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Best explanations of Varys and Littlefinger? Motives, activities etc.


Thuckey

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Varys and Littlefinger are very similar in their own ways, albeit also very interesting and unique to the genre and are real wild cards when it comes to the overarching plot - although some may say they are also the REASON for why the plot happened as it did. They both work in secret, often times things that have happened that they are responsible for get blamed on entirely different people or is just gone unnoticed completely.

Littlefinger is almost certainly evil and dangerous, though most of the world looks at him as a pushover to which he in fact uses to his advantage. You could argue that he is the one single person that has done the most damage in Westeros and at the same time nobody knows it. Except for maybe.. Varys.

 

Varys is more a mystery. I would saw more gray of a character, neither good or evil but is also responsible for his own share of havoc.The world however does have some inkling as to his true self and he also uses that to his advantage - he carries with him a certain aura of power and knowledge which people tend to fear or rely on.

 

In book 1, they each had their own agendas which revolved around Ned Stark. It's hard to say which happenings were each their faults, and whether their plans were going against each others or coinciding. The reader is given relatively limited information to sort this out himself, and little by little things are revealed as each book comes out.

 

So I ask the experts - Bombard me with all of the theories or knowledge you possible can muster when it comes to Varys and Littlefinger. Perhaps two of the series most interesting characters, but also each does not have a POV so it's hard to figure out just what they are up to all the time. Any info on motives and their activities during their off-time in the books would be greatly appreciated! They intrigue me utterly but still after two read I'm still scratching my head just figuring out the whole picture. 

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Well, on Varys in book one or after that he didn't have any special interest in Eddard Stark.
He just needed to speed up his civil war, the on Illyrio was pressuring him for in Arya's chapter, the only moment in which, in the solitude of their conspiration, they talked the truth, unknowing of the black cat with one eye (and a thousand?) that brought Arya there to listen them.
Varys motive is putting "Aegon" on the throne, which is his nephew through his sister Serra, the beloved Illyrio's dead wife and the last Blackfyre on the female line. Nothing has to do with the "good of the Realm" with which this valyrian named (and not surnamed) stranger has no ties.
Or that's my take, at least, even if someone else had to point me out the "why", the Serra bits.

Baelish...
Baelish is a descendant of a family coming from Braavos and is names suspiciously like "Bael the Bard" of northern memory, the inspiration of Abel for Mance and someone that had a very strange relationship with the daughter of a Stark - actually he kidnapped her.
It could be coincidence but...
Are we sure that Baelish just wants chaos to climb his ladder, trusting his plot armour not to be swept away while he gets his revenge on the family of Brandon Stark?

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It's their end games that create the sharpest contrasts in the characters. Littlefinger wants to destroy the status quo of Westeros, most likely to create real and long-lasting power for himself as opposed to acting through proxies.

Varys on the other hand wants to use the status quo as a tool, not replace it. His end game seems to be to out Aegon on the throne, and as I personally prescribe to the Aegon Blackfyre theory his undermining of both Aerys and Robert's reigns can be understood inthat light.

As far as morality, no matter what you think of Varys he clearly shows mercy at times he doesn't really need to but withholds information from morally good characters to preserve his own neck. So he's about as gray a character as you can get. Littlefinger is the closest GRRM will ever get to creating an arch-villain a la Sauron, as his reach is vast and there is really nothing off limits for him. He really just wants to see mass destruction, which he feels completely justified in.

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23 hours ago, mediterraneo said:

Well, on Varys in book one or after that he didn't have any special interest in Eddard Stark.
He just needed to speed up his civil war, the on Illyrio was pressuring him for in Arya's chapter, the only moment in which, in the solitude of their conspiration, they talked the truth, unknowing of the black cat with one eye (and a thousand?) that brought Arya there to listen them.
Varys motive is putting "Aegon" on the throne, which is his nephew through his sister Serra, the beloved Illyrio's dead wife and the last Blackfyre on the female line. Nothing has to do with the "good of the Realm" with which this valyrian named (and not surnamed) stranger has no ties.
Or that's my take, at least, even if someone else had to point me out the "why", the Serra bits.

Baelish...
Baelish is a descendant of a family coming from Braavos and is names suspiciously like "Bael the Bard" of northern memory, the inspiration of Abel for Mance and someone that had a very strange relationship with the daughter of a Stark - actually he kidnapped her.
It could be coincidence but...
Are we sure that Baelish just wants chaos to climb his ladder, trusting his plot armour not to be swept away while he gets his revenge on the family of Brandon Stark?

