Frey family reunion

Tyrion is the manticore, the son of Oberyn Martell and grandson of Aerys Targaryen??

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Tyrion is the bastard son of Oberyn, who in turn is the bastard son of Aerys, making Tyrion the manticore.  

I've always found GRRM's prevelant use of the manticore imagery fairly odd. It's a Persian mythological creature, supposedly with the body of a lion, the head of a man, the tail of a scorpion or a dragon, and the wings of a bat. It also is known to shoot barbs from it's tail as if they were arrows (or crossbow bolts). It falls into the class of mythical creatures called a chimera (a conglomeration of various creatures). In some literature it has been considered to be associated with the Sphinx, since both possessed the body of a lion and a human face. One of the gargoyles that Davos views at Dragonstone ("sprouted from the castle's battlements as if they'd grown there") is a manticore. In the series, Amory Lorch, the one who kills Rhaegar's daughter bears the manticore sigil, and a "manticore" is what nearly stings Daenaerys when the sorrowful man gives her decorative box containing the creature.

I strongly believe that Tyrion is going to be one of the characters who makes up The Prince that was Promised role. To fill the role, Tyrion needs to be descended from Aerys and/or Rahella. I think GRRM is being too overt (especially in the world book) that Aerys may have forced himself on Joanna, so I tend to doubt that Aerys is Tyrion's father. But it occurred to me, that Aerys could be Tyrion's grandfather.

Let's start with Oberyn and whether or not he could be the child of Aerys. 1. Doran notes that after he was born, his mother had many miscarriages until later in life when she gives birth to Elia and then shortly thereafter Oberyn. 2. Oberyn and Elia are roughly of age with Rhaegar's, which means they were born shortly after Aerys and Rahella married. Their mother was one of Rahella's ladies in waiting along with Joanna. 3. The world book (yes, I know) in speaking of Aerys' interest in Joanna, mentions that Rahella had complained of Aerys having been turning her ladies into his whores. If in fact Joanna was not one of Aerys' "whores" then I wonder if perhaps Doran's mother was. 4. Shortly after Doran's mother would have gone to King's Landing to become one of Rahella's ladies in waiting she gives birth to two children after years of previous miscarriages. 5. Aerys sends Lord Baratheon on a mission to Essos to find a suitable bride for Rhaegar. He turns down Cersei as a suitable mate. Yet he agrees to marry Rhaegar to sickly Elia? It doesn't make much sense, unless of course Aerys knows that the Princess of Dorne's daughter is in fact his child. Then all of a sudden, Elia becomes a suitable bride for Rhaegar. 6. When Oberyn tells Tyrion of his trip to Casterly Rock, he tells Tyrion that he went with his mother, his sister, and his mother's "consort". I wonder if perhaps that Oberyn knows that his mother's husband was not his father, which is why he refers to him as her "consort"? 7. Finally, Oberyn's Targaryen parentage may explain his rounding up of his "Sand Snakes". He is seeking out other mates with Targaryen heritage and gathering their children, perhaps as potential dragon riders or dragon hatchers.

Now I'm much more convinced of the first part of my theory then I am of the second part. I think Oberyn would have had the opportunity to have been in contact with Joanna at the time of Tyrion's birth. Oberyn's mother and Joanna were very close. Tyrion was born roughly 9 months after a major tournament in King's Landing which could have very well brought the Martells and Lannisters back in contact with each other. Now Oberyn would have been young, probably 14 years of age. But of course, Oberyn was caught at the age of 16 with Lord Yronwood's paramour, so Obeyn was probably sexually active at an early age. This may also explain Tyrion's black hair in his beard, and his "evil" black eye. He inherited these "chimera" traits from his father Oberyn.It may also explain why Oberyn and Elia took such a strong interest in seeing Tyrion when they travelled to King's Landing  Casterly Rock and perhaps even helps explain why Oberyn championed Tyrion. Now, I know he had other motives for both actions, but Martin often seems to give his characters secondary ulterior motives, hidden by the more obvious motives in the texts. It also gives some additional resonance to Oberyn telling Tyrion that his father won't live forever right before he agrees to champion Tyrion against the Mountain. Once again, I understand that Oberyn very well could have been responsible for poisoning Tywin, but once again double meanings are not uncommon in this series.

