Seastone Chair, Weirwoods, & "Seven Times Never Kill Man"

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

14 hours ago, LmL said:

 Great job Blind Beth!

While I believe Martin when he says ASOIAF is not in the 1,000 worlds, it is clear that he has been developing many of the ideas in ASOIAF in all of his previous work. I've read a few, and every time I see something new about ASOIAF. 

I haven't read 7Times, but just from your capsule I can see that I must. That's some terrifying shit. The idea that the strange stone is actually keeping nature in balance by occasional horrific means definitely seems like it could fit the cotf, or the weirnet consciousness acting through the cotf, as it may be. 

As for the stone... there's a Lovecraftian baddie named Yig, the Father of Serpents, who like many Lovecraftian monsters, reaches through other dimensions and uses mind control to make people do horrible things. I think he is mixing this Yig with the more well known Yggdrasil lore to create some kind of fiery greenseer people - greenseers who became the first dragonlords, something like that. Everyone has noticed the frequent mingling of Old Gods magic and fire magic - Beric's cave, Jon Snow, Bloodraven, Mel (if she is BR's daughter), Ghost's affinity for Mel, and there are others - and I think what it's about, in a general way, is the creation of the "blood of the dragon" or dragonbonding or whatever, which I think came from a mutation of greenseer magic.

Somewhat on that topic, bitterblooms--the blue roses from the story "Bitterblooms" that grow in ice--are originally from a planet with multi-year winters called Ymir (named for the ancestor of all the Norse gods).

The world of "Bitterblooms" is an unnamed interregnum (i.e. low-tech) planet, and the bitterblooms have been imported from somewhere else--unnamed in the story but revealed in "The Stone City" to be Ymir. The flowers themselves don't seem to have mind control powers but they're associated with dreams, illusions, lovers, lies, and artificially long life.

A mysterious character wears them in her hair, which seems to touch on the motif of magical nature crowns, like the driftwood crown and the stag crown. And obviously Lyanna's crown of blue roses. And as per speculations, all of those crowns may be associated with greenseers in some way. 

Blue rose crown - Lyanna, of the Stark bloodline that can give rise to greenseers; notably she chooses a weirwood for her sigil as KotLT

Stag crown - associated with Green Men/Isle of Faces

Driftwood crown - may be associated with corrupted weirwood/greenseers

14 hours ago, LmL said:

Anyway, point is, he loves Norse myth and Lovecraft, and I think he's done something clever by combining attributes of "Yig" and "Yggdrasil." You'll notice the Storm God's thunderbolt set fire to the demon tree "Ygg." Surely that's a reference to weirwoods, which are based on Yggdrasil, but think about the symbolism of a flaming tree, and a flaming tree which represents the stealing of the fire of the gods no less. The Grey King also stole Nagga's fire.. but the real Sea Dragon was the moon meteor which drowns whole Islands, while the "ribs" of Nagga seem to be petrified weirwood.

I'm having trouble synthesizing the Storm God stuff with everything else. I think part of the problem is that while we've seen characters using fire magic and we've seen ice magic elementals, we have almost nothing solid to go on in regards to weather magic. It's just legends.

And the whole idea of stealing fire from the gods as part of Ironborn mythology is really weird if they were a branching-off of First Men, who clearly already had fire by the time they came to Westeros. So does fire really mean fire magic? Or are the Ironborn really something else and not First Men? If the OBS/weirwood/black weirwood material is influencing them, is it also putting the mythos of an older race into their minds as their own history?

I wonder if the "Storm God" was some kind of dragon? A massive dragon or (flock? herd? bevy?) of dragons whose wings whipped up the ocean's surface and drove ships out of control? If a dragon setting fire to a weirwood (combing the ww and dragonfire magics) gave the Ironborn some kind of enlightenment or power that they didn't have before? I mean the "fire" has to be something besides regular fire, right?  Since they were already seafaring people so they had to be well advanced beyond the discovery of regular fire.

Plus the idea of stealing Nagga's fire, and Nagga is said to be a dragon albeit a sea dragon. So it does seem like the big event of the mythology is something to do with dragonfire/fire magic, not regular fire. 

