Best explanations of Varys and Littlefinger? Motives, activities etc.

[finger]

I feel my argument is not complete. I've said what LF didn't try to get, but these are not motives.

He was making a living as Lysa's lover and Arryn's protegee, and all was fine. There are reasons to think that Robert Arryn was actually LF's. Then, Arryn starts messing round with bastardy and planning to have Robert fostered. Probably Lysa panicked and they ended up poisoning him.

There weren't open talks of murder, but when Robert went to WF, LF must have thought it was better to make the Lannisters suspected. Stannis knew of the Arryn's quest and he must have thought it was a Lannisters' deed, since he fled to DS and gather forces.

In this point of the story, LF is just trying to weaken the Lannisters and find a way to go to the Vale. It's the sudden appearance of Sansa that brings up old feelings and memories. Still, LF is powerless until the high lords begin to tear each other apart.

LF obviously thrives on Stark-Lannister enmity, and he searches for it. But he doesn't take for prisoner an innocent who only had designed a saddle for Bran,standing accused for trying to kill him, based on a chat on gambles, without even hearing his defense. Nor he wasted the chance to bring the Tyrels on his side in the fighting against the Lannisters.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

LV, Your memory could also be a bit confused with the HBO fanfic since in that Petyr did try to kindle (we can't really say rekindle since it was never reciprocated) his love for Catelyn in that story. You shoulda brought your books on vacation--seems like you're due for a reread instead of watching reruns

Well, even if I'm mistaken about that, it isn't really crucial for my view on Littlefinger.

My main point is that Sansa replaced Catelyn in Littlefinger's heart as soon as he saw her, and that he also gave up any hope to regain Catelyn after they had met.

Perhaps he still would have tried to win her back if he hadn't met Sansa. But he did meet her, so that's done.

Another core thing to keep in mind is from ACoK. Sansa finds Littlefinger's note about returning back home in her bed immediately after Tyrion's false offer to send him as his envoy to the Vale and before Tyrion reveals that he has lied to Littlefinger about that.

That means that Littlefinger actually intended to smuggle Sansa out of the castle and take her with him to Lysa when he left KL in ACoK (which then never did). He certainly had no intention to postpone this whole thing for months if he was leaving KL in the very near future.

The promise to take her home might actually have been sincere at this point since, you know, Winterfell hadn't been destroyed yet, and Bran, Rickon, Robb, and Cat were all (officially) still alive. Not to mention that the political situation wasn't exactly favoring the Lannisters at this point. Renly was still alive, and Stannis and Renly hadn't begun fighting each other.

What would Littlefinger have done after he and Sansa had safely reached the Vale? He would most likely have revealed with whom he had come to the Vale at once, and the Vale would have entered the war and fought against the Lannisters.

Not to mention that with Littlefinger in the Vale there wouldn't have been a Joffrey-Margaery betrothal and no Lannister-Tyrell alliance.

[BalerionTheCat]

On 5/2/2016 at 2:09 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yes, after The Ned had been tossed into the black cells, of course it was easier and cheaper to manipulate him into having The Ned's head lopped off. But that's not when he prayed for Faceless Man to give his nemesis the gift.

If Petyr prayed for a Faceless Man to give the gift to The Ned it was just before or as A Game of Thrones opened. 

Truth now, at that time, could Littlefinger have foreseen the events that unfolded in Arya V, Game 65? 

I feel there is a religious part in using a Faceless assassin. You pay them because you have to kill someone in your family. And because you fear the gods' punishment for kinslaying. But I really don't see LF a religious man, or praying any god. For him, the cheapest method will be the best one. And a Faceless man would be too much honor for Ned. The public execution and humiliation was much better.

I could see Euron using a Faceless man for his brother. Not wanting to kill him directly, by fear of kingslaying and kinslaying. But not LF.

Of course Ned, by his honorable actions, nearly put his own head on the block. And LF had very little to do. He could not have expected it would be so easy. But given how LF manipulated the Tyrell, I'm sure he was confident in his own abilities. And he takes pride in outwitting everyone else.

[BalerionTheCat]

On 5/2/2016 at 2:09 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yes, after The Ned had been tossed into the black cells, of course it was easier and cheaper to manipulate him into having The Ned's head lopped off. But that's not when he prayed for Faceless Man to give his nemesis the gift.

If Petyr prayed for a Faceless Man to give the gift to The Ned it was just before or as A Game of Thrones opened. 

Truth now, at that time, could Littlefinger have foreseen the events that unfolded in Arya V, Game 65? 