Now why does this make Tyrion the manticore? Well we have a creature with the body of a lion (obvious) and the tail of a dragon or a scorpion. If Oberyn is half a dragon then it explains the dragon imagery. I think Oberyn also supplies the scorpion imagery. Oberyn tells Tyrion the story of the Martell lord killed by a canopy full of scorpions, he gives Joffrey a red gold Scorpion scarab, he was also the ward of Lord Qorgyle, whose sigil is the scorpion. Finally he even fights like a scorpion, jabbing the Mountain with his poisoned spear fighting like a scorpion would fight with his poisoned tail.  

The Manticore has also been linked to the Sphinx, both being middle eastern creatures with the body of a lion and the head of a man. Tyrion has obvious Sphinx imagery. The manticore is also a type of Chimera, and Tyrion is gentically a "chimera" possessing hair of different color and two eyes of different color. The manticore also was reputed to fire barbs from his tail, and of course Tyrion kills his father with a type of barb, a crossbow bolt.

If the imagery is correct, then Tyrion is a type of poisoned gift, much like the gift of the manticore that the sorrowful man gives to Danaerys. Note after Illyrio gives Tyrion to Duck and Haldon, to bring to Young Griff, he tells them to tell Young Griff how he is "sorry" for not being able to make Young Griff's wedding.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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Very innovative!

But Doran is around 10 years older than Elia, so Elia's mother is likely a middle-aged woman already when Elia was born, it sounds hard for a 16-year old Aerys to love/rape a 26-year old woman? it is possible, but......

 

 

 

 

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Why would Dorans mom still be a lady in waiting after having a child tho?  Kind of defies the purpose no?  If ur gettin it, you aint waiten for it.

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i like the possibility of this. but i dont like how all these characters knew this information. its much better if its happenstance

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The Prince that was Promised doesn't come from the line of Aerys "and/or" Rhaella. He comes from the line of Aerys AND Rhaella. That's why Jahaerys married them. 

But yeah, prophecy is treacherous, etc, etc. 

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1 minute ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

The Prince that was Promised doesn't come from the line of Aerys "and/or" Rhaella. He comes from the line of Aerys AND Rhaella. That's why Jahaerys married them. 

But yeah, prophecy is treacherous, etc, etc. 

Actually, if Aerys married joanna and got Rhaegar, Rhaella married Bonifer and get a daughter.

Then rhaegar married this daughter who is his first cousin.

Then they got some children, can we say these children are from line of Aerys and Rhaella?

I think so.

Too bad Jaehaerys misunderstood it.

He could make two love matches for his children.

 

 

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Just now, purple-eyes said:

Actually, if Aerys married joanna and got Rhaegar, Rhaella married Bonifer and get a daughter.

Then rhaegar married this daughter who is his first cousin.

Then they got some children, can we say these children are from line of Aerys and Rhaella?

I think so.

Too bad Jaehaerys misunderstood it.

He could make two love matches for his children.

 

 

So you're saying Tyrion and Dany's kid would be tPtwP? ;)

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16 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

So you're saying Tyrion and Dany's kid would be tPtwP? ;)

Oh, I think it is still Jon Snow.

In this case, Rhaegar is bastard son of Rhaella and Bonifer.

Lyanna is bastard daughter of Aerys and Lyarra Stark.

This is why Rhaegar is so desperately to sleep with Lyanna.

This is the only way to combine Aerys and Rhaella's line at his time.

Tyrion and Dany (in this case, daughter of Rhaella and Lewyn) could work, but Rhaegar had no idea Dany would be born.

 

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7 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

The Prince that was Promised doesn't come from the line of Aerys "and/or" Rhaella. He comes from the line of Aerys AND Rhaella. That's why Jahaerys married them. 

But yeah, prophecy is treacherous, etc, etc. 

It's a good question, and I think this is where Martin gets pretty clever.  My thought is that the PTWP is a sacrifice and the consciousness of the sacrifice takes up a second life within a dragon.  My guess is there will be more than one consciousness taking up residence in the dragon (after all the dragon has three heads).  Tyrion is one of the consciousnesses in the dragon, one or two of the other consciousnesses will be an illigetimate child of Rahella or a descendant of an illigetimate child of Rahella.  Thus TPTWP will be more than one person at least one descended from Aerys and one descended from Rahella.