And the whole "what was Nagga really" question really stumps me as well. Was there really an ancient sea dragon that big? Like maybe it was a magical weapon of the GeotD? Do sea dragons even breathe fire? Was it a commet? Maybe a comet that hit the ocean, "drowned" the island, and the comet-polluted water killed the weirwoods that are now regarded as "Nagga's Ribs"? Or a comet struck an arm of land, turning it into an island chain, and the weirwoods died as a result of damage to their root system?

I just really don't know about any of that. The puzzle pieces around the origin of the Ironborn don't seem to want to fit each other, at least not in any clear way.

14 hours ago, LmL said:

So again, a mix of fire magic (the black moon meteors which drank the sun's fire and from which Lightbringer was made, according to me) and weirwood ideas. Grey King stole fire from the gods via a moon meteor - sounds like we are talking about the BSE Azor Ahai here - but also from a burning tree. The burning trees we see in a few places are symbolic of fiery greenseers, I believe. So, the way I make sense of all this is that Azor Ahai was a greenseer who transformed via "fire magic," aka the magic of the black meteor. He then became the "father of serpents." 

Not totally sure about the serpent thing. Although it does work with the Norse imagery--the serpent Jörmungandr, the "world snake" that wraps around the whole world under the ocean. And it's a sea snake which ties in with Nagga, sort of. The father of Jörmungandr is Loki, though I'm not sure if that helps. Azor Ahai isn't really a trickster figure. However Jörmungandr's arch-nemesis is Thor, god of thunder, aka Storm God. So that kind of does connect, at least to the Ironborn if not directly to AA.

14 hours ago, LmL said:

The reason I'm bringing all this up is because Lovecraft's Yig uses mind control. And George (if I am correct) is using these ideas with the oily black stone. So yeah - mind control or some kind of mental warping effect seems very plausible. I was already suspecting as much as it is, as it seems the OBS has some kind of magical toxicity. There's a line in a Damphair chapter about how much Balon has aged in only a few years of sitting on the chair, and of course the Grey King story has him living a thousand years and growing corpse like - so maybe there's some funky magic going on.

I also think it's interesting that when Theon first sees Balon sitting in the chair, he notes emphatically that he's completely wrapped in sealskin, which kind of screams "selkie". Yet another weird Seastone Chair thing. 

14 hours ago, LmL said:

If there's any kind of intention behind the hypothetical mental warping effects... sinister. Likely he won't tell us for sure, but who knows. Maybe we'll meet some fucked up  green men on the Isle of faces using their big black meteorite to work dark magic on people remotely or something. 

I tend to think Isle of Faces is regular greenseers...but maybe not. Some kind of un-greenseer faction does seem to be in play somewhere IMO.

14 hours ago, LmL said:

Thing is, the weirwood face on the Black Gate is described as a man who lived a thousand years, very like the Grey King - the descriptions seem to match (don't have the quotes handy).  And the Grey King sat on a throne of Nagga's fangs, and again, if Nagga's ribs are petrified weirwood, then we have the idea of Grey King sitting on a weirwood throne. So what I am seeing is a greenseer who called down the fire of the gods - which took the form of the moon meteors, which were the Hammer of the Waters, the Sea Dragon, and the Storm God's Thunderbolt - and transformed himself, possessing that fire of the gods. He was the father of serpents, or dragon people, more likely. Or one kind of dragon people. Something like that. 

Hopefully some of that is interesting / useful. Great post.

Aeron tells us crows are the creatures of the Storm God. And we know crows are closely associated with greenseers. So it seems that in some way greenseers = Storm God.

So if the Grey King was a greenseer, there seems to have been some parting of the ways since then, at least among Ironborn (who now see Storm God as an enemy), maybe between greenseer and un-greenseer (blueseer?) factions. You mention GK grew corpselike, which is certainly interesting...the first undead-greenseer/blueseer/Undying-type person? And does this relate to the Barrow King?

 

*picks up World of Ice and Fire and shakes it* WHAT'S GOING ON GEORGE?? JUST TELL US!!!

[The Dragon has three heads]

12 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Obviously...Ted 2 certainly felt like it lasted for a generation.

