Will we get an unJon POV?

[OwloftheRainwood]

15 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

I think he will be alive again by magic, for sure. no matter how damaged his body is.

But Cat lost her proper speaking ability due to that. And it remained as an exposed, unhealed injury.

Technically Jon will have some problem with his internal organs in his abdomen.......

Four holes here and there unless they can do some grafting......

Beric was restored several times and could still put up a respectable fight against arguably one of the best fighters in Westeros, the Hound. It doesn't seem those restored worry about digestion or circulation. No evidence of Cat or other undead eating/excreting, and Robert Strong is explicitly stated to not use the privy (might not be 100% analogous bc we don't know Qyburn's method for restoration). I understand the desire to nit-pick and point out GRRM hasn't constructed an airtight universe, but I've never read a fantasy writer who has done so. In fact, this is unreasonable - we don't have an airtight understanding of the nonfiction world. If you're not turned off by the idea of characters being restored and cheating death, worrying about undead internal organs is small bananas. The bigger problem for the series is how death has been cheapened, not how undead organs work.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

35 minutes ago, RobOsevens said:

Is Beric not a full scale resurrection? Or do you mean that he will come back changed somehow?

Just curious where are you getting this from?

 

Beric is obviously NOT a full scale resurrection. He loses a bit of himself each time Thoros brings him back.

I am equally curious to see the source of Fire Eater's claim.

The key point is what our best educated sources believe. Both Melisandre and Mirri Maz Duur claim that "only death can pay for life". Both were educated in Asshai. We have no valid reason to doubt them. No death paid for any of Beric's revivals. Beric does not undergo a true resurrection.

Jon's "resurrection" will most probably be a unique event in the story. We've seen many different types of undead - there is no reason to expect that we have seen every possible method of revival. Still, a combination of MMD's techniques that brought Drogo back (from a death due to infection-induced systemic necrosis) combined with warging (to preserve the consciousness) seems a likely path to bring back Jon. He will come back as Jon, not unJon, but will be changed by the experience.

The obvious parallel would be Paul Atreides in the spice trance, from Dune.

I strongly suspect we will get one or two Ghost chapters.

[OwloftheRainwood]

2 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

He loses a bit of himself each time Thoros brings him back

I agree 100% except he was able to continue the fight against Lannisters/Freys generally and put up a respectable fight against a badass, the Hound. So it's hard to gauge how much ability is lost, it seems to depend heavily on what is injured, making generalities difficult. I see little evidence for JS restoration to be "unique", but it's possible if JS really meets prophecy criteria. Given the tricky - at best - relationship b/t GRRM and prophecies, this is far from certain. I also don't see much evidence for there being false vs "true resurrections". MMD could've brought Drogo back, but her aim was to avenge the Lamb Men and make sure the "Stallion that Mounts the World" remained unborn.

[Guest]

On 1/29/2016 at 5:47 PM, Daendrew said:

I would love a Ghost chapter. The Summer one was great.

 Agree, the warg chapters could also include "someone" as a tree!

[Ibbison from Ibben]

8 minutes ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

I agree 100% except he was able to continue the fight against Lannisters/Freys generally and put up a respectable fight against a badass, the Hound. So it's hard to gauge how much ability is lost, it seems to depend heavily on what is injured, making generalities difficult. I see little evidence for JS restoration to be "unique", but it's possible if JS really meets prophecy criteria. Given the tricky - at best - relationship b/t GRRM and prophecies, this is far from certain. I also don't see much evidence for there being false vs "true resurrections". MMD could've brought Drogo back, but her aim was to avenge the Lamb Men and make sure the "Stallion that Mounts the World" remained unborn.

It's not about (fighting) ability. It's about his sense of self. Each time he is brought back, Beric loses a bit of that which made him human in the first place.

One of the basic ideas in mythology and fantasy is the concept of the Hero. The Hero is different than everyone else - that's what makes him a Hero. He is semi-divine. When the Hero "dies" and then returns, he isn't lessened. He becomes greater. He is no longer fully human. He isn't sub-human - he is supra-human. That's what makes the Hero a Hero. If someone other than the Hero goes through this, he fails miserably. (Quentyn Martell.) Heroes by their very nature are unique.