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9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Tyrion was born roughly 9 months after a major tournament in King's Landing which could have very well brought the Martells and Lannisters back in contact with each other. 

One little thing, but this timeframe of 9 months is not mentioned anywhere in any of the material we have. The tourney was in 272 AC, Tyrion's birth in 273 AC. That's all we have about the timing.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Joanna had already passed and Tyrion was already born by the time the Martell crew visited the Rock. Wasn't it the last castle they visited in their long tour to search for matches?

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Just now, Snoop Arryn said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Joanna had already passed and Tyrion was already born by the time the Martell crew visited the Rock. Wasn't it the last castle they visited in their long tour to search for matches?

That is completely correct.

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9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Then all of a sudden, Elia becomes a suitable bride for Rhaegar... Finally, Oberyn's Targaryen parentage may explain his rounding up of his "Sand Snakes". He is seeking out other mates with Targaryen heritage and gathering their children, perhaps as potential dragon riders or dragon hatchers.

It's well known that the Martells have Targaryen blood.

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2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

One little thing, but this timeframe of 9 months is not mentioned anywhere in any of the material we have. The tourney was in 272 AC, Tyrion's birth in 273 AC. That's all we have about the timing.

Understood, but Martin is leaving open the possibility that Tyrion's conception could have occurred at a time when Joanna could have been in King's Landing and in contact with a number of people from different Houses.

2 hours ago, Snoop Arryn said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Joanna had already passed and Tyrion was already born by the time the Martell crew visited the Rock. Wasn't it the last castle they visited in their long tour to search for matches?

I'm not arguing that they traveled to Casterly Rock because of Tyrion, I'm arguing that Elia and Oberyn (especially Oberyn) may have made the trip down to Tyrion's nursery while at Casterly Rock to gaze upon Oberyn's possible handiwork.

2 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

It's well known that the Martells have Targaryen blood.

The Martell's known Targaryen blood dates all the way to back to Year 187, so it's doubtful that this would have been sufficient to have satisfied Aerys that Elia would have been a good match for Rhaegar.  It becomes more likely that Aerys would have approved of the match if he believed that Elia was his daughter.

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52 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Understood, but Martin is leaving open the possibility that Tyrion's conception could have occurred at a time when Joanna could have been in King's Landing and in contact with a number of people from different Houses.

He's leaving open the possibility, yes, I agree. But I don't think it is fair to present that fact as "the tourney occured roughly nine months before Tyrion's birth". You are implying that we know the timeframe, even though we do not.

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15 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Very innovative!

But Doran is around 10 years older than Elia, so Elia's mother is likely a middle-aged woman already when Elia was born, it sounds hard for a 16-year old Aerys to love/rape a 26-year old woman? it is possible, but......

 

 

 

 

I don't really have a problem with 16 year old Aerys having his way with Doran's mother even if she was 26 at the time.  And remember this is before Aerys started to go batshit and letting his hygiene go, so perhaps the attraction was mutual. 

Now, I'm a little more hesitant about the second part of my theory especially since it relies on a 14 year old Oberyn getting with Joanna.

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On ‎1‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 10:24 PM, Frey family reunion said:

...


If the imagery is correct, then Tyrion is a type of poisoned gift, much like the gift of the manticore that the sorrowful man gives to Danaerys. Note after Illyrio gives Tyrion to Duck and Haldon, to bring to Young Griff, he tells them to tell Young Griff how he is "sorry" for not being able to make Young Griff's wedding.

Nice catch.  Tyrion leads indirectly to Jon Connington's infection of greyscale, both by calling out Young Griff as Aegon Targaryen (which caused the Stone Men to attack the boat) and by falling into the water (which is possibly how Connington gets infected).  Poisonous indeed. 

I'd also like to note that there is a (potential, if my theory is correct) foreshadowing of death in this scene.  In this scene, Illyrio mentions "candied gingers."  From what I've seen, ginger appears to be an ill omen, potentially for death.  Gingered food is eaten at the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding, at Butterwell's wedding feast in TMK, and during Daenerys breakfast just before the first Pale Mare victim is reported to her.  Arya also notes Jaqen H'ghar as smelling live ginger, Cersei notes the smell of ginger in Maggi's tent, and Areo Hotah reminisces of Norvos smelling of ginger in The Captain of the Guard and kills Arys Oakheart in The Queenmaker, the next chapter he appears in.