 

I haven't read The Glass Flower yet, or anything about Valyrian-looking people or genetic modification. But I'm blasting through Dreamsongs very quickly and should get there soon.

It's a really interesting story of a planet toward the galactic core called croandenni.  Basically it's an alien planet where this alien has an 'artefact' that allows the playing of a game called the game of mind.  Basically a body snatching PvP arena controlled by the mind lord, pain lord, lord of birth and death etc.

This alien was defeated by the main character many years before and she herself is currently inhabiting the body of a valyrian looking 11/12 year old girl.  Eventually a cyborg claiming to be the legendary Joachim Kleronemous turns up to try his hand at snatching a living body(his has long since rotted away and been replaced with mechanics).  The back and forth between the mind lord and her creatures as she tries to find out if the cyborg is who he says he is gives us some really interesting thousand worlds history.

There is also a weird creature there too, a "g'vhern hatchling" from memory, also playing the GOM but I think as a 'prize', not a player.   To me it screamed dragon/wyvern type creature.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

OK, reporting back on The Glass Flower...

Kind of a snoozefest, honestly. A lot of monologing and not much going on. Although if you're going to read it I recommend doing so right after "The Way of Cross and Dragon" because there is some subtle crossover between those two stories. Also both are kind of "big idea" stories, mostly being about the nature of truth, belief, humanity, life, death, the universe, and everything. (Cross & Dragon has a bit more plot though--but pretty much nothing to do with the ASOIAF world.) 

ASOIAF-relevant items from Glass Flower:

- obsidian: mentioned extensively, the main character "mind lord" has her castle made of obsidian. It's reflective properties are emphasized (but it's never referred to as greasy or oily, so no OBS clues there), she builds mirrors and mosaics of obsidian inside her castle.

- purple eyes/silver-gold hair: is noted as being the result of genetic manipulation for aesthetic purposes, but the how isn't explored and the girl in question doesn't have any special abilities. She is a 12-yr-old former sex slave in a current sexual relationship with a hot 30yo dude, though, so apparently creepy underage sex is part and parcel of GRRM's fascination with purple eyes and silvery hair.

- soul transfer: this is probably the most interesting/relevant bit, as the main point of the story is different characters trying to steal each other's bodies by forcing their own souls into them. The main character has been extending her life indefinitely by forcing her soul into younger bodies as she ages. Those who have their bodies stolen seem to remain in the body, but repressed and not in control, much like Hodor when Bran wargs him. This immortality-through-warging theme may somewhat support the Bolt-On theory.

And that's pretty much it. Plus about thirty pages of rambling about how glass flowers aren't really alive and can therefore never die. (I'm sorry if someone is a big fan of this story, it just really felt like a slog to me.)

[Jak Scaletongue]

Have you read "The Sandkings" story yet?  I've just read the synopsis on wikipedia, but it sounds creepy AF! 

I just might have to buy the Dreamsongs book...not that I need anything to read...damn WOT!

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Have you read "The Sandkings" story yet?  I've just read the synopsis on wikipedia, but it sounds creepy AF! 

I just might have to buy the Dreamsongs book...not that I need anything to read...damn WOT!

Not yet. "Sandkings" and "A Song for Lya" seem to be the fan faves of this collection. I loved "Song for Lya" so I'm kind of saving "Sandkings" for near the end to savor it.

Also, this isn't a Thousand Worlds story, but "In the Lost Lands" is kind of mind-blowing and also connects to some ASOIAF themes. When I finished I just kind of sat there reading the last two pages over and over saying "oh my god, oh wow, oh my god..."

I should just start a GRRM Short Fiction Appreciation thread, lol.

 

ETA: This is obviously just my opinion, but I would say Dreamsongs is a much better use of time than WoT.

[LmL]

3 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

OK, reporting back on The Glass Flower...

Kind of a snoozefest, honestly. A lot of monologing and not much going on. Although if you're going to read it I recommend doing so right after "The Way of Cross and Dragon" because there is some subtle crossover between those two stories. Also both are kind of "big idea" stories, mostly being about the nature of truth, belief, humanity, life, death, the universe, and everything. (Cross & Dragon has a bit more plot though--but pretty much nothing to do with the ASOIAF world.) 

