The missing pieces regarding Robert's Rebellion and the disapearence of Lyanna

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I don't specify in my theory who's Squire he was. 

Just that he was someone's squire at the ToJ. I go into detail regarding his feelings about Arthur in the theory. I believe that the comments he makes regarding Arthur and names ie: his is Gerold another man who was at the ToJ But he prefers to use Darkstar- at least it is my own, and he goes off on one about name sakes and hero's who were actually blind fools. ect. 

I can link you the thread if you like. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

My first 22 page topic! YAY ME!

But in all seriousness, I mentioned it in my OP, but it is worth a read

https://ladygwynhyfvar.wordpress.com/2014/11/06/rescue-at-the-crossroads/.

She has a unique spin on it that is interesting even if you dont believe it.

 

[Rippounet]

I'm late to the party but... The use of a particular word gave me an idea...

What if... Lyanna did something else as KOTLT after Harrenhal?
In other words, what if she continued to dress as a man after the tournament, and ended up being in need of Rhaegar's rescue because of it?

I mean, we've been discussing what we know for ages, but given the timeframe, who knows what happened between Harrenhal and her abduction? If Harrenhal wasn't enough to warrant rescue, what if something happened that did?

Just the reappearance of the KOTLT would be enough to draw Aerys's (or Aery's advisers') attention, would it not?
Now I know she lost the shield (though who knows if she didn't get it back, or found another one)... But that doesn't mean she stopped being the headstrong missus she was. As far as we know, she wasn't discovered at Harrenhal.... So why wouldn't she have continued her antics?
There's tons of stupid things she could have done, from rescuing a random nobody from the wrong person to getting entangled in Rhaegar's schemes against his father... She could have tried to do something political to further the interests of House Stark... Or maybe she just ended up at the wrong place at the wrong time and found out something she wasn't supposed to.

I'm basing this on very little:

Quote

"Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave."

Ned seems to imply that Lyanna was responsible for her own demise. It's often assumed that Ned was talking about Harrenhal. But what if... Ned was referring to something we don't know? The KOTLT story would just be a clue that Lyanna was prone to taking inconsiderate risks, and this is what led her to being abducted.
I've often wondered whether she wasn't acting as a link between Rhaegar and Rickard Stark, but come to think of it, her donning her armor again would be enough to get her into serious trouble. Basically, because Aerys decided the KOTLT was an enemy, if he reappeared... It might be enough for Rhaegar to have to abduct her, for her own safety. And then, mayhem ensued, of course.

I think there may be a whole story to be told about what happened after Harrenhal. And we're missing a very important piece of the puzzle.

[UnmaskedLurker]

3 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I'm late to the party but... The use of a particular word gave me an idea...

What if... Lyanna did something else as KOTLT after Harrenhal?
In other words, what if she continued to dress as a man after the tournament, and ended up being in need of Rhaegar's rescue because of it?

I mean, we've been discussing what we know for ages, but given the timeframe, who knows what happened between Harrenhal and her abduction? If Harrenhal wasn't enough to warrant rescue, what if something happened that did?

Just the reappearance of the KOTLT would be enough to draw Aerys's (or Aery's advisers') attention, would it not?
Now I know she lost the shield (though who knows if she didn't get it back, or found another one)... But that doesn't mean she stopped being the headstrong missus she was. As far as we know, she wasn't discovered at Harrenhal.... So why wouldn't she have continued her antics?
There's tons of stupid things she could have done, from rescuing a random nobody from the wrong person to getting entangled in Rhaegar's schemes against his father... She could have tried to do something political to further the interests of House Stark... Or maybe she just ended up at the wrong place at the wrong time and found out something she wasn't supposed to.

I'm basing this on very little:

Ned seems to imply that Lyanna was responsible for her own demise. It's often assumed that Ned was talking about Harrenhal. But what if... Ned was referring to something we don't know? The KOTLT story would just be a clue that Lyanna was prone to taking inconsiderate risks, and this is what led her to being abducted.
I've often wondered whether she wasn't acting as a link between Rhaegar and Rickard Stark, but come to think of it, her donning her armor again would be enough to get her into serious trouble. Basically, because Aerys decided the KOTLT was an enemy, if he reappeared... It might be enough for Rhaegar to have to abduct her, for her own safety. And then, mayhem ensued, of course.

