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Will we get an unJon POV?


Daendrew

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3 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Yeah, I read that hit someone in the right spot in the back and they'll go into a coma. I think Jon isn't dead just near-death and comatose much like Bran was in AGoT.

I think we may see Jon's POV through Ghost, especially if BranRaven visits him and shows him visions as well as revive him.  

For me the book is very clear: the wounds are fatal. And the show is clearer still. Jon may be half an hour dying. And the cold could slow that more. And if someone has enough magic to resurrect him, he or she could have enough to heal him before it is too late. That could be... But I don't think so.

I think he must pass by a death to be reborn. For me, Aemon’s words: "Kill the boy and let the man be born" are clearly saying Jon will be alive again (born=alive), not some animated dead meat. IMO, a near death experience, like Bran for example, is OK only if the illusion is short, a few chapters span in one book. Maybe we are biased by the delay between the books, but IMO, after so much time, an illusion of death  would be like cheating, would be anticlimactic.

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3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

For me the book is very clear: the wounds are fatal. And the show is clearer still. Jon may be half an hour dying. And the cold could slow that more. And if someone has enough magic to resurrect him, he or she could have enough to heal him before it is too late. That could be... But I don't think so.

I think he must pass by a death to be reborn. For me, Aemon’s words: "Kill the boy and let the man be born" are clearly saying Jon will be alive again (born=alive), not some animated dead meat. IMO, a near death experience, like Bran for example, is OK only if the illusion is short, a few chapters span in one book. Maybe we are biased by the delay between the books, but IMO, after so much time, an illusion of death  would be like cheating, would be anticlimactic.

The problem is GRRM said he doesn't do full-scale resurrections, and that's a reason why I don't think Jon is dead. The cold would likely prevent him from bleeding out like it did Adrian Scrope. 

Death can be in a metaphorical sense. Jon would learn of his heritage in this experience. Jon Snow would die for Jon Targaryen to be born, or "Jon the boy" dies for "Jon the man" to be born.  

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It would be interesting to have a POV of Jon as a undead and I think we have good possibility to have some. We already had some POVs with the character warging an animal, so if Jon is inside Ghost's mind we can see what happened in the wall after the assassination.

And I don't Jon will have no more POV chapters after his resurrection. He is one of the main characters, we follow him since the first book and he will play a important role in the final of the saga. He would not be the same, but it would not prevent us to know what is happening inside his head. Characters that comeback from the dead changed, but we have to see the circumstances of the changes. Beric lost almost all the memories of his past life, but it was after he die and comeback six time. Lady Stoneheart is in have the body in bad shape, can't barely talk and had noticeable changes in her personality,  but she was resurrected 3 days after her death and she died in a really traumatic way. Jon can have his body preserved and his mind is inside Ghost, Varamyr himself said a second life inside a direwolf would be something "worth of a king".  

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His arc is about weighing the guilt between accepting the KITN and King titles against the necessity that he does to save the realm. And then dealing with the guilt having accepted what he must do. It's very internal and it's very human, I don't see how it can be done with him becoming too far removed from human or from outside POVs. It doesn't necessarily mean we'll get a Jon or UnJon POV in Winds though, he could be benched for a while.

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3 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Death can be in a metaphorical sense. Jon would learn of his heritage in this experience. Jon Snow would die for Jon Targaryen to be born, or "Jon the boy" dies for "Jon the man" to be born.  

I think I've seen you say that before and I still don't get it, so I'll just ask; how do you tie neardeath and Jon learning his parentage together? He's not a greenseer like Bran, he's just a warg with no access to weirnet.

Sorry for OT.

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9 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

I think I've seen you say that before and I still don't get it, so I'll just ask; how do you tie neardeath and Jon learning his parentage together? He's not a greenseer like Bran, he's just a warg with no access to weirnet.

 

Sorry for OT.

