Syrio took Meryn's face?

[Clegane'sPup]

3 hours ago, bemused said:

<snip>

2) I absolutely cannot buy that he would seriously risk his own life merely to test Arya. What good would it do, if she passed the test, but he died? If he knew a way to get out, he would have done it by then. If she was such a precious recruit , why let her run back into a battle, where she could easily have died, to get the axe to save him? This makes no sense to me.

<snip>

I agree that there was no test. The man in the cage was unafraid because he embraced the “all men must die” rhetoric. Arya was not a potential recruit. She was observed while fighting the boys, Arya I ACoK using techniques that Syrio taught her, "They were all looking at her, even the three chained and manacled in the back of the wagon."

[bemused]

finger.. Your post is very imaginitive.. .. But, again, did you not read the part where Trant commands the guards, "Kill the Braavosi and bring me the girl" ? Why on earth would he spare Syrio, when Syrio foiled the most important part of Trant's mission from the Queen Regent, making Trant look bad ?

Aside: Rorge and Biter were not sellswords,then.. they were involved in the dog fighting scene in Flea Bottom, and we don't know what Jaqen was, except he was originally from Lorath,. They may well not even have known each other before that. And as I already pointed out, Rorge showed no fear of Jaqen until Harrenhall.

aryagonnakill , Valyrian Blade ...  I think the points made upthread by Ninerings regarding ninjas are very apros pos, and though there are only vague hints of FM being used for political purposes through most of the series, almost everyone seems to accept that the Alchemist is in Oldtown on an espionage mission, not to kill Pate, or anyone else, necessarily. Then, if we read the Mercy chapter from TWoW, it becomes even more clear.

Spoiler

Arya's mission is

not to kill Raff or anyone else, but to make it look like Mercy has been killed by one of Swyft's entourage, causing a diplomatic scandal.(The Iron Bank, and probably any new Sealord will not want to deal with Cersei anymore) .. And just like the case of the Alchemist and Pate in Oldtown, it doesn't really matter to them if Arya needs to kill someone in the process, so long as she succeeds. 

 

So, no ... I don't think anyone hired a FM to kill Ned. And I agree with aryagonnakill that LF couldn't/wouldn't pay the price. ... Nor did he need to. All on his own, he managed to betray Ned and very likely convinced Joffrey to go against the council's plan and demand Ned's head .. with little or no cost to himself.

Clegane'sPup... I didn't really misunderstand you, but I put it the wrong way. I was responding to this :

On 2/1/2016 at 1:14 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Sorry, but I think Syrio is Syrio. No FM. As to the Jaqen character, I think I understand what you are inferring when using "die" but Jaqen seems to have used a glamour when he changed his face in from of her. I would have to browse back into the books. I seem to remember something about the KM telling Arya about the different ways they disguise themselves.

...just confirming that FM do know how to cast glamours. So I shouldn't have said you seem to imply, but the fact that he apparently can cast a glamour raises questions as to how many times he actually does it.

5 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

My posts were geared to the question of whether or not Syrio took Trants face. My opinion is No. Syrio is Syrio, who he told Arya he was.  Yes, I would agree that most likely Eddard sent Jory out looking for the dancing instructor. Jory probably got Syrio’s name from Mott and I do think that there is connection between Mott’s place and the HoBaW. I did not feel the need to add that information to my post because it is my stance is that Syrio is who he told Arya he was.

If the Jaqen in the cage was a glamour it is okay with me. If after Jaqen excaped the cage and a FM in Yoren’s party took Jaqen’s guise it is okay with me. I do not however think Syrio is or was a FM.

I think Syrio was put in place by the author to teach Arya how to defend herself. That also could be the reasoning behind Eddard's decision to allow Arya to learn to fight, so she could defend herself. I'm just speculating on that last bit.

Oy vey, this FM stuff can get very confusing for me. I do enjoy the topic though.

Though I'm personally not so sure Syrio is Syrio, I think it's an OK stance.

But.. Jaqen in the cage as a glamour is not OK with me .. Sure, maybe a FM could get himself arrested, but I think it would be very unlikely that a FM on an assassin's mission in KL would wear such a flashy and unusual disguise. The "World" book tells us that Lorathis are rare outside of Lorath, and this would be even more so in Westeros... not the kind of low-key disguise favoured by FM. If he was there to kill anyone, he'd be drawing unnecessary attention to himself.

