Syrio took Meryn's face?

[Zirex]

9 minutes ago, Sparklehorse said:

Meryn Trant was part of Roberts Kingsguard. So why does Arya need to be trained? Why wait a bit until you kill your target? Isn't the target the point? Weren't the faceless men reluctant to include Arya in AFFC? (so that kind of blows up the theory that they wanted her there). Why kill Meryn, not Jaime or Barristan who have a higher reputation? If 'Meryn' is a faceless man, why hasn't he done anything yet?

I think it is possible that the Faceless Men aren't just assassin, but they also act as spy to learn or get something important and valuable. We can see that in Jaqen's actions 

[Sparklehorse]

Just now, Zirex said:

I think it is possible that the Faceless Men aren't just assassin, but they also act as spy to learn or get something important and valuable. We can see that in Jaqen's actions 

Ah okay. I think we'll have to agree to disagree, because we don't know alot about the faceless men, all we are left with are material for our theories. So different interpretations are going to happen, and thats okay. 

[Clegane'sPup]

Eddard when having a heart to heart talk with Arya, chapter 22 AGoT, describes Needle as a bravo’s blade. Eddard decides to find someone who can teach Arya how to use this blade and on the 4^th day after that talk a dance instructor shows up.  A secret shared between Eddard & Arya. The people around them think Arya is learning dance while, Arya is actually learning sword fighting.  The question in my mind is how Eddard found this “dance instructor.” Whoever he spoke to would need to know that Eddard wanted someone to teach his daughter how to use the blade.  This is important because when Trant is sent to get Arya in chapter 50, Trant thinks Syrio is a dance instructor and later Cersei in ACoK says, “I sent Meryn Trant to take her in hand when Robert died, but her wretched dancing master interfered and the girl fled.”

That does not confirm Syrio’s death, but Syrio does say, “The first sword of Braavos does not run, he sang as Ser Meryn slashed at him.”

I don’t think Syrio survived the fight. Trant is still walking around. I think Syrio is who he said he was.

How to weave the FM, the HoBaW, and the Iron Bank together is thought provoking.

[tallTale]

A side note to the Jaqen H'ghar mystery is Biter and Rorge. What's their deal? Why are they Jaquen's henchmen? They don't seem like faceless men because they continue on as themselves  while Jaqen goes on to finish his other appointments.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

3 minutes ago, tallTale said:

A side note to the Jaqen H'ghar mystery is Biter and Rorge. What's their deal? Why are they Jaquen's henchmen? They don't seem like faceless men because they continue on as themselves  while Jaqen goes on to finish his other appointments.

I think the point here is that no matter how sweetly he speaks, Jaqen was also intimidating enough to put the fear of God in rorge and biter...

 

[Clegane'sPup]

2 minutes ago, tallTale said:

A side note to the Jaqen H'ghar mystery is Biter and Rorge. What's their deal? Why are they Jaquen's henchmen? They don't seem like faceless men because they continue on as themselves  while Jaqen goes on to finish his other appointments.

I have asked the question about why Rorge and Biter would help with Jaqen's soup plan. It was Jaqen's plan, not Arya's.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

18 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Eddard when having a heart to heart talk with Arya, chapter 22 AGoT, describes Needle as a bravo’s blade. Eddard decides to find someone who can teach Arya how to use this blade and on the 4^th day after that talk a dance instructor shows up.  A secret shared between Eddard & Arya. The people around them think Arya is learning dance while, Arya is actually learning sword fighting.  The question in my mind is how Eddard found this “dance instructor.” Whoever he spoke to would need to know that Eddard wanted someone to teach his daughter how to use the blade.  This is important because when Trant is sent to get Arya in chapter 50, Trant thinks Syrio is a dance instructor and later Cersei in ACoK says, “I sent Meryn Trant to take her in hand when Robert died, but her wretched dancing master interfered and the girl fled.”

That does not confirm Syrio’s death, but Syrio does say, “The first sword of Braavos does not run, he sang as Ser Meryn slashed at him.”

I don’t think Syrio survived the fight. Trant is still walking around. I think Syrio is who he said he was.

How to weave the FM, the HoBaW, and the Iron Bank together is thought provoking.

There is also the possibility that "Syrio" was just a face and much like how Arya sees Jaqen "die", the first sword died there... But in both cases the faceless man, presumably a "no-one", continues on to whatever mission he has next.

As far as the plot goes, the only way I see it ever really mattering, as opposed to an interesting possibility to ponder, will be if the Faceless man was there to kill Ned... And thus took the face of Syrio.