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I appreciate your concentration on the importance of the manticore. Too often readers assumes it has to do with House Lorch, which doesn't make much sense. But I have a completely different explanation for it...

As Daenerys enters Qarth, she passes under an arch of green, black, and blue snakes...

Quote

All the colors that had been missing from Vaes Tolorro had found their way to Qarth; buildings crowded about her fantastical as a fever dream in shades of rose, violet, and umber. She passed under a bronze arch fashioned in the likeness of two snakesmating, their scales delicate flakes of jade, obsidian, and lapis lazuli. Slim towers stood taller than any Dany had ever seen, and elaborate fountains filled every square, wrought in the shapes of griffins and dragons and manticores.

Daenerys II, Clash

The colors of the snskes are symbolic. The first time were hear about Azor Ahai, Patchface adds a little color commentary..

Quote

"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire aburning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

 

Stannis Baratheon strode forward like a soldier marching into battle. ... Behind, Davos heard a faint clank and clatter of bells. "Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black," Patchface sang somewhere. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

What the [email protected]$k, Patches? Why did The George stick that in there? Not a lot of folks here have tried to answer that question. Before the full title of The Princess and the Queen was released, the best explanation I read was that it was a foreshadowing of Tyrion's wildfire on the Blackwater.

Then, in late 2013, we learned the full title of the Dance of the Dragons novella: The Princess and the Queen, or, the Blacks and the Greens.

Well, there is an SSM somewhere indicating that we will see a second Dance of Dragons. Aegon was the leader of the greens in the first Dance of Dragons, so it stands to reason that our Aegon, assuming he will "dance" with Daenerys, can be associated with green.

And, well, um... the babe was the leader of the blacks, right? So it stands to reason that our babe, the hot chick on the black dragon, can be associated with black. If you search a bit, you'll find all kinds of green and black contrasts and combinations throughout ASOIAF. Perhaps it's nothing mre than coincidence, but I highly doubt that. There was a reason for all those green and black color references.

Oh, and we already knew about Jon being the blue flower, right?

Quote

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

Now, notice that Daenerys observes fountains wrought in the shapes of griffins and dragons and manticores. The griffin and dragon allusions are easy, of course, Jon Connington and Aegon. But the manticore allusion is much more elusive.

As the OP notes, the manticore is a chimera, a fantastical beast comprised of the body parts of more than one animal or other mythical beast. The manticore most commonly consisted of a human head, a lions body, a bats wings, and a scorpions tail, but there were other variations. In ASOIAF, the manticore was much smaller, with a malign, black face and an arched, venomous tail, with the ability to fold itself into a scarab.

In the real world, the manticore and chimeras were depicted in the art of the Romanesque and Renaissance periods to symbolize fraud. So, we have Jon Connington, Aegon, and fraud

I believe the manticore couple with the Griffin and the dragon is a hint that Aegon is a fraud. 

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3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I appreciate your concentration on the importance of the manticore. Too often readers assumes it has to do with House Lorch, which doesn't make much sense. But I have a completely different explanation for it...

As Daenerys enters Qarth, she passes under an arch of green, black, and blue snakes...

Daenerys II, Clash

The colors of the snskes are symbolic. The first time were hear about Azor Ahai, Patchface adds a little color commentary..

What the [email protected]$k, Patches? Why did The George stick that in there? Not a lot of folks here have tried to answer that question. Before the full title of The Princess and the Queen was released, the best explanation I read was that it was a foreshadowing of Tyrion's wildfire on the Blackwater.

Then, in late 2013, we learned the full title of the Dance of the Dragons novella: The Princess and the Queen, or, the Blacks and the Greens.

Well, there is an SSM somewhere indicating that we will see a second Dance of Dragons. Aegon was the leader of the greens in the first Dance of Dragons, so it stands to reason that our Aegon, assuming he will "dance" with Daenerys, can be associated with green.