OTOH, if Syrio was a FM, I can't see Trant arresting him, I can't see him taking Trant's face, for a sojourn of beating Sansa and generally doing Cersei's dirty work. I also can't see him willingly putting himself in Jaqen's restricted position. He wouldn't need to. He could become anyone...

So, for me,  if Syrio is Syrio, but I can't accept Jaqen in the cells or the cage as a glamoured FM.. if (as I believe) caged Jaqen did not survive the fire.. where the heck did Jaqen in Harrenhall come from (who obviously is a glamoured FM)?.. That was when I had to go back and reconsider if Syrio could be a FM. Then I really began to notice all the little hints stashed about in the events leading up to and during Arya's escape. The fire was the epiphany for me.

[tallTale]

30 minutes ago, bemused said:

So, for me,  if Syrio is Syrio, but I can't accept Jaqen in the cells or the cage as a glamoured FM.. if (as I believe) caged Jaqen did not survive the fire.. where the heck did Jaqen in Harrenhall come from (who obviously is a glamoured FM)?.. That was when I had to go back and reconsider if Syrio could be a FM. Then I really began to notice all the little hints stashed about in the events leading up to and during Arya's escape. The fire was the epiphany for me.

That doesn't explain why (FM)Jaqen owes Arya his life (and the other two for that matter). Not only that, but if Jaqen (in the cage) wasn't a FM then how does he even know that it was Arya that saved them?

[bemused]

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I agree that there was no test. The man in the cage was unafraid because he embraced the “all men must die” rhetoric. Arya was not a potential recruit. She was observed while fighting the boys, Arya I ACoK using techniques that Syrio taught her, "They were all looking at her, even the three chained and manacled in the back of the wagon."

I can't agree with this, except for..there was no test and she was not a recruit. i do agree with those.

As for the rest.. we don't know that the man in the cage was unafraid .. he certainly wants out, even before the fire.. “Boy! Sweet boy! Is it war, red war? Boy, free us. A man can fight. Boy!”.. and again during the fire.(Otherwise why call to Arya and the others, then.?)

All men must die ...but even FM probably don't relish such a painful, horrible death .. and what dutiful FM would be so resigned to death, when he'd been unable to report on his previous mission and still had another important mission to go on to. The time and manner of a death doesn't matter to Him of Many Faces, but it matters to people. Even FM are human.

Even the three men were looking at her.. but what does that mean ? She was involved in a spectacle - everyone was looking .. If Jaqen is, at that point, a dangerous criminal, he's probably taking note that she's plucky enough to possibly speak to him.

ETA: IMO, it's very dangerous to speak to a "criminal" Jaqen.. Rorge and Biter are always threatening and violent. They're the "obvious evil" if you will.. but if Jaqen was really dangerous enough to be in the Black Cells , he may be just as violent, though his MO is entirely different. He may give us a big clue to what that is, himself...

" This man’s ill-bred companions in captivity are named Rorge”-he waved his tankard at the noseless man-”and Biter.” Biter hissed at her again, displaying a mouthful of yellowed teeth filed into points. “A man must have some name, is that not so? Biter cannot speak and Biter cannot write, yet his teeth are very sharp, so a man calls him Biter and he smiles. Are you charmed?”
Arya backed away from the wagon. “No.” " ... Arya is not charmed by Rorge and Biter, but she's beginning to be charmed by Jaqen. He might do any sort of cold blooded thing, once a victim had been charmed into trust.

When she forces herself to overcome her fear ,approach the cage and hit Biter.. " “A boy has more courage than sense,” the one who had named himself Jaqen H’ghar observed." .. that might be true in relation to himself as well, and it's a calculation he could have been forming since .. "They were all looking at her.." ..etc.

[bemused]

22 hours ago, tallTale said:

That doesn't explain why (FM)Jaqen owes Arya his life (and the other two for that matter). Not only that, but if Jaqen (in the cage) wasn't a FM then how does he even know that it was Arya that saved them?

Hi... I wanted to respond to your earlier post about this, but you can see I got carried away..

This is a knotty question... You know, I really don't think the FM owed Arya 3 lives.. I'll come back around to this, but first..

If Jaqen in the cage wasn't a FM, who was? ..  Maybe he's someone we never met before, if so, GRRM will still have to tell us about him at some point.. But, if you're open to the possibility that he could be Syrio, here's my tentative answer to how that could be...

