Would Cersei have cheated on Rhaegar?

[purple-eyes]

4 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Really, this is your evidence that Cersei liked of Melara and thought of her as a friend.

There really is no point in discussing anything with you. 

She indeed thought her as friend in his mind, if my English did not fail me.

By the way, even she did not think her as friend, does this mean she had to murder her?

Then we should stop discussing because we are not reading the same book.

You quote looks different from mine.

 

[Cas Stark]

We don't know any of that.

We don't know what Rhaegar and Lyanna's plan was, we don't know why they didn't send anyone messages or if they did, what happened to them.  We don't know if they were married or not or if they were going to run away to Volantis until the war started or whatever.  We have no idea.  The books don't tell us.

[Anath]

There's nothing to tell us that Lyanna considered all those deaths a steep price. You and even I think so because Ned loved her, so she must have been a good person. Ned is hardly objective. He lionizes Robert to Jon and we know he was uncomfortable with Robert approving the murder of children. He simply chose to rewrite Robert in his memory so he could keep loving him. Another great example is Lyanna's "surpassing beauty". No one else says she was particularly beautiful. But in Ned's eyes, she's near perfect.

The only price that was forced on her that we can reasonably conclude she regretted was Rhaegar's death since we presume she died clutching his roses. You postulate "the guilt she felt" as if we know for sure she felt guilt. I don't see it. All I see is that after getting to know what her romantic escapade cost, after getting to know that Rhaegar sided with the murderer of her father and brother and headed off to a battle that had a good chance of getting Ned and a good deal of her fellow Northerners killed (she was presumably so faithful to the North by defending Howland) she did not seem to have experienced the normal human wish to distance herself from the sordid affair. She kept clinging to Rhaegar instead. I don't see any guilt. Zero remorse. Someone who was truly horrified would have torn the symbol of the whole thing and thrown it away long ago. People blame themselves for things out of their control but I see zero evidence that Lyanna ever regretted a single thing she did on her own will. The roses aren't just a symbol of Rhaegar - they're a symbol of all they did.

We don't know what happened but in the light of what's been given, I don't see Lyanna as suffering any particular grief for anyone else than Rhaegar. And she certainly didn't mean to pay anything, no more than Cersei.

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

She indeed thought her as friend in his mind, if my English did not fail me.

By the way, even she did not think her as friend, does this mean she had to murder her?

Then we should stop discussing because we are not reading the same book.

You quote looks different from mine.

 

The quote you use has her ending with the belief that Melara was a schemer who taught her that no one could be trusted.  She and Melara had been friends, but after the prophecy, Cersei considered that she had betrayed her and was a conniving gold digger.

So you can't reasonably say that she and Melara were friends as the final end point.  The end point is Cersei decding Melara was an untrustworthy schemer who needs to die.  LOL

[Anath]

Cersei is impulsive. I find it totally believable that she might push Melara in that well and then miss her friend anyway, trying to soothe any remorse with telling herself that Mellara was untrustworthy. Doesn't mean she didn't kill her.

On the other hand, she didn't kill Sansa who also appeared in her thoughts in her walk of shame.

Still, with her proprietal instinct, I think she killed Mellara.

[purple-eyes]

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The quote you use has her ending with the belief that Melara was a schemer who taught her that no one could be trusted.  She and Melara had been friends, but after the prophecy, Cersei considered that she had betrayed her and was a conniving gold digger.

So you can't reasonably say that she and Melara were friends as the final end point.  The end point is Cersei decding Melara was an untrustworthy schemer who needs to die.  LOL

She did not say this in the quote.

[Little Lark]

1 minute ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Really, this is your evidence that Cersei liked of Melara and thought of her as a friend.

There really is no point in discussing anything with you. 

Yeah, when I read that quote I didn't get the impression that Cersei was thinking fondly of her at all.

Cersei is not particularly fond of other girls/women. She keeps them around because it's entertaining to have someone to gossip with but I don't think she has any real affection for them. Look at her relationship with Taena. Cersei loves having the Myrish woman around even though she thinks several times about how Taena is essentially a social climber and a whore. She even sexually assaults Taena while they are bed mates.

I don't see any evidence in the quote to support that Cersei cared for Melara, to me it seems more like she had a total disregard for her. 

[XSarellaX]

My guess is yes, she would have cheated eventually, but she would make sure to give Rhaegar trueborn heirs. Just because she would be attracted to that "Targaryens are better then everyone else" mentality, and wouldn't pass up the opportunity to have children from that lineage. 

