Hoster Tully should have stripped the Freys of some lands and raised their taxes

[shizett]

1 minute ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

But Robert's victory was not total. Half the Kingdom was still politically against him, if he was going to start sanctioning reprisals against not only the Targ supporters but the neutral Houses then he is going to be indanger of losing his new crown what he has just won.

Punishing Houses that lost most of their strength is easy, punishing the Freys (while easily possible) could trigger more rebellions across the realm.

It is easier to get rid of Littlefinger as he has zero ties in the Harrenhal lands, zero alliances and as a pretty new House easily replaceable. 

 

But he has, publicly at least, given no reason to be seen as an enemy.

I see. You (collectively) are right. I think I kept missing one point after the other. Thanks for the explanation.

[Sullen]

Terrible idea.

The Realm is in a terrible condition, in no condition to punish actors who were potentially neutral, if not outright on the side of the rebels.

It's absurd, why should the Freys be punished any more than the entirety of the Reach, Dorne, the Valemen and Stormlander loyalists, and any other Riverlord loyalists? All of them are considerably more deserving of being punished.

[Blackfish Tully]

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is indeed no hint that Littlefinger asked Tommen/Cersei for permission to give Nestor Royce the Gates of the Moon. But that is actually a different case. The Gates of the Moon are an Arryn castle, and House Arryn certainly has the right to do whatever it wants with its very own private property. Nestor Royce is also already a landless lord throughout the entire series. All Littlefinger did was to give him a castle and some lands. That isn't the same as taken a castle and lands from a noble house to grant it to another and making them a lord in the process. That really seems to be the prerogative of the king.

I mean, apparently being granted a lordship is a huge issue even for foreigners in Essos - it is Cersei's promise to whoever brings her Tyrion's head. That would hardly be the case if any lord in the Realm had the right to create other lords and give them small parcels of lands.

 

You may be right when it comes to giving him the castle since it was a Arryn castle but why would the Lordship part be any different then any Lordship in Westeroes including Cersei offering one? 

Is Nestor's Lordship a lower level then a Lordship granted by the King ? I would think that if Littlefinger could create a Lordship then any Lord Paramount could .

[Blackfish Tully]

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

 

But i'm sure that every Lordship granted (including Nestor's) would probably need to eventually go to the King for final approval and the new Lord probably needs to go to the King when he can and offer fealty to make it 100% official.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

You may be right when it comes to giving him the castle since it was a Arryn castle but why would the Lordship part be any different then any Lordship in Westeroes including Cersei offering one? 

Is Nestor's Lordship a lower level then a Lordship granted by the King ? I would think that if Littlefinger could create a Lordship then any Lord Paramount could .

I'd agree but I think it depends on the realm. The Starks, Arryns and Lannisters are comfortably more secure in their roles as rulers of their realms. I'm guessing they have a greater autonomy than the other regions and are less likely to see repercussions for making new Lords.

The Riverlands (and Stormlands) during the Targ reign seem, to me at least, as extensions of the Crown with Kings rather than the Tullys giving out lands. Harrenhal seems to be the obvious example as does the lands constantly split between the Blackwoods and Brackens by Aegon IV.

[shizett]

I am convinced by the answers people gave me, but just to explain my point of view and how it is NOT related to the issue of justice but war:

• North, LR, and Vale were a power block.
• Westerlands, Crownlands, and Stormlands were another powerblock.
• Jon Arryn, Ned, and Robert were very close.

This would mean that they were doing OK against potential threat from the Reach and Dorne. Having Freys in the middle of the Northern power block and being strategically located and powerful enough would prove a problem if the Reach and Dorne started rebelling, since it would hinder all sorts of movements between the Northern power block.

This is why I kept insisting that not dealing with Freys is actually not a good idea, but I understand that if there is peace, there is probably little reason to chase after war.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

10 minutes ago, shizett said:

I am convinced by the answers people gave me, but just to explain my point of view and how it is NOT related to the issue of justice but war:

• North, LR, and Vale were a power block.
• Westerlands, Crownlands, and Stormlands were another powerblock.
• Jon Arryn, Ned, and Robert were very close.

