The Dornishman's Wife Foreshadows Abel's Fate

[Arrow of the Morning]

For what we know about Ramsey and if the Pink Letter tells the truth, yes it was a foreshadowing. Mance is being flayed alive, his surviving speaar wives are meeting a much gruesome destiny.

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

It's such a minor and unimportant event in the story so I don't' see any reason why would GRRM be misleading us with switching Ulmer for the Smiling Knight. There's absolutely no plausible way that someone could come to that conclusion based on the info given and either way the outcome changes nothing. 

If anything, Ulmer was probably lying about the kiss to boast to the NW brothers. Might be that he was actually incompetent or galant during the ambush, which earned him a plea from the Princes when he asked to be given the Black. Elia was known to have a gentle heart, after all. Maybe he was still really young at that time. Even Tyrion who was found guilty of regicide and kinslaying might have been able to take the black. Either way I don't see how Ulmer surviving is so out of the ordinary. I think George simply wanted to have a surviving  member of the Kingswood Brotherhood as a means to convey some of their stories through him. 

I never got the impression that the "black steel" in the song was meant to be a synonym for a special one of a kind sword. It's either a symbolic connection of the blade being the death of the hero of the song or a hint that the blade was poisoned. Even if black steal could only be interpreted as Valyrian steel, I still don't see a problem. There might not be any Valyrian daggers in Dorne (or there might) but doesn't mean that the author of the song wouldn't embellish his story a bit. Also, just my hunch, but I'd say the song's probably a bit older than Arthur and Elia.  

Honestly It is just my crackpot. 

You know I am a rhaegar hater. 

So it is happy to imagine Elia and arthur had a secret affair behind his back, like arthur, Lancelot  and Guinevere. 

You know, it can even explain why young griff had a lighter purple eyes than rhaegar, because he took violet eyes from his real father arthur dayne, not indigo eyes from rhaegar. 

 

[Good Guy Garlan]

4 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Mance as an author I could understand, Ramsay too, but Mance and Ramsay? Can you elaborate?

Sure. My idea is that Ramsay caught Mance and was about to flay him or torture him, but Mance used the only bargaining chip he had left: he told Ramsay, among other things, that if he killed him, he'd had a field day getting rid of the wildlings that Jon was gonna let through the Wall. But if he let him live, Mance could see that the wildlings bent the knee to the Boltons. 

Jon says as much to Stannis, about how useful Mance could be to his cause:

"Your men call Val a princess, but to the free folk she is only the sister of their kings dead wife. If you force her to marry a man she does not want, she is like to slit his throat on their wedding night. Even if she accepts her husband, that does not mean the wildlings will follow him, or you. The only man who can bind them to your cause is Mance Rayder."

"You could make good use of Mance."

Of course, Stannis being Stannis didn't listen and we're left with Selyse's dumb attempts to get the wildlings to follow Gerrick Kingsblood. 

But maybe Ramsay is smarter than that. A long shot, but not if Roose is there too to lend some much needed sense to the proceedings. 

Of course, Ramsay would be pissed about Mance stealing his bride, but Mance can always blame Mel: "'Twas that red bitch, my lord. See this here ruby? With it, she can make a man dance as a puppet on strings. Use that sharp knife of yours to remove it, my lord, and I'll be your man true." (Mance can't take off the ruby himself but maybe someone else can: "Every day I think how easy it would be to pry it out, and every day I don’t")

So the Pink Letter. Here's why I think it was Mance's idea. That's his revenge against Stannis and Jon. They took everything from Mance, his wife, his son, his victory, and made him a little more than a slave. The hostages he's demanding in the Pink Letter are people he wants for personal reasons, because they mean something to him, and Jon and Stannis stole them from him - his son (who he doesn't know it's actually Gilly's baby) and his sister-in-law - and people important to Jon and Stannis, who he's taking to give them a taste of their own medicine - Jon's sister, Stannis' wife, daughter and mistress. Reek is like an afterthought for Mance, I can easily imagine Ramsay going "And Reek! I want my Reek back! I'm gonna write that down too!" and Mance rolling his eyes. Plus, Mance knows enough about the delicate political condition at the Wall to know that such a letter would divide the black brothers and cause trouble for Jon, especially if it includes the thing about Mance being kept in a cage at Winterfell. That serves two purposes: it makes Jon look like a liar and it lets Val and Tormund and the wildlings know that Mance is still alive. 

