Syrio took Meryn's face?

[Light a wight tonight]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Haha ya thinking of wether Jaquen was a real person who was "given the gift" or just a false identity, while pointless I suppose,is kinda funny

Which Jaqen? The original or the replacement? We've seen that FM take the place of Pate at the Citadel. Pate was simply killed, not given "the gift". The FM formerly known as Jaqen and the Alchemist seems not to be restricted by the normal FM code. He kills at need.

If you want pointless, why take Meryn's face? Meryn is still around and there's no reason for an FM to hang around King's Landing.

[tallTale]

Without definitive knowledge we have to look at the possible scenarios and guess which is most probable:

first scenario:

A faceless man is paid to assassinate someone important. You wouldn't hire a faceless man otherwise.

He either is caught during or after the assassination attempt by the city watch despite having intimate details of kings landing and its inhabitants;city watch included.

He is sent to the dungeons. Now considering this involved someone important you would think he'd be beheaded aleady, but we'll leave that alone for now.

second scenario:

A facelss man is paid to assassinate someone important. You wouldn't hire a faceless man otherwise.

He either succeeds or the attempt was already done by someone else.

He wants to get out of KL, but Cersei has made that impossible by locking the gates.

He feels the only way out is though the night's watch recruitment. He breaks/sneaks into the cell and takes the face of one of its prisoners.

He gets in trouble later in the story because he never suspects the night's watch would be attacked. It is common knowledge that they take no sides. He probably thought it be an easy ride to the wall. it's actually an elegant plan now that i think about it.

I would have to say scenario 2 is much more plausible.

[RumHam]

7 minutes ago, tallTale said:

A faceless man is paid to assassinate someone important. You wouldn't hire a faceless man otherwise.

Define important. Was the Waif's mother really important? The insurance broker Arya poisons? I think you're wrongly convinced that they only kill high profile targets. This is not the case. 

7 minutes ago, tallTale said:

He wants to get out of KL, but Cersei has made that impossible by locking the gates.

He feels the only way out is though the night's watch recruitment. He breaks/sneaks into the cell and takes the face of one of its prisoners.

Here's where your logic falls apart. Yoren was not exclusively taking prisoners. Gendry for example was never incarcerated. Jaquen could have just approached Yoren and volunteered. When he was jailed he would have had no way of knowing that Yoren was going to take the prisoners from the Black Cells. 

[tallTale]

Quote

Define important. Was the Waif's mother really important? The insurance broker Arya poisons? I think you're wrongly convinced that they only kill high profile targets. This is not the case.

We don't know why Arya is sent to kill the broker. It wasn't a contract that we know. Generally if you go the trouble of hiring a faceless man it's going to be a big deal.

Quote

Here's where you logic falls apart. Yoren was not exclusively taking prisoners. Gendry for example was never incarcerated. Jaquen could have just approached Yoren and volunteered. When he was jailed he would have had no way of knowing that Yoren was going to take the prisoners from the Black Cells.

This I agree with. It would be easy to just volunteer for the night's watch. But I still find that more believable than getting caught.

The faceless men literally spend days/possibly weeks/possibly months learning their target and environment. 

[Shane snow]

We don't know the he was in the cells.. That person with that face could have been down there and and while on the way to the wall a faceless man could have taken the identity 

[Trigger Warning]

More like his head ended up on the walls of the Red Keep and no one mentions it because he was more or less irrelevant to all the POVs in King's Landing after that. 

[RumHam]

42 minutes ago, tallTale said:

We don't know why Arya is sent to kill the broker. It wasn't a contract that we know. 

It's quite clear that it's a contract taken out by one of the captains who the broker refused to pay. 

Quote

 

“He is writing each a binder. If their ships are lost in a storm or taken by pirates, he promises to pay them for the value of the vessel and all its contents.”
“Is it some kind of wager?”
“Of a sort. A wager every captain hopes to lose.”
“Yes, but if they win …”
“… they lose their ships, oftimes their very lives. The seas are dangerous, and never more so than in autumn. No doubt many a captain sinking in a storm has taken some small solace in his binder back in Braavos, knowing that his widow and children will not want.” A sad smile touched his lips. “It is one thing to write such a binder, though, and another to make good on it.”

