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Syrio took Meryn's face?


Zirex

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14 hours ago, RumHam said:

Edit: By the way in case anyone hasn't read it, from this website's FAQ:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Is_Syrio_dead/

 

Hahaha I love the implication that this resolves anything... I mean of course Syrio is dead. So is Jaquen, haven't you been paying attention?

 
Quote

 

"Do the dead frighten you?" Ser Waymar Royce asked with just the hint of a smile.
Gared did not rise to the bait. He was an old man, past fifty, and he had seen the lordlings come and go. "Dead is dead," he said. "We have no business with the dead."
"Are they dead?" Royce asked softly. "What proof have we?"

 

Oh wait sorry, I just like that quote... But I meant this one...
 
Quote

 

"The debt is paid," Arya agreed reluctantly. She felt a little sad. Now she was just a mouse again.
"A god has his due. And now a man must die." A strange smile touched the lips of Jaqen H'ghar.
"Die?" she said, confused. What did he mean? "But I unsaid the name. You don't need to die now."
"I do. My time is done." Jaqen passed a hand down his face from forehead to chin, and where it went he changed. His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.
Arya's mouth hung open. "Who are you?" she whispered, too astonished to be afraid. "How did you do that? Was it hard?"

 

 
So yes, Syrio is just as dead as Jaqen... Since they were just faces anyway... 
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6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Hahaha I love the implication that this resolves anything... I mean of course Syrio is dead. So is Jaquen, haven't you been paying attention?

 
Oh wait sorry, I just like that quote... But I meant this one...
 
 
So yes, Syrio is just as dead as Jaqen... Since they were just faces anyway... 

I can't believe I'm nibbling again, but here goes..

Yes, Syrio and Jaqen are now both dead.. Syrio (the real First Sword) was already dead when we met him... Jaqen (the dangerous criminal) died at the time of the fire at the holdfast (IMO)..
But the faceless man who wore both those faces is alive and in Oldtown as Pate. 

As a hired assassin, a FM is supposed to kill the target and only the target.. but when assigned as a secret agent acting in the interests of Braavos, he can kill at need, to carry out his mission. .. this is demonstrated in the Weasel Soup adventure, The Alchemist taking Pate's face, and again in the Mercy chapter..

 

Spoiler

To me, Arya (Mercy), in the midst of her apprenticeship, seems to have been seconded into an act of political espionage. The whole scenario of taking Swyft to the theatre was arranged because she was already in an advantageous position. Her mission then became to fake her own death at the hands of one of Swyft's retinue, causing a diplomatic scandal ... but she had a free hand in choosing how to do it, and who to use as a patsy.. (the gods gave her a gift).  

 

Our FM's assignment in KL was never to assassinate anyone, but to get as close as possible to the new Hand, to observe and assess his politics, what power he had, and how that might affect the status quo in Westeros - and thus relations with Braavos. (The Starks were becoming politically prominent again, after 14 yrs. in retirement.) This mission allowed for entering Ned's service and accompanying him to Winterfell, .. if necessary, and at the FM's discretion. When Ned was imprisoned and killed, that was not necessarily the end of Stark power, because Robb was already entering the fray. (But not Frey, excuse the pun.)

So, it would be in Braavosi interests to follow Arya, and help her (without drawing attention)., since her brother might be on his way to taking the crown. (it worked for Robert, not long ago.) 

When Jaqen changes his face in front of Arya and gives her the coin, Robb had already been acclaimed as King in the North, and appeared to be winning...  The FM doesn't know if she'll ever use the coin (he may, in fact, doubt it) .. but .. he has good reason to think she will shortly be reunited with Robb. He has to be fully aware that if she told Robb her story and showed him the coin, Robb and his advisors would be able to put together that she had been aided by a FM, signalling  that at least some of the powers that be in Braavos were open to friendly relations and probably inspiring some gratitude in Robb.

I think Braavos is interested in Starks, but don't think there was initially a serious attempt to recruit Arya.

I do think the FM was developing some sincere fondness for her (e.g., kissing her hair ..very tender). The FM are still human after all, and I think that there must have been some, along the way, who had to wrestle with their human thoughts and feelings vs the strictures of their order .. exactly as we see with Jaime and Jon and their respective oaths.

ETA: So, no, I don't think he took Trant's face. If he escaped from Trant (and I think he certainly could) he could have become anyone, or a series of anyones, via glamours. I don't see how becoming Trant would tie in to an original mission that seems to have been to do with Ned. If the mission was killing (or spying on) Lannisters, becoming Syrio would have been a poor choice in the first place.

Whatever his mission, becoming a prisoner in the Black Cells (IMO) is about the most counter-productive method I can think of.

