'Ghost in the Shell' Live Action(?) Hollywood Edition

[The BlackBear]

Got to be honest I watched the animated for the first time a few weeks ago, I enjoyed it sure, but felt there was quite a bit of over praising going on from folks. I plan to re-watch as I've heard it gets better with multiple viewings, so reserve my right to reconsider. What really bothered me was how abruptly it ended.

[AndrewJ]

Yeah - I've seen the animated film once and that was many years ago. So my recollection of it isn't very strong.

But, for whatever it's worth - I'd suggest watching the live action movie first, without any of the pre-conceptions of what it should be. I think you'll possibly be more likely to enjoy the film in it's own right doing it that way. And then watch the animated film, which may or may not be lots better, but should at least be interesting to compare/contrast.

But this is all pure speculation on how the movie may turn out. For all I know, it could be an incredible adaptation and you'd enjoy it all the more from seeing the original first. (I just don't have a whole lot of faith in Hollywood ever producing an "incredible adaptation" of anything. I think they have more chance of them producing something that might be enjoyable in its own right, which people might appreciate less when comparing to the original)

[red snow]

I think if you haven't seen the film or the anime series then it's probably best to watch the film first - especially if you don't want to invest much time in it. It'll be easier to jusdge on its own merits.

As someone who's seen the film(s) and two of the series I think watching some of them prior will help just because I'll otherwise be distracted watching the live film thinking "have I seen this before" which is definitely what happened watching the 5 min preview.

As to whether the original was that big a deal - i think it was. You need to remember this was pre-Matrix and the aesthetic and style very much deserved the "if disney made Blade Runner" tagline. It's so long I can't really remember the plot but even at the time it was more a style and idea film than a plot one. The anime series works better for me in terms of story but lacks the iconic moments.

I've never read the manga but I always got the impression people regarded the anime movie as superior. I may be wrong?

[The Anti-Targ]

To be clear, I've seen the animated film twice, and I totally loved it. So it's just my son and niece who I need to guide in one direction or t'other.

 

[AndrewJ]

Ah yeah - I must have missed your last sentence and skipped right to answering.

But anyway... my advice still holds for your son and niece.

[Theda Baratheon]

I've only seen the original film twice. I don't love it but I do really like the way it looks and I like the look of the major. 

[Rippounet]

On 24/03/2017 at 1:21 AM, red snow said:

As to whether the original was that big a deal - i think it was. You need to remember this was pre-Matrix and the aesthetic and style very much deserved the "if disney made Blade Runner" tagline. It's so long I can't really remember the plot but even at the time it was more a style and idea film than a plot one. The anime series works better for me in terms of story but lacks the iconic moments.

I've never read the manga but I always got the impression people regarded the anime movie as superior. I may be wrong?

The films, the anime and the manga are all slightly different. GitS has something like a cult-following among anime/manga fans, not unlike Evangelion. And for similar reasons too... It's just, well... Deep. It's the kind of stuff for people who like brain masturbation.

For starters, the manga was published in 1989. Basically it's almost thirty years old and it's still visionary. It presented a very credible vision of what the world would look like around 2030, complete with political intrigues and metaphysical questions, but through the investigations of a team of cybernetized special forces/intelligence department whose members sometimes wonder whether they are still human, whether they still have something like a soul in their artificial body, a "ghost in the shell."
The 1995 movie basically took the best intrigue(s) and scenes from the manga and crammed it into 1h30. But it did so with amazing visuals and soundtrack, thus developing a unique atmosphere. At the time, the graphics and animation were almost groundbreaking.
The opening, which is a scene from the manga, became kind of legendary. It's generally referred to as 'making of a cyborg" : /watch?v=AsIQ_kA77b4
Then the anime (GitS: SAC) that started in 2002 went back to the original concept of the manga: a series of investigations, often unrelated. But it lost a lot of the depth of the original, and imho made too much effort to present the members of Section 9 as good guys. It's still rather cool. You've got plenty of nice action scenes. Just one example: watch?v=s0fzIAYRVAI
It also had the merit of properly introducing the tachikomas (the support tanks of Section 9, who have their own AI). They even had some specials with the tachikomas engaging in metaphysical debate: /watch?v=KGTXNQmJAkw
The 2004 movie built on its 1995 predecessor. Using one intrigue from the manga (not the same as the 1995 movie), it insisted on the metaphysics (perhaps too much). But it was once more an amazing feat technically and aesthetically. I would say it took about ten years for other animated movies to reach the level of quality of GitS: Innocence (with the possible exception of the FF movies). They had the balls to remake the same opening as the 1995 movie, but with improved graphics. To this day, there's few animated scenes combining such aesthetic quality and depth: watch?v=bc53Hya6iO0
(it no doubt inspired Westworld's opening and "making of a host": /watch?v=VqlJ0Mcx6zk )
And since then there's been a lot more stuff of course, each with its own flavor. I think I've almost seen/read everything, but it's still ongoing, with new stories about -among other things- the 4th World War of 2027 and what Motoko and Batou were doing at the time.
This is a visual for the record:

I've watched all the teasers and trailers for the live action and I believe I kind of see what they are shooting for. They took the same intrigue as the 1995 movie but introduced a separate subplot about Motoko's identity which contradicts the canon in several ways. I'm... skeptical.
Also, as much as I appreciate ScarJo, I'm not sure she's cold enough... She's still too human imho. The Major is supposed to be ice-cold. Literally machine-like. And I'm afraid the story will be significantly dubbed-down...

Anyway, not sure what's best to start with (it's really a matter of whether you prefer the action scenes or the metaphysics), but I would say it's  not the action movie, unless you want the Hollywood version of GITS .  One should start either with the 1989 manga, the 1995 movie or with the 2013 short movies about how Section 9 was founded (check this link and activate subtitles /watch?v=g1z3IV01g1U ).
 

[Pliskin]

I'm biased towards the show, so I must contradict somehow your description. The second season of GITS:SAC is perhaps the most "visionary" GITS, even though I don't like that word. Let's rather say the most relevant today, with the refugee crisis. It's also usually regarded as the best GITS iteration.

It's not a surprise that they took the character of Hideo Kuze (or someone looking like him at least, judging from the trailers) for the movie. What I got from the first trailers is that the movie is a mix of the first GITS film and the second season of the show. So I'm not bothered at all by ScarJo not being cold enough. The show's Motoko wasn't at all. And they can't have both a cold character and her backstory with Kuze, it just doesn't work.

[red snow]

nice run down rippounet - I'm definitely curious for your views on the live-action films now. Is the Arise series any good?

Have to say I'm with Pliskin in terms of favourite version (although I've only seen the first film, innocence and SAC) although I think it is a case of whether you like plot and character over aesthetics and philosophical debate (although i do recall SAC doing so just more on the nose than the cloud-like version in the films). Both had great music which I think was by the same artist/composer.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

On 3/23/2017 at 5:24 PM, The Anti-Targ said:

Funny thing is, I don't have a problem with Brie Larsen being Captain Marvel. The thing I struggle with is seeing her as Col. Carol Danvers. I think Brie lacks the military vibe, whereas I have no problem seeing Charlize as a senior military figure. Then again, I would never have seen Emily Blunt as a hard arsed soldier until I saw Edge of Tomorrow. So that doesn't mean Brie can't pull it off. Wouldn't have seen Linda Hamilton as a badass either, until T2.

Good point about Linda Hamilton. I'm not mad at Brie Laren as the pick for Capt. Marvel so much as I'm furious that Katee Sackhoff wasn't the pick. Basically anyone other than her is a distant runner-up for the role, IMHO.  #NotMyCptDanvers

On 3/23/2017 at 5:32 PM, The BlackBear said:

Got to be honest I watched the animated for the first time a few weeks ago, I enjoyed it sure, but felt there was quite a bit of over praising going on from folks. I plan to re-watch as I've heard it gets better with multiple viewings, so reserve my right to reconsider. What really bothered me was how abruptly it ended.

I can see that. I watched it for the first time on DVD back in the 90s after a few anime savvy friends told me about it. I liked it but wasn't blown away by it. Same thing with GITS:SAC. I watched S1 but never got around to S2. I also watched GITS 2: Innocence when it hit DVD in the US, but I found it pretty forgettable.

GITS was definitely ahead of its time back when the manga came out, but we've caught up with that in American cinema, so I feel like the live-action movie will probably come off as derivative to most audiences. However, all that being said, I love me some Scar Jo action and the trailers look on point. So I'll definitely see this in the theater and keep my fingers crossed that it's more "whoa" than "meh."