ASOIAF-relevant items from Glass Flower:

- obsidian: mentioned extensively, the main character "mind lord" has her castle made of obsidian. It's reflective properties are emphasized (but it's never referred to as greasy or oily, so no OBS clues there), she builds mirrors and mosaics of obsidian inside her castle.

- purple eyes/silver-gold hair: is noted as being the result of genetic manipulation for aesthetic purposes, but the how isn't explored and the girl in question doesn't have any special abilities. She is a 12-yr-old former sex slave in a current sexual relationship with a hot 30yo dude, though, so apparently creepy underage sex is part and parcel of GRRM's fascination with purple eyes and silvery hair.

- soul transfer: this is probably the most interesting/relevant bit, as the main point of the story is different characters trying to steal each other's bodies by forcing their own souls into them. The main character has been extending her life indefinitely by forcing her soul into younger bodies as she ages. Those who have their bodies stolen seem to remain in the body, but repressed and not in control, much like Hodor when Bran wargs him. This immortality-through-warging theme may somewhat support the Bolt-On theory.

And that's pretty much it. Plus about thirty pages of rambling about how glass flowers aren't really alive and can therefore never die. (I'm sorry if someone is a big fan of this story, it just really felt like a slog to me.)

Uh yeah, Bolt-on much? I have a creeping feeling that one is actually happening. We've been given all the mechanics we need - we've seen Varymyr try to body snatch and fail because he was so weak, and the whole Bran-Hodor thing, so we know body snatching is possible. 

Roose's colorless eyes have to mean something, don't they? 

[Jak Scaletongue]

27 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Not yet. "Sandkings" and "A Song for Lya" seem to be the fan faves of this collection. I loved "Song for Lya" so I'm kind of saving "Sandkings" for near the end to savor it.

Also, this isn't a Thousand Worlds story, but "In the Lost Lands" is kind of mind-blowing and also connects to some ASOIAF themes. When I finished I just kind of sat there reading the last two pages over and over saying "oh my god, oh wow, oh my god..."

I should just start a GRRM Short Fiction Appreciation thread, lol.

 

ETA: This is obviously just my opinion, but I would say Dreamsongs is a much better use of time than WoT.

I'll have to look up the "Lost Lands" - and I think I know what present I'm asking for when my birthday rolls around!

I'm already 6 books in on WOT - can't stop now!  I'm pretty sure my brother would kill me!  He's been after me for years to read them, and he got soooo excited when I told him to bring me his copies!

[Jak Scaletongue]

13 minutes ago, LmL said:

Uh yeah, Bolt-on much? I have a creeping feeling that one is actually happening. We've been given all the mechanics we need - we've seen Varymyr try to body snatch and fail because he was so weak, and the whole Bran-Hodor thing, so we know body snatching is possible. 

Roose's colorless eyes have to mean something, don't they? 

At this point, I wouldn't really be surprised!

I've always had a little idea that maybe, just maybe, the "corpse queen" of the Night's King wasn't a Dustin, but a Bolton.  They've got a corpse right on their sigil!  I know all about why everyone seems to agree that it was a Dustin, and I have absolutely no evidence she might have been a Bolton, except the Westerosi habit of using the sigil to refer to the people of the house (Lannisters=lions; Starks=wolves; Targs=dragons).  If Sansa/Arya became Queen, they'd likely be known as the Wolf Queen (or something along those lines).  The Boltons are really the only house with a corpse as their sigil, right?  I understand the Dustin's are associated with death and corpses a bit, based on the supposed First King of the First Men barrow and the corpse-like curse that accompanies it, but it's not any closer of an association to corpses than the Bolton's are.  But it's a way to bring the Bolt-On theory (or a variant) into a place where the Others *could* have entered the Bolton's family tree...possibly...

That, and the maester's all seem to agree it was a Dustin, which instantly makes me look around and see what they might be missing!

