Bloody Ben Blackwood Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Premise - So the general consensus on this group is that the last book will be about the fight with the Others. By this time the people of Westeros will stop their Game of Thrones and realize the true threat is Others and unite to fight them. Dany will also be in or coming to Westeros by then. So this is my premise that all of Westeros and probably Essos will realize that the Great Other / White Walkers are actually invading, they realize that Night's Watch or one lord alone cannot stop them, they need to unite to fight with them. The Wall will definitely fall. Problem - Nearly everybody is embroiled with the fight for sitting on the Iron Throne. Lannisters, Aegon and Company, Stannis, Tyrells, Greyjoys and Dany wants the Iron Throne and doesn't care about anything else. Martells want revenge and their blood on the throne. Boltons want the North. Vale is under Little Finger who wants to add North and then eventually the whole realm to his dominion. The only three people who really care about the Others are a boy of 14 who is currently stabbed, another boy of 7 who is a cripple, another boy of 14 who is a fat craven and a man who's member has been bitten in half. Nobody else gives two shits about the impending invasion. And till the White Walkers really invade, take a big castle and kill someone important nobody is going to invest their entire resources to fight some mythical creatures which were known to be gone for 8000 years. Question - Nobody south is going to care till the WW conquer north. Jon, Stannis, Boltons and the entire North is still in the north and will not let them pass till they are dead. So where will be battle of Dawn be fought? Do the WW kill everyone in the north and then the south scampers to the fight? Then they all meet somewhere in the riverlands? Or the final battle is fought outside Winterfell and the Boltons or someone else makes everyone south realize that the WW threat is credible and fatal? Jon and the northmen step aside and let the WW go up south unopposed then join the fight from the flanks when the final battle takes place. All except the major players are dead by this time, Aegon and the Martells hold King's Landing. Tyrells are destroyed. Lannisters hold the west. Littlefinger is dead and Sansa controls the Vale. Tullys are restored in the riverlands and there is nobody in the riverlands left alive. Boltons are destroyed and Jon rules in the North. Jon's legitimacy as the king is formalized and he and Dany will lead the forces of Essos and Westeros to end this invasion by killing all the WW or striking a deal with them after a devastating battle for both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dariopatke Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 The only mistake is that Stannis doesnt care about Other, because he pretty much does. I see Jon taking WF with Boltons and One true King dead in most scenarios. Now, Jon may hide in WF and let them pass, he may get a raven from Sam who discovered something really important about Others that will help him make peace, or he may go in battle with them and lose and become one of them, leading their forces against Dany who took KL and smashed Tyrells, Martells, Lannisters,... Im going for either around WF or Trident although I would like to see entire Westeros frozen and main battle led in Myr or somewhere in Essos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khal drogon Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Everywhere from the Wall to Dorne, from the Iron Isles to Asshai if it is really Battle for Dawn. Personally I don't think we are going to see a Battle for Dawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane snow Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I know there are changes from the original outline of the story, but didn't it say the final conflict will be at winterfell? I tend to believe that will still be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfyre Bastard Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 While I think there should be a final battle, prior to that must be an invasion and slaughter of MASSIVE proportions so as to emphasize the nature of the Others, and that what is at stake is the survival of humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicxulub Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 GRRM is said to have a love of parallels. I think that there was something VERY significant to have happened on Battle Isle, and I expect that we'll see as such again. The thing I think that we're all missing however is that the invasion isn't just going to come from the North. It will come from the seas as well. There seems to be quite a bit of foreshadowing for this in the world book with all the legends surrounding horrible things from the seas, particularly in the north with the wight mermaids. I think we'll see a Battle for the Dawn, and it will be of a scope far greater than we're expecting from our Westerosi and Wall based perspective. The Wall is not a Chekhov's Gun, it is a giant exercise in futility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloody Ben Blackwood Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 Till now we do not know how intelligent the Others are and what is the level of ice magic they have. Can they build ships or rafts of ice to attack from the sea? And they can siege or storm