The thing is, Cersei needs a lot of validation from others. She wants her husband to remind her that she is the most unique woman on Earth, more beautiful and special than anyone else, and do everything she wants to prove he believes it.

The first time Rhaegar said " no, my love, I'm not cutting off that girls hand just because she ran into Joffrey. It was an accident. Cersei, save us, she's five years old", her fantasies would be destroyed. She would go back to the only guy that would be willing to kill and/or maim anyone just because Cersei wants it, and that guy is Jaime.

[Cas Stark]

6 minutes ago, Anath said:

There's nothing to tell us that Lyanna considered all those deaths a steep price. You and even I think so because Ned loved her, so she must have been a good person. Ned is hardly objective. He lionizes Robert to Jon and we know he was uncomfortable with Robert approving the murder of children. He simply chose to rewrite Robert in his memory so he could keep loving him. Another great example is Lyanna's "surpassing beauty". No one else says she was particularly beautiful. But in Ned's eyes, she's near perfect.

The only price that was forced on her that we can reasonably conclude she regretted was Rhaegar's death since we presume she died clutching his roses. You postulate "the guilt she felt" as if we know for sure she felt guilt. I don't see it. All I see is that after getting to know what her romantic escapade cost, after getting to know that Rhaegar sided with the murderer of her father and brother and headed off to a battle that had a good chance of getting Ned and a good deal of her fellow Northerners killed (she was presumably so faithful to the North by defending Howland) she did not seem to have experienced the normal human wish to distance herself from the sordid affair. She kept clinging to Rhaegar instead. I don't see any guilt. Zero remorse. Someone who was truly horrified would have torn the symbol of the whole thing and thrown it away long ago. People blame themselves for things out of their control but I see zero evidence that Lyanna ever regretted a single thing she did on her own will.

We don't know what happened but in the light of what's been given, I don't see Lyanna as suffering any particular grief for anyone else than Rhaegar. And she certainly didn't mean to pay anything, no more than Cersei.

Well, I think Robert was a good person too.  He was deeply flawed and he let those flaws get the better of him as time went on, but I don't think Ned Stark's best friend would be a bad person, Ned Stark is too good of a person, and he's not as dumb as his detractors like to say...and we have Robert's mercy to those who opposed him as an example.  Ned also recognizes that his sister is wild, with the wolf blood, and that she would have taken up a sword if their father had let her...so it doesn't seem accurate to me that he did not know her.  He did know her, even to the point of knowing that Robert did NOT know her or understand her. I thought she was recognized as beautiful by lots of people, but maybe I am remembering wrong....isn't that another link w/Arya, that the kindly man tells her she's pretty....or whatever the line was?

Yes, I assume she felt terrible guilt at causing a war, though it's an assumption that is not in the text.  I don't see that feeling guilt though would have changed her feelings for Rhaegar, why would they?  It would be just as reasonable to cling to that love which had caused so much damage, which is what she did.

[Cas Stark]

6 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

She did not say this in the quote.

No.  We know she killed Melara because Maggy the Frog tells us this...and because Cersei remembers Melara screaming for her life after she was in the well, and Cersei seeing her drenched in water during the walk of shame.

This is all the evidence I need to conclude she pushed Melara in the well to keep her quiet about the prophecy.

[purple-eyes]

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Well, I think Robert was a good person too.  He was deeply flawed and he let those flaws get the better of him as time went on, but I don't think Ned Stark's best friend would be a bad person, Ned Stark is too good of a person, and he's not as dumb as his detractors like to say...and we have Robert's mercy to those who opposed him as an example.  Ned also recognizes that his sister is wild, with the wolf blood, and that she would have taken up a sword if their father had let her...so it doesn't seem accurate to me that he did not know her.  He did know her, even to the point of knowing that Robert did NOT know her or understand her. I thought she was recognized as beautiful by lots of people, but maybe I am remembering wrong....isn't that another link w/Arya, that the kindly man tells her she's pretty....or whatever the line was?

Yes, I assume she felt terrible guilt at causing a war, though it's an assumption that is not in the text.  I don't see that feeling guilt though would have changed her feelings for Rhaegar, why would they?  It would be just as reasonable to cling to that love which had caused so much damage, which is what she did.

I think one important point is that after knowing the deaths of Brandon and Rickard, Rhaegar still went to the war to fight with Ned and Robert and many many northern men whom rhaegar are ready and likely to kill. Which means, Rhaegar is ready to make Ned die.