[Guest]

 I hope Jon can Warg and they repair his body while he is out of it.  It would suck to have him be undead.

[OwloftheRainwood]

28 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

It's not about (fighting) ability. It's about his sense of self. Each time he is brought back, Beric loses a bit of that which made him human in the first place.

One of the basic ideas in mythology and fantasy is the concept of the Hero. The Hero is different than everyone else - that's what makes him a Hero. He is semi-divine. When the Hero "dies" and then returns, he isn't lessened. He becomes greater. He is no longer fully human. He isn't sub-human - he is supra-human. That's what makes the Hero a Hero. If someone other than the Hero goes through this, he fails miserably. (Quentyn Martell.) Heroes by their very nature are unique.

My comment was also not about fighting ability alone. Beric did not lose his "sense of self" to the point where his identity as anti-Lannister/Frey rebel was lost. A good deal of humanity is left - he sacrifices himself to bring Cat back. So again, loss of ability and identity are not quite as devastating as you suppose. You need not tell me about traditional fantasy archetypes.  I've read enough fiction, and specific textual examples go farther for me than general archetypes. I've read enough GRRM to know black-and-white traditional archetypes do not always apply to GRRM. Sounds like a good topic for an AP/first year BA literature paper, though.

The second problem here are two assumptions you make. First is the assumption that Jon meets the qualities of the epic hero archetype. There is no indication that he is "divine" or even less prone to oath-breaking than the average Crow. You might still be able to demonstrate he is a hero in the traditional sense, maybe. The second assumption is a bigger problem for your argument: GRRM will use the traditional hero archetype in the same way as authors come before. The black and white hero construct is dubious in GRRM's work, one reason his work is revolutionary and so popular. 

In sum, loss of ability and identity are not as devastating as you suppose, and your assumptions re JS and "hero" archetypes in GRRM's work are just that - assumptions. Maybe there is something to them, but from the evidence in the text, I don't see how JS is "divine". I hope R+L=J, and this makes JS a very important charcter in ASOIF, but does not make him divine.

[purple-eyes]

59 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

It's not about (fighting) ability. It's about his sense of self. Each time he is brought back, Beric loses a bit of that which made him human in the first place.

One of the basic ideas in mythology and fantasy is the concept of the Hero. The Hero is different than everyone else - that's what makes him a Hero. He is semi-divine. When the Hero "dies" and then returns, he isn't lessened. He becomes greater. He is no longer fully human. He isn't sub-human - he is supra-human. That's what makes the Hero a Hero. If someone other than the Hero goes through this, he fails miserably. (Quentyn Martell.) Heroes by their very nature are unique.

Why did I think about Gandalf? the grey came back as the white.

I agree the reborn of hero is usually a upgrade.

Hero will become something even higher after a washing of death.

Like Turin became a god after death. Gandalf became the white after death.

Jon will be completely different from Cat and Beric.

He will only become better, not worse.

We can not imagine a unCat-type Jon after his reborn........

 

 

[purple-eyes]

36 minutes ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

My comment was also not about fighting ability alone. Beric did not lose his "sense of self" to the point where his identity as anti-Lannister/Frey rebel was lost. A good deal of humanity is left - he sacrifices himself to bring Cat back. So again, loss of ability and identity are not quite as devastating as you suppose. You need not tell me about traditional fantasy archetypes.  I've read enough fiction, and specific textual examples go farther for me than general archetypes. I've read enough GRRM to know black-and-white traditional archetypes do not always apply to GRRM. Sounds like a good topic for an AP/first year BA literature paper, though.

The second problem here are two assumptions you make. First is the assumption that Jon meets the qualities of the epic hero archetype. There is no indication that he is "divine" or even less prone to oath-breaking than the average Crow. You might still be able to demonstrate he is a hero in the traditional sense, maybe. The second assumption is a bigger problem for your argument: GRRM will use the traditional hero archetype in the same way as authors come before. The black and white hero construct is dubious in GRRM's work, one reason his work is revolutionary and so popular. 