[Rippounet]

9 hours ago, Pliskin said:

So I'm not bothered at all by ScarJo not being cold enough. The show's Motoko wasn't at all.

Which is one of the things I'm not too fond of in the anime. In the manga Motoko was significantly colder. And I think this lack of human warmth is precisely what makes the whole metaphysical questioning around the presence of a "ghost in the shell" work. If Motoko is too human then there's no way the reader/viewer can take her soul-searching seriously. But I would say SAC sought to avoid the moral ambiguity that was hinted at in the manga.

9 hours ago, Pliskin said:

The second season of GITS:SAC is perhaps the most "visionary" GITS, even though I don't like that word. Let's rather say the most relevant today, with the refugee crisis. 

Oh, don't get me wrong it's a great story and I enjoyed it a lot. I think it went for one aspect of the manga while the movies went for another. It's still a great adaptation. And highly relevant today, indeed.

7 hours ago, red snow said:

nice run down rippounet - I'm definitely curious for your views on the live-action films now. Is the Arise series any good?

Imho yes, Arise is high quality GitS. I had to watch Ghost Pain twice to understand everything so it's perfect for my tastes.

Also, I may be wrong about this but according to the director:

Quote

SANDERS: No. To be honest, Kuze borrows a few facets from different characters in the series, he’s not just Kuze and he’s not just the Puppet Master. So he’s a kind of amalgamation, so the way he moves through the network and stuff is borrowed from other elements. He’s kind of our own creation, and Michael Pitt was incredibly immersed in that world. He went fully in there, he was living in a shipping container next to the set so he could smoke and punch punching bags simultaneously. He’d be like constantly skipping rope, he was incredible. He and Scarlett [Johansson] together were like these incredible specimens, but he was scrawling and drawing and he really immersed himself in the violence of the man and I think it’s an incredible performance.

Based on this and what we see in the trailer, I'd say the Kuze in the live action will be closer to the puppetmaster than SAC's Kuze. I could be mistaken of course... But I really don't think the movie's story will have anything to do with refugees.... And I'm not seeing the political undertones either. I could be wrong though.

[Calibandar]

So, I went to Amazon UK to find some dvd's of Ghost in the Shell series and man is it a confusing mess.

There seems to be a movie, a sequel, a series called Stand Alone Complex, another series of that, then something called Solid State Society, possibly even more.

What is worth seeing guys? I prefer more modern anime in terms of graphics but obviously story matters as well.

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, Calibandar said:

So, I went to Amazon UK to find some dvd's of Ghost in the Shell series and man is it a confusing mess.

There seems to be a movie, a sequel, a series called Stand Alone Complex, another series of that, then something called Solid State Society, possibly even more.

What is worth seeing guys? I prefer more modern anime in terms of graphics but obviously story matters as well.

If you like modern anime and haven't seen aything yet you should probably go for the series (SAC).
Solid State Society is... Kind of like a longer episode of SAC.

[Pliskin]

8 hours ago, Calibandar said:

What is worth seeing guys? I prefer more modern anime in terms of graphics but obviously story matters as well.

When it comes to graphics and animation, the films are of course leagues ahead of anything that would be produced for TV. Even if the show is top notch on that regard. The show CGI (GITS:SAC more or less started the current trend of mixing hand drawn animation with CGI mechas), as all CGI, didn't age well I guess and may look jarring now. But it's still better than most anime shows.

For story, I guess you'll have to turn to the show, even though most episodes are standalones. The first season is divided into episodes "standalone" (the name speaks for itself) and "complex" (the Laughing Man case). There is something similar for season 2, but with three different types of episodes (there are still the standalone ones, but the others concern two different but intertwined cases). Solid State Society is a sort of season 3 as a movie (and reprises elements of the Puppet Master of the first film).

The show and the films are completely independent, it's not the same canon/universe. The characters can be very different.

[red snow]

There's Stand alone complex season 1 and 2 and then Solid State Society. That's one "universe"

Then there's the "Arise" TV/DVD series which is in it's own continuity and unrelated.

Then there are the original films Ghost in the Shell and Ghost in the Shell: Innocence although I was never fully convinced they were that connected if memory serves.

