bernie appears to be still way better at it, than HRC though.

Take Obama or Bill Clinton. I think either of them would easily crush the entire field at a general election.

LOL, I am that other person. I brought up he lack of the likeability factor.

[Kalbear]

9 minutes ago, Commodore said:

Hillary seems to be going hard against single payer, not sure what the political calculus is there.

The majority of the country is against it. 

[Ormond]

When Clinton had sex with Monica Lewinsky, he wasn't just "having an affair." He was having a sexual relationship with a White House intern. This is equivalent to a college professor sexually exploiting a student, or a psychotherapist exploiting a client. I think the ethics of that are much more questionable than the average sexual fling.

I don't think Hillary should be blamed for that. But I think Bill's actions back then were sleazier than doing the equivalent with most other women would have been. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

LOL, I am that other person. I brought up he lack of the likeability factor.

Sorry, that was lazy me not wanting to read back a few pages to find out who said it.

And lazy me is often times very convincing.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

17 minutes ago, Ormond said:

When Clinton had sex with Monica Lewinsky, he wasn't just "having an affair." He was having a sexual relationship with a White House intern. This is equivalent to a college professor sexually exploiting a student, or a psychotherapist exploiting a client. I think the ethics of that are much more questionable than the average sexual fling.

I don't think Hillary should be blamed for that. But I think Bill's actions back then were sleazier than doing the equivalent with most other women would have been.

I think, and I could be wrong, that HRC gets blamed not for the affair itself, but for how she attacked ML when in hindsight ML could be seen as a victum.

[Dr. Pepper]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

I think, and I could be wrong, that HRC gets blamed not for the affair itself, but for how she attacked ML when in hindsight ML could be seen as a victum.

Yup, and Rand Paul introduced that argument again last night, then including Hillary's support to regimes that treat women like cattle.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

12 minutes ago, Notone said:

Sorry, that was lazy me not wanting to read back a few pages to find out who said it.

And lazy me is often times very convincing.

I, of all people, can't begrudge someone for being lazy.

[Ormond]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

I think, and I could be wrong, that HRC gets blamed not for the affair itself, but for how she attacked ML when in hindsight ML could be seen as a victum.

If there are public recordings of her doing that, I think it would be legitimate to bring that up. 

I probably wasn't paying enough attention to what Hillary herself was saying about that at the time. I do remember being miffed at a lot of other liberal and feminist women who seemed to be doing the same when if it were any other older male having sex with a younger female student/employee, they would have seen that as unethical exploitation and would have immediately seen Monica as having way less responsibility than Bill. 

[Maltaran]

So apparently Clinton did have some top secret e-mails on her server, although the State Department spokesperson says they weren't classified at the time they were sent. I'm not sure if that means they were classified but not marked as such, or if the information contained in them has been classified subsequently.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35446455
 

Quote

 

Hillary Clinton's unsecured home server contained more than a dozen emails deemed "top secret"- one of the highest levels of classification in the US government, the White House has said.

State Department spokesman John Kirby said the documents were not marked classified at the time they were sent.

 

 

[TrackerNeil]

2 hours ago, Weeping Sore said:

I'm hoping Sanders will push the Overton window back to the point where Clinton has to commit to bringing back the Public Option as a path to further healthcare reform.

Hillary Clinton isn't the only one who will have to be pushed; the Democratic Party needs to shift as well, and so do Republicans. I think the public option is not viable until 2020 at the earliest. It has very little to do with Clinton, whom as president I am sure would sign a public option bill if Congress sent it to her.

[Swordfish]

32 minutes ago, Ormond said:

When Clinton had sex with Monica Lewinsky, he wasn't just "having an affair." He was having a sexual relationship with a White House intern. This is equivalent to a college professor sexually exploiting a student, or a psychotherapist exploiting a client. I think the ethics of that are much more questionable than the average sexual fling.

I don't think Hillary should be blamed for that. But I think Bill's actions back then were sleazier than doing the equivalent with most other women would have been. 

And then lying about it.

Under oath.

[BloodRider]

31 minutes ago, Ormond said:

When Clinton had sex with Monica Lewinsky, he wasn't just "having an affair." He was having a sexual relationship with a White House intern. This is equivalent to a college professor sexually exploiting a student, or a psychotherapist exploiting a client. I think the ethics of that are much more questionable than the average sexual fling.

No its not.  It's more like the CEO of a company diddling a summer intern in Accounting.  Or a chancellor / Dean sleeping with a student. IE There was no direct report relationship, and he had a lot less power over her than in the relationships you listed.

Not that that makes what he did anywhere near right or decent, but it is patently not as egregious as a therapist banging their patient, or a teacher banging their current student.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

And then lying about it.

Under oath.

To be fair, you, me and most men would have too if we were in that situation.

[Ormond]

1 minute ago, BloodRider said:

No its not.  It's more like the CEO of a company diddling a summer intern in Accounting.  Or a chancellor / Dean sleeping with a student. IE There was no direct report relationship, and he had a lot less power over her than in the relationships you listed.

Not that that makes what he did anywhere near right or decent, but it is patently not as egregious as a therapist banging their patient, or a teacher banging their current student.

In my opinion, if those who DID have a direct report relationship were reporting to Clinton, it's just as bad or even worse. I certainly don't think a factory owner who sexually exploited an assembly line worker should be thought less unethical than a foreperson on the assembly line doing the same. 

[Swordfish]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

To be fair, you, me and most men would have too if we were in that situation.

Kindly speak for yourself here...

Either way, that's irrelevant.

[BloodRider]

6 minutes ago, Ormond said:

In my opinion, if those who DID have a direct report relationship were reporting to Clinton, it's just as bad or even worse. I certainly don't think a factory owner who sexually exploited an assembly line worker should be thought less unethical than a foreperson on the assembly line doing the same. 

Your opinion differs from laws, most HR standards, and professional ethical standards as they now stand.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

18 minutes ago, Ormond said:

If there are public recordings of her doing that, I think it would be legitimate to bring that up.

I probably wasn't paying enough attention to what Hillary herself was saying about that at the time. I do remember being miffed at a lot of other liberal and feminist women who seemed to be doing the same when if it were any other older male having sex with a younger female student/employee, they would have seen that as unethical exploitation and would have immediately seen Monica as having way less responsibility than Bill.

It's hard to get an unbiased assessment of what all went on if you weren't paying attention then. Everything I've read or watched is soaked with the narrators' opinions of the affair.

13 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Kindly speak for yourself here...

Either way, that's irrelevant.

Dude, it was a joke. Go take A.A.Ron's advice.