Cat understood. One of them must hate him. One of them came to the House of Black and White and prayed for the god to take him. She wondered who it had been, but the kindly man would not tell her. “It is not for you to pry into such matters,” he said. “Who are you?”

“No one.”

 

and what about the Waif's mother? You just ignored that example. As you earlier ignored my suggestion that Jaquen could have been captured while unconscious.

42 minutes ago, tallTale said:

Generally if you go the trouble of hiring a faceless man it's going to be a big deal.

To the person doing the hiring, of course. But keep in mind that the Faceless Men's fee is proportional to the status of and difficulty getting to the target. I'm sure not all of their targets are "important" people. In fact the example we see in Game with Littlefinger saying it would be prohibitively expensive to hire them to kill a dispossessed princess would seem to suggest that such high profile assassinations are rare. I believe the only one we know of is Balon, and they were probably paid with a priceless dragon egg for that one. 

42 minutes ago, tallTale said:

This I agree with. It would be easy to just volunteer for the night's watch. But I still find that more believable than getting caught.

Then I don't know what to tell you. You have a really high opinion of the Faceless Men's abilities. The phrase "nobody's perfect" applies here. 

42 minutes ago, tallTale said:

The faceless men literally spend days/possibly weeks/possibly months learning their target and environment. 

And you think the best plan he could come up with was to get arrested and thrown into the Black Cells where they house the worst of the worst in order to get north? 

Edit: By the way in case anyone hasn't read it, from this website's FAQ:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Is_Syrio_dead/

Quote

 

Syrio’s fate is completely unknown. However, speculation has run between his having been killed, his having been imprisoned, and his having been merely a disguise of a Faceless Man who was thrown into the black cells, changed into Jaqen H’ghar, and is now at large in Westeros. A Feast for Crows appears to put an end to this latter theory, as Jaqen H’ghar was apparently already in the black cells before Syrio’s confrontation with Meryn Trant.

In 2005, GRRM pointed out that Syrio seems to have been left in a hopeless situation when he was last seen, and suggested readers should "draw your own conclusions" based on this (SSM), which seems to imply that Syrio Forel was in fact killed. More recent reports (but, it should be said, unconfirmed) indicate GRRM does not understand why he gets asked the question repeatedly, pointing out that Syrio is not immortal; if accurate, this seems to more heavily imply that Syrio Forel is dead.

 

 

[tallTale]

Quote

and what about the Waif's mother? You just ignored that example. As you earlier ignored my suggestion that Jaquen could have been captured while unconscious.

Those could very well be related to simply Arya still being in training. She's not a full fledged faceless assassin yet.

Quote

To the person doing the hiring, of course. But keep in mind that the Faceless Men's fee is proportional to the status of and difficulty getting to the target. I'm sure not all of their targets are "important" people. In fact the example we see in Game with Littlefinger saying it would be prohibitively expensive to hire them to kill a dispossessed princess would seem to suggest that such high profile assassinations are rare. I believe the only one we know of is Balon, and they were probably paid with a priceless dragon egg for that one. 

Perhaps not all but with a high price tag it would make sense to be a very difficult target. You could hire local assassins for much less. 

Quote

Then I don't know what to tell you. You have a really high opinion of the Faceless Men's abilities. The phrase "nobody's perfect" applies here. 

You're right I do. It's not only me either. Pretty much everyone on Planetos has a very high opinion on the faceless men's abilities. 

Quote

And you think the best plan he could come up with was to get arrested and thrown into the Black Cells where they house the worst of the worst in order to get north? 

No, he certainly does not have to get arrested to get into the dungeon. It's a better idea than simply they caught him because he was unconscious.

Quote

Edit: By the way in case anyone hasn't read it, from this website's FAQ: (Syrio is dead stuff)

You're arguing with the wrong person there. I have said from the beginning of this thread that I don't believe Syrio is Jaquen/ a faceless man.

[RumHam]

12 minutes ago, tallTale said:

Those could very well be related to simply Arya still being in training. She's not a full fledged faceless assassin yet.

I'm not sure what Arya being a trainee has to do with the fact that someone clearly hired the faceless men to kill the broker. Anyway obviously Arya did not kill the Waif's mother. 

12 minutes ago, tallTale said:

Perhaps not all but with a high price tag it would make sense to be a very difficult target. You could hire local assassins for much less. 