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I think you're simplifying too much. The FM are not Murder Inc., they're a religion, and they probably are involved in politics.

There are hints they've something to do with Varys, who might be who recommended Syrio to Ned, for whatever reasons. Grrm has decided not to be very clear on this topic.

Trant is a KG, he's meant to have honour. He doesn't show, but is meant to. Syrio is not a common man and if he yields, Trant should not kill him unarmed, but throw him to the dungeons. Or he just wouldn't care.

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2 hours ago, finger said:

I think you're simplifying too much. The FM are not Murder Inc., they're a religion, and they probably are involved in politics.

There are hints they've something to do with Varys, who might be who recommended Syrio to Ned, for whatever reasons. Grrm has decided not to be very clear on this topic.

Trant is a KG, he's meant to have honour. He doesn't show, but is meant to. Syrio is not a common man and if he yields, Trant should not kill him unarmed, but throw him to the dungeons. Or he just wouldn't care.

Was this directed to me ? ( .. because I've never been accused of over simplifying, before.. ;) ..it's usually the opposite... )

I would be the last person to suggest the FM are Murder, Inc. and I absolutely believe they're involved in politics .. internally, and on behalf of Braavosi interests, abroad. Beacause of their history and the vulnerability of their state while it was being established, a good spy network would have been a great asset, and they just happened to have excellent ready-made agents in the FM.(And for that matter, I doubt they could have co-ordinated the take-over of a whole convoy of slave ships without FM participation)

The Sealord is the nominal Head of State , but I think there's really a tripartite power structure .. Sealord - Iron Bank - House of Black and White.

The HoB&W is certainly founded on religious belief, but they don't operate like any normal religion. They don't hold communal services (not even for the few acolytes on their premises). They don't open new temples, try to convert the masses or expand, as a religion, beyond the borders of Braavos. 

I'm not convinced that Varys is connected to the HoB&W.. that's just a "m-m-m-maybe", for me...But I'm quite interested in Tobho Mott, with his sapphire the size of a pigeons egg, black and white doors, small polite serving girl, and large premises as another maybe.. and m-m-m-maybe a rendezvous spot for passing FM... :unsure:

And I think that GRRM salted enough hints and clues into the text to suggest that Syrio's options were not limited to Death or Yield.

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No offence meant. I wasn't addressing anyone in particular, just the general tune, like: They're assassines, they're hired, they murder, period. There's much more than that.

The rest are hints squandered here and there. If Varys took Gendry to Tobho Mott, why him, with those braavosi memories? Then Varys in disguise so often,...does he have anything to do with the FM? Is Mott their agent? You're right, this leaves you guessing, but it's nothing tangible. We'll know some more after the coming book, I hope.

I can't see what you mean with Syrio's options, but I think yielding is convenient for the progression of the story. A KG, even Trant, can behave honourably and it puts Syrio in the dungeons, so that he can "become" Jaqen.

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finger..  No offense taken. I really wasn't sure if you meant to address me or were making general comments.

I'm anticipating more information on Braavos, too.. There are now so many characters who could potentially be illuminating, I'm sure we must learn more in TWoW. But for now, weighing against 
Varys and/or Illyrio having any official ties to Braavos (for me) is the matter of acquiring the "little birds"... It seems very far removed from Braavosi ethics. Varys seems to only use mummer disguises... Even if he delivered Gendry to Tobho, we don't know if it was his idea... etc., etc..

We now have Tycho and of course Arya...  

I can't believe that now that Phario Forel has been mentioned, Arya would not want to meet him .. or perhaps she has already.. we don't know if the Mercy chapter is her first chapter in Winds

As for Syrio.. I think enough groundwork has been laid by GRRM to think he could have escaped. I won't detail all of that here, just a few items... Trant had already ordered the guardsmen to “Kill the Braavosi and bring me the girl,” . After Syrio had left the guards "dead or dying", I think Trant would absolutely have killed him if he could.  Obviously, anyone connected to the Stark household is to be done away with, and Trant has never been one to take the initiative. He does what he's told (if he has to), nothing more.

Some time elapsed between Arya running from the room and her arrival at the stables, but not a lot .. yet the stableboy knew he should be on the lookout for Arya, and to take her to Cersei for a reward. ("There she is" .... "It’s the queen who’ll be rewarding me. Come here, girl.”) This would not have been told to someone as lowly as a stableboy before the surprise move against Ned (someone always talks). I don't see how he can know, unless Trant went immediately to tell Cersei that Arya had escaped.

So, I think it would be out of character for Trant to bother to arrest Syrio and definitely out of character for Cersei to merely have him thrown in a cell, without having him tortured to see if he knew where Arya could be.. even after torture, he would be killed. Cersei was leaving no witnesses.