This would mean that they were doing OK against potential threat from the Reach and Dorne. Having Freys in the middle of the Northern power block and being strategically located and powerful enough would prove a problem if the Reach and Dorne started rebelling, since it would hinder all sorts of movements between the Northern power block.

This is why I kept insisting that not dealing with Freys is actually not a good idea, but I understand that if there is peace, there is probably little reason to chase after war.

The Freys can raise 4,000 men and possibly more depending on how many soldiers their Vassal Lord Charlton can raise while the Rebels had around 35k before the Battle of the Trident.

The Rebel army would have been in the field for almost a year, taking the Twins means means another few months of war. Victory is not the problem but the expense and the further casualties it would take to beat the Freys.

Victory would be assured, but there is a chance it would be a pyrrhic victory with the new Crown vulnerable from the former royalists while a Targ Queen and Princlings are still on the loose. All it takes is for the new Crown not to look  strong for others to consider rebelling.

And then there is alliances the Freys might have themselves. Walder's third wife was a Crakehall. Walder's second son was married to Tywin's sister. His heir was married to a Lydden and one of his daughters married to the son of Lord Brax. He had strong ties to the Westerlands (one of the many reasons why Hoster disliked Walder) and was probably not a good idea to test those waters.

In fact it seems like there was some kind of collusion back then as the Freys and Lannisters both joined the war around the same time. Walder may have only picked a side when his son sent word to him which side Tywin was going to join.

[shizett]

3 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

And then there is alliances the Freys might have themselves. Walder's third wife was a Crakehall. Walder's second son was married to Tywin's sister. His heir was married to a Lydden and one of his daughters married to the son of Lord Brax. He had strong ties to the Westerlands (one of the many reasons why Hoster disliked Walder) and was probably not a good idea to test those waters.

In fact it seems like there was some kind of collusion back then as the Freys and Lannisters both joined the war around the same time. Walder may have only picked a side when his son sent word to him which side Tywin was going to join.

Of course, you are right. I don't know why I completely discarded Frey alliances. Thanks

[Eden-Mackenzie]

3 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

You may be right when it comes to giving him the castle since it was a Arryn castle but why would the Lordship part be any different then any Lordship in Westeroes including Cersei offering one? 

Is Nestor's Lordship a lower level then a Lordship granted by the King ? I would think that if Littlefinger could create a Lordship then any Lord Paramount could .

Littlefinger and Nestor Royce is an unusual situation though - as explained by Sansa, by signing the order in his own name, Littlefinger made Nestor's lordship contingent upon Petyr remaining in charge of the Vale. He was sent to the Vale to bring them under control of the Iron Throne, so any actions he takes which can be justified as accomplishing this goal will ultimately be approved by the Iron Throne, at least while Cersei and Tommen hold it.  

[Blackfish Tully]

4 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I'd agree but I think it depends on the realm. The Starks, Arryns and Lannisters are comfortably more secure in their roles as rulers of their realms. I'm guessing they have a greater autonomy than the other regions and are less likely to see repercussions for making new Lords.

The Riverlands (and Stormlands) during the Targ reign seem, to me at least, as extensions of the Crown with Kings rather than the Tullys giving out lands. Harrenhal seems to be the obvious example as does the lands constantly split between the Blackwoods and Brackens by Aegon IV.

Good points , i would think that it also depends on the situation , if Ned Stark wanted to strip a minor lord who had a small piece of land and very few soldiers of his lordship he would do it without bothering the King but if he wanted to strip a powerful lord like Bolton or Umber then he would probably want to go through the King.

[Lord Lannister]

My dear Lord Arryn,

My liege lord, Hooster Tully of Riverrun has slandered my noble house and placed unjust demands upon my lands. Now he threatens force against me undeservedly all because of fabrications of mine not having joined the him against the Targaryens swiftly enough. The hypocrisy of this is especially vexxing given many of his own houses openly supported the Targaryens whereas I remained faithful to my liege lord's will.

I implore upon you as Hand of the King to speak to the king to answer this travesty of justice. In exchange for your understanding and protection, I shall swear the Twins and all my lands to the Vale of Arryn and acknowledge you as my liege lord from this day forth. To consummate this pact, I shall offer you the hand of any of my daughters of your choosing. Heh.