Hi,

Allow me to correct some little details. Illyrio liked better waiting, and is Varys who presses. He even says that dothraki wouldn't stir unless they were prompted to. They suggest that their game was to oust the Baratheons and reinstall the Targs. And, more important, that that was not a two gamers play any more. We can guess that Varys was not aware of LF,s moves.

Accordingly, Varys reveals to the council that Danaeris is with child,  eventually involving them in some blotch of murder. It made the dothraki stir, indeed.

LF's moves are more difficult to classify. My take is that he was playing defence. I think he is Robin's father, and he and Lysa decide to kill Jon Arryn out of fear to be discovered. They try to blame the Lannisters just in case someone would speak up poison. It's just the same reason why Cersei and Jaime want to kill Robert. Of course, once it all began, he played his cards, and made sure to get as many trumps as he could. I don't think he really thought to reach so high.

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It's all about trade.  The Free Cities have the best manufacturing facilities in the wide world, but they're running out of raw materials.  Sam found this out when he tried to buy firewood in Braavos.

What does that have to do with Varys and LF?  Lots,  Westeros has endless forests and fields, mines and fisheries.  So 2 groups from Essos are trying to control Westerosi trade through covert manipulation.  Braavos through Littlefinger and Pentos through Varys.

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23 minutes ago, Roose on the Loose said:

It's all about trade.  The Free Cities have the best manufacturing facilities in the wide world, but they're running out of raw materials.  Sam found this out when he tried to buy firewood in Braavos.

What does that have to do with Varys and LF?  Lots,  Westeros has endless forests and fields, mines and fisheries.  So 2 groups from Essos are trying to control Westerosi trade through covert manipulation.  Braavos through Littlefinger and Pentos through Varys.

 Interesting theory! I am not sure I buy it, but it's definitely the kind of thing I would think of in a real-world situation.

On 1/29/2016 at 4:16 PM, finger said:

LF's moves are more difficult to classify. My take is that he was playing defence. I think he is Robin's father, and he and Lysa decide to kill Jon Arryn out of fear to be discovered. They try to blame the Lannisters just in case someone would speak up poison. It's just the same reason why Cersei and Jaime want to kill Robert. Of course, once it all began, he played his cards, and made sure to get as many trumps as he could. I don't think he really thought to reach so high.

I really like this motivation for LF. It explains why he's moved so unpredictably so far. I think it's not the whole story, though - I think he's a very smart man with grudges and pettiness aplenty. He definitely moved to kill Ned and generally work against the Starks, as well as to maximize his own wealth. I think he also knows that Varys is his equal and that they are by default enemies, so he also acts proactively in this regard.

 

I think that Varys may know about LF's secret, too, but still understands that he's dangerous. Varys does try to get Ned to distrust LF, and his comments about Hugh of the Vale are also true about LF - Varys may have both tested Ned and hoped to eliminate a potential rival in one stroke.

I do not believe Varys cares for the Targs - he fed Aerys' paranoia for years. He must have known what that was doing to him and the regime; and besides, if Rhaegar was really such a better candidate as literally everyone else thinks, why would Varys even bother opposing him? It's not as though Varys has any problem with coups, clearly. No, I think that Varys + Illyrio are motivated by family, desire to rise high, and possibly big-picture economic reasons. I think that Faegon may be some sort of Blackfyre/Brightflame/Brightfyre, but it won't be dwelled on in the story - just an easter egg from GRRM for the fans.

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1 hour ago, Roose on the Loose said:

It's all about trade.  The Free Cities have the best manufacturing facilities in the wide world, but they're running out of raw materials.  Sam found this out when he tried to buy firewood in Braavos.

What does that have to do with Varys and LF?  Lots,  Westeros has endless forests and fields, mines and fisheries.  So 2 groups from Essos are trying to control Westerosi trade through covert manipulation.  Braavos through Littlefinger and Pentos through Varys.

This makes incredible sense.  Also, if Illyrio managed to rid Essos of the Dothraki via Daenerys, the Dothraki Sea could then be used for resources, settling, etc.

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4 hours ago, Roose on the Loose said:

It's all about trade.  The Free Cities have the best manufacturing facilities in the wide world, but they're running out of raw materials.  Sam found this out when he tried to buy firewood in Braavos.

What does that have to do with Varys and LF?  Lots,  Westeros has endless forests and fields, mines and fisheries.  So 2 groups from Essos are trying to control Westerosi trade through covert manipulation.  Braavos through Littlefinger and Pentos through Varys.