And, well, um... the babe was the leader of the blacks, right? So it stands to reason that our babe, the hot chick on the black dragon, can be associated with black. If you search a bit, you'll find all kinds of green and black contrasts and combinations throughout ASOIAF. Perhaps it's nothing mre than coincidence, but I highly doubt that. There was a reason for all those green and black color references.

Oh, and we already knew about Jon being the blue flower, right?

Now, notice that Daenerys observes fountains wrought in the shapes of griffins and dragons and manticores. The griffin and dragon allusions are easy, of course, Jon Connington and Aegon. But the manticore allusion is much more elusive.

As the OP notes, the manticore is a chimera, a fantastical beast comprised of the body parts of more than one animal or other mythical beast. The manticore most commonly consisted of a human head, a lions body, a bats wings, and a scorpions tail, but there were other variations. In ASOIAF, the manticore was much smaller, with a malign, black face and an arched, venomous tail, with the ability to fold itself into a scarab.

In the real world, the manticore and chimeras were depicted in the art of the Romanesque and Renaissance periods to symbolize fraud. So, we have Jon Connington, Aegon, and fraud

I believe the manticore couple with the Griffin and the dragon is a hint that Aegon is a fraud. 

Interesting observations.

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31 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I appreciate your concentration on the importance of the manticore. Too often readers assumes it has to do with House Lorch, which doesn't make much sense. But I have a completely different explanation for it...

As Daenerys enters Qarth, she passes under an arch of green, black, and blue snakes...

Daenerys II, Clash

The colors of the snskes are symbolic. The first time were hear about Azor Ahai, Patchface adds a little color commentary..

What the [email protected]$k, Patches? Why did The George stick that in there? Not a lot of folks here have tried to answer that question. Before the full title of The Princess and the Queen was released, the best explanation I read was that it was a foreshadowing of Tyrion's wildfire on the Blackwater.

Then, in late 2013, we learned the full title of the Dance of the Dragons novella: The Princess and the Queen, or, the Blacks and the Greens.

Well, there is an SSM somewhere indicating that we will see a second Dance of Dragons. Aegon was the leader of the greens in the first Dance of Dragons, so it stands to reason that our Aegon, assuming he will "dance" with Daenerys, can be associated with green.

And, well, um... the babe was the leader of the blacks, right? So it stands to reason that our babe, the hot chick on the black dragon, can be associated with black. If you search a bit, you'll find all kinds of green and black contrasts and combinations throughout ASOIAF. Perhaps it's nothing mre than coincidence, but I highly doubt that. There was a reason for all those green and black color references.

Oh, and we already knew about Jon being the blue flower, right?

Now, notice that Daenerys observes fountains wrought in the shapes of griffins and dragons and manticores. The griffin and dragon allusions are easy, of course, Jon Connington and Aegon. But the manticore allusion is much more elusive.

As the OP notes, the manticore is a chimera, a fantastical beast comprised of the body parts of more than one animal or other mythical beast. The manticore most commonly consisted of a human head, a lions body, a bats wings, and a scorpions tail, but there were other variations. In ASOIAF, the manticore was much smaller, with a malign, black face and an arched, venomous tail, with the ability to fold itself into a scarab.

In the real world, the manticore and chimeras were depicted in the art of the Romanesque and Renaissance periods to symbolize fraud. So, we have Jon Connington, Aegon, and fraud

I believe the manticore couple with the Griffin and the dragon is a hint that Aegon is a fraud. 

And I'll just sneak in here and give my own interpretation of the manticore:  The Devil, which depicts Illyrio.  It was the manticore's symbolism of the Devil which inspired Alighieri to use the manticore as a symbolism of fraud in Inferno.

Alternatively, if the manticore as a symbolism of fraud is correct, it would represent how Daenerys will view Aegon: a fraud.  There are also a couple of pairings (griffin or griffin and dragon) with a unicorn, which symbolizes innocence or purity. 

"Your door is very pretty," she told the dark-haired woman who answered when she knocked. "What castle is that meant to be?"

"All castles," said the captain's sister. "The only one I know is the Dun Fort by the harbor. I made t'other in my head, what a castle ought to look like. I never seen a dragon neither, nor a griffin, nor a unicorn."

The Smallfolk will view Aegon as legit.

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