I feel there is a religious part in using a Faceless assassin. You pay them because you have to kill someone in your family. And because you fear the gods' punishment for kinslaying. But I really don't see LF a religious man, or praying any god. For him, the cheapest method will be the best one. And a Faceless man would be too much honor for Ned. The public execution and humiliation was much better.

I could see Euron using a Faceless man for his brother. Not wanting to kill him directly, by fear of kingslaying and kinslaying. But not LF.

Of course Ned, by his honorable actions, nearly put his own head on the block. And LF had very little to do. He could not have expected it would be so easy. But given how LF manipulated the Tyrell, I'm sure he was confident in his own abilities. And he takes pride in outwitting everyone else.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 2/6/2016 at 5:13 AM, finger said:

It's funny how different people read the same passage in different ways.

LF was making his best to survive. He was an Arryn's man at face value and, after his death and Robert's, he desperately needs someone to support him. He plainly states that Stannis would sack him. He leaves untold that Cersei would name Tywin as hand. In his utmost despair, LF is as candid as it can be, but Ned wouldn't listen. What he was proposing meant life and power, but Ned chooses death, his own fault. LF is left no more than brown-nosing the Lannisters. After all, what did he owe to the Starks, but a huge scar?

When chaos reigns, LF can outmanoeuvre anyone but, in the beginning of the series, he was just trying not to be trodden over by some high lord, as he had since he felt Riverrun.

That's so true. I am completely convinced that Aegon is the Blackfyre and that Varys and Illyrio are supporting him for that reason. But I find there are very smart folks here who see it differently based on their alternative reading of the same stuff. Unless something is completely crackpot we should listen to other points of view rather than say they make no sense. 

[finger]

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I feel there is a religious part in using a Faceless assassin. You pay them because you have to kill someone in your family. And because you fear the gods' punishment for kinslaying. But I really don't see LF a religious man, or praying any god. For him, the cheapest method will be the best one. And a Faceless man would be too much honor for Ned. The public execution and humiliation was much better.

I could see Euron using a Faceless man for his brother. Not wanting to kill him directly, by fear of kingslaying and kinslaying. But not LF.

Of course Ned, by his honorable actions, nearly put his own head on the block. And LF had very little to do. He could not have expected it would be so easy. But given how LF manipulated the Tyrell, I'm sure he was confident in his own abilities. And he takes pride in outwitting everyone else.

I see you seem to stick to LF killing Ned. Don't listen to me, but to Varys:

"What strange fit of madness led you to tell the queen that you had learned the truth of Joffrey's birth?"

"It was not wine that killed the King. It was your mercy."

"You have been foolish, my lord. You ought to have heeded Littlefinger when he urged you to support Joffrey's succession."

Why waste your wealth or effort killing people, when they kill themselves left on their own? 

 

 

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, finger said:

I see you seem to stick to LF killing Ned. Don't listen to me, but to Varys:

"What strange fit of madness led you to tell the queen that you had learned the truth of Joffrey's birth?"

"It was not wine that killed the King. It was your mercy."

"You have been foolish, my lord. You ought to have heeded Littlefinger when he urged you to support Joffrey's succession."

Why waste your wealth or effort killing people, when they kill themselves left on their own? 

LF didn't spend a penny for killing Ned. OK, he bought the Gold cloak. But it was the queen's gold I suppose. Ned was probably going to kill himself, one day. But I suppose people like LF take great pleasure in killing people by their own intervention. Because LF had a grudge toward Ned.

[King Renly]

That is an excellent thead, I always felt a bit guilty to see myself rooting for LF but you guys took that shame away. you go Petyr !

[chrisdaw]

LF is motivated by greed and ego, he has a chip on his shoulder against the whole world for having lost Catelyn as a youth. Westeros values birth and brawn, he is going to prove to them that they're wrong to do so, that his qualities are superior.

 

Varys wants what he believes is overall best for the realm, and he's not afraid to get his hands dirty to achieve it. Specifically he believes that a King with what he believes are the characteristics of Aegon ruling a united realm is the best Westeros can achieve. Current day Varys was created when Robert turned a blind eye to Tywin murdering the children, it was then he went from loyal servant to active player, as it became clear to him that him doing what he was supposed to do, being the loyal servant, didn't work out for the realm, it actually worsened the realm, so he has ditched that approach and gone all in.

[finger]

17 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

LF didn't spend a penny for killing Ned. OK, he bought the Gold cloak. But it was the queen's gold I suppose. Ned was probably going to kill himself, one day. But I suppose people like LF take great pleasure in killing people by their own intervention. Because LF had a grudge toward Ned.