This might be relevant to Arya's future loyalties, especially if Varys was involved as seems likely to me

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

There is also the possibility that "Syrio" was just a face and much like how Arya sees Jaqen "die", the first sword died there... But in both cases he faceless man, presumably "no-one" continues on to whatever mission he has next.

<snip>

Sorry, but I think Syrio is Syrio. No FM. As to the Jaqen character, I think I understand what you are inferring when using "die" but Jaqen seems to have used a glamour when he changed his face in from of her. I would have to browse back into the books. I seem to remember something about the KM telling Arya about the different ways they disguise themselves.

[bemused]

9 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Sorry, but I think Syrio is Syrio. No FM. As to the Jaqen character, I think I understand what you are inferring when using "die" but Jaqen seems to have used a glamour when he changed his face in from of her. I would have to browse back into the books. I seem to remember something about the KL telling Arya about the different ways they disguise themselves.

Syrio is Syrio is a possibility.. but..

Arya is told by the KM that she will learn to use mummer disguises, and create glamours, as well as the FM "mask" face change.. You seem to imply that the "Alchemist" face was a glamour, but many think that was his real face and "Jaqen" was a glamour .. if "Jaqen" was, "Syrio" might have been a glamour as well ..or, Syrio, Jaqen, Pate and the Alchemist might all be glamours.

If Syrio is a FM , I think he must be wearing a glamour because of the short amount of time elapsed between Ned's talk with Arya and Syrio's appearance. (No time to send word to Braavos that Ned wants to hire a Braavosi sword master). But if a FM spy was already in KL, and looking for a way to get close enough to observe Ned, this would be a good opportunity. (Dead Syrio would still have been a well-known figure in Braavos, and the FM might even have worn his "mask" in the past.) He would not have had to know who the fencing master was for until he met Ned. It could have been quite a surprise to learn that his pupil would be Ned's daughter. 

Ned's a busy man, and important enough that his movements would be watched. Obviously, I don't think he'd ask any members of the small council, who are all spying on each other... He would trust Jory to ask around for him, but he wouldn't want him scouring flea bottom for any stray bravos.  One of the best sources of information would be local armourers, and this line of general inquiry would probably lead to Tobho Mott. (Why not start at the establishment with the most expertise in weapons from Essos .. the sort of place reputable Braavosi- style fencing masters are likely to frequent?). When Ned visits Tobho's shop, he'd never been there before, but Jory, or another of his men might have. Syrio's high recommendation might have come from Tobho. There are hints that Tobho might have some association with the HoB&W, so the dots might possibly connect in that way.

"The first sword of Braavos does not run" doesn't carry much weight with me, because just before Trant entered the scene, Syrio was demonstrating to Arya (by lying to her) how an opponent could lie with his voice , but the truth was more likely to be found in his eyes.

And if Syrio is wearing a glamour, we can find something of a parallel much later ... in Jon's sparring match with Mance glamoured as Rattleshirt. In that case, Mance might actually be the better swordsman , but Jon is no slouch. There's no doubt that Jon is put off his game because he's actually fighting a bigger, heavier, more agile man than he thinks he is. "Rattleshirt" is quicker than he should be... he's also stronger than he should be, has greater reach, more weight behind his blows than he ought to have, etc.

This contest does serve some purpose in Jon's story arc, but it's extra detail, not really necessary. Mance had already given Jon very strong verbal clues to his identity, just before Stannis left. Jon doesn't "get it" on either occasion and Mance is revealed to Jon just a couple of chapters forward, in Mel's chapter (along with an explanation of how glamours work).

If GRRM wanted another example of Mance trying to clue Jon in, it didn't need to come in the form of a fight. The scene might well be intended to cast light back on another fight where one combatant could potentially be glamoured ..and cause the reader to reconsider whether Syrio's plight was really that hopeless.

9 hours ago, tallTale said:

A side note to the Jaqen H'ghar mystery is Biter and Rorge. What's their deal? Why are they Jaquen's henchmen? They don't seem like faceless men because they continue on as themselves  while Jaqen goes on to finish his other appointments.

Rorge and Biter were never Jaqen's henchmen. GRRM has given them a back story together that doesn't include Jaqen. It seems Jaqen wasn't in the black cells with them.. he was just there at the same time as them.

9 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I think the point here is that no matter how sweetly he speaks, Jaqen was also intimidating enough to put the fear of God in rorge and biter...