And there's got to be a reason there's no recent evidence of a Bolton-Stark marriage.  I know the Stark tree doesn't go back that far, and I know it doesn't even go back as far as the most recent Bolton rebellion, but wouldn't they want to try to make sure the Bolton's don't revolt again?  There's lots of Glovers and Manderley's and other Northern houses represented on the Stark tree we do have and the Boltons really are their biggest competitor for the North.  The Manderley's are firmly Stark men, as Wylla points out - the odd marriage here and there has just reinforced it.  Where are the Bolton-Stark marriages to reinforce the Bolton's place in the North?  I suppose it's just as likely they didn't want the Bolton's getting their hands in the pie, so to speak, but that's as dangerous as letting them in once in while, too.  The last couple of generations seem to be lacking children the right ages to make a marriage, but all we've got to work with is Roose, Ramsay and Domeric, so...I dunno.  I've gone off on a completely off-topic tangent, so I'll stop before this turns into a book!

 

Take these ramblings with a grain of salt.  It's unresearched, cause I lack time!  It's all off the top of my head and with feeling!  Nor am I set and/or convinced by my own ramblings - they just intrigue me!

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

33 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

At this point, I wouldn't really be surprised!

I've always had a little idea that maybe, just maybe, the "corpse queen" of the Night's King wasn't a Dustin, but a Bolton.  They've got a corpse right on their sigil!  I know all about why everyone seems to agree that it was a Dustin, and I have absolutely no evidence she might have been a Bolton, except the Westerosi habit of using the sigil to refer to the people of the house (Lannisters=lions; Starks=wolves; Targs=dragons).  If Sansa/Arya became Queen, they'd likely be known as the Wolf Queen (or something along those lines).  The Boltons are really the only house with a corpse as their sigil, right?  I understand the Dustin's are associated with death and corpses a bit, based on the supposed First King of the First Men barrow and the corpse-like curse that accompanies it, but it's not any closer of an association to corpses than the Bolton's are.  But it's a way to bring the Bolt-On theory (or a variant) into a place where the Others *could* have entered the Bolton's family tree...possibly...

That, and the maester's all seem to agree it was a Dustin, which instantly makes me look around and see what they might be missing!

And there's got to be a reason there's no recent evidence of a Bolton-Stark marriage.  I know the Stark tree doesn't go back that far, and I know it doesn't even go back as far as the most recent Bolton rebellion, but wouldn't they want to try to make sure the Bolton's don't revolt again?  There's lots of Glovers and Manderley's and other Northern houses represented on the Stark tree we do have and the Boltons really are their biggest competitor for the North.  The Manderley's are firmly Stark men, as Wylla points out - the odd marriage here and there has just reinforced it.  Where are the Bolton-Stark marriages to reinforce the Bolton's place in the North?  I suppose it's just as likely they didn't want the Bolton's getting their hands in the pie, so to speak, but that's as dangerous as letting them in once in while, too.  The last couple of generations seem to be lacking children the right ages to make a marriage, but all we've got to work with is Roose, Ramsay and Domeric, so...I dunno.  I've gone off on a completely off-topic tangent, so I'll stop before this turns into a book!

 

Take these ramblings with a grain of salt.  It's unresearched, cause I lack time!  It's all off the top of my head and with feeling!  Nor am I set and/or convinced by my own ramblings - they just intrigue me!

Yeah we are getting very off topic, I might start a skinchanging post this evening.

But yeah, the divide between Bolton and Stark does seem to be more than just political.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

Uh yeah, Bolt-on much? I have a creeping feeling that one is actually happening. We've been given all the mechanics we need - we've seen Varymyr try to body snatch and fail because he was so weak, and the whole Bran-Hodor thing, so we know body snatching is possible. 

Roose's colorless eyes have to mean something, don't they? 

Yeah. You should read Skin Trade.

Ever since that one I've been making my peace with the Bolt-Ons.

[The Dragon has three heads]

 

6 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

OK, reporting back on The Glass Flower...

Kind of a snoozefest, honestly. A lot of monologing and not much going on. Although if you're going to read it I recommend doing so right after "The Way of Cross and Dragon" because there is some subtle crossover between those two stories. Also both are kind of "big idea" stories, mostly being about the nature of truth, belief, humanity, life, death, the universe, and everything. (Cross & Dragon has a bit more plot though--but pretty much nothing to do with the ASOIAF world.) 

