Star Wars Episode VIII: The Force Rolls out of Bed and Stretches [Ep VII Spoilers]

[felice]

2 hours ago, Davrum said:

For sure you could call them pals by the second movie, and that's the first movie their relationship starts to matter and play out since in the first movie it's Qui Gon who's Anakin's mentor/father figure.

Qui-Gon dies five minutes after Anakin meets him. The vast majority of Anakin's relationship with Obi-Wan happens off-screen between movies, but that doesn't mean it's not important to them. Obi-Wan is Anakin's primary caregiver for his entire childhood from the age of nine onwards.

[red snow]

On 28/04/2016 at 11:31 PM, The BlackBear said:

In true gaming style he'll find the parts to upgrade his modern gun in an old tomb.

 

15 hours ago, Myrddin said:

That's why he always wears a satchel. It's for looting the bad guys so he can trade in for upgrades at the nearest vendor.

Even his roar post-killing is a bit like FF victory dances at the end of a fight. If only he ran around smashign everything in the hopes of finding coins and treasure.

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, red snow said:

 

Even his roar post-killing is a bit like FF victory dances at the end of a fight. If only he ran around smashign everything in the hopes of finding coins and treasure.

His "checking the Falcon" while Han to talk to Maz was a ruse. He didn't want to tell Han he was going to meet one of the fences established at Maz's watering hole.

[Davrum]

9 hours ago, felice said:

Qui-Gon dies five minutes after Anakin meets him. The vast majority of Anakin's relationship with Obi-Wan happens off-screen between movies, but that doesn't mean it's not important to them. Obi-Wan is Anakin's primary caregiver for his entire childhood from the age of nine onwards.

You say that like older brothers can't be primary caregivers. I mean, there's like a 10-12 year difference between Anakin and Obi Wan. Add in the clear-as-day "You were my brother Anakin!" and the "father figure" thing just feels like too much of a stretch to me.

[red snow]

7 hours ago, Corvinus said:

His "checking the Falcon" while Han to talk to Maz was a ruse. He didn't want to tell Han he was going to meet one of the fences established at Maz's watering hole.

Now I have a mental image of him trashing the place

19 minutes ago, Davrum said:

You say that like older brothers can't be primary caregivers. I mean, there's like a 10-12 year difference between Anakin and Obi Wan. Add in the clear-as-day "You were my brother Anakin!" and the "father figure" thing just feels like too much of a stretch to me.

I think Obi wan was maybe more an authority figure or someone Anakin looked up to. Not so much a father figure but I think a lot of people have those who are older where the relationship has a natural aspect of aspiring to be them or at least be influenced by them. That seemed the case with those two.

Qui Gon was certainly a father figure regardless of how long he was on the scene. Some of that probably extended to Obi Wan in the sense he felt like he had to assume a father-like role for anakin in honour of his "father"

[Davrum]

9 minutes ago, red snow said:

I think Obi wan was maybe more an authority figure or someone Anakin looked up to. Not so much a father figure but I think a lot of people have those who are older where the relationship has a natural aspect of aspiring to be them or at least be influenced by them. That seemed the case with those two.

Exactly, and to me, especially considering the age difference, you're describing an older brother. 

[felice]

1 hour ago, Davrum said:

You say that like older brothers can't be primary caregivers.

They can, but when they do they become a father figure. Nobody else plays anything remotely like as fatherly a role in Anakin's life as Obi-Wan. Their relationship has brotherly aspects as well, especially as they get older, but that's in addition to the fatherly aspect, not instead of it. Relationships are complicated.

[Astromech]

The only father figure Anakin ever had was Palpatine. Palpatine gave him the structure and direction he was seeking his whole life.

[Davrum]

10 hours ago, felice said:

They can, but when they do they become a father figure. Nobody else plays anything remotely like as fatherly a role in Anakin's life as Obi-Wan. Their relationship has brotherly aspects as well, especially as they get older, but that's in addition to the fatherly aspect, not instead of it. Relationships are complicated.

Let's say, hypothetically, I give you that. 

Actual father and actual son is still more like actual father and actual son than kid with no actual father and the adopted brother who looked after the kid when his first father figure died and took on kind of, sort of a complicated fatherly role even though he was nowhere near close enough to be his actual father and it was literally established in plain english that they regarded each other as brothers, right?

[felice]

45 minutes ago, Davrum said:

Actual father and actual son is still more like actual father and actual son than kid with no actual father and the adopted brother who looked after the kid when his first father figure died and took on kind of, sort of a complicated fatherly role even though he was nowhere near close enough to be his actual father

Biological father and son who've never actually met before and are on opposite sides of a war. What's your evidence that Anakin and Obi-Wan weren't sufficiently close between TPM and AotC? And Obi-Wan might see Anakin as a brother, but Anakin actually says "He's been a father to me" in the script (though I don't think it made the final cut).

[Davrum]

16 minutes ago, felice said:

Biological father and son who've never actually met before and are on opposite sides of a war. What's your evidence that Anakin and Obi-Wan weren't sufficiently close between TPM and AotC? And Obi-Wan might see Anakin as a brother, but Anakin actually says "He's been a father to me" in the script (though I don't think it made the final cut).

But ... but I never said Obi-Wan and Anakin weren't sufficiently close. Oh wait, I kind of did, when I meant to write close enough in age and somehow didn't write that. My mistake.