The other standout (for me) comes when Arya has collected her things but is frightened and somewhat panicky, unable to move... Calm as still water, a small voice whispered in her ear. Arya was so startled she almost dropped her bundle. She looked around wildly, but there was no one in the stable but her, and the horses, and the dead men. 

She had already been repeating Syrio's instructions to herself, in thoughts and whispers , as she escaped. I don't believe a voice from within could startle her so that she almost dropped her things. It might make you pause, catch your breath, give you goosebumps ..but not physically startle in that way. Consequently, I feel much more inclined to think that whisper came from without, not within.

Among the dead men in the stable was one lone Lannister guard , like the ones who had been with Meryn. A Lannister guard could take a quicker, more direct route to the stables than Arya did.. But I mention this as just one possibility..

I don't think Syrio would expect to be arrested if he yielded ... not after hearing Trant order his death, and if he was a FM, a disguise that meant he'd be kept manacled in a cage, would not be one he'd adopt willingly, when he could become any random poacher or thief. (Which is what I think he did)

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10 hours ago, finger said:

No offence meant. I wasn't addressing anyone in particular, just the general tune, like: They're assassines, they're hired, they murder, period. There's much more than that.

The rest are hints squandered here and there. If Varys took Gendry to Tobho Mott, why him, with those braavosi memories? Then Varys in disguise so often,...does he have anything to do with the FM? Is Mott their agent? You're right, this leaves you guessing, but it's nothing tangible. We'll know some more after the coming book, I hope.

I can't see what you mean with Syrio's options, but I think yielding is convenient for the progression of the story. A KG, even Trant, can behave honourably and it puts Syrio in the dungeons, so that he can "become" Jaqen.

I can't agree that Syrio would have surrendered, and even less so that Trant would have taken him prisoner if he had. Syrio was goading Trant ("you are slow for a knight") and irritating him with swats to the helmet with the lead-weighted stick. The kind of man who would beat a teenaged girl wouldn't hesitate to kill someone who treated him that way. Syrio either died or escaped. My personal opinion is that Syrio did the aquatic boogaloo all around Trant, avoiding Trant's wild swings of the sword until he was exhausted, and then grabbed a cloak and helm from a dead Lannister guardsman so he could blend in with the others and left the area.  

That or his head's on a spike next to Septa Mordane's.

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41 minutes ago, Sparklehorse said:

Unsure if this was a reply to my post, but Meryn Trant did beat Sansa in A Game Of Thrones when Joffrey made her look at her father's head. 

And Arya would not let a dwarf rape her. If we are talking about the faceless men, then Syrio Forel was probably his hundredth personality. You don't seem to get the point.

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1 hour ago, Zirex said:

And Arya would not let a dwarf rape her. If we are talking about the faceless men, then Syrio Forel was probably his hundredth personality. You don't seem to get the point.

Arya wasn't raped???? It was a play????

If a faceless man is up to their hundredth personality, there goal and job would not be a dancing master. It's extremely expensive to get a faceless man to do something for you, there needs to be a motive.

Faceless Men are extremely skilled at there craft. If we are going by the logic that Syrio was a faceless man, there would be no need to be a dancing master for Arya. He could have gone and straight out killed Trant. Faceless Men put alot of emphasis on focusing on your target.. Training Arya in the basics would be seen as a distraction.

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1 hour ago, Sparklehorse said:

Arya wasn't raped???? It was a play????

If a faceless man is up to their hundredth personality, there goal and job would not be a dancing master. It's extremely expensive to get a faceless man to do something for you, there needs to be a motive.

Faceless Men are extremely skilled at there craft. If we are going by the logic that Syrio was a faceless man, there would be no need to be a dancing master for Arya. He could have gone and straight out killed Trant. Faceless Men put alot of emphasis on focusing on your target.. Training Arya in the basics would be seen as a distraction.

I know it was a play, but I meant it was something that Arya wouldn't do.

And Syrio didn't come to King's Landing to kill Trant anyway. His mission was to train Arya, he could never know that pig would kill Robert and Ned would be imprisoned. But he was actually a faceless assassin, then he used the opportunity in the turning of events and followed the politics of Westeros as a high ranked Kingsguard.

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Well, never forget that this is a novel, and Syrio Forel is just where Grrm wants him to be. That stated, a good novel must follow a logic, so that we're given clues to guess what might have happened.