I think there may be a whole story to be told about what happened after Harrenhal. And we're missing a very important piece of the puzzle.

Not to put cold water on your theory -- but Lyanna dressed as a man for a specific purpose -- to "right a wrong" in her eyes. I don't see that she would have any reason to continue to do so.

And I do not think Ned was referencing her actions at Harrenhal -- at least not mostly -- I think he was referencing breaking her engagement to Robert and running off and marrying the Crown Prince and going into hiding with him and having his baby. Even for those who disagree with me about a wedding -- assuming Lyanna stayed in hiding with Rhaegar voluntarily and had a child with him voluntarily -- I think that would count as acting in a headstrong manner for a girl of that era.

[purple-eyes]

13 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I'm late to the party but... The use of a particular word gave me an idea...

What if... Lyanna did something else as KOTLT after Harrenhal?
In other words, what if she continued to dress as a man after the tournament, and ended up being in need of Rhaegar's rescue because of it?

I mean, we've been discussing what we know for ages, but given the timeframe, who knows what happened between Harrenhal and her abduction? If Harrenhal wasn't enough to warrant rescue, what if something happened that did?

Just the reappearance of the KOTLT would be enough to draw Aerys's (or Aery's advisers') attention, would it not?
Now I know she lost the shield (though who knows if she didn't get it back, or found another one)... But that doesn't mean she stopped being the headstrong missus she was. As far as we know, she wasn't discovered at Harrenhal.... So why wouldn't she have continued her antics?
There's tons of stupid things she could have done, from rescuing a random nobody from the wrong person to getting entangled in Rhaegar's schemes against his father... She could have tried to do something political to further the interests of House Stark... Or maybe she just ended up at the wrong place at the wrong time and found out something she wasn't supposed to.

I'm basing this on very little:

Ned seems to imply that Lyanna was responsible for her own demise. It's often assumed that Ned was talking about Harrenhal. But what if... Ned was referring to something we don't know? The KOTLT story would just be a clue that Lyanna was prone to taking inconsiderate risks, and this is what led her to being abducted.
I've often wondered whether she wasn't acting as a link between Rhaegar and Rickard Stark, but come to think of it, her donning her armor again would be enough to get her into serious trouble. Basically, because Aerys decided the KOTLT was an enemy, if he reappeared... It might be enough for Rhaegar to have to abduct her, for her own safety. And then, mayhem ensued, of course.

I think there may be a whole story to be told about what happened after Harrenhal. And we're missing a very important piece of the puzzle.

I know grrm left a big vacuum between HH and abduction. So anything can technically happen, even lyanna possibly set up her own sell sword or gangster company as the current brotherhood without banners to depose aerys. Or she ran to Essos and found a dragon egg and hide it in toj for all we know. 

But I feel hard to imagine lyanna kept doing as kolt after she was declared as enemy of king publicly and also king urged his men to find her. Even she was fine, she still had families who had to be loyal to aerys. How stupid is this? I know she is headstrong, but this is like, an idiot. 

Plus lyanna was not like brienne who was a skillful warrior. What can she do as kolt? Keep attending tourneys? 

Plus, wolf blood is more understood as her eloping with rhaegar. Not HH. 

[Rippounet]

3 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Not to put cold water on your theory -- but Lyanna dressed as a man for a specific purpose -- to "right a wrong" in her eyes. I don't see that she would have any reason to continue to do so.

But that's precisely my point: she could easily have found another "wrong to right" requiring her to disguise herself as a man. There's a lot that she wouldn't have been able to do as Lyanna Stark. A hedge knight, on the other hand...

I mean, we do have an entire series of short stories revolving around a hedge knight...

And I do not think Ned was referencing her actions at Harrenhal -- at least not mostly -- I think he was referencing breaking her engagement to Robert and running off and marrying the Crown Prince and going into hiding with him and having his baby

There's very little in the text to suggest Lyanna was disgusted enough with Robert to run away with Rhaegar. In fact, there's even an SSM that, imho, pretty much buries this theory. But this is a debate which has been done a hundred times already...

