FuzzyJAM Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 The Ice Dragon isn't actually a constellation, it's a set of (magical!) satellites. Or something. IDK, I don't think it's beyond explanation if you really want something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spookykid Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 If there are shorter days here, there has to be shorter nights somewhere else. Same that if you have endless winter here, there should be endless summer somewhere else. No mention of this anywhere so all this has to be magic related? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durran Durrandon Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 30 minutes ago, SevasTra82 said: This seems like a classic case of over-analyzing. GRRM simply states that the Ice Dragon faces North. It was called the Ice Dragon simply because its eye points north towards Winterfell and The Wall. The tail, which is the opposite site of the eye, would point south. GRRM is by no means an astrologer and in his mind, this probably made sense. I'm sure he's not looking up in an encyclopedia what the polarity of the earth's axis would be. As for the comment on the Rider, considering it only appears a single time by Osha, and GRRM's notorious nature for making little mistakes (eyes changing color, horses changing sex, Jaime cupping his hands when he only had 1 left etc), I'm sure this is just one of those small mistakes that GRRM has been known to make. I highly, highly doubt it goes any further than this. I think it is highly likely that the shift from the eye of the rider to the eye of the dragon was simply an error he made at one point. Though it is pretty clear that the blue star eye was intended to be associated with the Others and their shining star like blue eyes, as it is the star's consistent color and he clearly made it an eye for a reason. I also think he may not have been thinking about or been aware of precession, when he seemed to confirm shifting axial tilt having a role in the irregular seasons. However, the idea that he isn't thinking about astronomy or astrology when he references the pole star in five places, mentions the seven wanderers ( the sun, moon and five stars) matching the seven wanderers in classical astronomy, notes an association of the aspects of the Faith of the Seven with seven wanderers, mentions multiple constellations and repeats them, mentions the variant wildling names for some of the constellations and the wanderers and the astrological significance of particular wanderers passing through particularilar constellations, and at one point planned to include a star chart in he World of Ice and Fire, seems a bit off. I think he has thought a bit about astronomy and astrology. He may just be in error on these particular points. Or again, I'm missing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durran Durrandon Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 1 hour ago, Spookykid said: If there are shorter days here, there has to be shorter nights somewhere else. Same that if you have endless winter here, there should be endless summer somewhere else. No mention of this anywhere so all this has to be magic related? Truth, but I suspect tat the equator is somewhere around Sothyros, so that would have happened off the map. Moreover, Benrro, the he priest of the Red Temple of Volantis specifically prophesies that Daenerys is Azor Ahai reborn and will bring a summer without end, and the idea of the Great Summer without end as a popular myth of the small folk is mention by both Tyrion and Jorah in Game of Thrones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durran Durrandon Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 11 hours ago, Cagey Bee said: Just throwing it out there, but... If there were once another moon,(see LmL's astrology theory) then the moon that was formerly there stabilized the orbit. Once the moon (Nissa Nissa) was knocked out by the comet (Lightbringer) then I could see how it could happen that the seasons would fluctuate. I actually think the irregularity of the seasons of gives some credit to the theory, myself.. Okay, I guess I shouldn't troll people on my own posts. I'm quite familiar with LML's material. (I was mostly trolling LML, but he hasn't taken the bait yet..) If you look at my Amethyst Empress and The Long Night and the Great Summer essays you will see I reference him extensively. I'll just say that whatever the mechanics of the seasons are that I think the cause is magical in origin and totally relates to the destruction of the second moon by the comet. I'm completely on board with that part, and the associations with Nissa Nissa, Azor Ahai, the Amethyst Empress, the Bloodstone Emperor, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melisandre's White Pubes Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 You think the stars are illogical in this series, take a look at the moon phases. Throughout the entire series, there is only one time (out of eleven or so) that the moons position and phase are correct for the time of day that's described…even if GRRM did not care at all about astronomical details, he would have got it right more often just by dumb luck. And I'm pretty sure that GRRM knows it's impossible to have a crescent moon rising at sunset. Either he deliberately made the astronomy impossible so that people would not try to tie this fantasy series to the real world, or there is some other factor. One theory is that the speed of light is unusually slow near Planetos, and the light from Moonos is a couple of weeks old when it's seen on the surface. This could also explain why the Maesters, despite having telescopes and a better-than-medieval understanding of science, have trouble doing things like measuring their world even though the Greeks got very accurate measurements 3000 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durran Durrandon Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 30 minutes ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said: You think the stars are illogical in this series, take a look at the moon phases. Throughout the entire series, there is only one time (out of eleven or so) that the moons position and phase are correct for the time of day that's described…even if GRRM did not care at all about astronomical details, he would have got it right more often just by dumb luck. And I'm pretty sure that GRRM knows it's impossible to have a crescent moon rising at sunset. Either he deliberately made the astronomy impossible so that people would not try to tie this fantasy series to the real world, or there is some other factor. One theory is that the speed of light is unusually slow near