Now, would Mance really work with someone who flayed and killed all the spearwives? I think so, yeah, if it means getting his son back (I think Mance's original plan was to give "Arya" to Jon in exchange for his son, by the way). I think the idealistic Mance that cared about the wildlings as a whole is now gone, which is only natural after such a crushing defeat, and I think he meant what he said as Rattleshirt about the wildlings:

"Not me. I’m done with those bloody fools.” Rattleshirt tapped the ruby on his wrist."

I think he only cares about himself, his son and Val, and if he has to work with scum like Ramsay to get them back and screw Stannis and Jon over, well, so be it. 

[Hangover of the Morning]

33 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Honestly It is just my crackpot. 

You know I am a rhaegar hater. 

So it is happy to imagine Elia and arthur had a secret affair behind his back, like arthur, Lancelot  and Guinevere. 

You know, it can even explain why young griff had a lighter purple eyes than rhaegar, because he took violet eyes from his real father arthur dayne, not indigo eyes from rhaegar. 

 

I'm all for Elia & Arthur too, not because I don't like Rhaegar, but because it would really enrich their characters, particularly Arthur's as he would have been so conflicted about his feelings and duty for his friend and prince and his heart's desire, not to mention his role in the "kidnapping" of Lyanna.

Sadly, I just don't see any hints or cues pointing in that direction so it remains a "wishful thinking" on my part. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, TerrorVoid said:

Nope. Are you seriously consider that Mance was just siting there awaiting to be captured and tortured, while he knew, that his crew is going for a kidnap and he is a bait?

I'm pretty sure that Mance right now has defeated Ramsay:
1) He had sausages which disable dogs
2) He is right near back door
3) He knows the way to the crypts
4) Only one man can walk trough crypt ladder
5) Mance is the strongest fighter in WF by far. 

There is not a single chance he got caught.

Would the Mance have abandoned the two remaining spear wives to their fates? 

[Knight Of Winter]

19 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

snip

Hm...pretty interesting stuff.

But I think your theory would work better with Roose instead of Ramsay.

1) Mance is a high criminal here - he just captured Lady of WInterfell and spirited her away. When he is captured, soldiers will bring him not to Ramsay, but to the main honcho - Roose.

2) Ramsay is a pure sadist. There was not s single occasion where ha had the opportunity to inflict pain in others without consenquences, but refused to do so (ergo, he would surely just torture Mance to death without giving a damn). And we already know that he'll keep his sadistic ways even when it's far from politically opportune (how Northern lords who have to listen to FArya's constant cries).

This kind of careful political maneuvering and dealings smells way more like Roose than Ramsay, IMO.

 

Also:

3) why would Mance have such a drastic change of heart? Planning a revenge against Jon and Stannis is understandable, but selling wildlings' loyalty to Boltons goes pretty much against everything Mance stood up so far (he genuinely wants what's best for wildlings - that's why he leads them south, and he tells to Jon that they all will refuse to kneel to any lord)

4) Melisandre implies she has some degree of control over Mance. To the point where she tells Jon that Mance can't act against them.

 

Otherwise, pretty good read. I liked the idea of Mance exchanging Arya for his son.

[TerrorVoid]

21 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Would the Mance have abandoned the two remaining spear wives to their fates? 

Ofc. That's what is called "plan" and "playing your role in it".

[Good Guy Garlan]

21 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Hm...pretty interesting stuff.

But I think your theory would work better with Roose instead of Ramsay.

1) Mance is a high criminal here - he just captured Lady of WInterfell and spirited her away. When he is captured, soldiers will bring him not to Ramsay, but to the main honcho - Roose.