[UnmaskedLurker]

12 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

There's very little in the text to suggest Lyanna was disgusted enough with Robert to run away with Rhaegar. In fact, there's even an SSM that, imho, pretty much buries this theory. But this is a debate which has been done a hundred times already...

So I am genuinely wondering -- you believe that Lyanna was held against her will the entire time? If not, was she held against her will for some period of time? If so, how long?

I really am genuinely curious what you think happened.

[Rippounet]

9 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

But I feel hard to imagine lyanna kept doing as kolt after she was declared as enemy of king publicly and also king urged his men to find her. Even she was fine, she still had families who had to be loyal to aerys. How stupid is this? I know she is headstrong, but this is like, an idiot.

You have a point.

Scrap the idea that she acted as KOTLT then. Just imagine her doing anything stupid that could have revealed her as KOTLT after Harrenhal.
Her dressing as a man, or wearing armor, or using a booming voice, or practising jousting... Any of those could have been enough for a smart person to put 2 and 2 together.

[Rippounet]

2 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

So I am genuinely wondering -- you believe that Lyanna was held against her will the entire time? If not, was she held against her will for some period of time? If so, how long?

I really am genuinely curious what you think happened.

Well, both the rebels' and the loyalists' stories have Lyanna being abducted "at swordpoint," so I see no reason to doubt that part. This, in turn, suggests she did not elope.
Moreover, I think Rhaegar abducting the daughter of Rickard Stark and the betrothed of Robert Baratheon smacks of desperation. I think this suggests she was in grave and immediate danger, and that Rhaegar was forced to act fast.

I don't think she was ever truly held against her will though. As soon as Rhaegar explained his motives to her, she would have understood and stayed with him willingly. Plus, Rhaegar had two KG with him, so she had a pretty decent escort. Not to mention the fact that she was probably willing to trust Rhaegar after Harrenhal.

I think Rhaegar intended to bring Lyanna back to the Starks (or the Tullys, or the Baratheons, or the Arryns...) relatively fast. But Brandon jumped to conclusions and rushed to KL, thus wrecking his plans. By then, even if Rickard knew Rhaegar had rescued his daughter, he was forced to go to KL to try and save his elder son from Aerys.
Maybe Ned knew all this, and this is why he never harbored any ill feelings toward Rhaegar that we know of.

In other words, I pretty much agree 90% with the OP. The only thing I want to add is that something happened that prompted Rhaegar to act in a hurry, thus causing the chain of events we know. And I think this was Lyanna's fault ; she did something that put her in such grievous danger that Rhaegar felt compelled to save her from men loyal to Aerys as soon as possible.

I mean... This isn't even crackpottish: it's merely adding a tiny detail to what we already know...

[Rippounet]

28 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

 

Damn... Double post (how did this happen???)

[purple-eyes]

18 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Well, both the rebels' and the loyalists' stories have Lyanna being abducted "at swordpoint," so I see no reason to doubt that part. This, in turn, suggests she did not elope.
Moreover, I think Rhaegar abducting the daughter of Rickard Stark and the betrothed of Robert Baratheon smacks of desperation. I think this suggests she was in grave and immediate danger, and that Rhaegar was forced to act fast.

I don't think she was ever truly held against her will though. As soon as Rhaegar explained his motives to her, she would have understood and stayed with him willingly. Plus, Rhaegar had two KG with him, so she had a pretty decent escort. Not to mention the fact that she was probably willing to trust Rhaegar after Harrenhal.

I think Rhaegar intended to bring Lyanna back to the Starks (or the Tullys, or the Baratheons, or the Arryns...) relatively fast. But Brandon jumped to conclusions and rushed to KL, thus wrecking his plans. By then, even if Rickard knew Rhaegar had rescued his daughter, he was forced to go to KL to try and save his elder son from Aerys.
Maybe Ned knew all this, and this is why he never harbored any ill feelings toward Rhaegar that we know of.

In other words, I pretty much agree 90% with the OP. The only thing I want to add is that something happened that prompted Rhaegar to act in a hurry, thus causing the chain of events we know. And I think this was Lyanna's fault ; she did something that put her in such grievous danger that Rhaegar felt compelled to save her from men loyal to Aerys as soon as possible.