Norvos and Qohor are surrounded by trees. Braavos and the seas around her abound with fish but her brackish marshes don't nurture trees, so wood might be dear but it could be had much more cheaply from her sister cities, I think. Coal would be an obvious substitute but I don't recall any mention in the series. Maybe because the dinosaurs are still alive and kicking in Sothoryos.

Mines would be a much more likely target for such trade. I could see the mines on essos being played out.

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Maybe this is the wrong thread, but can anyone explain to me why fifteen-year-old LF challenged twenty-year-old Brandon to a duel for Catelyn's hand if he knew her father would never approve and that he'd probably end up dead? Does that make sense with the LF we know of now? Did he change? Did he really love Cat? Was he mad with love?

I still think there's something about Varys that we don't know and that even Illyrio doesn't know. Don't believe he wants to reinstall the Targaryens but don't believe in the theory of fAegon being Illyrio's son and his nephew either.

What I get is that they both need the realm to be as unstable as possible so they can get power.

 

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Varys is blood of the dragon for sure, otherwise there was no reason to give us the line "Only the blood of the dragon shall ever know the secrets of the Red Keep"  I believe his sister Serra was Ilyrios wife and Aegons mom as said above.

As for LF, he wants revenge and power.  As a boy he fell in love with Cat, but was not of "noble" enough blood to marry her.  Then when he challenged Brandon for her, his best friend squired for Brandon.  When he got Lysa pregnant Hoster, the man who raised him had her abort the baby.  LF is out for revenge and power.  Revenge against the houses that wronged him, and all the power he can get so that no 1 can ever look down on him again.

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On ‎28‎/‎01‎/‎2016 at 10:49 AM, mediterraneo said:


Varys motive is putting "Aegon" on the throne, which is his nephew through his sister Serra, the beloved Illyrio's dead wife and the last Blackfyre on the female line. Nothing has to do with the "good of the Realm" with which this valyrian named (and not surnamed) stranger has no ties.

In general I agreed with what you said, but putting Aegon on the throne, knowing full well he isn't a Targaryen, does not mean he isn't doing what he believes is for the good of the realm. I believe most of what he said to Kevan at the end of dance is true from Varys's perspective. I have a feeling that is what we are going to get. We will learn he isn't the rightful king, but see that he is a good and fair king, which will make things much more morally ambiguous when Daenerys arrives.

"No." The eunuch's voice seemed deeper. "He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."

 

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On 1/28/2016 at 4:49 PM, mediterraneo said:

Well, on Varys in book one or after that he didn't have any special interest in Eddard Stark.
He just needed to speed up his civil war, the on Illyrio was pressuring him for in Arya's chapter, the only moment in which, in the solitude of their conspiration, they talked the truth, unknowing of the black cat with one eye (and a thousand?) that brought Arya there to listen them.
Varys motive is putting "Aegon" on the throne, which is his nephew through his sister Serra, the beloved Illyrio's dead wife and the last Blackfyre on the female line. Nothing has to do with the "good of the Realm" with which this valyrian named (and not surnamed) stranger has no ties.
Or that's my take, at least, even if someone else had to point me out the "why", the Serra bits.

Baelish...
Baelish is a descendant of a family coming from Braavos and is names suspiciously like "Bael the Bard" of northern memory, the inspiration of Abel for Mance and someone that had a very strange relationship with the daughter of a Stark - actually he kidnapped her.
It could be coincidence but...
Are we sure that Baelish just wants chaos to climb his ladder, trusting his plot armour not to be swept away while he gets his revenge on the family of Brandon Stark?

I wouldn't say it's a coincidence too much. Bael-ish is an interesting thing to take into consideration when you begin comparing the common elements of "stark maid kidnapped" "a rose" "a singer bard" "a deceiver", a woman who dies by falling from a height, and a "babe" are all mixed up in all the tellings--just given to different characters. In some, the roles are combined into one character or in others they're separated, but these common recurrences seems to suggest a "variation on a theme" kind of story going on. In one telling the babe lives and is made Lord of Winterfell, in another, the babe is aborted, etc. The elements are all there and are common from retelling to retelling, just mixed up with different results each time. In one variation the bard figure lives and becomes a king to tell his own story through song and story, in another the bard dies before he can achieve anything of the like, and in another the bard is the scapegoat all the blame is put upon.

We could go on and on, but I think you get the idea. I don't think these recurrences are coincidences--but are more Variations on a Theme.