Yes, but they weren't intimidated when they were on the road in the cage together. He set himself apart from them, and they didn't play along with him when he was trying to charm Arya - quite the opposite. The most common speculation I've seen is that they somehow witnessed him changing his face. if so, when ? They don't show the least hint of fear of him until Harrenhall. So, whatever put the fear in them happened after Arya escaped down the tunnel, and before they got to Harrenhall. (My own view is that Jaqen the criminal died at the fire .. and then the FM adopted his persona.) It would scare you if some guy you saw dead or dying suddenly turned up,hale, hearty and with no burns. (especially if it was you, Rorge, who caught the axe , but didn't stop to chop him free..).. and he probably could threaten you into helping him in the soup adventure.

[Ninerings]

I would just like to point out that the supposed "ninja" in real life weren't dudes in black outfits climbing ropes and throwing stars. Their primary job was espionage and sabotage. They were exactly what some on here are saying the HoBaW are. Hide in plain sight, work for the highest bidder (except when your own home and community are threatened), and gather intelligence. Assassination very rarely occurred. In doing so, they learned all of the tricks that Varys uses so well. This alone is why I hold him as a possibility to be connected or at least akin to the FM. Networks of "spies" or "little birds" were tools of the true so-called "ninja" craft. Grappling hooks and "hi-ya" Myagi stuff are the things of movies.

Point being, I don't find it so far from the truth that the FM can be in a political game as well.

[tallTale]

On 1/28/2016 at 4:30 PM, FuzzyJAM said:

We literally saw Jaqen almost die as a common prisoner to a simple fire.

Something want to point out about that scene.

Arya makes a point that jaqen didn't seem concerned as the fire raged around him, but when arya named him as someone to die then he was. It's possible that he knew how to get out, but wanted to see if Arya would help him. Not sure if it's something but I noticed it in a reread.

[FuzzyJAM]

2 hours ago, tallTale said:

Something want to point out about that scene.

Arya makes a point that jaqen didn't seem concerned as the fire raged around him, but when arya named him as someone to die then he was. It's possible that he knew how to get out, but wanted to see if Arya would help him. Not sure if it's something but I noticed it in a reread.

I did note earlier that it's possible that the event was a test for Arya.

But if that's the case, why would Jaqen say Arya took three from the Red God?  Surely it's only two, i.e. Biter and Rorge but not Jaqen?  Unless that was a lie as well - and Jaqen giving her three kills was just another test for which the fire was an excuse he cryptically gave.  But really. . .that's making the rabbit hole rather deeper than it need be.

I do think Jaqen's actions are a little at odds with what Arya is taught at the House.  I don't know if that's accidental or intentional inconsistency.  I do think that any attempt to make the inconsistencies work into a theory will necessarily be wildly speculative, however.  

[Clegane'sPup]

12 hours ago, bemused said:

Syrio is Syrio is a possibility.. but..

Arya is told by the KM that she will learn to use mummer disguises, and create glamours, as well as the FM "mask" face change.. You seem to imply that the "Alchemist" face was a glamour, but many think that was his real face and "Jaqen" was a glamour .. if "Jaqen" was, "Syrio" might have been a glamour as well ..or, Syrio, Jaqen, Pate and the Alchemist might all be glamours.

<snip>

I did not imply anything about the “Alchemist” who turns up in Oldtown wearing the face that Arya last saw Jaqen wear.

I said Jaqen used a glamour when he changed his face in front of Arya. The specific instance I was speaking about was when Jaqen left Arya with the coin. The persona of Jaqen dies.

A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

"Die?" she said, confused. What did he mean? "But I unsaid the name. You don't need to die now."

"I do. My time is done." Jaqen passed a hand down his face from forehead to chin, and where it went he changed. His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.

Arya's mouth hung open. "Who are you?" she whispered, too astonished to be afraid. "How did you do that? Was it hard?"

My posts were geared to the question of whether or not Syrio took Trants face. My opinion is No. Syrio is Syrio, who he told Arya he was.  Yes, I would agree that most likely Eddard sent Jory out looking for the dancing instructor. Jory probably got Syrio’s name from Mott and I do think that there is connection between Mott’s place and the HoBaW. I did not feel the need to add that information to my post because it is my stance is that Syrio is who he told Arya he was.

If the Jaqen in the cage was a glamour it is okay with me. If after Jaqen excaped the cage and a FM in Yoren’s party took Jaqen’s guise it is okay with me. I do not however think Syrio is or was a FM.

I think Syrio was put in place by the author to teach Arya how to defend herself. That also could be the reasoning behind Eddard's decision to allow Arya to learn to fight, so she could defend herself. I'm just speculating on that last bit.

Oy vey, this FM stuff can get very confusing for me. I do enjoy the topic though.