You seem to be missing a major aspect of this. Not every contract has a high price tag. It's based on the difficulty of completing the assassination, the status of the target, the risk to the guild, and what the person taking out the contract has to pay with. If one homeless man wanted another dead and offered up his own life to make it happen, the Faceless Men would kill the other homeless man. The point you were arguing was that Jaquen's target had to be someone important. This is clearly untrue. 

12 minutes ago, tallTale said:

You're right I do. It's not only me either. Pretty much everyone on Planetos has a very high opinion on the faceless men's abilities. 

Yeah but I'm sure the people in universe have the sense to know that things can go wrong for anybody. That's just how the world works. The best laid plans of mice and Faceless Men...

12 minutes ago, tallTale said:

No, he certainly does not have to get arrested to get into the dungeon. It's a better idea than simply they caught him because he was unconscious.

I'm not sure in what sense you think that's the better idea. I'm glad you're not writing these books. Anyway I'm not arguing he had to be unconscious. That's not a requirement for me to make sense of the situation, because I understand that Faceless men are not infallible. I was just using it as an example of how he could have been caught without meaning to be caught. 

12 minutes ago, tallTale said:

You're arguing with the wrong person there. I have said from the beginning of this thread that I don't believe Syrio is Jaquen/ a faceless man.

That last part wasn't directed specifically at you. I thought I made that clear when I said "anybody."

[tallTale]

3 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I'm not sure what Arya being a trainee has to do with the fact that someone clearly hired the faceless men to kill the broker. Anyway obviously Arya did not kill the Waif's mother. 

Thanks didn't remember who killed the Waif's mother.

3 minutes ago, RumHam said:

You seem to be missing a major aspect of this. Not every contract has a high price tag. It's based on the difficulty of completing the assassination, the status of the target, the risk to the guild, and what the person taking out the contract has to pay with. If one homeless man wanted another dead and offered up his own life to make it happen, the Faceless Men would kill the other homeless man. 

Fair enough. Perhaps it wasn't someone important. But going to the trouble of hiring a faceless man is no easy task. The probabilities of it happening all the way in KL as opposed to in Braavos would have me believe it would had to have been procured by someone with means. A homeless man simply wouldn't be able to set it up.

Quote

Yeah but I'm sure the people in universe have the sense to know that things can go wrong for anybody. That's just how the world works. The best laid plans of mice and Faceless Men...

Um ok. The Faceless Men have been perfecting their craft of assassination for years. I'm sure they understand the risks and are very good at minimizing them.

Quote

I'm not sure in what sense you think that's the better idea. I'm glad you're not writing these books. Anyway I'm not arguing he had to be unconscious. That's not a requirement for me to make sense of the situation, because I understand that Faceless men are not infallible. I was just using it as an example of how he could have been caught without meaning to be caught.

I've made it pretty clear that I think finding a way of using the night's watch for an exit was probably their intent. Using the dungeons as an exit strategy doesn't seem great but I like that idea better than your thought of them getting caught because they made a mistake. Again, they are very good at understanding their location and the people involved. And by the way, I'm glad I'm not writing them either! Martin does a much better job.

Quote

That last part wasn't directed specifically at you. I thought I made that clear when I said "anybody."

You added it at the bottom of a long rant specifically targeted at me. You'll have to forgive me if I thought it was also a disagreement with something I said.

 

[RumHam]

4 minutes ago, tallTale said:

You added it at the bottom of a long rant specifically targeted at me. You'll have to forgive me if I thought it was also a disagreement with something I said.

I understand, I guess I should have put it in another post rather than editing it in. I just wanted to succinctly summarize the arguments against some of the stuff being argued in this thread. 

I apologize if I've been a bit...testy. Between the flat-earth truthers, Trump supporters, and people who are still convinced Planned Parenthood sells baby parts I don't have a lot of patience left for this sorta stuff left. I'll go now. 

[mmenolas]

45 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Between the flat-earth truthers, Trump supporters, and people who are still convinced Planned Parenthood sells baby parts I don't have a lot of patience left for this sorta stuff left. I'll go now. 

This is a perfect analog to most of these theories conspiracies on this forum.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I literally can't believe flat-earth truthers are a thing in 2016. 