a castle ? If they cannot take a castle then the more probable attack will be that they will leave the lords in their castles and keep riding south and killing everyone in their path and making them wights. So Jon can survive till the battle reaches the south 5 hours ago, Chicxulub said: There seems to be quite a bit of foreshadowing for this in the world book with all the legends surrounding horrible things from the seas, particularly in the north with the wight mermaids. Sorry I just read the world book once and missed the part about wight mermaids, do you have a passage or quote from it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon2908 Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Ayy there won't be any battle. It would be a bit cliched and very un GRRM like. Instead we shall see a truce between the Others and humans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevasTra82 Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 3 hours ago, Falcon2908 said: Ayy there won't be any battle. It would be a bit cliched and very un GRRM like. Instead we shall see a truce between the Others and humans A pact/truce (or something of the nature) will happen with the Starks and The Others before any sort of battle will take place. The Others attacking is ASOIAF's biggest red herring. The threat will always be there and remain, but ultimately, it will never actually happen. Jon Snow (more then likely) will be the catalyst for preventing an invasion from ever taking place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloody Ben Blackwood Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 But if there is no battle then all build up for WW been seen after thousands of years, wildlings moving south and Jon getting stabbed over letting them in, the prophecy of the TPTWP and Rhaegar losing his kingdom trying to fulfill it, Azhor Ahai being reborn etc etc is just too much misdirection. Since very few people are aware of it, it doesn't even fit in as a MacGuffin in my personal opinion. But then GRRM has said that the Others are not one dimensional evil monsters so who knows. The biggest point against the no battle scenario I can think of is that this does not make a good TV show ending. The WW on the show have been shown as making traps to kill rangers, taking baby sacrifices, attacking Bran outside the cave, there is no grey side to them till now, where characters like Cersei, Tyrion, Catelyn, Robb etc have been white washed to make no outright villains in the series, except Joffrey in the earlier seasons, now Ramsay, and probably Euron in the next one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Premise is wrong, everyone will care and ally because Jon will make them care when he consolidates and marches all the forces now in the North (and the rest that will come) south on the IT. That's his arc, to save the realm he must do what gives him the greatest guilt, embrace legitimacy, so that he may lead. Cregane Stark and his hour of the wolf, the first young wolf and Daeron the young dragon are the roadmap for Jon going South, his 'friendship' conversation with Tyrion and the multiple pacts (Ice and Fire) the foreshadowing for the alliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevasTra82 Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Bloody Ben Blackwood said: But if there is no battle then all build up for WW been seen after thousands of years, wildlings moving south and Jon getting stabbed over letting them in, the prophecy of the TPTWP and Rhaegar losing his kingdom trying to fulfill it, Azhor Ahai being reborn etc etc is just too much misdirection. Since very few people are aware of it, it doesn't even fit in as a MacGuffin in my personal opinion. But then GRRM has said that the Others are not one dimensional evil monsters so who knows. The biggest point against the no battle scenario I can think of is that this does not make a good TV show ending. The WW on the show have been shown as making traps to kill rangers, taking baby sacrifices, attacking Bran outside the cave, there is no grey side to them till now, where characters like Cersei, Tyrion, Catelyn, Robb etc have been white washed to make no outright villains in the series, except Joffrey in the earlier seasons, now Ramsay, and probably Euron in the next one The prophecies very well may be true, but nowhere in those prophesies does it state that they'll be a huge battle and everyone will fight....that's an assumption that you are jumping to. The Others *are* a threat....I just don't believe they'll invade. They will be thwarted North of the Wall before any attacks happen. Your main issue is thinking the Books will be like the TV Show. Two totally different entities that are going in opposite directions, its getting harder and harder to compare the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobOsevens Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Winterfell or the Trident, it is known Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoWesteros Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 If there is going to be A Battle for The Dawn I do not expect that everyone will just suddenly stop playing the game of thrones and unite. Thats a horrible idea and very unGRRN-like. I doubt there will be one big battle either, this isn't LOTR. There will be a drawn out invasion with skirmishes and conflicts from different POV's showing how different people around westeros are