Alaynsa Starne Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 I apologize if this has been posted before, but this is something I thought about awhile ago and it just popped back into my head. In Bran's coma-dreams in AGOT, he dreams: Quote He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood. Now, there has been a lot of speculation about what this stone giant is meant to represent. I've seen theories arguing that it is Gregor, UnGregor, Littlefinger, and even Syrio. I postulate that rather than referring to a specific individual, the stone giant is meant to metaphorically represent one of the largest themes of the series: the hypocrisy of knighthood. The armor made of stone represents the cold, ancient, and impenetrable force that is knighthood. Inside, it is full of nothing but darkness and blood due to the violent destruction that is wrought by knights. Now, I note this because it seems to fit the most. There are shadows around Arya and Sansa, with two specific standouts: Sandor and Jaime. It's possible that the other shadows that surround them are also knights that are dangerous to the girls such as Amory, Meryn, Boros, etc. However, the stone giant looms specifically over Sandor and Jaime, almost as though it imposes most heavily upon them. Sandor and Jaime, more than anyone else in the series, struggle greatly with the hypocrisy of knighthood and social structures that enforce the order. They are both constrained by knighthood -- even though Sandor has never taken a knight's vows, he is still heavily influenced by their existence -- while also struggling philosophically with the order and idealizing individuals that they feel embody that chivalric code. The modern Kingsguard, which was so idealistically honored in past generations, shows that the order is not only failing miserably, but that it likely never was a particularly moral body in the first place. As Jaime notes, the vows are too much and no matter what one does, one must forsake one vow for another. In short: the stone giant is a metaphor for the evils of knighthood that haunt both Sandor and Jaime specifically, and deeply impact the thematic direction of the text. What say you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fresh PtwP Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 You made me look at the vision in a new light... I disagree with the giant as a metaphor, but I believe your on the right track with the KG. Jaime, Sandor, Gregor. All knights of the KG at some point. Hmmm crackpot alert! Jaime vs Sandor-Hands tourney Sandor vs Gregor-saving Loras Jaime vs Gregor?-Cersei's trial! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyoftheNorth72 Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 I believe that the shadow referred to as golden and beautiful, shining like the sun, is actually Joffrey. Despite his rotten insides, most people seem to find him to fit that very description (at least until they get to know him). And he is the horrible shadow casting terror over Sansa's every waking hour while she's in KL. The most obvious thought regarding the giant armored in stone would seem to be Robert Strong, but that storyline as yet really has nothing to do with the two girls, so that's a problem. It could be the dark side of knighthood in general, or the Titan of Bravos (maybe Sansa will run there to get away from Cersei if her location is betrayed, as it appears will happen shortly). Maybe it represents the Twins, a giant made of stone which wound up hosting an event so horrific it is called the Red Wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah.jenice Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 I really like this, OP. i think it actually makes more sense than it being a specific person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaynsa Starne Posted January 29, 2016 Author Share Posted January 29, 2016 1 hour ago, LadyoftheNorth72 said: I believe that the shadow referred to as golden and beautiful, shining like the sun, is actually Joffrey. Despite his rotten insides, most people seem to find him to fit that very description (at least until they get to know him). And he is the horrible shadow casting terror over Sansa's every waking hour while she's in KL. The most obvious thought regarding the giant armored in stone would seem to be Robert Strong, but that storyline as yet really has nothing to do with the two girls, so that's a problem. It could be the dark side of knighthood in general, or the Titan of Bravos (maybe Sansa will run there to get away from Cersei if her location is betrayed, as it appears will happen shortly). Maybe it represents the Twins, a giant made of stone which wound up hosting an event so horrific it is called the Red Wedding. I'm pretty sure Jaime is the only one with golden armor. And I don't think unGregor fits because the giant is looming over Sandor and Jaime (or Joff) and Robert Strong doesn't show up until 5 books later. Neither Jaime nor Joff are haunted or threatened by Robert Strong. Bran's visions are happening in real time, or nearly real time. It doesn't really fit for the giant to be unGregor, I don't think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 11 minutes ago, Alaynsa Starne said: I'm pretty sure Jaime is the only one with golden armor. And I don't think unGregor fits because the giant is looming over Sandor and Jaime (or Joff) and Robert Strong doesn't show up until 5 books later. Neither Jaime nor Joff are haunted or threatened by Robert Strong. Bran's visions are happening in real time, or nearly real time. It doesn't really fit for the giant to be unGregor, I don't think. I believe the man armored like the sun is Oberyn, who wears armor covered in copper designed to reflect the sun, like he does in his fight vs Gregor. If it is Oberyn it makes complete sense that he is looming over him and Sandor because they both want to kill him, Oberyn succeeded but was killed in turn, perhaps Sandor will do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaynsa Starne Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 13 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: I believe the man armored like the sun is Oberyn, who wears armor covered in copper designed to reflect the sun, like he does in his fight vs Gregor. If it is Oberyn it makes complete sense that he is looming over him and Sandor because they both want to kill him, Oberyn succeeded but was killed in turn, perhaps Sandor will do the same. Except that the word "golden" is specifically used. Copper isn't golden, it's red. Plus, the visions are given in what seems to be real time, and Oberyn isn't anywhere near the Stark girls at the time, nor does he have anything to do with Sansa even when he is in KL. The association is almost certainly meant to be made with Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 9 hours ago, Alaynsa Starne said: Except that the word "golden" is specifically used. Copper isn't golden, it's red. Plus, the visions are given in what seems to be real time, and Oberyn isn't anywhere near the Stark girls at the time, nor does he have anything to do with Sansa even when he is in KL. The association is almost certainly meant to be made with Jaime. The Mountain is not there in real time, we had not even been introduced to him yet, if he is there why cannot Oberyn be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 10 hours ago, Alaynsa Starne said: Except that the word "golden" is specifically used. Copper isn't golden, it's red. Plus, the visions are given in what seems to be real time, and Oberyn isn't anywhere near the Stark girls at the time, nor does he have anything to do with Sansa even when he is in KL. The association is almost certainly meant to be made with Jaime. The Sun is on the symbol of House Martell. I think it could be either Jaime or Oberyn, however in context with what happens later Oberyn makes more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaynsa Starne Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 6 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: The Mountain is not there in real time, we had not even been introduced to him yet, if he is there why cannot Oberyn be? It's your personal interpretation that the Mountain is in the vision. I strongly disagree with that assertion. And if the vision is meant to be interpreted as Oberyn and the Mountain, why is Gregor described as he is after he died rather than as the living man who killed Oberyn? If it is meant to be a vision of Oberyn and Gregor -- and again, the two shadows in the vision, Sandor and the golden one, are described as surrounding Arya and Sansa. Oberyn's and Gregor's feud has nothing to do with the Stark girls. -- then why does the vision more aptly describe Robert Strong rather than the living man who actually haunted Oberyn? 5 hours ago, Leonardo said: The Sun is on the symbol of House Martell. I think it could be either Jaime or Oberyn, however in context with what happens later Oberyn makes more sense. Yes, the sun is the symbol of the Martells. However, the vision is described thusly: "Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful." That isn't really congruous with the notion that the symbol of House Martell is what is meant to be represented here. We have Quaithe's warnings to Dany that give us an idea of the way prominent houses are represented in visions in-series when house sigils are seen instead of specific individuals: Quent is described as "the sun's son." In Bran's vision, it's not that the golden figure is the sun, or that his armor has a sun sigil, or some variation of that. It's that the figure is armored like the sun, and the only character to have armor like that is Jaime. I don't think we're meant to associate the character with the sun so much as we are supposed to be able to identify who the man is based on his choice of armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 And we've already gone over the fact that Oberyn wears armor that reflects the sun on purpose; Quentyn also being represented by the sun later on only strengthens this idea that theyre refering to Martells, and Sandor is also represented by his sigil in the face being a hound. Jaime isn't around Sansa or Arya ever really; however, Oberyn is, and is also a key figure in her husband's trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiemal Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I agree that the stone armor filled with darkness and blood is the code of westerosi chivalry itself; rigidly fixed but brittle and empty, filled with blood shed in the name of "honor" and "justice". The Hound and Jaime both sneer at knightly chivalry as a hypocritical veneer draped over the brutal violence and intimidation. Sansa has gotten a bellyfull of that lesson, but I'm not sure that Arya ever needed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finger Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 A giant armored in stone? Tywin Lannister from Casterly Rock. The question is why there's nothing inside. Might be Tywin's children are Aerys'? Or the Lannisters will eventually be swept. I couldn't tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaynsa Starne Posted March 9, 2016 Author Share Posted March 9, 2016 On 1/31/2016 at 8:24 PM, Leonardo said: And we've already gone over the fact that Oberyn wears armor that reflects the sun on purpose; Quentyn also being represented by the sun later on only strengthens this idea that theyre refering to Martells, and Sandor is also represented by his sigil in the face being a hound. Jaime isn't around Sansa or Arya ever really; however, Oberyn is, and is also a key figure in her husband's trial. No, Oberyn isn't around Arya at all ever, and I don't think he ever even interacts with Sansa let alone threatens her. Furthermore, Sansa doesn't stick around for Tyrion's trial, so that's a moot point. He has absolutely nothing to do with the girls beyond the very loose connection he has with