But I've gotta admit I've always been low key stanning for this crackpot, and my tinfoil hat-wearing alter ego kind of thinks Meryn/Syrio is the one slowly poisoning Tommen - and Boros Blount in the process. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

1 minute ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I literally can't believe flat-earth truthers are a thing in 2016. 

But I've gotta admit I've always been low key stanning for this crackpot, and my tinfoil hat-wearing alter ego kind of thinks Meryn/Syrio is the one slowly poisoning Tommen - and Boros Blount in the process. 

Starting when Cersei refused payment to the Iron Bank?  I wonder when the first mention of Blount looking ill is.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Just now, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Starting when Cersei refused payment to the Iron Bank?  I wonder when the first mention of Blount looking ill is.

I seem to remember Tommen looked thinner at the beginning of Feast, but I think that's it.

[Dorian Martell]

5 hours ago, Zirex said:

Well, if Syrio isn't connected to the Faceless Men, then why doesn't the Kindly Man trouble himself with teaching Arya some ninja skills? You know, she is going to be an assassin, and if changing your face and becoming a master liar is what it takes to be a faceless man, then why didn't Jaqen choose Hot Pie as an apprentice?

I was always disappointed by the training Arya got through in the house of black and white. I was expecting some training we see fighting trainings between the apprentice girl and her master, but then I realized that the assassins have already given her her first lessons.

The faceless men are not ninjas. They achieve their goals by disguise, subterfuge and quiet. Look at how arya killed the broker with the coin. she wasn't flying through the tavern throwing metal stars in people's eyes. She was quiet, and she can always go back to the tavern. 
You also seem to be confused about the books in general. Jaqen didn't take Arya as an apprentice. That was the show. Jaqen saw something in Arya, so he gave her the coin. He did not see the same in Mr. Pie. 

[Zirex]

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

The faceless men are not ninjas. They achieve their goals by disguise, subterfuge and quiet. Look at how arya killed the broker with the coin. she wasn't flying through the tavern throwing metal stars in people's eyes. She was quiet, and she can always go back to the tavern. 
You also seem to be confused about the books in general. Jaqen didn't take Arya as an apprentice. That was the show. Jaqen saw something in Arya, so he gave her the coin. He did not see the same in Mr. Pie. 

I said apprentice in general. I'm not confusing. And I know they are not ninjas, but still they use the skills. We saw it when Jaqen killed the men to save Boltons in Harrenhal

[Dorian Martell]

5 minutes ago, Zirex said:

I said apprentice in general. I'm not confusing. And I know they are not ninjas, but still they use the skills. We saw it when Jaqen killed the men to save Boltons in Harrenhal

Jaqen is a grown man. Arya is an 11 year old girl. she has years until she is big enough to be effective in combat. 

[Neds Secret]

15 hours ago, Zirex said:

As I pointed out abve, in the house of black and white, the kindly man hardly shows her how to fight or assassinate or use any skills Jaqen H'gar used during his assassinations and fights in Harrenhal. How could the kindly man be sure that Arya will meet someone who will teach her using the hidden blades?

After Jaqen invites Arya to Bravoos, we initially think that it is because he sees her fighting skills and decides she must be an assassin. But that doesn't make sense, because there are children with master skills in the world. If you remember, Jaqen uses his skinchanging to kill a guy, so that the dog would take the blame. So I think the faceless men searched for Arya, because she is a powerfull warg. Syrio Forel was there to teach the first lessons as a fighter.

Then Jaqen appears (I think it was a coincidence that they met, because Jaqen was going to Castle Black, probably searching for another powerful warg).

And how is it possible that all the faceless men connect with each other? How the hell could Jaqen know Arya's name, past and every damnthing about her? I think they are connecting with each other the same way the starks do as direwolves. Syrio, Jaqen, the kibdly man, all of them send the information to each other in that 'dream' world.

 

There is quite a bit of sense in the above!

[Hodor's Aunt]

17 hours ago, Zirex said:

He agreed to go when Ned decided to send girls back to Winterfell. I mean if he was working as a teacher just for money, why trouble himself going to such a cold and deserted place? It is impossible that he lacked for students with money in Bravoos or other free cities.

1. You don't refuse the king's hand easily.

2. Maybe he had good reason to leave Essos for Westeros. Maybe he trained one of the banker's wifes more than the art of swordplay. Heck - there's 100 good reasons why he would be in Westeros.