Deaths of Brandon and Rickard may not change her love in Rhaegar, but his action to defend the murderer Aerys and also try to kill Ned and her people, should have diminish her love a little bit. But obviously not.

 

[Anath]

11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Well, I think Robert was a good person too.  He was deeply flawed and he let those flaws get the better of him as time went on, but I don't think Ned Stark's best friend would be a bad person, Ned Stark is too good of a person, and he's not as dumb as his detractors like to say...and we have Robert's mercy to those who opposed him as an example.  Ned also recognizes that his sister is wild, with the wolf blood, and that she would have taken up a sword if their father had let her...so it doesn't seem accurate to me that he did not know her.  He did know her, even to the point of knowing that Robert did NOT know her or understand her. I thought she was recognized as beautiful by lots of people, but maybe I am remembering wrong....isn't that another link w/Arya, that the kindly man tells her she's pretty....or whatever the line was?

Yes, I assume she felt terrible guilt at causing a war, though it's an assumption that is not in the text.  I don't see that feeling guilt though would have changed her feelings for Rhaegar, why would they?  It would be just as reasonable to cling to that love which had caused so much damage, which is what she did.

I agree that Robert was a good person, all in all. I think Lyanna was a decent person as well. But Ned idealizes Robert in a way that goes above his actual positive qualities. I guess the same is true about Lyanna. Ned always thinks of those he loves as being better than they are, expecting things that are out of their nature. Look at how he expected that Cat would keep Jon in Winterfell after he left.

Lyanna sure was pretty but the world book just describes her as a wild and boyish thing. Kevan Lannister seems to be struggling to me to understand why Rhaegar crowned her, so he settles for some "wild beauty". Ned seems to be the only one who thinks she was surpassingly lovely.

I can't see any guilt. Grief, yes, I assume she felt it. And no, people aren't reasonable like this. For months and years, they distance themselves from those they love if during their happy meetings something terrible took place. Something that they could have prevented if they had been there. They need months and years to get over it. Lyanna seems to be perfectly content with Rhaegar heading off to protect Rickard and Brandon's murderer and lead the army that might kill Ned. That doesn't seem like guilt to me. Frankly, I hope they were some other kind of roses because else, IMO Lyanna comes across as a cold-blooded monster without the excuses Cersei has for being evil, namely being a psychopath.

In fact, by what we know her arch reminds me of Jaime's: he wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne and he ended up the Smiling Knight instead. Lyanna wanted to be a knight and she ended up losing all that made her human except for the most basic instinct - her love for Rhaegar and Jon.

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

I think one important point is that after knowing the deaths of Brandon and Rickard, Rhaegar still went to the war to fight with Ned and Robert and many many northern men whom rhaegar are ready and likely to kill. Which means, Rhaegar is ready to make Ned die.

Deaths of Brandon and Rickard may not change her love in Rhaegar, but his action to defend the murderer Aerys and also try to kill Ned and her people, should have diminish her love a little bit. But obviously not.

 

What's his alternative?  Give up the crown?  I guess he could have done that, and left for Essos with Lyanna if she had lived, but that's a lot to ask of a prince who was raised to think that he's special and on top of that, who reads a prophecy that convinces him his child(ren) are necessary to save the world.

But, again, we don't know what is Plan A was.  Or if he had one.  It seems incredible that neither of them thought to leave word that Lyanna wasn't abducted and raped....maybe they did...and it was lost, and then it was all too late.  Or not.  The author hasn't told us

[Anath]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

What's his alternative?  Give up the crown?  I guess he could have done that, and left for Essos with Lyanna if she had lived, but that's a lot to ask of a prince who was raised to think that he's special and on top of that, who reads a prophecy that convinces him his child(ren) are necessary to save the world.

 

Does the girl who poured wine over Benjen's head and rushed to defend Howland sound like someone who would care for Rhaegar's so sensible explanations? Especially when in the troes of guilt, people tend to lose touch with reality. Lyanna must have been extremely cool-headed to understand Rhaegar's reasoning, accept it and keep clutching his roses waiting for the moment he'd come back, possibly having recently washed Ned's blood off his hands to comfort her with a hug.

She looks like something from a Greek tragedy in this scenario. Medea. Or perhaps Ixion's wife. Someone who, in the good old Greek traditions, allied with her chosen man over her birth family.