I mean... This isn't even crackpottish: it's merely adding a tiny detail to what we already know...

I always feel rhaegar's "timing" is that he was told elia can not give him third child, aka aegon's birth. 

It was explicitly said that he left right after birth of aegon. 

 

 

[sciteacher]

13 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 But a lot of readers get so fixated on Wylla they forget the likely hood that there were others there and that in all probability Wylla could not be a reliable witness as to who Jon's father was, being as her job only begins after his birth at which point Rhaegar is not at the tower. And hasn't been for some weeks.

She can identify the mother, and conclusions can be drawn, and Howland can back up what Lyanna told Ned.

I agree with most of what you say. I would add though that we don't really know where and when Wylla came into the picture. They may have taken the baby away with them, feeding him goat milk or using some other wet nurse, before hiring Wylla. So she may not have been a witness to either parent.

We also don't know it Howland heard a single word uttered by Lyanna. Likely he did, but we just don't know for sure.

[purple-eyes]

9 minutes ago, sciteacher said:

I agree with most of what you say. I would add though that we don't really know where and when Wylla came into the picture. They may have taken the baby away with them, feeding him goat milk or using some other wet nurse, before hiring Wylla. So she may not have been a witness to either parent.

We also don't know it Howland heard a single word uttered by Lyanna. Likely he did, but we just don't know for sure.

Oh, GRRM said once howland was not there when ned and lyanna was talking. 

I think howland only knew jon is son of them. Nothing else. (Unless ned told him) 

For example, if lyanna told ned about rhaegar's prophecy, then howland did not know. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

14 hours ago, sciteacher said:

I agree with most of what you say. I would add though that we don't really know where and when Wylla came into the picture. They may have taken the baby away with them, feeding him goat milk or using some other wet nurse, before hiring Wylla. So she may not have been a witness to either parent.

 

I did cover that: 

"She is a wet nurse, we are told she is a wet nurse and there is no reason to believe she did any other job. Now might she have been called to the ToJ after Lyanna became feverish, and be there already nursing Jon when Ned arrives. Of course she might. Or Might Ned have sought help at Starfall (possibly at the suggestion of Squire Dayne, should I be correct on that theory) and been given her there when he returned Dawn. Either possibility is valid."

I have long argued that she may not have even been there.  And that Ned engaged her services at Starfall. It is perfectly possibly for a new born to go several days without milk. It happens in the real world, and they even have a special kind of fat which is laid down in the last trimester which provides nutrition during the first several days whilst the mother is producing colostrum. And yes there are ways and means to feed a baby on the rd. It is a time of war, for Ned to hang back and Howland to beg  local smallfolk women to feed his child, after he tells her his wife has died on the rd. Is easy. Or yeah just procure a goat, not nutritionally ideal by any means but will suffice in emergencies. 

I am hung up on the fact she is not a midwife. She is a wet nurse. A wet nurse wouldn't be brought in until after the birth and once it has been established the mother can't feed the child herself. Lyanna was dying of child bed fever; we assume from the hints. And that doesn't mean she could not feed Jon herself for the time she was alive, Arthur, Gerold & Oswell may have had a woman brought to the Tower once she got really ill, which would have been several days after the birth.  It tends to kick in within 48 hours and takes up to 10 days to become fatal. But there is zero reason to suggest they'd pre-emptively bring in a wet nurse. 

So what Wylla knows is not automatically primary source. We know that what Howland knows is not primary source, only someoen who was present during the full series of events can give a primary source account. So we have to find one, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Arthur & Oswell are dead. But we know Rhaegar took half a dozen companions, we howether have to assume that not all of these stayed with them at the ToJ. Because we can make the presumption that most of them were grown men,because they are described as his closest companions. We know no other men survived the ToJ. And non bar the KG are mentioned by Ned. At least one of those often considered to be part of the party which Rhaegar takes into the RL we know was elsewhere  by the time the ToJ fight went down.(JonCon.) so it is a good guess that out of 6 up to 4 left after they set out for Dorne. But if we are to have that important Primary Source, these 4 mystery men are our best bet, so if one stays with R, L, A&O who might that person be and what reason would they have stayed for. The likely answer is that it needs to be a squire. A child, so not a grown man, he has a legitimate reason to have stayed at the ToJ; because Knights need squires. And he can provide a first hand eye witness account of all the events, backing up the information that Howland gives and Wylla confirms. together with the possibility that some of the other 3 of the party may be out there and so also able to back up their version of the "kidnap" and wedding.  