He escapes Trant, and nudges Arya into action with a whisper.. He becomes anyone (no-one,and no-one she knows). He keeps an eye on her, from a distance (as Syrio, he would now attract attention to her and supposedly, himself) ... Just as Yoren is told Ned is to take the black , so is Tobho Mott , since someone wants to save / get rid of Gendry at the same time.. If they were already connected, Syrio could learn of the plan through Tobho... It's obvious that Yoren is supplying himself for an overland journey..

The FM is also at Baelors Sept (like much of KL) and sees Ned beheaded ..He may have had a plan to sneak Arya out of KL and join Ned on the way (if so it would now be defunct) ...but now he sees Yoren nab her , and sees Yoren has cut her hair.. It would be easy to get some idea of what Yoren's plan was (either get her to Robb, or take her to WF).. He follows under some random disguise, and becomes one of Yoren's other recruits while they are out foraging, or taking care of business in the woods.. e.g.- "Forced to live off the land, Yoren turned to Koss and Kurz, who’d been taken as poachers. He would send them ahead of the column, into the woods, and come dusk they would be back with a deer slung between them on a pole or a brace of quail swinging from their belts." ...(He might have made a switch in KL, but it would be easier in the countryside.)

At the holdfast, I suspect he would be one of the 3 men Yoren sent to the watch tower, who all survived. Kurz was one of those men. .. After the fire Arya & co. find and bury Yoren's corpse. The rest were too numerous, and dogs or wolves had been at them. I don't think they were looking too closely at all the bodies, and Arya is not yet as observant as Syrio was teaching her to be. She might not have recognised Jaqen's corpse ,especially if it was burned. But a FM very well might.

Kurz teaches Arya & co. some valuable survival lessons before he leaves them. But why would he leave them if he was a FM? ..

1).. The young ones would not want to split up. It's harder for 5 or 6 to hide than 1 or 2.

2).. From the watchtower, he might have seen Lorch accepting Rorge and Biter and known Lorch would take Jaqen, too.

3).. All the captives were being taken to Harrenhall... Would he be in a better position to help Arya (and himself) as as a captive or as one of Lorch's men ?

4).. True, if he wasn't Jaqen he couldn't have seen Arya rescue the men, but as "new" Jaqen, he could have got the info out of Rorge... or as Kurz, from Arya & co.

Oops! i have to break off for a bit . i'l come back and edit in the 3 lives part.

EDIT: OK, owing 3 lives.. Now I have to weigh this one statement about owing 3 lives against all the other clues, and it has never seemed like enough to knock them all down. ...To begin with, a FM being so attached to the Red God always seemed a bit dubious to me. The FM honour all gods, but they don't worship them. They take the different aspects of death found in each religion as a representation of the God they do worship, the Many -Faced God. For the FM, Death is the ultimate uber-god, or the One God. All men must die, that's inevitable - when or how is immaterial to Him. If you miss your rendezvous with Him today, there could be a new one tomorrow, or in a year, or ten, etc....and "The Gift" is a gift to men, not to the God, in the FM view. The whole concept of stealing a life and paying it back must be foreign to the Faceless Men.

There are ambiguities any way you look at this question. Jaqen says the Red God is a jealous god..and I think that's true to judge by what we know of Mel (declaring that all other gods are false and/or servants of The Other). But the FM don't give R'Hllor precedence over any of the other Many...they provide statues of the many gods in the HoB&W to give solace to those who have come to seek death, to give them the face of the divine that they believe in.

Though FM knowledge of various religions must be quite extensive, I can't imagine that they go through their lives, daily tasks and missions carefully adhering to the tenets of each of those gods, whose religions may have conflicting beliefs. Think of the difficulties that could create.

So, R'Hllor is not our FM's god, nor is he Arya's, whose only concept of gods is the old gods and the Seven. In light of this, I have to think that "owing a debt to the red god" is indeed, just a way of getting close to Arya and gaining her trust, so that he can better watch out for her and help her. ...She never got very close to Jaqen on the road, and now has reason to resent him for joining Lorch. She has no real reason to trust him, but has at least familiarity, which is better than if he presented himself as a stranger. .. As one of Lorch's men, he has more power to help her than as someone else...( but he gives her to understand that he doesn't have unlimited time.)

Later, when he swears in the godswood , the heart tree represents the old gods, but he swears by all the gods, which of course, includes his own. ... Any way you look at it, Jaqen H'gar is dead - either he always was, or he died at the holdfast, but it's clear who Arya means by "Jaqen H'gar"..and he's sworn (by his own god) to kill whoever she names.