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, Anath said:

I agree that Robert was a good person, all in all. I think Lyanna was a decent person as well. But Ned idealizes Robert in a way that goes above his actual positive qualities. I guess the same is true about Lyanna. Ned always thinks of those he loves as being better than they are, expecting things that are out of their nature. Look at how he expected that Cat would keep Jon in Winterfell after he left.

Lyanna sure was pretty but the world book just describes her as a wild and boyish thing. Kevan Lannister seems to be struggling to me to understand why Rhaegar crowned her, so he settles for some "wild beauty". Ned seems to be the only one who thinks she was surpassingly lovely.

I can't see any guilt. Grief, yes, I assume she felt it. And no, people aren't reasonable like this. For months and years, they distance themselves from those they love if during their happy meetings something terrible took place. Something that they could have prevented if they had been there. They need months and years to get over it. Lyanna seems to be perfectly content with Rhaegar heading off to protect Rickard and Brandon's murderer and lead the army that might kill Ned. That doesn't seem like guilt to me. Frankly, I hope they were some other kind of roses because else, IMO Lyanna comes across as a cold-blooded monster without the excuses Cersei has for being evil, namely being a psychopath.

LOL, okay that's a fair a point about Cat, I had forgotten that.

I think Lyanna was supposed to be beautiful, but it's not worth arguing over, pretty, beautiful, wild beauty, they're pretty close to the same.  No one says anything negative like Jamie thinking about Jeyne Westerling not being worth it....

We don't see any guilt or grief, but I give her the benefit of the doubt there, that she would feel guilt for everything, otherwise she would be a POS, it's hard to reconcile the girl who stands up for Howland Reed with someone who would not feel guilt for getting their father, brother, lover, and thousands of other people killed due to their irresponsible act.

[purple-eyes]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

What's his alternative?  Give up the crown?  I guess he could have done that, and left for Essos with Lyanna if she had lived, but that's a lot to ask of a prince who was raised to think that he's special and on top of that, who reads a prophecy that convinces him his child(ren) are necessary to save the world.

But, again, we don't know what is Plan A was.  Or if he had one.  It seems incredible that neither of them thought to leave word that Lyanna wasn't abducted and raped....maybe they did...and it was lost, and then it was all too late.  Or not.  The author hasn't told us

Oh, some RLJ shippers already answered you this question:

Sure Rhaegar and Lyanna left a long and clear letter to explain everything!

But a 15-year-old near-death Little Finger stole that letter so that Brandon would behave like a moron!

Or that poor raven was accidentally killed by an eagle when it tried to reach Brandon!

 

 

[Anath]

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

We don't see any guilt or grief, but I give her the benefit of the doubt there, that she would feel guilt for everything, otherwise she would be a POS, it's hard to reconcile the girl who stands up for Howland Reed with someone who would not feel guilt for getting their father, brother, lover, and thousands of other people killed due to their irresponsible act.

Actually, that's one of the things that make me think that the essays discussing alternative parentage for Jon might have a point. An older woman who had known more tragedies and grief might have been able to separate her actions and guilt from her actual feelings for Rhaegar. But Lyanna wasn't experienced. She was impulsive. It's hard to be wise when you're a teen. And I get the vibe that she loved her family. Doesn't look like someone who would cling to the very thing that led to their destruction. And Howland who's clearly the source for Meera's story seems to deride the romantic version of Lyanna and Rhaegar, even saying that she "sniffled" at Rhaegar's song. Not "wept".

Didn't Paris say something that R+L was such an obvious answer for Jon's parentage and GRRM didn't do obvious? I don't remember but it would look more in line with Lyanna's character than the version of the romantic love that refuses to die. Nothing kills a love and good memories as quickly as a preventable death that can be tracked directly to the romance.

[Cas Stark]

Just now, Anath said:

Actually, that's one of the things that make me think that the essays discussing alternative parentage for Jon might have a point. An older woman who had known more tragedies and grief might have been able to separate her actions and guilt from her actual feelings for Rhaegar. But Lyanna wasn't experienced. She was impulsive. It's hard to be wise when you're a teen. And I get the vibe that she loved her family. Doesn't look like someone who would cling to the very thing that led to their destruction. And Howland who's clearly the source for Meera's story seems to deride the romantic version of Lyanna and Rhaegar, even saying that she "sniffled" at Rhaegar's song. Not "wept".