dealing with The Others. There will be a few heroes in our main characters, but not one big battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Initially confined to the Wall but, eventually, it gets overrun. Significant battles at Winterfell and the Trident. Some sort of shenanigans going on up in the far north. Euron might be a wild card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myself656 Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I think there will be the threat of a massive battle, but that such a battle will be presented as a "fail state" due to the consequences of either side actually winning (i.e. if the Others win we all get to freeze to death, if Azor Ahai wins we all get to burn to death). To clarify... I don't believe Azor Ahai is a good guy. I think AA is the champion of R'hllr who is prophecized to bring about an "eternal summer" where only the chosen of the Red God can live (i.e. a burning sun-blasted wasteland). Basically the opposite number of the Others and I'm pretty sure its Dany and the dragons are the red sword of heroes. I think the Others and Azor Ahai fought once before in the distant past when the Long Night covered the world, but that that conflict ended in a draw. Now they're both back for a winner-takes-all rematch to determine the fate of the world. I also think the Prince That Was Promised is actually a different but related character who will balance the ice and fire and keep either side from achieving a final victory that will result in the world ending for everyone stuck in between. This might either be a truce and return to the separate corners for another 8000 years or, given that this will be the end of the epic, a more likely result will be some sort of union of opposites between Ice and Fire (ex. a marriage between Dany/Fire and the Night King/Ice). My guess is that the site of this almost battle will be about halfway between King's Landing and Winterfell, since for narrative reasons I expect Dany to reach King's Landing right about the time the Others reach Winterfell (and prior to that Dany will depart for Westeros right about the time the Wall comes down giving the Others access to the rest of Westeros)... which by the maps would put it right about at The Twins (fittingly named if the conflict ends with a Yin/Yang sort of union of opposites). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcarlsson Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 When it does happen, no one will actually sit there and be like "it's the Battle for the Dawn", so as someone else said, it will probably be a bunch of people in different places reacting to WWs, not a giant battle at a single point on the map. That, or it'll be at Starfall or wherever Dawn the Sword currently is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A spoon of knife and fork Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I strongly suspect hat Daenerys savior complex will kick in and she will drop whatever she is doing to go north and help. Yeah she wants the IT but she wants to be seen as a savior of the people even more, as evidenced by her arc. Furthermore, Tyrion, if he is with Daenerys, will probably regret not helping the NW when he had the power to do so. I'm not saying he's a great philanthropist or something, but Tyrion is not an idiot. If there is evidence that a real invasion iof undead monsters is happening, he'll Try to stop it if he can. So the idea that "no one will care" if they stay north of the neck doesn't take into consideration actual character. Ok so Dany, Tyrion, and forces will help as soon as they find out. Dany being an inspiring leader will most likely get a largish army to come with her given that her cause is literally the survival of humanity. Since Jon is not a MORON he will be pleased to finally have someone from the south actually listen to him - all the better one of them is his old friend Tyrion and the other a new-found relative. Meanwhile yes there will be plenty of people who will scrabble over the power vacuum. The game will not "stop" but people of conscience will remove themselves from it, for the greater good. Perhaps then the vultures will indeed be the ones who hold power after the real heroes have martyred themselves. Fine. Sounds bittersweet to me. eta: right OPs question. Well, the battle where humanity ultimately turns the tide could be IMO anywhere between the wall and the trident. It doesn't matter too much. Dany has that vision of fighting them on The Trident, but that could have just been metaphorical. And by the way the others do not have to be ridiculous black hats for humans stopping them to be reasonable. Might be this is just a counterattack from the others perspective. Doesn't mean humans can't try to stop them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I think likely in several places. There is no reason to suppose the Others have to fight like a human army. There is little reason to suppose that they have to fight in some linear manner like a WWI army. They excel at night fighting. They can infilitrate easily. They can raise armies just about anywhere where there are "recruits" ie dead people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 If Dany and Jon's dreams have anything to say about it, There will be a battle at Winterfell and a battle on the Trident Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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