I'm not sure he ever would have changed faces in front of her or given her the coin, if she had not been reluctant to reveal herself to the freed northmen.

He has to leave, but since she isn't sure it's safe to say who she is -

1) he leaves her another option at the personal level, and / or...
2) on a political level (if/when she does reveal herself), leaves a sign to Robb that he may owe one to the FM and Braavos , or that he has their interest. (The FM knows she wants to go to Riverrun.)

If she didn't save Jaqen in the cage, she never saved 3 lives... and even if she did save him, I don't think the FM would be so scrupulous about following the dogma of R'Hllor ( e.g. they don't keep a nightfire, or preach that he is the only true god, etc..)

Regarding that personal level, there's plenty about the FM and Braavos that we don't know. We do know that GRRM has repeatedly said he adheres to the Fitzgerald quote - the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself... Over and over again, we see characters wrestle with this inner conflict - Jon, Jaime ,Tyrion, and on and on. Why should FM be exempt? (We know they can have feelings and attachments. When they refuse to kill people that they know, it means that they won't be tested in this way.)

As I mentioned, "He kissed her hair softly" stands out to me in a big way. There's something tender, familial , even parental about it..Something that at that stage , might be a bit too familiar to reflect the past interactions between Jaqen and Arya. It might fit better with Syrio, who called her "Arya, child," .. OR, there could be some other explanation, as yet unwritten ...Who is this FM, really? What brought him to give himself to the HoB&W? We know his father is dead (and if the Alchemist is his real appearance, he's quite young)... Might he once have had a plucky, feisty little sister like Arya?.. Is his heart all too human and has he exceeded what he would have been expected to do ? I think we will find out at some point.

I didn't start out trying to find ways for Syrio to be alive.. If he lived , it would be cool , if he died it would be poignant (like Yoren).. The one thing I became most sure of on a re-read, is that Jaqen most probably died in the fire , so I had to consider that my starting point, and assess the possibilities going backward and forward from there.. that leaves me leaning heavily toward Syrio surviving, but knowing that GRRM may yet write about some FM coming in from left field to become Jaqen... If I'm wrong about Jaqen's death, then GRRM fooled me, but he definitely made the effort to plant those clues.

[bemused]

I realise I probably should have made the above edit a separate post, or it might get lost, so..bump.. 

[Davos' Digits]

I dont think that there was a normal person called Jaqen H'ghar whose identity was stolen by a faceless man. I doubt the FM would take the ID of somone who actually existed, especially if that person was a known murderer. Why would they take the name and face of someone who could easily be recognised. In this time of war, people are moving all over the country and even miles away from KL, the is a chance he could run in to soneone who knew the real Jaqen. Not really a smart move from someone whos job it is to blend in and go unnoticed. I think Jaqen H'ghar, whether previously Syrio or any other FM, was a totally original alter ego.

[bemused]

9 hours ago, Davos' Digits said:

I dont think that there was a normal person called Jaqen H'ghar whose identity was stolen by a faceless man. I doubt the FM would take the ID of somone who actually existed, especially if that person was a known murderer. Why would they take the name and face of someone who could easily be recognised. In this time of war, people are moving all over the country and even miles away from KL, the is a chance he could run in to soneone who knew the real Jaqen. Not really a smart move from someone whos job it is to blend in and go unnoticed. I think Jaqen H'ghar, whether previously Syrio or any other FM, was a totally original alter ego.

I'm not sure I know what you mean... Are you saying that there never was a man named Jaqen H'gar, alive or dead, but that Jaqen is an invented appearance? (That would be a mummer disguise, and the easiest kind to see through.) We know how those work.. make-up, wigs, fake warts, etc. (It's the kind Varys uses)... That was not the kind of disguise Jaqen was usung, because we saw him change his face at the sweep of his hand.

The most advanced FM face change requires wearing the "mask" of a dead person, while a glamour requires knowing the proper magic ... and if you want it to be really good, wearing something worn by the person you want to imitate..

[Minuteman]

Martin has made a comment on Syrio that he was amused that such grand conspiracies had formed around his character and it's nothing that he ever anticipated. From this I take it that Syrio Forrel was written to be Arya's swordsmaster and nothing more. Maybe he was killed by Trant or maybe he fought off Trant long enough to allow Arya's escape before making his own. From a literary standpoint it is a distinction without difference. Regardless his part in the story ended with aGoT.