 

[SFDanny]

The problem with your hypothesis, Weirwoods Eyes, is that the people of Starfall think Wylla is Jon's mom. That's not possible if she is already at Starfall, not pregnant, before Ned arrives with the newborn Jon. I agree Wylla doesn't have to have been at the Tower and to have been an eyewitness of the events there, but she has to either arrive with Jon, or give birth to him in Starfall for the people there to accept the story of her being Jon's mom.

As to her being brought in after the birth as a wet nurse, I think it likely she was brought in earlier. Having a maester and a wet nurse at the birth of noble children is the norm we see in the story. It is true the Tower of Joy is not the normal place for such births to take place, but the party would have months of preparation time for the birth. It is not hard to see that getting both a maester and a wet nurse, and possibly a midwife, before the birth was expected would be a priority for the party. Was Wylla that wet nurse? We have no way of knowing for sure, but it is likely as well. Something other than just money, I think, needs to explain Wylla's loyalty to Jon. There is a bond between them that she feels, and I think explains her standing by the story she is his mother over all these years. Either that bond is really a maternal bond between mother and son - unlikely imho, or there is a history between Wylla and Jon, or more likely between Wylla and Jon's parents, that goes beyond just a few weeks or a few months as the baby's wet nurse.

As to primary sources for the Tower of Joy events, our best bets are still Howland Reed for the battle and later, and Wylla the wet nurse for before and after. I will add my own favorite candidate of Marwyn as the maester in attendance to Lyanna, and the Lady Ashara Dayne as the person responsible for Ned's safe passage to Starfall from the Tower. Of course, I think the Lady Ashara is still alive.

[purple-eyes]

22 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

The problem with your hypothesis, Weirwoods Eyes, is that the people of Starfall think Wylla is Jon's mom. That's not possible if she is already at Starfall, not pregnant, before Ned arrives with the newborn Jon. I agree Wylla doesn't have to have been at the Tower and to have been an eyewitness of the events there, but she has to either arrive with Jon, or give birth to him in Starfall for the people there to accept the story of her being Jon's mom.

As to her being brought in after the birth as a wet nurse, I think it likely she was brought in earlier. Having a maester and a wet nurse at the birth of noble children is the norm we see in the story. It is true the Tower of Joy is not the normal place for such births to take place, but the party would have months of preparation time for the birth. It is not hard to see that getting both a maester and a wet nurse, and possibly a midwife, before the birth was expected would be a priority for the party. Was Wylla that wet nurse? We have no way of knowing for sure, but it is likely as well. Something other than just money, I think, needs to explain Wylla's loyalty to Jon. There is a bond between them that she feels, and I think explains her standing by the story she is his mother over all these years. Either that bond is really a maternal bond between mother and son - unlikely imho, or there is a history between Wylla and Jon, or more likely between Wylla and Jon's parents, that goes beyond just a few weeks or a few months as the baby's wet nurse.

As to primary sources for the Tower of Joy events, our best bets are still Howland Reed for the battle and later, and Wylla the wet nurse for before and after. I will add my own favorite candidate of Marwyn as the maester in attendance to Lyanna, and the Lady Ashara Dayne as the person responsible for Ned's safe passage to Starfall from the Tower. Of course, I think the Lady Ashara is still alive.

I highly doubt there is a maester in TOJ. TOJ stood by secrecy and if they invited a maester from a noble castle to there, it is a high compromise to the secrecy. Maester has access to ravens, they have a lot of connections with noblemen and they read and write. It is just too risky for the little secret group of TOJ. Not to mention an archmaester. 

For wylla, I always feel she was hired from local villages before birth of jon, then she travelled with ned to starfall and then stayed there and was hired by house dayne. TOJ should have several servants unless lyanna, rhaegar and KG cook and clean the house themselves. They also need to buy some furnitures and living necessities. These people are likely hired from local since the very beginning, even before the abduction. 