There's the dream Jon mentions:

"Sometimes I dream about it," he said. "I’m walking down this long empty hall. My voice echoes all around, but no one answers, so I walk faster, opening doors, shouting names. I don’t even know who I’m looking for. Most nights it’s my father, but sometimes it’s Robb instead, or my little sister Arya, or my uncle." The thought of Benjen Stark saddened him; his uncle was still missing. The Old Bear had sent out rangers in search of him. Ser Jaremy Rykker had led two sweeps, and Quorin Halfhand had gone forth from the Shadow Tower, but they’d found nothing aside from a few blazes in the trees that his uncle had left to mark his way. In the stony highlands to the northwest, the marks stopped abruptly and all trace of Ben Stark vanished.
"Do you ever find anyone in your dream?" Sam asked.
Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It’s black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don’t want to. I’m afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it’s not them I’m afraid of. I scream that I’m not a Stark, that this isn’t my place, but it’s no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That’s when I always wake.

This time Jon won't be able to wake, but he will have to complete the dream, and see what is down waiting for him in the crypts. 

The mention of dreams reminded him. “I [Bran] dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.”
“And why was that?” Luwin peered through his tube.
“It was something to do about Jon, I think.” The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams.

I think Bran's dream suggests that what is waiting down in the crypts is Ned to tell Jon the truth about his heritage. 

I would sooner let Jon enjoy these last few days. Summer will end soon enough, and childhood as well. When the time comes, I [Ned] will tell him myself.

Summer has ended with winter having come, and with "kill the boy" childhood has ended for Jon, and I think Ned will tell Jon the truth in the dream. 

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3 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

There's the dream JOn mentions:

I agree these words are foreshadowing Jon learning about his mother. But has it to be that way? A few people, still living, know the truth. Howland Reed for example. IMO, he exists for this one purpose. OK, this is fantasy, but personally, I prefer when things are done the natural way, whenever it is possible. And to reserve the supernatural for when nothing else is possible.

Anyway, I'm not in a hurry to see Jon learning of his past. Maybe the reveal purpose would be to have him learning of his heirloom. But ignoring it for his duty, for what must be done to save the world. Like Aemon staying in the NW when he could have become king.

Concerning death. I don't remember what GRRM exactly said. But I don't think he used "full-scale resurrection" or "full recovery". I think he said something like: "people cannot return from death without being changed". Leaving things much to the interpretation. The Waif for example. I believe she died, some way, and has returned from death. She is changed, but I don't think she is undead.

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3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I agree these words are foreshadowing Jon learning about his mother. But has it to be that way? A few people, still living, know the truth. Howland Reed for example. IMO, he exists for this one purpose. OK, this is fantasy, but personally, I prefer when things are done the natural way, whenever it is possible. And to reserve the supernatural for when nothing else is possible.

Well, even if he met with Ned in the crypts, it doesn't mean he will tell everything to Jon; unload tons and tons of exposition is not the best way to reveal something like this. But, Ned could tell him something important and give some hints to Jon and awake his curiosity about his true origin and led him into a quest to discover more about his past. He could meet people like Howland Reed in the process and visit places like Starfall and the Tower of Joy. 

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If George wants to turn the story around and make Jon a non-POV at this stage in the story that could work fine. We could continue to see him through Melisandre's eyes, and eventually through the eyes of other POVs (Theon, Asha).

I don't think that will be the case, but it is certainly a possibility. And cutting out a POV might be a good idea to speed up the narrative.

One Ghost chapter could be interesting, but I don't want to read multiple such chapters. Whether Jon will make sense as a POV in light of his resurrection really depends on what George intends to do with him. If he develops into a darker, magically-twisted character then showing him through the eyes of others could be more in line with that purpose. But then, it could also be interesting to see how Jon's mind reacts to people visibly shaking in his presence, being afraid to the core to be forced to interact with some undead person (or a person they think is undead/unnatural/twisted because he returned from the dead).

If George does not plan to change his character all that much there is no reason why cannot continue as a POV since it is really up to George what he ends up doing with Jon. He can decide to have shrug off his (near) death experience or decide to completely change his character in the wake of it. Considering that death should be a pretty severe experience, and considering that George most likely did not include a death scene to explain it away as a fake death scene, my expectation is that it will turn out that Jon's body is indeed dead, and has to be resurrected by some magical ritual.