Planetos, and the light from Moonos is a couple of weeks old when it's seen on the surface. This could also explain why the Maesters, despite having telescopes and a better-than-medieval understanding of science, have trouble doing things like measuring their world even though the Greeks got very accurate measurements 3000 years ago. Huh, I didn't know that regarding the moon. The phase of the moon is determined by its position in its orbit around the earth, Its full when when it is on the opposite side of the earth as the sun, so it would need to be full or near full to rise at sunset? Am I getting that right? I learned something new today. I have notice that Martin tends to use the widely inaccurate trope of having the moonrise indicates the beginning of night. (No I haven't actually gone back and confirmed that.) I kind of given him a pass on that for literary reasons. So if he is consistently having the moonrise just after sunsnet, and throwing random phases on it, that might make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah.jenice Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 I learned a lot from this post, Durran Durrandon. Thanks! Interesting about the dragonrider in the ice dragon constellation, but like others have said, it's probably just an error since it's only mentioned once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hyle Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 4 hours ago, FuzzyJAM said: I think the answer is just "magic" and George not much caring for astrology, sorry. You beat me to it, Elmo. The answer is this is a fantasy story filled with magic. Even in the quote - it's explained that the inconsistent seasonal patterns are a matter of magic. Does anyone have a scientific theory to explain the Stannis headed shadow monster that emerged from Melisandre's vagina and immediately found and snuck into Renly's tent to fatally stab him with a knife shaped shadow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melisandre's White Pubes Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 1 hour ago, Durran Durrandon said: Huh, I didn't know that regarding the moon. The phase of the moon is determined by its position in its orbit around the earth, Its full when when it is on the opposite side of the earth as the sun, so it would need to be full or near full to rise at sunset? Am I getting that right? I learned something new today. I have notice that Martin tends to use the widely inaccurate trope of having the moonrise indicates the beginning of night. (No I haven't actually gone back and confirmed that.) I kind of given him a pass on that for literary reasons. So if he is consistently having the moonrise just after sunsnet, and throwing random phases on it, that might make sense. Right about the phase - if the moon is rising at sunset, it will always be full. If the moon rises at midnight, it should be a half moon. He doesn't always have the moon rise at sunset, I remember one situation where he described the moon rising at midnight. It was the wrong phase, but at least he's not consistently writing "The sun goes down and the moon goes up". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durran Durrandon Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 47 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said: You beat me to it, Elmo. The answer is this is a fantasy story filled with magic. Even in the quote - it's explained that the inconsistent seasonal patterns are a matter of magic. Does anyone have a scientific theory to explain the Stannis headed shadow monster that emerged from Melisandre's vagina and immediately found and snuck into Renly's tent to fatally stab him with a knife shaped shadow? I'm cool with it's magic as an explanation. How does a dragon breath fire? It's magic. Why doesn't Daenerys burn in the funeral pyre? She's magic, sometimes. However, if dragon breaths fire on a character that is clearly not magic, we'll say Pod, I expect Pod to burn, because that's physics. I would be completely good with the seasons are caused by magic, but what we seem to be getting is the seasons are caused by the lengthening and shortening of days based on the tilt of the Earth, which shifts randomly due to magic, which I would also be cool with. I'm just pointing out that if that is the explanation, the stars should shift. So, this could easily just be an error. Or as A Song of Ass and Fire suggests it might mean that the stars are just magical and not bound by any kind of ordinary physics. I'm just fishing for any ideas anyone has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melisandre's White Pubes Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 The moon phase issue, combined with other aspects that seem to indicate that time is somewhat "off" on Planetos, makes me think there is some magical distortion of space and time, probably centering on Valyria based on how the moon appeared when Tyrion sailed near there. I don't think this has a scientific explanation, but magic can obey physical laws without being science - for instance, fire that is black or green in color being breathed by a dragon is clearly magical, but it is true that a fire of great heat, magical in nature or not, could be used to create smooth roads and structures of solid stone that was melted and molded in a scientifically plausible way. Likewise, one could have magic distort space and time in a wholly magical way, and this would have effects that make scientific sense, like visual distortions in areas where these "twists" in spacetime are the sharpest, or moons that don't appear to be the correct phase because their light is travelling at an unnatural, magically induced speed. Though the source of the different species of humanoids on Planetos may be entirely magical, it is also scientifically plausible that groups of humans who were isolated from other humans for hundreds of thousands of years could have scientifically plausible difficulties interbreeding with other populations. Just because something is magic doesn't mean that there can't be logical scientific implications, or that we couldn't question the scientific realism of things related to magic…for instance, if it was stated that dragons could fly 500 miles an hour, it would be reasonable to ask how a person was able to remain on the back of the dragon at those speeds, even if you said that it was possible for a dragon to move that fast because of magic and/or supernaturally strong wings. If the author stated that dragon riders who travelled at those speeds needed a special enclosed saddle to do so, it would not turn the story into science fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfyre Bastard Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 