House dayne, IMHO, knew nothing about TOJ stuff. All they knew is ned killed arthur, and wylla came with ned and baby, then of course house dayne will believe she is mother of jon. 

If they knew about TOJ and sent wylla there, then they will not think she is Jon's mom. 

 

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

I highly doubt there is a maester in TOJ. TOJ stood by secrecy and if they invited a maester from a noble castle to there, it is a high compromise to the secrecy. Maester has access to ravens, they have a lot of connections with noblemen and they read and write. It is just too risky for the little secret group of TOJ. Not to mention an archmaester. 

First, do you know when Marwyn became an archmaester? We know he is one in year 300 AC when Samwell Tarly meets him, but I pretty sure no one but George knows what Marwyn was doing seventeen years before when the Tower events occur and when Jon is born. As to having any maester there at all, I'd invite you to look for the number of noble women who give birth without a maester there. As I said, it is the norm.

And as I also said, if Lyanna is giving birth to anyone's son, but especially if it is Rhaegar's son, in a remote tower in the Prince's Pass it is far from the normal circumstances. How to square the two? It doesn't have to be done by eliminating the use of a maester. It just has to be a maester the people at the tower trust.

I think, from what we know of Marwyn, it is likely he fits that description. We know Rhaegar's interest in magic, prophecy, and dragons. We know that very few maesters obtain a Valryian Steel link in their chains of office, and much, much fewer, go on to specialize in that field of study. It makes sense Marwyn and Rhaegar would know each other because of this shared interest. The question is does that knowledge of each other grow into a bond of trust and friendship between the two? It is only speculation on my part, but I think it likely, and if I have to pick a candidate among the maesters we know were alive at the time, I'd pick him. It makes sense as a compromise between the need for medical help and the need for secrecy that they find someone they trust to help. And who knows, Marwyn may have been one of the six companions who travel to the Riverlands with Rhaegar. If so, they wouldn't have far to look. 

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

For wylla, I always feel she was hired from local villages before birth of jon, then she travelled with ned to starfall and then stayed there and was hired by house dayne. TOJ should have several servants unless lyanna, rhaegar and KG cook and clean the house themselves. They also need to buy some furnitures and living necessities. These people are likely hired from local since the very beginning, even before the abduction.  

All of this could be true, but if it is then how do we explain Wylla's and Ned's connection? If Wylla is a local wet nurse then she has a local history that can be checked. It is self-evident that a woman who works as a wet nurse has had a child of her own, and presumably the father can be traced and the family as well. How does this stand up to inspection from an interested investigator? My guess is not too well.

Which is why I think the Fisherman's daughter's tale is a cover story for Wylla in her home region. It confirms Wylla and Ned's knowledge of each other, and if one is to believe the tale their intimacy with each other. If someone comes looking to check Wylla's home region for her story's validity, then she has both her real history and a lord who backs her knowing Eddard Stark. Only problem then is getting them together again in the proper time frame. In the midst of war and rebellion the presence of one common woman in the rebel camp would be hard to confirm.

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

House dayne, IMHO, knew nothing about TOJ stuff. All they knew is ned killed arthur, and wylla came with ned and baby, then of course house dayne will believe she is mother of jon. 

Please explain why House Dayne then employs the mother of Jon as their own household servant, to the extent they allow her to be the wet nurse to the future lord of Starfall? This is a woman who is not only supposedly the lover of the man who killed Ser Arthur, but also the woman who wins Ned's heart from Ashara, leading her into suicide. Or so their story goes. It is a fascinating story, but one that makes little sense unless the Daynes do know that Jon is Rhaegar's son, and they are helping to hide him as the loyalist house they are.

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

If they knew about TOJ and sent wylla there, then they will not think she is Jon's mom. 

Of course, there can be a difference between what the people of Starfall believe, and what the then Lord and Lady of Starfall know to be true.

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

First, do you know when Marwyn became an archmaester? We know he is one in year 300 AC when Samwell Tarly meets him, but I pretty sure no one but George knows what Marwyn was doing seventeen years before when the Tower events occur and when Jon is born. As to having any maester there at all, I'd invite you to look for the number of noble women who give birth without a maester there. As I said, it is the norm.