2) Ramsay is a pure sadist. There was not s single occasion where ha had the opportunity to inflict pain in others without consenquences, but refused to do so (ergo, he would surely just torture Mance to death without giving a damn). And we already know that he'll keep his sadistic ways even when it's far from politically opportune (how Northern lords who have to listen to FArya's constant cries).

This kind of careful political maneuvering and dealings smells way more like Roose than Ramsay, IMO.

 

Also:

3) why would Mance have such a drastic change of heart? Planning a revenge against Jon and Stannis is understandable, but selling wildlings' loyalty to Boltons goes pretty much against everything Mance stood up so far (he genuinely wants what's best for wildlings - that's why he leads them south, and he tells to Jon that they all will refuse to kneel to any lord)

4) Melisandre implies she has some degree of control over Mance. To the point where she tells Jon that Mance can't act against them.

 

Otherwise, pretty good read. I liked the idea of Mance exchanging Arya for his son.

Well, yeah, I imagine it could've been Roose and Ramsay and Mance and Steven! too, good point.

The thing is, I don't see it as Mance really selling the wildlings to the Boltons. Roose (and I agree with you that he should be involved) is smart enough to know it's better to just let the wildlings settle in the North and be done with it instead of having to fight them, so I'm assuming that's the deal Mance got for them. And if it's got Mance's seal of approval, they'll listen. Like, Stannis was adamant on killing Mance for deserting, but Roose is pragmatic enough to pardon him if it suits him. 

As for the ruby, we still don't know the exact mechanics of how it works, but like I said, we do know he can't take him off by himself. That's not a problem for Ramsay's knife, he'd just rip that ruby off along with some skin, but Mance would be free. 

 

[The Drunkard]

Stannis wasn't adamant on killing him, though. He put the responsibility for the burning on Mance for being too "stubborn" and "prideful", then spoke of the other wildling leaders as if they were his second choice.

"Whilst your brothers have been struggling to decide who shall lead them, I have been speaking with this Mance Rayder." He ground his teeth. "A stubbornman, that one, and prideful. He will leave me no choice but to give him to the flames. But we took other captives as well, other leaders..."

The other comments come weeks (days?) later after they've all made up their minds, but initially it seemed as if Stannis wanted to use Mance the way he did the others, but Mance wouldn't bend/beg forgiveness and so had to be executed.

Not that this necessarily refutes what you're saying, if you think his grudges trump his people.

 

[Warm Pie]

The problem with OP's theory is that there is no Dornishman's Wife at Winterfell.  Rescuing a woman is not the same as seducing her.

I agree that Mance escaped through the Lord's Door.

I really can't see Mance betraying Jon by writing the Pink Letter, after Jon went to such trouble to save his son.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, TerrorVoid said:

Nope. Are you seriously consider that Mance was just siting there awaiting to be captured and tortured, while he knew, that his crew is going for a kidnap and he is a bait?

I'm pretty sure that Mance right now has defeated Ramsay:
1) He had sausages which disable dogs
2) He is right near back door
3) He knows the way to the crypts
4) Only one man can walk trough crypt ladder
5) Mance is the strongest fighter in WF by far. 

There is not a single chance he got caught.

I just spit my coffee everywhere when I read this. Thank you

You guys are much better at decoding this Pink Letter than I am. There are just *tooo many flip-floppy clues to make sense of it 100% one way or another. It's almost like the north's version of the Meereenese knot.

As to the song, to me it is (again) one of those *grey area clues that can be applied to a few scenarios or characters. There are elements that point to Jon in there as well.

** These points here are one of the reasons why I hope that hidden meanings and prophecies are over with by the start of TWOW because we have enough... time to start revealing what's behind all of these curtains.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Why would sausages disable dogs?  Did he poison the sausages?  In short, I don't get the sausage stuff.  Hiding drugs under meat fools cops not dogs, if thats what made you think that.  To fool dogs you need to hurt their nose with peppers or something similar.  And your still not "fooling" them, your hurting them so they stop.