In sum, loss of ability and identity are not as devastating as you suppose, and your assumptions re JS and "hero" archetypes in GRRM's work are just that - assumptions. Maybe there is something to them, but from the evidence in the text, I don't see how JS is "divine". I hope R+L=J, and this makes JS a very important charcter in ASOIF, but does not make him divine.

I am not sure about "divine" thing, but I think Jon will be very different from Beric and Cat.

He will not be damaged by death, he will only become better and be upgraded by this death (except a few holes and scars of course)

I do not even feel it is that ridiculous that his eyes would become purple after his death, or his hair becomes silver white.

And based on the show spoiler, he certainly did not lose any ability after death. He had a battle with Ramsey and he won. 

 

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

Beric was restored several times and could still put up a respectable fight against arguably one of the best fighters in Westeros, the Hound. It doesn't seem those restored worry about digestion or circulation. No evidence of Cat or other undead eating/excreting, and Robert Strong is explicitly stated to not use the privy (might not be 100% analogous bc we don't know Qyburn's method for restoration). I understand the desire to nit-pick and point out GRRM hasn't constructed an airtight universe, but I've never read a fantasy writer who has done so. In fact, this is unreasonable - we don't have an airtight understanding of the nonfiction world. If you're not turned off by the idea of characters being restored and cheating death, worrying about undead internal organs is small bananas. The bigger problem for the series is how death has been cheapened, not how undead organs work.

I am not trying to make or require a medical case report for plastic surgery or reconstructive surgery.

I am just wondering how GRRM will take care of those fatal and deep knife cuts.

It is something he will need to mention a little bit during his resurrection.

Maybe when he and Val (or Dany or whoever) slept together and they would talk about this a little bit?

A good example will be Tyrion's nose or Cat's bone-exposed throat cut.

 

[Fire Eater]

3 hours ago, RobOsevens said:

Is Beric not a full scale resurrection? Or do you mean that he will come back changed somehow?

Just curious where are you getting this from?

 

I meant as in the person died, and then brought back to life completely healed and as they were before. Gandalf is an example. Beric OTOH was undead. His blood was flammable, and he was gradually losing his memory.  

I got this from an interview:

Quote

I do think that if you're bringing a character back, that a character has gone through death, that's a transformative experience. Even back in those days of Wonder Man and all that, I loved the fact that he died, and although I liked the character in later years, I wasn't so thrilled when he came back because that sort of undid the power of it. Much as I admire Tolkien, I once again always felt like Gandalf should have stayed dead. That was such an incredible sequence in Fellowship of the Ring when he faces the Balrog on the Khazad-dûm and he falls into the gulf, and his last words are, "Fly, you fools."

What power that had, how that grabbed me. And then he comes back as Gandalf the White, and if anything he's sort of improved. I never liked Gandalf the White as much as Gandalf the Grey, and I never liked him coming back. I think it would have been an even stronger story if Tolkien had left him dead.

My characters who come back from death are worse for wear. In some ways, they're not even the same characters anymore. The body may be moving, but some aspect of the spirit is changed or transformed, and they've lost something. One of the characters who has come back repeatedly from death is Beric Dondarrion, The Lightning Lord. Each time he's revived he loses a little more of himself. He was sent on a mission before his first death. He was sent on a mission to do something, and it's like, that's what he's clinging to. He's forgetting other things, he's forgetting who he is, or where he lived. He's forgotten the woman who he was once supposed to marry. Bits of his humanity are lost every time he comes back from death; he remembers that mission. His flesh is falling away from him, but this one thing, this purpose that he had is part of what's animating him and bringing him back to death. I think you see echoes of that with some of the other characters who have come back from death.

 

[OwloftheRainwood]

40 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

I think Jon will be very different from Beric and Cat.