[aryagonnakill#2]

1 of the biggest problems with Syrio being a glamour or deadface on a faceless man is that there is no 1 with a strong enough reason to pay the price to kill him.  Think of how high the price would be.  The price to kill the woman who poisoned the waif was half of a lords wealth and his daughters life service to the house of black and white.  Ned is far better protected and a more valuable target.

While it has been suggested that LF did the highering, I just do not see how he could have paid for it.  LF cares for naught but power and himself, money is only a means for him and he has continued to spend money lavishly throughout the books.  If LF was able to pay only in coin, he should have had to give every penny he had, and I still don't see how that would be enough.

[Valyrian Blade]

For me personally it seems his target was Eddard Stark but he was late and decided to take a free ride north while he waited for a chance to escape. Pure speculation.

[StarkofWinterfell]

On January 31, 2016 at 3:40 AM, Zirex said:

You mean Arya unknowingly killed Syrio? LOL 

That would be hilarious if it actually happened in the book.

And so the apprentice surpassed the master!

[tallTale]

Quote

But if that's the case, why would Jaqen say Arya took three from the Red God?  Surely it's only two, i.e. Biter and Rorge but not Jaqen?  Unless that was a lie as well - and Jaqen giving her three kills was just another test for which the fire was an excuse he cryptically gave.  But really. . .that's making the rabbit hole rather deeper than it need be.

Excellent point. Why is Arya owed three lives? Jaqen shouldn't care about Rorge and Biter's life, but somehow they are important enough to be worth killing for. Unless it's a lesson or oversight as you said. Maybe Jaqen owes them a debt by keeping his identity a secret in the black cells.

[bemused]

5 hours ago, tallTale said:

Something want to point out about that scene.

1) Arya makes a point that jaqen didn't seem concerned as the fire raged around him, but when arya named him as someone to die then he was. 2)  It's possible that he knew how to get out, but wanted to see if Arya would help him. Not sure if it's something but I noticed it in a reread.

I've numbered the points I want to address ... 

1) Arya doesn't make the point that he's unconcerned . Nowhere does she say or think that. Some key details from that scene :

i).. "Rushing through the barn doors was like running into a furnace. The air was swirling with smoke, the back wall a sheet of fire ground to roof. Their horses and donkeys were kicking and rearing and screaming. The poor animals, Arya thought. Then she saw the wagon, and the three men manacled to its bed. Biter was flinging himself against the chains, blood running down his arms from where the irons clasped his wrists. Rorge screamed curses, kicking at the wood." ... this sets the scene.

ii).. Continuing... “Boy!” called Jaqen H’ghar. “Sweet boy!” .. and a few seconds later... "“Good boys, kind boys,” called Jaqen H’ghar, coughing "... To this point, Jaqen is the only one we're told is coughing. Between those two calls, we're told that.. "the fire was spreading fast consuming the old wood and dry straw faster than she would have believed. Arya remembered the Hound’s horrible burned face." ... Arya reminds us of what afire can do to a person.
Arya then goes to get the axe, gets away from one of Lorch's men, and...

iii)..  "Smoke was pouring out the open door like a writhing black snake, and she could hear the screams of the poor animals inside, donkeys and horses and men. She chewed her lip, and darted through the doors, crouched low where the smoke wasn’t quite so thick. 

A donkey was caught in a ring of fire, shrieking in terror and pain. She could smell the stench of burning hair. The roof was gone up too, and things were falling down, pieces of flaming wood and bits of straw and hay. Arya put a hand over her mouth and nose. She couldn’t see the wagon for the smoke, but she could still hear Biter screaming. She crawled toward the sound."  ... Arya is keepng down,out of the smoke as much as possible. The men in the wagon are unable to do the same. When she reaches the wagon... "And then a wheel was looming over her. The wagon jumped and moved a half foot when Biter threw himself against his chains again." 
The narration continues with (for me) the most key detail ..

iv).. "Jaqen saw her, but it was too hard to breathe, let alone talk." .. Jaqen is the subject. The sentence is about him.. it's too hard for him to breathe. He's not unconcerned, he's been increasingly affected by smoke inhalation throughout the scene. The smoke has become worse each time it's been mentioned. He's the only one described as coughing, until Arya herself coughs as she runs for the tunnel.

v).. OK, so Rorge has caught the axe.. As Arya runs to the tunnel, ... "She heard the steel crash through the old wood, and again, again. An instant later came a crack as loud as thunder, and the bottom of the wagon came ripping loose in an explosion of splinters." .. (GRRM has told us in a SSM that Rorge and Biter are long time partners. Rorge grabbed Biter off the streets as a boy and raised him to fight in dog fighting pits.. Jaqen is separate from them.) ... Rorge has chopped the floor out of the wagon, but each man was individually chained to the floor. Obviously he would chop himself and Biter free, but would he do the same for Jaqen ? Jaqen has painted himself as a cut above them - more polite, less threatening. ... There really isn't any reason to assume they would help him. That they happened to be chained in the same cage because they were all thought to be deadly dangerous, is not enough reason, IMO. ... When have Rorge and Biter shown the least sympathy or friendship for anyone else?... Yes, they help with the weasel soup, but before they do that, Arya notices fear flicker across Rorge's face at the mere mention of Jaqen's name .. and that is not until Harrenhall.