Also, no ladder in crypts, and when did Roose & Ramsay leave the hall so that Mance could use the lords door?  I don't believe that is in the text.

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Why would sausages disable dogs?  Did he poison the sausages?  In short, I don't get the sausage stuff.  Hiding drugs under meat fools cops not dogs, if thats what made you think that.  To fool dogs you need to hurt their nose with peppers or something similar.  And your still not "fooling" them, your hurting them so they stop.

Also, no ladder in crypts, and when did Roose & Ramsay leave the hall so that Mance could use the lords door?  I don't believe that is in the text.

I think it is more of a joking reference to dogs love meat and when you give them a treat they become your best friend

Kinda like in the olden movies of the 80's when a burglar brings a steak to the intended crime scene to distract the dogs from performing their guard duty.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

I think it is more of a joking reference to dogs love meat and when yo give them a treat then they become your best friend

Kinda like in the olden movies of the 80's when a burglar brings a steak to the intended crime scene to distract the dogs from performing their guard duty.

Did we see Mance feeding the hounds?  Basically I'm asking if it is entirely fan fiction or if there is some basis in the text.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Did we see Mance feeding the hounds?  Basically I'm asking if it is entirely fan fiction or if there is some basis in the text.

Gotcha. My mistake.

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Gotcha. My mistake.

No mistake on your part, I should have quoted Terrorvoid.  I have long argued against any theory other than Ramsay writing the letter, and the way he ended his statement with "no chance he got caught"  is an obvious indication that his statement is not fact based, as is the addition of a non existent ladder in the crypts, so I wanted to see if there was anything to the sausage part, there could be, but only if its in the text.

[Clegane'sPup]

12 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Why would sausages disable dogs?  Did he poison the sausages?  In short, I don't get the sausage stuff.  <snip>.

Most likely it was a auto spell/correct thing. Like distract instead of disable. I thought it was quite comical. I agree there's no ladder in the crypt, just a narrow stairway. I would suggest that with the commotion going on outside the hall people could be distracted enough that The Mance could make a getaway. Anyway, I needed the sausage comedy. <still chuckling>

[TerrorVoid]

33 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Why would sausages disable dogs?  Did he poison the sausages?  In short, I don't get the sausage stuff.  Hiding drugs under meat fools cops not dogs, if thats what made you think that.  To fool dogs you need to hurt their nose with peppers or something similar.  And your still not "fooling" them, your hurting them so they stop.

Also, no ladder in crypts, and when did Roose & Ramsay leave the hall so that Mance could use the lords door?  I don't believe that is in the text.

Quote

Ser Hosteen slammed his foot into the tabletop, knocking it off its trestles, back into Lord Wyman’s swollen belly. Cups and platters flew, sausages scattered everywhere, and a dozen Manderly men came cursing to their feet…

…Around him dogs fought over sausages…

…Even then the rafters still rang with shouts and prayers and curses, the shrieks of terrified horses and the growls of Ramsay’s bitches.

Even tough people are fighting, dogs are fighting over those sausages.
I find it quite likely, if Ramsey will chase Mance in the snowy labirinth, dogs will go after the sausages and not Mance.

[TerrorVoid]

16 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I agree there's no ladder in the crypt, just a narrow stairway.

Sorry, I thought, ladder=stairway.
I meant that only one person can go in a row, which is told to us 

Quote

He and Robb had fought many a heroic battle on these steps, slashing at one another with wooden swords. Good training, that; it brought home how hard it was to fight your way up a spiral stair against determined opposition. Ser Rodrik liked to say that one good man could hold a hundred, fighting down.

 

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

12 hours ago, LmL said:

Nah George said Rhaegar is dead. 

He said he was cremated, didn't he?  Did not say he was dead.  Maybe his ashes magically possessed some wildling, or he is giving the "official story" of what happened but it was not really Rhaegar's body that was cremated - or maybe Mance and Rhaegar had some connection that we don't know about, and Rhaegar WAS killed, but Lyanna was kidnapped by Mance in the guise of Rhaegar.