He will not be damaged by death, he will only become better and be upgraded by this death (except a few holes and scars of course)

Sounds like a Jon Snow Fan :). Personally, I root for many of the characters, including JS and try not to pick favorites. That way I don't make assumptions based on favoring one character over another. There is no evidence Jon's restoration with be "different". There are a lot of prophecies in ASOIF and GRRM has a way of spinning them to turn out in a way that is unexpected. I can accept different kinds of resurrection based on different magic, wights seem different from Cat and Beric. There is nothing to indicate JS will be different from Beric or Cat based on the same Asshai magic, without appealing to "Hero" archetypes which are not really present in GRRM or personal affinity for the character.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Luckily Jon has his second life to protect his "consciousness" while he is out.

Beric and Cat weren´t skinchangers.

[RobOsevens]

8 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Luckily Jon has his second life to protect his "consciousness" while he is out.

Beric and Cat weren´t skinchangers.

Ya and he has Bran to guide him and prevent him from getting "lost" 

I think it more likely he returns with new knowledge from Bran and that is what changes him rather than losing some of himself like Beric has

[RobOsevens]

15 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Beric is obviously NOT a full scale resurrection. He loses a bit of himself each time Thoros brings him back.

I am equally curious to see the source of Fire Eater's claim.

The key point is what our best educated sources believe. Both Melisandre and Mirri Maz Duur claim that "only death can pay for life". Both were educated in Asshai. We have no valid reason to doubt them. No death paid for any of Beric's revivals. Beric does not undergo a true resurrection.

Jon's "resurrection" will most probably be a unique event in the story. We've seen many different types of undead - there is no reason to expect that we have seen every possible method of revival. Still, a combination of MMD's techniques that brought Drogo back (from a death due to infection-induced systemic necrosis) combined with warging (to preserve the consciousness) seems a likely path to bring back Jon. He will come back as Jon, not unJon, but will be changed by the experience.

The obvious parallel would be Paul Atreides in the spice trance, from Dune.

I strongly suspect we will get one or two Ghost chapters.

I was looking at Beric as a full scale resurrection because he dies and comes back but I see what you are saying and where you are going with this

[SevasTra82]

How do we even know Jon died in the first place?  Getting stabbed doesn't always equal death, especially in cold climates that slows down blood flow.

[Lord Varys]

Beric Dondarrion could easily be a pretty good foreshadowing of Jon Snow's eventual fate. Jon is set up as the guy whose mission it is to defend the Realm against the Others in the very chapter before he is assassinated. He says so himself, basically.

Beric had a very pitiful mission in comparison to that, but it was a mission still. The idea that Jon Snow could come back from the dead and eventually either play a crucial role in the saving of humanity or even defeat the Others singlehandedly (more unlikely) without paying the ultimate price in the process isn't very likely to me.

In fact, I expect that Jon Snow's blood is going to be flammable, too. After all, if all that Lightbringer talk is good for anything - and it is most likely not just in the books to confuse people - then the magical sword has to burn visibly and give off real heat, just Beric's burning sword did. Valyrian steel may contain 'fire magic' that gives it a similar power as obsidian (which is 'frozen fire') but it is not hot to a human's touch (like Lightbringer was and Nissa Nissa had been).

I personally don't like the introduction of resurrection in those books very much (although I really like the UnCat idea as an aspect of that). I'd never have killed Jon Snow if I were writing the books. But if George's likes the challenge to write from the POV of a magically changed human being/hero/whatever I'm looking forward to that.

In light of the stuff George tells us about Gandalf Jon should actually be less and twisted after his return, like Beric, not a character resembling Gandalf the White (which would be a Jon who goes on some sort of 'spirit quest' while he is 'dead' and then returns to life being fully aware who his real parents were and what his role in the story is). That would be far too easy. It certainly is part of mythological hero arcs and such, but George's opposition to the Gandalf-twist there shows that he doesn't like this kind of thing, and most likely does not intend to write something like that.

The same goes for Jon not actually being dead after the assassination. Jon's death scene is remarkably different from all the other cliffhangers indicating a character death in the sense that it is clear he actually received mortal wounds. If George wanted us not to believe that Jon Snow died he would have changed the chapter. He would have introduced an element to keep it ambiguous, like him witnessing some people trying to rescue him, or him actually be rescued before he lost consciousness. In such a scenario he would still be dying but people like Melisandre might be close by who could actually use their magic to save him before he died.