Signed,

Lord Walder Frey

[Kaibaman]

I feel the greatest weakness of the Tullys is the fact that they seem to have the least amount of support from their own bannermen compared to the other great houses. It does make sense since the Targaryens are very popular in the Riverlands and at the time after Robert became king, if say Visery had returned with an army of sellswords a few months or a couple of years then things would get real difficulty for the Tullys once again. I think in Hoster's mind it was just better not to provoke the Freys and not waste soldiers and resources fighting them because if the Targs did return early then he would have to once again deal with many unruly bannermen loyal to the Targs, and this time he can count the Freys with their 4000 strong army among his list of enemies.

[Trigger Warning]

The Freys were late, if one of the Tully's most powerful vassals can be stripped of lands for that then every other lord in the Riverlands will be making alliances and plotting for that eventually. Turning up late for battle's barely a big deal in the balance of feudal power, Hoster feels secure enough to shit talk the Freys about it but he wouldn't dare more than that because it would set a precedent. You need better excuses to pull that than they sent men but were late, it would seem like nothing more than Hoster exploiting a minor excuse to seize a vassals holdings and as much as the Freys may be looked down upon messing with the rights of one vassal is threatening them all and the Freys have sharp teeth as it is. 

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

You may be right when it comes to giving him the castle since it was a Arryn castle but why would the Lordship part be any different then any Lordship in Westeroes including Cersei offering one? 

Is Nestor's Lordship a lower level then a Lordship granted by the King ? I would think that if Littlefinger could create a Lordship then any Lord Paramount could .

The point I was trying to make is that Nestor Royce already bears the title 'Lord' long before he Littlefinger gives him the Gates of the Moon. Whether he is a lord by courtesy or whether that title came with the office Jon Arryn gave him - High Steward of Vale, ruling the Vale of Arryn during his tenure as Hand of the King - isn't clear. But he styled and addressed as Lord both in the appendix and the text since AGoT, and he also has an heir of his own.

In that sense Littlefinger would only have added meat to his lordship - the Gates of the Moon - not exactly changed his rank or changed the feudal landscape of the Vale in a way involving a third party.

But then, this whole grant is very shaky indeed. All Nestor Royce has is Littlefinger's signature. King Tommen or any other king might not recognize that as sufficient enough should he ever come into a position of direct power in the Vale. And, more importantly, neither Robert Arryn (when he reaches adulthood) or Harrold Hardyng (should he ever inherit the Vale) had anything to do with that. The question whether a mere Lord Protector can give away castles held by the Arryns isn't clear at all. Lord Robert certainly could later claim that his stepfather didn't have the authority to do so. We should keep in mind that there is a difference between Lord Protector and Regent - with the latter usually having more power. Lysa named Littlefinger Lord Protector of the Vale but she still remained in charge of everything. Since her death Littlefinger is the highest authority in the Vale by default (and because he controls the Lord Arryn) but that doesn't mean his decrees have the same authority as those coming from Lord Arryn himself or his regent (which he no longer has).

[Blackfish Tully]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The point I was trying to make is that Nestor Royce already bears the title 'Lord' long before he Littlefinger gives him the Gates of the Moon. Whether he is a lord by courtesy or whether that title came with the office Jon Arryn gave him - High Steward of Vale, ruling the Vale of Arryn during his tenure as Hand of the King - isn't clear. But he styled and addressed as Lord both in the appendix and the text since AGoT, and he also has an heir of his own.

In that sense Littlefinger would only have added meat to his lordship - the Gates of the Moon - not exactly changed his rank or changed the feudal landscape of the Vale in a way involving a third party.