Sure it was Lannister's gold. LF is the master of coin, but somewhere it's stated that the crown was three million dragons short with Tywin, among other debts. I found it an irony when LF tells Ned that the gold cloaks would support him who pays them. Ned should have known where the money was.

Otoh, I don't think LF cares of other people living or dying. He's too busy loving himself, and pursuing his own goals.  He only had Arryn murdered, and I'd say because of Lysa's will. He doesn't waste a thought if not for his own sake. Until Sansa shows up...

[A Black Hole of Ice & Fire]

On 2/4/2016 at 2:14 PM, Thuckey said:

AS much as it is denied, I think LF DID in fact hire Jaquin to kill Ned on the way to the wall. How the fuck else would a facelessman (The worlds most feared and skillful assassins) find himself stuck in a cage with the likes of Biter and the other one?

 

Jaquan's face itself what likely that of a prisoner whose identity he stole to infiltrate the black cells. After the Mountains men destroyed all hope of them ever reaching the wall, Jaquan then easily escaped when he felt like it. Perhaps to a certain swinging bridge? Speculation but interesting.

 

Also as for his friendship with Arya despite him being the guy hired to kill her father, facelessmen are trained to be "noone" and therefore remain neutral and could easily befriend the daughter of a lord he was meant to kill without feeling much bothered by it. Also the fact that Arya is "Ta'veren" (The Wheel of Time's way of explaining plot armour) and perhaps those with magical abilities feel fundamentally drawn to her. As is Bran, Tyrion, Dany, etc

It seems like Varys is making sure his nephew is also the best candidate. Otherwise what was the point of all the training they put Aemon through? If the goal is only to see a Blackfyre on the throne then they'd simply need to make sure his real identity is well hidden. They went way above and beyond with his education. Now he's not only the best prepared out of the current contenders, he's the best in generations (at least in theory). 

I think this shows the fundamental difference between Varys and Littlefinger. They both are plotting to get their candidate on the throne. However, Varys is at least trying to make sure his nephew is worthy. Littlefinger would put Robert Strong on the throne if it helped him achieve his ambition.

[delspark]

On 2/1/2016 at 7:43 AM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

 

As for LF, he wants revenge and power.  As a boy he fell in love with Cat, but was not of "noble" enough blood to marry her.  Then when he challenged Brandon for her, his best friend squired for Brandon.  When he got Lysa pregnant Hoster, the man who raised him had her abort the baby.  LF is out for revenge and power.  Revenge against the houses that wronged him, and all the power he can get so that no 1 can ever look down on him again.

This and

On 2/1/2016 at 8:39 AM, Makk said:

 I believe most of what he said to Kevan at the end of dance is true from Varys's perspective. I have a feeling that is what we are going to get. We will learn he isn't the rightful king, but see that he is a good and fair king, which will make things much more morally ambiguous when Daenerys arrives.

"No." The eunuch's voice seemed deeper. "He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."

 

This! My thoughts exactly.

This! My thoughts exactly.

 

LF aims to destroy all the Great Houses to restore his pride. He is buthurt and everyone treats him like some baseborn even when he was a Coins Master. No one talks with LF because he is LF, but they talk with him because he has his ways with " money". All those people wouldn't look back at him twice if he din't have the title Coins Master. In much simpler terms "seeking attention/glory", something that acknowledges his talent rather than his background.

 

Varys was exposed to injustice way back when he was a kid. He was an orphan who earned a living by being a slave. Later he was sold by his master to a maegi. After that he was thrown on the streets and had to resort to begging, thievery. All this could have been avoided if only there was a good and fair king, who would abolish slavery and protect orphans.

 

That's why Varys is striving hard to hand over the kingdom to a king who will understand the difficulties of common folks. A king who would look after the welfare of his people instead of a king who puts his people in war for his own benefits.

 

Note: Most of his employees in his spy network are orphan kids. He gives the them the basic utilities like food, shelter, clothing, education which a proper king should have provided.

 

[delspark]

On 2/7/2016 at 6:33 AM, chrisdaw said:

LF is motivated by greed and ego, he has a chip on his shoulder against the whole world for having lost Catelyn as a youth. Westeros values birth and brawn, he is going to prove to them that they're wrong to do so, that his qualities are superior.

Ditto!

[jamprab]

 

Varys end game:

 

Varys is the last remaining of the Blackfyre line.  He was gelded by the Targaryens, who condemned him to live knowing his line would die with him.  If the sorcerer was using blood magic, why wouldn't he burn Varys entirely or at the very least keep him for some future need?  The Blackfyre's rebelled several times, and such a punishment would not be beyond the limits of the Mad King.  