But there is nothing like that in the chapter.

If I had to guess then Jon's death will be one of his main lessons on his way to become (one of) the main heroes fighting against the Others and winter itself. He did not get killed because he sought death, or challenged death, or intended to transcend death. Hell, he didn't even want to find something out about himself. He just made a glaring mistake and greatly misjudged the political situation he found himself in and his role and importance in it.

The conclusion he'll draw from that is that nothing is as important as the mission, certainly not Arya or family or honor or anything or anyone. Important is that the people of Westeros survive. How many is not important. If he has to sacrifice the wildlings, the Night's Watch, Stannis and his family, the Northmen, the entire North, half of Westeros so be it. Important is that the Others do not succeed and somebody survives to rebuild everything. That should be his mission as he understands it (especially with such a pitiful force as he has right now, in combination with the fact that the dragons are still half a world away).

I do indeed think that Jon's soul/personality will not go through the same transformation as Beric's or Catelyn's (although that wouldn't be that bad - Beric most likely was more or less himself after his first return) but an extended stay in Ghost's can cause a problem of dehumanization as well - especially for such an untrained skinchanger as Jon Snow.

Jon's body most certainly will be transformed magically in some fashion, possibly becoming a 'fire wight' or more like the bodies of Victarion or Melisandre (if she is no 'fire wight'). That isn't necessarily a problem. We know that especially Mel can to pretty much everything a normal woman can do, and being so hot as she is certainly would be an advantage in this environment. And even Coldhands is still a pretty decent guy. His body may be undead, but aside from that he could easily be exactly the same guy as before.

This transformation most likely will have its effects on Jon's personality and the people surrounding him, but that must be the entire point of this plot line. If George didn't want to change Jon Snow he wouldn't have killed him.

And even if his body didn't die for some reason, the outcome will still be the same. There will be a magical transformation of the body during the healing spell, and Jon will have spent perhaps too much time in Ghost. The whole metaphysical discussion of what it means to die and so on isn't really necessary. Unlike Beric and Cat Jon won't die in any ultimate sense because he can cheat death in a very real sense as a skinchanger.

[RobOsevens]

Great post Lord Varys

[OwloftheRainwood]

8 hours ago, SevasTra82 said:

How do we even know Jon died in the first place?  Getting stabbed doesn't always equal death, especially in cold climates that slows down blood flow.

I agree. We don't know with 100% certainty, most people are assuming that Jon is dead. It's a safe bet given most people won't survive 4 knife stabs to the abdomen but in the end it's just another assumption of the many, many assumptions fans make.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

I agree. We don't know with 100% certainty, most people are assuming that Jon is dead. It's a safe bet given most people won't survive 4 knife stabs to the abdomen but in the end it's just another assumption of the many, many assumptions fans make.

The main reason to assume that he is dead is not just the number of the stabs and the place where they were placed (the neck wound may have cut an artery, the stomach wound alone should be fatal if it is treated with conventional medicine, not to mention the stab between the shoulder blades which could have injured the spine, pierced the lungs, etc.) but also the fact that it is implied that the assassins weren't yet done with Jon Snow when he lost consciousness.

This is a Caesar-like assassination scene, and Caesar wasn't just stabbed by four blades, either. In that sense I really don't think that people like me who assume Jon Snow is dead/dying right now offscreen are mislead by the author. His body most likely will be dead, his soul/spirit should remain for quite some time, and if people come around to resurrect/restore it he'll be back.

Reviving a dead/dying body doesn't seem to be a big deal in Westeros. The Others do it on a regular basis, the kiss of fire can do it as well, and even Mirri Maz Duur and Qyburn pulled it off (Gregor Clegane seems to be dead right now).

In light of the fact that pretty much no one should have a huge interest in bringing Jon Snow back to life my guess is that it will essentially be some sort of accident - Melisandre giving him the kiss of fire during his funeral, resulting in the restoration of his body. The trouble afterwards will be reunited body and spirit, especially if Ghost happened to leave Castle Black during the time in-between...