But then, this whole grant is very shaky indeed. All Nestor Royce has is Littlefinger's signature. King Tommen or any other king might not recognize that as sufficient enough should he ever come into a position of direct power in the Vale. And, more importantly, neither Robert Arryn (when he reaches adulthood) or Harrold Hardyng (should he ever inherit the Vale) had anything to do with that. The question whether a mere Lord Protector can give away castles held by the Arryns isn't clear at all. Lord Robert certainly could later claim that his stepfather didn't have the authority to do so. We should keep in mind that there is a difference between Lord Protector and Regent - with the latter usually having more power. Lysa named Littlefinger Lord Protector of the Vale but she still remained in charge of everything. Since her death Littlefinger is the highest authority in the Vale by default (and because he controls the Lord Arryn) but that doesn't mean his decrees have the same authority as those coming from Lord Arryn himself or his regent (which he no longer has).

The problem with trying to figure how all this works Westeroes is that Lordship seems to have no real defined rules . Varys is called Lord Varys but he has no lands, was Qyburn a lord when he was on the Small Council? or was Varys a special case ? Did Robert make Varys a lord or did people just start calling him that? Who decides on who can call themselves a Lord or not?  

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

The problem with trying to figure how all this works Westeroes is that Lordship seems to have no real defined rules . Varys is called Lord Varys but he has no lands, was Qyburn a lord when he was on the Small Council? or was Varys a special case ? Did Robert make Varys a lord or did people just start calling him that? Who decides on who can call themselves a Lord or not?  

Varys and Qyburn are both styled 'Lord' since they joined the Small Council but it is an empty honor. They have neither castles, nor lands, or levies. This is discussed early on. Varys would have gotten his title from Aerys, and Cersei later follows that example when she grants Qyburn the same title.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

5 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

The problem with trying to figure how all this works Westeroes is that Lordship seems to have no real defined rules . Varys is called Lord Varys but he has no lands, was Qyburn a lord when he was on the Small Council? or was Varys a special case ? Did Robert make Varys a lord or did people just start calling him that? Who decides on who can call themselves a Lord or not?  

Everyone sitting on the Small Council are called Lords.

"On that we agree, Lord Varys," she said. The title was but a courtesy due him as a council member; Varys was lord of nothing but the spiderweb, the master of none but his whisperers.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Yet the King comes before the High Lord. Which means that Aerys comes before Hoster. Hence Walder was right to wait. Why he should had endanger his family for Lyanna's and Rhaegar's folly?

[Blackfish Tully]

2 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Everyone sitting on the Small Council are called Lords.

"On that we agree, Lord Varys," she said. The title was but a courtesy due him as a council member; Varys was lord of nothing but the spiderweb, the master of none but his whisperers.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys and Qyburn are both styled 'Lord' since they joined the Small Council but it is an empty honor. They have neither castles, nor lands, or levies. This is discussed early on. Varys would have gotten his title from Aerys, and Cersei later follows that example when she grants Qyburn the same title.

What about Tyrion? he is called Lord Tyrion by several people before he gets on the Small Council . I just don't think that that the rules on who is called a Lord is  set in stone . Maybe everybody who is child of a Lord automatically is called Lord? 

 

Oh, I think that Lord Tyrion is quite a large man," Maester Aemon said from the far end of the table. He spoke softly, yet the high officers of the Night's Watch all fell quiet, the better to hear what the ancient had to say. "I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world."

The tall man peered down at the ground, and pretended to notice him. "The little lord Tyrion," he said. "My pardons. I did not see you standing there."

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

What about Tyrion? he is called Lord Tyrion by several people before he gets on the Small Council . I just don't think that that the rules on who is called a Lord is  set in stone . Maybe everybody who is child of a Lord automatically is called Lord? 

 

Oh, I think that Lord Tyrion is quite a large man," Maester Aemon said from the far end of the table. He spoke softly, yet the high officers of the Night's Watch all fell quiet, the better to hear what the ancient had to say. "I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world."

The tall man peered down at the ground, and pretended to notice him. "The little lord Tyrion," he said. "My pardons. I did not see you standing there."

I think we can disregard the Clegane remark as he is clearly mocking Tyrion.

Aemon may be a genuine mistake by GRRM or Aemon being super respectful to Tyrion considering his proximity to the Crown and the Wall's desperate need for more help.

Generally you can tell with GRRM if it is just case of being respectful (lower case l) or an actual Lord (capital L) and the appendices often confirm it one way or the other.

But that was a good spot.