Sansa through Tyrion. Jaime, however, is near Sansa and Arya at the time of Bran's vision, and does in fact pose a threat to the Starks in Kingslanding for the duration of his time there. He had even hunted for Arya with the intent to do her harm. Also, the vision explicitly says that the armor is golden. Not copper armor reflecting the sun. Not sigiled with a sun. The figure is not even described as the sun, as members of houses are often equated with literal objects of their sigils. It is a man with armor that is golden and beautiful, like the sun. To stretch that to include Oberyn, whose copper armor is only golden-looking in certain lights, when we have a more direct and logical interpretation for the lines in which the individual is directly referenced and the broader context of the passage is, I think, torturing logic to make things fit in a way that they just don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yomi Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 18 hours ago, Alaynsa Starne said: No, Oberyn isn't around Arya at all ever, and I don't think he ever even interacts with Sansa let alone threatens her. Furthermore, Sansa doesn't stick around for Tyrion's trial, so that's a moot point. He has absolutely nothing to do with the girls beyond the very loose connection he has with Sansa through Tyrion. Jaime, however, is near Sansa and Arya at the time of Bran's vision, and does in fact pose a threat to the Starks in Kingslanding for the duration of his time there. He had even hunted for Arya with the intent to do her harm. Well, Oberyn (and Ellaria) and Sansa (and Tyrion) actually have a conversation about Baelor I and Viserys II after Joffrey destroyed the book Tyrion gave him, but he has no connection to Arya at all, so I agree with you, Jaime who travels with the girls from Winterfell to KL, who hunted Arya, who hurted their father and who is later exchanged for the girls makes much more sense to be seen as a shadow looming above both of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 If we take the hound shadow as Sandor and the golden shadow as Jaime, then it makes sense that the giant in stone armor would also be someone who is also with the king's party at Darry. So who could that be? Gregor is not there, so other similarities aside, let's put that aside for the moment. Robert himself might appear as a giant, and his decisions loom over everyone in the party, including Ned, Jaime and Sandor. It doesn't seem to fit Renly, Selmy, Joffrey or Cersei. The only other person I can think of would be Ser Illyn. He looms over Ned as the person who will take his head with his own sword, and now he is helping Jaime learn to fight left-handed, so he makes a significant contribution to that arc as well. Mayhaps he will have an encounter with the Sandor as well? So it's still ambiguous, but I give Illyn Payne at least a 20 percent chance of being the stone giant. Maybe he'll be the one Sansa slays in the castle made of snow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 What if the stone giant is someone we haven't met yet? Someone tall, who develops greyscale maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaynsa Starne Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 Just now, yomi said: Well, Oberyn (and Ellaria) and Sansa (and Tyrion) actually have a conversation about Baelor I and Viserys II after Joffrey destroyed the book Tyrion gave him, but he has no connection to Arya at all, so I agree with you, Jaime who travels with the girls from Winterfell to KL, who hunted Arya, who hurted Ned and who is later exchanged for the girls makes much more sense to be seen as a shadow looming above both of them. Oh, thanks! I couldn't remember if Sansa had ever met Oberyn. 24 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: If we take the hound shadow as Sandor and the golden shadow as Jaime, then it makes sense that the giant in stone armor would also be someone who is also with the king's party at Darry. So who could that be? Gregor is not there, so other similarities aside, let's put that aside for the moment. Robert himself might appear as a giant, and his decisions loom over everyone in the party, including Ned, Jaime and Sandor. It doesn't seem to fit Renly, Selmy, Joffrey or Cersei. The only other person I can think of would be Ser Illyn. He looms over Ned as the person who will take his head with his own sword, and now he is helping Jaime learn to fight left-handed, so he makes a significant contribution to that arc as well. Mayhaps he will have an encounter with the Sandor as well? So it's still ambiguous, but I give Illyn Payne at least a 20 percent chance of being the stone giant. Maybe he'll be the one Sansa slays in the castle made of snow? Ser Ilyn is an interesting possibility, but the point of this thread was to discuss the possibility of the stone giant being a metaphor for the emptiness of knighthood, not to try and pinpoint which literal character it may or may not be. 13 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: What if the stone giant is someone we haven't met yet? Someone tall, who develops greyscale maybe? It's possible, but I doubt it. That particular part of the visions reads as in real time to me. The stone giant would have to be a person or concept that plagues Jaime and Sandor at the time of the vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Nope. It's Petyr. He is revealed to be the big bad--the true antagonist to the false protagonist Eddard and the rest of his house--at the very end of Storm. Keep in mind that ASOIAF was intended to be a trilogy with the Stark-Lannister conflict the central plot line for the first act, which grew into Game, Clash And Storm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterfellsedai Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Stone giant: Titan of Bravos...Petyr's ancestral sigil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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