Also, script shmipt.

[red snow]

14 hours ago, Davrum said:

Exactly, and to me, especially considering the age difference, you're describing an older brother. 

Agreed, an older brother taking on some absent father like qualities

A bit like Saul and Chuck in better call Saul.

[Davrum]

13 minutes ago, red snow said:

Agreed, an older brother taking on some absent father like qualities

A bit like Saul and Chuck in better call Saul.

Bingo, glad we're on the same page that Obi-Wan's not Anakin's actual father unlike the Luke/Vader and Ben/Han situations . 

[Kalbear]

Quote

So once again, that scene has ESB smeared all over it and not really ANH.

It's a lot more like ANH than ESB. 

Yes, Han is Ben's dad. However, the dramatic arc isn't about Han dying to Ben - we don't care that much about Ben at that point. We care about Rey and Finn and Chewie, and for Rey especially Han is a mentor figure - just like Obi-Wan. This isn't about good facing evil and having a setback in the hero's journey - it's about the mentee stepping out from the shadow of the father and having their own epic journey. 

Sure, it's on a catwalk, and it looks like TESB (likely because of the writer), but the callback and theme isn't TESB at all - it's all about ANH. It's all about how it affects Rey. And we get a callback to this later, when Ren tells Rey that she and Finn are all alone now, and Han Solo can't save her. 

[Astromech]

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 7:09 PM, Davrum said:

Not to ANH, but to the entire OT. The Han/Ben father/son confrontation on a catwalk with one character falling is pure ESB, as is the cliffhanger ending. Han leading a ground mission to take out shields is pure ROTJ.

I'm just quoting Davrum since this is the beginning of the latest iteration of the parallels discussion. I lean more towards the entire OT argument than the ANH one. Especially in regards to the Solo confrontation. The parallels to ANH and ESB are clear, but one of my initial reactions which has been strengthened with each rewatch is the similarity to ROTJ; whereas Luke must confront his father and seeks to save him, Kylo must confront his father to eliminate his feelings and draw to the light side by killing him. I enjoy that contrast between the dark side and the light side of the Force. These two confrontations mirror one another.

What I enjoy this time around, is the immediate contrast between Rey and Ren's character arcs. In the OT, Darth Vader's arc/redemption being  important to the OT was only realized after ROTJ. Ren's arc is already clearly important to the new trilogy.

[Davrum]

10 hours ago, Kalbear said:

It's a lot more like ANH than ESB. 

Yes, Han is Ben's dad. However, the dramatic arc isn't about Han dying to Ben - we don't care that much about Ben at that point. We care about Rey and Finn and Chewie, and for Rey especially Han is a mentor figure - just like Obi-Wan. This isn't about good facing evil and having a setback in the hero's journey - it's about the mentee stepping out from the shadow of the father and having their own epic journey. 

Sure, it's on a catwalk, and it looks like TESB (likely because of the writer), but the callback and theme isn't TESB at all - it's all about ANH. It's all about how it affects Rey. And we get a callback to this later, when Ren tells Rey that she and Finn are all alone now, and Han Solo can't save her. 

Han dying means infinitely more to Ben than it does to Rey or Finn, who've only known Han for about 7 minutes. It's made abundantly clear that killing his father is what Ben needs to do to make a major step towards establishing himself as a legit power on the dark side and severing his ties with the light. (Han, by the way, is more of a mentor for Finn than he is for Rey. He doesn't give her a single piece of advice or teach her anything. Finn though, he does.) Also, both ESB and TFA feature not just actual father and actual son, but actual father trying to turn actual son to their side. ANH doesn't have that dynamic at all. Also, in both ESB and TFA the father/son confrontation is the emotional climax of the film. In ANH it is not.

The ESB (and ROTJ - Han leading a ground mission with explosives) elements are there, as you say, because of Kasdan. He wanted Han to essentially run through his OT arc again so that his death could be the termination of that OT arc. Kasdan always wanted Han to die at the end of Jedi, so he constructed the new film to ape not simply ANH, but the entire OT.

So even if we disagree whether Han's death means more to Ben or Rey (the correct answer is Ben), it's inarguable that the scene is really more about Han - the one who falls - than anyone else. The parallel with ESB is clear, as the father/son confrontation scene was more about Luke - the one who falls - than anyone else. There is no such parallel in ANH. 

On the surface TFA seems like a simple ANH rip-off, but once you lift the hood you see the entire OT is what's really driving it. Even Kasdan himself admits as much.

[Slurktan]

1 hour ago, Davrum said:

On the surface TFA seems like a simple ANH rip-off, but once you lift the hood you see the entire OT is what's really driving it. Even Kasdan himself admits as much.

Whereas Abrams has admitted to basically ripping off ANH.  Who to believe?

[Davrum]

1 hour ago, Slurktan said:

Whereas Abrams has admitted to basically ripping off ANH.  Who to believe?

Conundrums!

[Myrddin]

TFA ripes off RotJ.

Anakin chooses the light side and throws his "father" down into the abyss.

Ren chooses the dark side and throws his father down into the abyss.

[ab aeterno]

As it's now 00:15 UK time.

 

On this Holiest of days, let us take a moment to remember our Lord and Saviour Han Solo, who died on the cross(guard saber) for the sins of the Prequels. He died, that Star Wars might live. 

 

May the Fourth be with you, everyone.