So, Arya hears the bottom of the wagon come ripping loose just as she rolls into the tunnel, and ....

vi).. "Above was nothing but blood and roaring red and choking smoke and the screams of dying horses. She moved her belt around so Needle would not be in her way, and began to crawl. A dozen feet down the tunnel she heard the sound, like the roar of some monstrous beast, and a cloud of hot smoke and black dust came billowing up behind her, smelling of hell." .. It would only take seconds to crawl a dozen feet (try it out) and at that point, she hears what can only be the sound of the barn collapsing in on itself. It's doubtful that Rorge could have chopped Jaqen free from the floor of the wagon .. even if he had wanted to. (And are chained men much better off than tethered horses?)

It was too difficult for Jaqen to breathe (or be making any attempt to free himself).. could he have summoned the strength, or breath it would have taken to get out in time, even if his chains were freed from the bottom of the wagon?

vii).. Even if all that were possible, how could Jaqen appear in Harrenhall without burns?  Yes, of course, as an FM he can cast a glamour , but his disguised real person would still have real burns to his body and certainly to his scalp. Biter ,who doesn't wear a lot of clothes, is covered  in burns that are only half healed... Yet Jaqen sits lounging in a steaming hot bath, with a serving girl pouring buckets of hot water over his head. Any of us who has ever had a burn knows that even a recently completely healed burn is still very sensitive to hot water, for quite a long time. (In my experience with a hot oil burn, still somewhat sensitive, a couple of months after healing.)

2) I absolutely cannot buy that he would seriously risk his own life merely to test Arya. What good would it do, if she passed the test, but he died? If he knew a way to get out, he would have done it by then. If she was such a precious recruit , why let her run back into a battle, where she could easily have died, to get the axe to save him? This makes no sense to me.

I feel sure that up until the fire, Jaqen was the real Jaqen. He died in the fire, or shortly after (Quentyn took three days to die, but without the complication of smoke inhalation), and our FM then adopted his appearance.

[finger]

Many things

Trant stormed in with five Lannister men while Arya was trainning with Syrio. He introduced himself as a knight of the King Guard. Syrio killed the Lannisters and Arya fled. Actually, Trent and Syrio had little to fight about. They could drill a bit, but then Trent would remember that he had a task to accomplish and it wasn't the moment to fiddle about. If Syrio yielded, I imagine them talking friendly all the way to the dungeons. I could also imagine Syrio finding a way to escape, but a FM in the dungeons is needed.

I also can imagine small talk in the small councill. Like Varys talking Ned about the incident on the Trident, and the possibility to hire a good teacher.

Pieces fit, but I lack the purpose.

As for the dungeons,... Three sellswords are in. There comes a short bald old man and they start messing about him. The newcomer kills one of them and takes his clothes and face. They know what it's all about, and lose the nerve to keep messing round with a FM. The keeper finds out the mischief anf send them down the dark cells.

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, finger said:

Many things

Trant stormed in with five Lannister men while Arya was trainning with Syrio. He introduced himself as a knight of the King Guard. Syrio killed the Lannisters and Arya fled. Actually, Trent and Syrio had little to fight about. They could drill a bit, but then Trent would remember that he had a task to accomplish and it wasn't the moment to fiddle about. If Syrio yielded, I imagine them talking friendly all the way to the dungeons. I could also imagine Syrio finding a way to escape, but a FM in the dungeons is needed.

I also can imagine small talk in the small councill. Like Varys talking Ned about the incident on the Trident, and the possibility to hire a good teacher.

Pieces fit, but I lack the purpose.

As for the dungeons,... Three sellswords are in. There comes a short bald old man and they start messing about him. The newcomer kills one of them and takes his clothes and face. They know what it's all about, and lose the nerve to keep messing round with a FM. The keeper finds out the mischief anf send them down the dark cells.

Somehow this struck me the wrong way. I can’t really put my finger on it. Wouldn’t it be easier to say something like no Syrio is not a FM? Or maybe LF hiring a FM is dumb? Or your theory stinks?