And as I also said, if Lyanna is giving birth to anyone's son, but especially if it is Rhaegar's son, in a remote tower in the Prince's Pass it is far from the normal circumstances. How to square the two? It doesn't have to be done by eliminating the use of a maester. It just has to be a maester the people at the tower trust.

I think, from what we know of Marwyn, it is likely he fits that description. We know Rhaegar's interest in magic, prophecy, and dragons. We know that very few maesters obtain a Valryian Steel link in their chains of office, and much, much fewer, go on to specialize in that field of study. It makes sense Marwyn and Rhaegar would know each other because of this shared interest. The question is does that knowledge of each other grow into a bond of trust and friendship between the two? It is only speculation on my part, but I think it likely, and if I have to pick a candidate among the maesters we know were alive at the time, I'd pick him. It makes sense as a compromise between the need for medical help and the need for secrecy that they find someone they trust to help. And who knows, Marwyn may have been one of the six companions who travel to the Riverlands with Rhaegar. If so, they wouldn't have far to look. 

All of this could be true, but if it is then how do we explain Wylla's and Ned's connection? If Wylla is a local wet nurse then she has a local history that can be checked. It is self-evident that a woman who works as a wet nurse has had a child of her own, and presumably the father can be traced and the family as well. How does this stand up to inspection from an interested investigator? My guess is not too well.

Which is why I think the Fisherman's daughter's tale is a cover story for Wylla in her home region. It confirms Wylla and Ned's knowledge of each other, and if one is to believe the tale their intimacy with each other. If someone comes looking to check Wylla's home region for her story's validity, then she has both her real history and a lord who backs her knowing Eddard Stark. Only problem then is getting them together again in the proper time frame. In the midst of war and rebellion the presence of one common woman in the rebel camp would be hard to confirm.

Please explain why House Dayne then employs the mother of Jon as their own household servant, to the extent they allow her to be the wet nurse to the future lord of Starfall? This is a woman who is not only supposedly the lover of the man who killed Ser Arthur, but also the woman who wins Ned's heart from Ashara, leading her into suicide. Or so their story goes. It is a fascinating story, but one that makes little sense unless the Daynes do know that Jon is Rhaegar's son, and they are helping to hide him as the loyalist house they are.

Of course, there can be a difference between what the people of Starfall believe, and what the then Lord and Lady of Starfall know to be true.

It is interesting that you claimed a famous maester would cause no problem in secrecy but for a common woman you emphasized a lot on secrecy. For a chactcter like Marwyn, if he was in TOJ and survived, we would get some hints from GRRM. And it is interesting but too wild to imagine marwyn is one of adduction group because there is zero hint for that. 

For why they accepted wylla, well, orys killed aegella's father, why would she agree to marry him and bear him children? In that time, people understood war and duty. Just like Dorne did not send person or oberyn himself to kill lyn corbaray who killed Lewyn, people just accept this. They respected ned became he gave back their sword, not claim it by himself like tywin. This is a big favor. Dawn is not just a sword, for them, it is an extremely important 10000 Year old sword, symbol of their house.  Plus ashara was knocked up by Brandon, not ned. Maybe ned even proposed to marry her after she was abandoned by Brandon before the rebellion. So dayne was grateful for that possibility. If ned told them I knocked this dornish commoner woman during war, now I can not bring her back to north since this will anger my new wife, could you just let her become a servant here? I guess they will say yes. Not a big deal. 

And why wylla did not speak out the truth? I guess she understood if she spoke out jon is dragonspawn and she is the helper in this treason, then she will be killed too. 

 

 

[SFDanny]

9 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

It is interesting that you claimed a famous maester would cause no problem in secrecy but for a common woman you emphasized a lot on secrecy. For a chactcter like Marwyn, if he was in TOJ and survived, we would get some hints from GRRM. And it is interesting but too wild to imagine marwyn is one of adduction group because there is zero hint for that. 