Clue. Sir Varis vs Bronn. A skilled knight heavily armored against a sellsword who looked almost "naked" whit some hauberk, and the like. Bronn killed the knight, but he had a sharp sword. Syrio didn't kill Trant, obviously but, did Trant kill him? Trant wasn't an excellent knight, no reason to believe he was better than the other.  Otoh, Syrio boasted to be the first sword of Braavos, and even if he was a FM, he should be well trained. He could have escaped, or he could have "played" (rather danced) with Trant until he accepted a yield. If he could lead him to talk while fighting, Trant would be exhausted sooner. He might have "shit for honour", as some others, but if he'd given his word, he'd be expected to hold it. The point is that the outcome must be credible and suitable. This is fiction!

Clue. Parallels between Syrio and Jaqen. Please spare me the account.

Clue. Arya's training. It starts with Syrio and it follows through similar methods till the very sample of the sixth book. That must mean something!

A good question has been raised: how comes a talented Braavosi sword ends up as a girl's dancing teacher? And I'd remark that this same girl is sent to Braavos by "some other friend" she finds in her way. IIRC, Illyrio was a bravo himself, even though he moved to Pentos.

A suitable explanation is that Varys has some kind of connection with the FM. He obviously sees the Lannisters as his foes, and he's gathering other Lannister's foes, Viserys, Daenerys, fAegon,... The Starks could be an ally. It might have started with an interest in getting an agent into Stark household, and then spotting Arya as a fine recruit. (Btw, I feel she'll be the valonqar who'll kill Cersei.)

Lastly, that reluctance from Grrm. If Syrio is dead, why deny it?

Edit. Grrm has decided not to be clear, and to cover this story with a veil of mystery. Well, I like to play the game. We must wait until the next book.

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39 minutes ago, Zirex said:

I know it was a play, but I meant it was something that Arya wouldn't do.

And Syrio didn't come to King's Landing to kill Trant anyway. His mission was to train Arya, he could never know that pig would kill Robert and Ned would be imprisoned. But he was actually a faceless assassin, then he used the opportunity in the turning of events and followed the politics of Westeros as a high ranked Kingsguard.

Meryn Trant was part of Roberts Kingsguard. So why does Arya need to be trained? Why wait a bit until you kill your target? Isn't the target the point? Weren't the faceless men reluctant to include Arya in AFFC? (so that kind of blows up the theory that they wanted her there). Why kill Meryn, not Jaime or Barristan who have a higher reputation? If 'Meryn' is a faceless man, why hasn't he done anything yet?

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41 minutes ago, finger said:

Well, never forget that this is a novel, and Syrio Forel is just where Grrm wants him to be. That stated, a good novel must follow a logic, so that we're given clues to guess what might have happened.

Clue. Sir Varis vs Bronn. A skilled knight heavily armored against a sellsword who looked almost "naked" whit some hauberk, and the like. Bronn killed the knight, but he had a sharp sword. Syrio didn't kill Trant, obviously but, did Trant kill him? Trant wasn't an excellent knight, no reason to believe he was better than the other.  Otoh, Syrio boasted to be the first sword of Braavos, and even if he was a FM, he should be well trained. He could have escaped, or he could have "played" (rather danced) with Trant until he accepted a yield. If he could lead him to talk while fighting, Trant would be exhausted sooner. He might have "shit for honour", as some others, but if he'd given his word, he'd be expected to hold it. The point is that the outcome must be credible and suitable. This is fiction!

Clue. Parallels between Syrio and Jaqen. Please spare me the account.

Clue. Arya's training. It starts with Syrio and it follows through similar methods till the very sample of the sixth book. That must mean something!

A good question has been raised: how comes a talented Braavosi sword ends up as a girl's dancing teacher? And I'd remark that this same girl is sent to Braavos by "some other friend" she finds in her way. IIRC, Illyrio was a bravo himself, even though he moved to Pentos.

A suitable explanation is that Varys has some kind of connection with the FM. He obviously sees the Lannisters as his foes, and he's gathering other Lannister's foes, Viserys, Daenerys, fAegon,... The Starks could be an ally. It might have started with an interest in getting an agent into Stark household, and then spotting Arya as a fine recruit. (Btw, I feel she'll be the valonqar who'll kill Cersei.)

Lastly, that reluctance from Grrm. If Syrio is dead, why deny it?

Edit. Grrm has decided not to be clear, and to cover this story with a veil of mystery. Well, I like to play the game. We must wait until the next book.

I think Littlefinger is closer to FM than Varys, because when the small counsil suggested FM to kill Dany, Littlefinger pointed out that they can never pay the price the FM would want for her assassination. I like how he said that they can build an army with the money needed to kill just a merchant, never mind a princess. Something tells me he has tried to make a deal with the FM to assassinate Illyrio Mopatis, but failed.

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