14 minutes ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said: Just because something is magic doesn't mean that there can't be logical scientific implications, or that we couldn't question the scientific realism of things related to magic…for instance, if it was stated that dragons could fly 500 miles an hour, it would be reasonable to ask how a person was able to remain on the back of the dragon at those speeds, even if you said that it was possible for a dragon to move that fast because of magic and/or supernaturally strong wings. If the author stated that dragon riders who travelled at those speeds needed a special enclosed saddle to do so, it would not turn the story into science fiction. I don't want to veer off from the topic, I just wanted to say that it does is stated that dragonriders are, in fact, fastened to their seats. This is a quote from "The Princess and the Queen": Quote And it was then, the tales tell us, that Prince Daemon Targaryen swung a leg over his saddle and leapt from one dragon to the other. In his hand was Dark Sister, the sword of Queen Visenya. As Aemond One-Eye looked up in terror, fumbling with the chains that bound him to his saddle, Daemon ripped off his nephew’s helm and drove the sword down into his blind eye, so hard the point came out the back of the young prince’s throat. Just wanted to clear that up, since we're trying to discern magic from physics in a Fantasy novel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiemal Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 4 hours ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said: You think the stars are illogical in this series, take a look at the moon phases. Throughout the entire series, there is only one time (out of eleven or so) that the moons position and phase are correct for the time of day that's described…even if GRRM did not care at all about astronomical details, he would have got it right more often just by dumb luck. And I'm pretty sure that GRRM knows it's impossible to have a crescent moon rising at sunset. Either he deliberately made the astronomy impossible so that people would not try to tie this fantasy series to the real world, or there is some other factor. One theory is that the speed of light is unusually slow near Planetos, and the light from Moonos is a couple of weeks old when it's seen on the surface. This could also explain why the Maesters, despite having telescopes and a better-than-medieval understanding of science, have trouble doing things like measuring their world even though the Greeks got very accurate measurements 3000 years ago. And not a single mention of an eclipse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durran Durrandon Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 1 hour ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said: The moon phase issue, combined with other aspects that seem to indicate that time is somewhat "off" on Planetos, makes me think there is some magical distortion of space and time, probably centering on Valyria based on how the moon appeared when Tyrion sailed near there. I don't think this has a scientific explanation, but magic can obey physical laws without being science - for instance, fire that is black or green in color being breathed by a dragon is clearly magical, but it is true that a fire of great heat, magical in nature or not, could be used to create smooth roads and structures of solid stone that was melted and molded in a scientifically plausible way. Likewise, one could have magic distort space and time in a wholly magical way, and this would have effects that make scientific sense, like visual distortions in areas where these "twists" in spacetime are the sharpest, or moons that don't appear to be the correct phase because their light is travelling at an unnatural, magically induced speed. Though the source of the different species of humanoids on Planetos may be entirely magical, it is also scientifically plausible that groups of humans who were isolated from other humans for hundreds of thousands of years could have scientifically plausible difficulties interbreeding with other populations. Just because something is magic doesn't mean that there can't be logical scientific implications, or that we couldn't question the scientific realism of things related to magic…for instance, if it was stated that dragons could fly 500 miles an hour, it would be reasonable to ask how a person was able to remain on the back of the dragon at those speeds, even if you said that it was possible for a dragon to move that fast because of magic and/or supernaturally strong wings. If the author stated that dragon riders who travelled at those speeds needed a special enclosed saddle to do so, it would not turn the story into science fiction. ^^^^ This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmenolas Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 12 hours ago, SevasTra82 said: GRRM is by no means an astrologer and in his mind, this probably made sense. I'm sure he's not looking up in an encyclopedia what the polarity of the earth's axis would be. 12 hours ago, FuzzyJAM said: George not much caring for astrology, sorry. Astronomy. Not Astrology. Astronomy studies celestial objects and processes. Astrology is magical thinking that attempts to ascribe some sort of geocentric meaning/purpose to the movements of the stars (believing their position influences humans, believing they're signs from deities, etc.). Just had to clarify once I saw that error pop up twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 11 hours ago, Durran Durrandon said: I think it is highly likely that the shift from the eye of the rider to the eye of the dragon was simply an error he made at one point. Though it is pretty clear that the blue star eye was intended to be associated with the Others and their shining star like blue eyes, as it is the star's consistent color and he clearly made it an eye for a reason. I wonder about this myself, because he used pretty obvious Ice Dragon rider imagery when he had Aemond Targaryen wear a sapphire in place of his missing eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durran Durrandon Posted January 29, 2016 Author Share Posted January 29, 2016 10 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said: I wonder about this myself, because he used pretty obvious Ice Dragon rider imagery when he had Aemond Targaryen wear a sapphire in place of his missing eye. Right, he could have used a ruby or emerald, but he went with a sapphire, which connects with all the Ice Dragon, Others, Symeon Star-Eyes imagery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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