No, I emphasize the same amount secrecy for both. If they are a part of the Tower of Joy party they must maintain a very low profile while hidden there. Just as any of the known members of the group, the kingsguard included, would have to do. As to just how "famous" Marwyn was in the build up to the rebellion and in it's immediate aftermath is unknown. I'd bet he was quite a bit less well known then than he is now, and the true "rock star" celebrities are the Kingsguard and Lyanna Stark.

purple-eyes, I realize this is just my speculation. Much like your speculation on the need for more servants at the Tower. We aren't going to prove any of it true without a lot of help from George. So far, he has been remarkably stingy in his help. But look at it this way, before last year we knew nothing of when or where or who was with Rhaegar at the "kidnapping." Now we know something and are able to speculate who made up the parties on both sides. My inclusion of Marwyn may well be just an idle mind looking for connections in the books that might not be there. I'm guessing not, of course, but George writing more is the only balm for this itch.

24 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

For why they accepted wylla, well, orys killed aegella's father, why would she agree to marry him and bear him children? In that time, people understood war and duty. Just like Dorne did not send person or oberyn himself to kill lyn corbaray who killed Lewyn, people just accept this. They respected ned became he gave back their sword, not claim it by himself like tywin. This is a big favor. Dawn is not just a sword, for them, it is an extremely important 10000 Year old sword, symbol of their house.

I realize the importance of the sword, Dawn. They go beyond what one would expect for its return. This is especially so if Ashara really does commit suicide from a broken heart as young Lord Ned Dayne tells Arya. We are asked to believe that not only do they accept Ned Stark's request to keep his supposed lover in Starfall, but that after Ashara commits suicide because of her feelings for Ned Stark, they in a few years, give over the care of the heir to Starfall to the same woman. It is all too much to be believed. It is much more likely they know who Jon is and help hide Wylla so their Prince's son can't be discovered.

36 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Plus ashara was knocked up by Brandon, not ned.

I think you're right, but we don't know this as a fact.

37 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Maybe ned even proposed to marry her after she was abandoned by Brandon before the rebellion. So dayne was grateful for that possibility.

Lord Eddard Stark is already married to Catelyn Stark, neé Tully. He can't propose to marry Lady Ashara after he has already married Cat.

40 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

If ned told them I knocked this dornish commoner woman during war, now I can not bring her back to north since this will anger my new wife, could you just let her become a servant here? I guess they will say yes. Not a big deal.

It becomes a huge deal if you believe the story as the Dayne's tell it. Ashara supposedly kills herself because of Ned's rejection of her, and then they employ the very woman he has a child with in their household, and as I pointed out before, they even give over the heir to their house to her care. You have to believe the Daynes are idiots and saints to think this story real.

45 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

And why wylla did not speak out the truth? I guess she understood if she spoke out jon is dragonspawn and she is the helper in this treason, then she will be killed too.

I suppose one could speculate the Daynes enforce her silence on the threat of death, but then that doesn't jibe with giving her the care of young Lord Ned does it? Why would the Lannisters or Robert or Varys or any other foe of Ned Stark think to harm her? They want her alive to testify to the truth, if she will do so. Think of Shae only much more valuable. The Lannisters alone would make her a wealthy woman for the rest of her life.

[purple-eyes]

45 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Lord Eddard Stark is already married to Catelyn Stark, neé Tully. He can't propose to marry Lady Ashara after he has already married Cat.

I meant that after Ashara was dishonored at HH, and before wedding of brandon, Ned or even Rickard possibly approaches Ashara or her family to propose to marry her since she was dishonored by Brandon but Brandon would not marry her due to his marriage with Cat. Then Brandon accidentally died so Ned had to marry Cat in his stead, then he could not marry Ashara. But House Dayne would still appreciate his effort and attitude. There was enough time between the tourney and the rebellion. Maybe even one year. But this is just a speculation. It is very likely to be wrong. This made Ned almost inhumanly good.

I felt Ashara did not love Ned. She loved Brandon. She killed herself mostly for the death of Brandon as well as Arthur and also her stillborn daughter, not for the rejection of Ned. GRRM kept Brandon's squire Glover pardoned by Mad King, then made him die in TOJ, all of these shouted that Ethan Glover is a messenger between Brandon and Ned.  I bet this is about Ashara.