ASOIAF-relevant items from Glass Flower:

- obsidian: mentioned extensively, the main character "mind lord" has her castle made of obsidian. It's reflective properties are emphasized (but it's never referred to as greasy or oily, so no OBS clues there), she builds mirrors and mosaics of obsidian inside her castle.

- purple eyes/silver-gold hair: is noted as being the result of genetic manipulation for aesthetic purposes, but the how isn't explored and the girl in question doesn't have any special abilities. She is a 12-yr-old former sex slave in a current sexual relationship with a hot 30yo dude, though, so apparently creepy underage sex is part and parcel of GRRM's fascination with purple eyes and silvery hair.

- soul transfer: this is probably the most interesting/relevant bit, as the main point of the story is different characters trying to steal each other's bodies by forcing their own souls into them. The main character has been extending her life indefinitely by forcing her soul into younger bodies as she ages. Those who have their bodies stolen seem to remain in the body, but repressed and not in control, much like Hodor when Bran wargs him. This immortality-through-warging theme may somewhat support the Bolt-On theory.

And that's pretty much it. Plus about thirty pages of rambling about how glass flowers aren't really alive and can therefore never die. (I'm sorry if someone is a big fan of this story, it just really felt like a slog to me.)

Haha I think I liked it so much because of the history and the fact Claudia black was doing the audio reading and I could listen to her talk about watching paint dry and find it interesting.  

And yeah underage valyrian sex is on the menu again but covered by fiat, as per...

Se is mentioned to be a descendant of a wealthy fallen trader family from Lilith where this type of look is common and Lilith hasn't had an interregnum as far as I know.

so far off topic, but hey, until we get winds we must do what we can to keep entertained/sane

[baelor breakspear]

On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 9:39 AM, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

So, actually thinking about it more, I do see one way Planetos might fit into the 1000 worlds, but not as an interregnum world and not in Hrangan space.

We see an interregnum world rather similar to Planetos in Bitterblooms. But despite the similarities it's clear that the underlying power in this story is science and technology, not magic. Ditto everything set in Hrangan space (to my knowledge, haven't read everything).

But there is another story, called The Stone City, set in the opposite direction of Hrangan space--toward the interior of the galaxy, into and past Fyndii (sp?) space. It's on a barren world called the crossworld that only has one population center, a port city built near a mysterious super-ancient stone city with mystical properties. The characters in the story are basically stuck on this world because once they arrived the technology of their ship more or less stopped working. The main character says several times "the rules are different here" and variations on that phrase. And from what we see it very much seems to be the case. 

So if a premise of the 1000 worlds is that the "rules," i.e. the rules of physics, mechanics, and reality, change as you travel in towards the center of the galaxy...maybe Planetos is what you end up with in the middle. 

From "The Stone City":

 

So, not saying Planetos = Prester, but *if* Planetos is part of the Thousand Worlds I think it's far in toward the mysterious core where "manworld" technology wouldn't work and the humans who landed would have to figure out a whole different set of "rules" for how reality works. I.e. magic. 

(Although it would be hilarious if the God-on-Earth was really named Walberg.)

 

I think the obvious answer is that prester does not exist. it is a take on the prester john myth, in that, somewhere in that uncivilized wilderness is a city/planet where one of us wandered to and set up with advanced technology. as the kingdom of prester john did not exist in our world, the planet of prester does not exist in the thousand worlds

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

19 hours ago, baelor breakspear said:

 

I think the obvious answer is that prester does not exist. it is a take on the prester john myth, in that, somewhere in that uncivilized wilderness is a city/planet where one of us wandered to and set up with advanced technology. as the kingdom of prester john did not exist in our world, the planet of prester does not exist in the thousand worlds

Well yes, that is the obvious answer. 

I don't think Planetos is one of the Thousand Worlds. My point is that, if it were, it would have to be in the mysterious core of the galaxy where the "rules" are different. Because Planetos clearly operates on magical principals and not science as we know it. It 100% could not be an interregnum world in human space, for example. 

But like I said, on balance I don't think it's in the same universe at all.