[bemused]

8 hours ago, Minuteman said:

Martin has made a comment on Syrio that he was amused that such grand conspiracies had formed around his character and it's nothing that he ever anticipated. From this I take it that Syrio Forrel was written to be Arya's swordsmaster and nothing more. Maybe he was killed by Trant or maybe he fought off Trant long enough to allow Arya's escape before making his own. From a literary standpoint it is a distinction without difference. Regardless his part in the story ended with aGoT.

Well, I doubt it. I think everyone is pretty familiar with GRRM's quotes about Syrio , and the fact is, they settle nothing, or people wouldn't still be trying to figure it all out. If GRRM had some surprise in store (or information to be revealed in a future book) he wouldn't spoil it in a Q&A.

He's made sure to remind us regularly of Syrio in Arya's chapters throughout the series and on into TWoW. We may never meet the character again, as Syrio.. but I think we'll find out more about him. Syrio may have played a part in the backstory..  To which Sealord was he First Sword? How did his career as First Sword end? Was his Sealord the one who witnessed Doran's marriage pact? Why were Dany and Viserys actually turned out? (After all, Darry was not the main person being given refuge.)

There's a lot we could learn, even through other characters discussing Syrio ..

Spoiler

and in the Mercy chapter, we hear of Phario Forel, who Arya may have met, or may yet meet..

 

And of course, if the Syrio we met was a FM, who became Jaqen,who became the Alchemist .. the character is still active in the story.. just not as Syrio.

If he's dead, it probably isn't thanks to Trant.

 

[Davos' Digits]

14 hours ago, bemused said:

I'm not sure I know what you mean... Are you saying that there never was a man named Jaqen H'gar, alive or dead, but that Jaqen is an invented appearance? (That would be a mummer disguise, and the easiest kind to see through.)

I didn't think that he was using a mummers disguise. I thought he had actually changed his face, as when he leaves Arya, but I didn't realise that those faces had actually belonged to people. I thought that when the FM took a new face/mask, it was sort of randomly generated but could be tailored to suit the purpose. For instance, if a FM was trying to pass off as, say, a beggar, the face would be entirely random but he could choose to have things like scabs and sores. It doesnt seem to make sense that a somebody who wanted to remain a grey man would make himself look like somebody who could be recognised and draw unwanted attention. Although in the particular case of Jaqen, I could see why he would do this if it was always his attention to get caught and thrown in the black cells.

[bemused]

4 hours ago, Davos' Digits said:

I didn't think that he was using a mummers disguise. I thought he had actually changed his face, as when he leaves Arya, but I didn't realise that those faces had actually belonged to people. I thought that when the FM took a new face/mask, it was sort of randomly generated but could be tailored to suit the purpose. For instance, if a FM was trying to pass off as, say, a beggar, the face would be entirely random but he could choose to have things like scabs and sores. It doesnt seem to make sense that a somebody who wanted to remain a grey man would make himself look like somebody who could be recognised and draw unwanted attention. Although in the particular case of Jaqen, I could see why he would do this if it was always his attention to get caught and thrown in the black cells.

OK, I see what you mean, but we haven't seen anyone be able to do that yet , although the KM says there are many methods of changing faces. We may still get to see more of them.

The faces Arya sees on the walls appear to all once have been living people, and it's implied that they once sought death at the HoB&W. Arya receives not only the face and physical appearance, but the memories of the Ugly Little Girl, and the KM tells Arya something about her story...  so she definitely was once a living person. There's no suggestion that the KM (or Arya) is able to make added alterations to her mask.

In Oldtown, we see that the Alchemist wants to be recognised as Pate, so they aren't always avoiding being recognised, but avoiding looking out of place..

As for Jaqen, I can't think that a FM would intentionally want to be caught and thrown in the Black cells.. chained up like that, he'd be unable to take action and unable to defend himself. It seems a very poor choice, to me.

[Davos' Digits]

Yes bemused, your right that it is implied that the faces are of people who a) were real people and b ) sought the gift at the HoBaW. I must have overlooked it when I read it originally, Arya thinks of them as just leather hoods instead of actual skins. At this point I should probably retract my argument that I dont think the FM would take the identity of a real person. There is so much going on and so many seemingly unimportant details (lots of which obviously become important) in ASOIAF that it is easy to miss certain things.