I agree it's a mess although I guess it's no more confusing than all the versions of Batman we have running around on the big and small screen.

[williamjm]

10 hours ago, red snow said:

There's Stand alone complex season 1 and 2 and then Solid State Society. That's one "universe"

Then there's the "Arise" TV/DVD series which is in it's own continuity and unrelated.

Then there are the original films Ghost in the Shell and Ghost in the Shell: Innocence although I was never fully convinced they were that connected if memory serves.

I agree it's a mess although I guess it's no more confusing than all the versions of Batman we have running around on the big and small screen.

There's also Ghost in the Shell 2.0 which is confusingly not a sequel to Ghost in the Shell but instead a remastered version of the original film with added CGI animation. I do have a copy of it on DVD (mainly because it also came with the original cut of the film which I didn't have already), but it sounds like a dubious idea so I've never watched it.

[karaddin]

I watched a really good run down by a youtuber I enjoy that discussed the various versions of it, with a particular focus on the large tonal shifts that occur with each different iteration. He's very positive on the manga and the original movie despite viewing them as so different tonally that they may as well not be the same story, his pick for the best overall package is the Stand Alone Complex series though.

ETA: I haven't watched any of it in a long long time and don't remember enough to have opinions of my own. That shaped what I'll probably watch again though.

[Red Tiger]

Welp, just saw the fillm.

Spoiler

All I can say is that I thought it was mediocre. Kuze/Puppet Master is in the end underwhelming as fuck. Motoko Kusanagi is off course the real name of "Miria", but its played like a huge revelation even though the trailer and the absolute basics of the source material made that obvious. The real villain, the classic corrupt corporate executive, Cutter, is one-dimensional and not the least bit compelling. The doctor Ouelet plays up the motherly scientist role, but not much else. She was in on the evil plot, but it's not like she wanted it, she takes turns being Cutter's puppet and Motoko's mommy. Pilou seems to be having some fun as Batou, I will give him props for that and Beat Kitano does a pretty good job as Aramaki. Scarjo? Good job, wish you had better material to work with.

 

[The Anti-Targ]

On 15/03/2017 at 11:07 AM, The Anti-Targ said:

I think I'm going to be review lead on this. If it gets very good/great reviews I'll go see it, white washing notwithstanding. If the reviews are less than very good then I'll give it a miss in theatres. I might try to eventually watch it in a way that does not cause me to directly give financial aid to a white washed adaptation. If it reviews poorly I'll forget that it exists.

 

Now that reviews are starting to come in, including @Red Tiger's,I thought I'd better remind myself about what I'd decided re paying to see this movie.

So, reviews are suggesting the movie is good / OK, but nothing great. So, in-keeping with my previous statement (which is why I've quoted myself), I'll be passing on the movie in theatres and seeing about watching it via some other medium some time down the track. Fortunately I can read everyone's spoilery comments since having seen the animated movie I'm not exactly going to have the experience ruined once I do get around to watching.

I guess at least for the New Zealand input into this movie (the visuals), reviews are mostly very positive. So there is that at least. Studios will still be throwing work our way, and our daily newspapers will still be able to occasionally gush about a Hollywood A-lister swanning into and then out of town for a movie shoot. It's not much, but it is the opiate that keeps us distracted from the really important things that are going on, or not going on.

[Red Tiger]

28 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Now that reviews are starting to come in, including @Red Tiger's,I thought I'd better remind myself about what I'd decided re paying to see this movie.

So, reviews are suggesting the movie is good / OK, but nothing great. So, in-keeping with my previous statement (which is why I've quoted myself), I'll be passing on the movie in theatres and seeing about watching it via some other medium some time down the track. Fortunately I can read everyone's spoilery comments since having seen the animated movie I'm not exactly going to have the experience ruined once I do get around to watching.

I guess at least for the New Zealand input into this movie (the visuals), reviews are mostly very positive. So there is that at least. Studios will still be throwing work our way, and our daily newspapers will still be able to occasionally gush about a Hollywood A-lister swanning into and then out of town for a movie shoot. It's not much, but it is the opiate that keeps us distracted from the really important things that are going on, or not going on.

Oh the visuals are very, very nice. It's just that I place more weight on characters and story. It's just my view of the film, my criteria is very different and you might absolutely love it.