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1 hour ago, WhitewolfStark said:

I wouldn't say it's a coincidence too much. Bael-ish is an interesting thing to take into consideration when you begin comparing the common elements of "stark maid kidnapped" "a rose" "a singer bard" "a deceiver", a woman who dies by falling from a height, and a "babe" are all mixed up in all the tellings--just given to different characters. In some, the roles are combined into one character or in others they're separated, but these common recurrences seems to suggest a "variation on a theme" kind of story going on. In one telling the babe lives and is made Lord of Winterfell, in another, the babe is aborted, etc. The elements are all there and are common from retelling to retelling, just mixed up with different results each time. In one variation the bard figure lives and becomes a king to tell his own story through song and story, in another the bard dies before he can achieve anything of the like, and in another the bard is the scapegoat all the blame is put upon.

Well, you know I agree with this :):

Plus, you have the woman thrown from a tower. And the Bael figure eventually ending up dead at the hands of his "child." 

1 hour ago, WhitewolfStark said:

We could go on and on, but I think you get the idea. I don't think these recurrences are coincidences--but are more Variations on a Theme.

:agree:

A set of variations that gives us hints at what's coming. Martin's given us plenty of reason to think Baelish is nowhere near over his rejection from Cat. And he's keeping Sansa under wraps (under a Stone) for reasons that are NOT about her. Bael only wanted to stick it to the Stark in Winterfell at first. When he became king beyond the Wall, he invaded the north. And was killed by his child.

The idea that Bael-ish has plans to take over a lot more than just the north--that seems to be on the table. As is his eventual demise.

Per the OP: I'm not yet sure on Varys. Is he also a deceiver-like figure? Like Bael? Something else? Not sure.

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5 hours ago, Makk said:

In general I agreed with what you said, but putting Aegon on the throne, knowing full well he isn't a Targaryen, does not mean he isn't doing what he believes is for the good of the realm. I believe most of what he said to Kevan at the end of dance is true from Varys's perspective. I have a feeling that is what we are going to get. We will learn he isn't the rightful king, but see that he is a good and fair king, which will make things much more morally ambiguous when Daenerys arrives.

"No." The eunuch's voice seemed deeper. "He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."

 

We will see, it is possible.
I don't believe it is true, though.

  1. I don't think a man like Varys would have such a faith in the qualities of a man he doesn't know, even if he really thinks the grooming he is getting was really a good one.
  2. Another explaination is not needed.
    You either chose your nephew or a good candidate, it is statistically quite difficult that between all of the boys in the world Aegon is both the only one that is his nephew and the one that is better suited to rule based on his earthly characteristics.
  3. One way to solve point tow would be some un-earthly spin.
    If Varys was a faithful in some "Azor Ahai" profecy, ot The Prince That Was Promised, that could work.
    But I understand that Varys doesn't particularily like the R'hollor church (maybe I'm influenced by the show in this) and that TPTWP was profetized in another line than his one. To me, it doesn't seem likely that Varys believes in either.
  4. Again on the quality of the candidate. The quality of it has to be vary good, to be worth more to the Realm than sparing a couple of civil wars and still be worth it.

Cheers.

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I believe Varys is a descendant of Aerion "Brightflame" Targaryen as was his sister Serra, who married Illyrio; a Blackfyre descendant through the female line.  Producing fAegon. Whom they now plan on passing off as Rhaegar & Elia's son. 

LF I believe is what he seems, a bitter little man hell bent on revenge and power. 

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The whole trade thing is an interesting take. If true GRRM once again impresses me with how well thought out everything is.

 

There is a reason why these books take so long to write.

 

Does anybody know how long it took him to actually finish book 1 ? 

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AS much as it is denied, I think LF DID in fact hire Jaquin to kill Ned on the way to the wall. How the fuck else would a facelessman (The worlds most feared and skillful assassins) find himself stuck in a cage with the likes of Biter and the other one?

 

Jaquan's face itself what likely that of a prisoner whose identity he stole to infiltrate the black cells. After the Mountains men destroyed all hope of them ever reaching the wall, Jaquan then easily escaped when he felt like it. Perhaps to a certain swinging bridge? Speculation but interesting.

 

Also as for his friendship with Arya despite him being the guy hired to kill her father, facelessmen are trained to be "noone" and therefore remain neutral and could easily befriend the daughter of a lord he was meant to kill without feeling much bothered by it. Also the fact that Arya is "Ta'veren" (The Wheel of Time's way of explaining plot armour) and perhaps those with magical abilities feel fundamentally drawn to her. As is Bran, Tyrion, Dany, etc

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