Whether that has any effects on his soul is another matter since he should spend all his 'dead time' in Ghost, anyway. But I'd be willing to wager quite a lot of money that Jon Snow isn't going to return to life in his body to find it to be the same unchanged body he lived up to that point. It should be severely changed/transformed, whatever is necessarily to heal or restore a body that is, effectively, dead. That shouldn't be an easy task in this world.

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If George wants to turn the story around and make Jon a non-POV at this stage in the story that could work fine. We could continue to see him through Melisandre's eyes, and eventually through the eyes of other POVs (Theon, Asha).

I don't think that will be the case, but it is certainly a possibility. And cutting out a POV might be a good idea to speed up the narrative.

One Ghost chapter could be interesting, but I don't want to read multiple such chapters. Whether Jon will make sense as a POV in light of his resurrection really depends on what George intends to do with him. If he develops into a darker, magically-twisted character then showing him through the eyes of others could be more in line with that purpose. But then, it could also be interesting to see how Jon's mind reacts to people visibly shaking in his presence, being afraid to the core to be forced to interact with some undead person (or a person they think is undead/unnatural/twisted because he returned from the dead).

If George does not plan to change his character all that much there is no reason why cannot continue as a POV since it is really up to George what he ends up doing with Jon. He can decide to have shrug off his (near) death experience or decide to completely change his character in the wake of it. Considering that death should be a pretty severe experience, and considering that George most likely did not include a death scene to explain it away as a fake death scene, my expectation is that it will turn out that Jon's body is indeed dead, and has to be resurrected by some magical ritual.

Whether that has any effects on his soul is another matter since he should spend all his 'dead time' in Ghost, anyway. But I'd be willing to wager quite a lot of money that Jon Snow isn't going to return to life in his body to find it to be the same unchanged body he lived up to that point. It should be severely changed/transformed, whatever is necessarily to heal or restore a body that is, effectively, dead. That shouldn't be an easy task in this world.

God idea

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On 1/29/2016 at 6:35 PM, dornishdame said:

My guess is that the first POV chapter we will get at the Wall in Winds is Melisandre - I think that is why she was established as a POV character in Dance. That said, I think we will also subsequently get Ghost and Jon POV chapters

A whole chapter about what things smell like at the wall and descriptions of men killing each other with their long man claws... I guess he'd be trying to tell Edd that he's really Jon somehow. Hopefully by using both front paws to manipulate an inked quill in barely legible script - "I AM JON" haha

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On 31/01/2016 at 10:28 PM, Fire Eater said:

The problem is GRRM said he doesn't do full-scale resurrections, and that's a reason why I don't think Jon is dead. The cold would likely prevent him from bleeding out like it did Adrian Scrope. 

Is Beric not a full scale resurrection? Or do you mean that he will come back changed somehow?

Just curious where are you getting this from?

 

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Well, we haven't gotten an UnCat POV, but that could of course be due to her not doing that much other than killing Freys...

Though, I'm not sure he's dead. He was wounded badly, but I think the old Scifi/Fantasy rule still applies: If you haven't seen him confirmed dead, he's still alive. So I really wouldn't be surprised if he is never dead in the books.

The whole changing and becoming darker could still happen, given that he was literally just stabbed by his own men. He'd develope trust issues for sure.

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Just now, purple-eyes said:

Am I the only person who is wondering how they will restore those four knife holes in his body?

It is not something he can simply heal by himself.

 

I think itll be like when Beric returns just scar tissue but the injuries/scars will remain

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Just now, OwloftheRainwood said:

If Cat can have her throat cut and come back, I'm pretty sure 4 abdomen wounds does not preclude his resurrection.

I think he will be alive again by magic, for sure. no matter how damaged his body is.

But Cat lost her proper speaking ability due to that. And it remained as an exposed, unhealed injury.

Technically Jon will have some problem with his internal organs in his abdomen.......

Four holes here and there unless they can do some grafting......

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Just now, purple-eyes said:

I think he will be alive again by magic, for sure. no matter how damaged his body is.

But Cat lost her proper speaking ability due to that. And it remained as an exposed, unhealed injury.

Technically Jon will have some problem with his internal organs in his abdomen.......

Four holes here and there unless they can do some grafting......

I don't think a resurrected Jon will need dialysis, he may be stiff or not move as well but that would be the  extent of it I think 

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