 

Varys wants to achieve the Blackfyre's ultimate goal before he dies.  He wants the Iron Throne.  He also wants to extinguish the Targaryen line before the Blackfyre line dies.

 

The mummers he traveled with were the Bloody Mummers (The Golden Company)   The company must have sold him.  In the books he will likely take revenge on them as well.

 

Also Tyrion is definitely a Targaryen.  If you check out Aerys's previous kids you see a lot of deformed ones that didn't make it.  Daenerys child was also deformed in the same manner.  Tyrion was less so because Joanna was not Aerys's relative.

[Thuckey]

For people that say faceless men are too expensive for LF to have hired him to kill Ned..

 

If the Master of COIN wants the HAND OF THE KING dead, and faceless men are too pricy - WHEN THE HELL WOULD THEY BE APPROPRIATE?

 

Seriously though. I always never understood that argument.. if anything it's exactly a situation where a faceless man is needed to avoid botching it.

[Lost Melnibonean]

11 minutes ago, Thuckey said:

For people that say faceless men are too expensive for LF to have hired him to kill Ned..

 

If the Master of COIN wants the HAND OF THE KING dead, and faceless men are too pricy - WHEN THE HELL WOULD THEY BE APPROPRIATE?

 

Seriously though. I always never understood that argument.. if anything it's exactly a situation where a faceless man is needed to avoid botching it.

Nice. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

4 hours ago, Thuckey said:

For people that say faceless men are too expensive for LF to have hired him to kill Ned..

 

If the Master of COIN wants the HAND OF THE KING dead, and faceless men are too pricy - WHEN THE HELL WOULD THEY BE APPROPRIATE?

 

Seriously though. I always never understood that argument.. if anything it's exactly a situation where a faceless man is needed to avoid botching it.

When you care about something more than your own life, which LF absolutely does not.  The price is based on the difficulty of the hit and the ability of the person doing the hiring to pay.  The Waifs father had to pay with his own daughter and either 2/3rds or half of his wealth.  LF would reasonably speaking have to have given up ownership of his brothels, lordship, something which doesn't happen.  He spends money lavishly throughout the story, including buying up Vale lords debts and paying expensive dowry's, he simply does not show any sign of having paid for a FM, unlike with Balon where we get confirmation that Euron hired a FM.  Surely if GRRM wanted us to even think maybe LF did so, he would have included some little snippet like the man without a face on a bridge thing with Baon.

[Raisin' Bran]

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 7:50 PM, jamprab said:

Varys end game:

Varys is the last remaining of the Blackfyre line.  He was gelded by the Targaryens, who condemned him to live knowing his line would die with him.  If the sorcerer was using blood magic, why wouldn't he burn Varys entirely or at the very least keep him for some future need?  The Blackfyre's rebelled several times, and such a punishment would not be beyond the limits of the Mad King.  

Varys wants to achieve the Blackfyre's ultimate goal before he dies.  He wants the Iron Throne.  He also wants to extinguish the Targaryen line before the Blackfyre line dies.

The mummers he traveled with were the Bloody Mummers (The Golden Company)   The company must have sold him.  In the books he will likely take revenge on them as well.

Also Tyrion is definitely a Targaryen.  If you check out Aerys's previous kids you see a lot of deformed ones that didn't make it.  Daenerys child was also deformed in the same manner.  Tyrion was less so because Joanna was not Aerys's relative.

Those are some rather big assumptions there. Perhaps you may want to discuss the finer points in a different thread.

Which Targaryen had Varys gelded? And why then did Aerys bring him to court?

Why is the Mummer troop the Bloody Mummers, who are really the Golden Company?

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

When you care about something more than your own life, which LF absolutely does not.  The price is based on the difficulty of the hit and the ability of the person doing the hiring to pay.  The Waifs father had to pay with his own daughter and either 2/3rds or half of his wealth.  LF would reasonably speaking have to have given up ownership of his brothels, lordship, something which doesn't happen.  He spends money lavishly throughout the story, including buying up Vale lords debts and paying expensive dowry's, he simply does not show any sign of having paid for a FM, unlike with Balon where we get confirmation that Euron hired a FM.  Surely if GRRM wanted us to even think maybe LF did so, he would have included some little snippet like the man without a face on a bridge thing with Baon.

Perhaps he did...

Quote

Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

If Petyr is Bran's giant, then George described Petyr with black blood, which symbolizes death, under a visor, where his face should have been. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

18 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Perhaps he did...

If Petyr is Bran's giant, then George described Petyr with black blood, which symbolizes death, under a visor, where his face should have been. 

While I can't refute that, I would still suggest that it being Gregor is more likely when Gregor is a reanimated corpse who never reveals his face.