Didn't Paris say something that R+L was such an obvious answer for Jon's parentage and GRRM didn't do obvious? I don't remember but it would look more in line with Lyanna's character than the version of the romantic love that refuses to die. Nothing kills a love and good memories as quickly as a preventable death that can be tracked directly to the romance.

If they aren't Jon's parents, it's a huge troll on the author's part.  But, I just disagree that it's not possible to continue in your love even when that love has created other tragedies.  She wouldn't blame Rhaegar anyway, he didn't kill her brother and father, the mad king did.  I think it's very possible that you would cling ever harder to this love, because if it's not the love of your life and prophecy baby, then it was all for nothing.  Not say the reaction you subscribe to isn't possible also, it is, but it seems, with the dead roses clutched in her hand, and Rhaegar saying her name in his last breath, that they both stuck with the original vision of love that can't be denied.  That's my take anyway.

But that makes it even more absurd, back to the topic, that someone as shallow, cruel and vain as Cersei could ever have been happy with a romantic dreamer like Rhaegar.  Robert was hot when she married him too, but that didn't matter to her.  She may have taken longer to start hating rhaegar but she would have it sooner or later.

[Anath]

12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

If they aren't Jon's parents, it's a huge troll on the author's part.  But, I just disagree that it's not possible to continue in your love even when that love has created other tragedies.  She wouldn't blame Rhaegar anyway, he didn't kill her brother and father, the mad king did.  I think it's very possible that you would cling ever harder to this love, because if it's not the love of your life and prophecy baby, then it was all for nothing.  Not say the reaction you subscribe to isn't possible also, it is, but it seems, with the dead roses clutched in her hand, and Rhaegar saying her name in his last breath, that they both stuck with the original vision of love that can't be denied.  That's my take anyway.

But that makes it even more absurd, back to the topic, that someone as shallow, cruel and vain as Cersei could ever have been happy with a romantic dreamer like Rhaegar.  Robert was hot when she married him too, but that didn't matter to her.  She may have taken longer to start hating rhaegar but she would have it sooner or later.

I disagree about the troll part. There are just as many clues that distance Rhaegar and Lyanna as there are ones that gather them together (which is still my theory, BTW.) But I have a hard time seeing Lyanna as someone who thought, "Father and Brandon died, now I only have Rhaegar but I love him so much! It'll be sad if Ned and Ben die but my love is eternal!" At the moment, he's actively leading the army to something that he hopes will end up in Ned (and then Benjen, the last Stark man) dead or being given over to Aerys' sane judgment. It's hard for me to imagine she still thought it was worth it as she knew that. And if this was her mechanism of coping, it doesn't actually make her a good, decent person. That's the first step on her way of becoming something vile. But even if it was, it only comes to show that she didn't pay any price this high. And she wasn't intending to pay any price anyway. Presumably, she thought all would live happily ever after. She wasn't a brave rebel, she was a little girl playing a romantic princess just like she played swords with Benjen. I really can't see anything that can make her romantic elopement as such a better thing than Cersei's cheating. One of them had no idea what the hell she was doing, the other routinely lives in her own world where she stares at the mirror and sings, "Mirror, mirror on the wall..." Mind you, I am not comparing them as characters. Just in the terms of those particular action.

Cersei's problem came when the Jaime mirror broke. Of course she would have cheated on Rhaegar. She would have cheated on Jaime. Her vagina is her weapon and she uses it not only to gain profits but punish those she hates. She wanted Robert cuckolded. She would have cuckolded everyone when he fell short of her expectations to keep the mirror or be the mirror.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Yes. Also both would have cheated. Rhaegar left his first wife for Lyanna, and I don't see him staying with Cersei. Cersei would have cheated because she can, and Jaime is available and she enjoys fucking him, and because she is a vile character. She probably would have cheated in more idylic circumstances, but the circumstances here are actually bad. In comparison to her marriage with Robert, here there is immediately a bigger issue since Lyanna is alive and if events unfold with Harrenhal tournament and so on, Rhaegar is not going to stay put. At least with Robert, Lyanna was dead. So this marriage is going to self destruct probably faster than Robert Cersei, and to a bigger extend. Depending on how events unfold, Cersei might end up having to marry Robert again.

 

Unless by Rhaegar we don't mean Rhaegar the person but idealized Rhaegar as Cersei imagines him. Well, who knows what would happen if her delusions materialized, but I highly doubt she would bring anything but misery to actual people or that she would refrain from cheating.