Will we get an unJon POV?

[OwloftheRainwood]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

The main reason to assume that he is dead is not just the number of the stabs and the place where they were placed (the neck wound may have cut an artery, the stomach wound alone should be fatal if it is treated with conventional medicine, not to mention the stab between the shoulder blades which could have injured the spine, pierced the lungs, etc.) but also the fact that it is implied that the assassins weren't yet done with Jon Snow when he lost consciousness.

This is a Caesar-like assassination scene, and Caesar wasn't just stabbed by four blades, either. In that sense I really don't think that people like me who assume Jon Snow is dead/dying right now offscreen are mislead by the author. His body most likely will be dead, his soul/spirit should remain for quite some time, and if people come around to resurrect/restore it he'll be back.

Reviving a dead/dying body doesn't seem to be a big deal in Westeros. The Others do it on a regular basis, the kiss of fire can do it as well, and even Mirri Maz Duur and Qyburn pulled it off (Gregor Clegane seems to be dead right now).

In light of the fact that pretty much no one should have a huge interest in bringing Jon Snow back to life my guess is that it will essentially be some sort of accident - Melisandre giving him the kiss of fire during his funeral, resulting in the restoration of his body. The trouble afterwards will be reunited body and spirit, especially if Ghost happened to leave Castle Black during the time in-between...

Yeah, I get where you're going...but the actual wounds are much more concrete than speculating about the motives or modus operandi of the assassins. I disagree with MMD though, she didn't just barely "pull if off" she was trained in multiple disciplines and highly skilled. If she wanted to bring Drogo back, she could've, but she reveals to Dany her real motivations afterward and gets burned alive.

[Lord Varys]

31 minutes ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

Yeah, I get where you're going...but the actual wounds are much more concrete than speculating about the motives or modus operandi of the assassins. I disagree with MMD though, she didn't just barely "pull if off" she was trained in multiple disciplines and highly skilled. If she wanted to bring Drogo back, she could've, but she reveals to Dany her real motivations afterward and gets burned alive.

We don't know the exact amount of Mirri's skills but I agree that she most likely was able to restore Drogo's full health. My point was that we don't really know whether Drogo was dead when the spell took effect. Could be that she just healed his wounds and never actually resurrected him, and deliberately destroyed his mind in the process. But if this was the case, we don't know for sure if she could actually bring back a dead person unchanged. Mirri did not necessarily do a resurrection spell.

[OwloftheRainwood]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This transformation most likely will have its effects on Jon's personality and the people surrounding him, but that must be the entire point of this plot line. If George didn't want to change Jon Snow he wouldn't have killed him.

And even if his body didn't die for some reason, the outcome will still be the same. There will be a magical transformation of the body during the healing spell, and Jon will have spent perhaps too much time in Ghost. The whole metaphysical discussion of what it means to die and so on isn't really necessary. Unlike Beric and Cat Jon won't die in any ultimate sense because he can cheat death in a very real sense as a skinchanger.

You're spot on re Lady Stoneheart, Beric, Jon's mission and resurrection generally in ASOIF. Your argument that Jon will change is refreshing given all the Jon fans arguing that he will romantically be "different" and remain unchanged because he's a "hero" - it just doesn't match the style/writing. Jon is no less, or maybe more prone to oathbreaking than the average Crow. Like Arya he's still stuck back in Winterfell, and motivated by the past, not the mission. It's so obvious as you point out - Jon has to change otherwise he wouldn't have been killed by GRRM in the first place!

His resurrection will likely be complemented by some sort of skin-changing, Ghost is the best candidate. Funny to argue metaphysical discussion "isn't really necessary" and then make fine distinctions between "ultimate death" vs skin-changing death. My point that JS won't be "different" means that he will change like Lady Stoneheart and Beric, if not in the same way(s). As a skinchanger (very untrained) he'll be able to come back, but he won't be the same naive, politically tone-deaf boy. For the good, he'll understand the mission (hopefully) and for the not so good, he'll be hardened (this is speculation). I think we agree on the basic point that Jon will change.

[OwloftheRainwood]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The same goes for Jon not actually being dead after the assassination. Jon's death scene is remarkably different from all the other cliffhangers indicating a character death in the sense that it is clear he actually received mortal wounds. If George wanted us not to believe that Jon Snow died he would have changed the chapter. He would have introduced an element to keep it ambiguous, like him witnessing some people trying to rescue him, or him actually be rescued before he lost consciousness. In such a scenario he would still be dying but people like Melisandre might be close by who could actually use their magic to save him before he died.

More agreement. A salient situation to compare is when Brienne and Pod get lynched by BwB and she cries out at the last minute...no such literary device in Jon's assassination that I recall.

[OwloftheRainwood]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But if this was the case, we don't know for sure if she could actually bring back a dead person unchanged.

I don't think anyone gets to come back unchanged. MMD could've brought back Drogo to "full health" if she wanted but I don't think anybody comes back without changes. Drogo could've avoided the situation by following MMD's medical advice but he didn't - giving her the ability to not only be rid of Drogo, but also leveraging Dany into sacrificing Rhaego for no reason. It was about avenging the Lamb Men and preventing the "Stallion who Mounts the World" from being born.

[Cas Stark]

Drogo wasn't dead. He was dying.  Big difference.

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

Funny to argue metaphysical discussion "isn't really necessary" and then make fine distinctions between "ultimate death" vs skin-changing death.

The point there is that many people argue, quite correctly in my opinion, that a real return from death, body and soul, would be a very severe experience, possibly changing the character of a person completely. In light of the fact on George's stand on resurrections that makes even more sense. This is why I think it is quite likely that Jon is not going to die in this ultimate sense that his spirit dies and is restored/comes back again (which is what happened to both Beric and Catelyn).

However, I also don't like the idea that Beric and Catelyn no longer are who they used to be. Beric wasn't so much different from you average demented elderly, and Catelyn's actual state of mind has still to be properly assessed (something that Brienne and/or Jaime will most likely do in future chapters).

I find it that many people underestimate the potential a character like Catelyn still has for the overall story - especially if she remembers very well who she was and what she is doing. I mean, just think about the power of her realizing who and what Littlefinger is and what he has done to her family and her daughter. Or Catelyn finally finding out that her children, Robb aside, are all still alive and she is finally reunited with them. That could be both very sad/disturbing but also very touching. Presumably Catelyn isn't going to more twisted than Arya by the end of the series.

All of that is only going to work if she retains a good portion of her humanity and isn't changed completely mentally.

10 minutes ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

I don't think anyone gets to come back unchanged. MMD could've brought back Drogo to "full health" if she wanted but I don't think anybody comes back without changes. Drogo could've avoided the situation by following MMD's medical advice but he didn't - giving her the ability to not only be rid of Drogo, but also leveraging Dany into sacrificing Rhaego for no reason. It was about avenging the Lamb Men and preventing the "Stallion who Mounts the World" from being born.

That is actually completely open to interpretation. The poultice could already have been poisoned. Rhaego's sacrifice may actually have been necessary for Mirri's spell, regardless what it did. And it may actually be that Mirri even needed Dany's (silent) agreement for that.

[OwloftheRainwood]

23 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Drogo wasn't dead. He was dying.  Big difference.

Touche, thanks for that correction. Dying does not equal death. I'm not sure that changes the overall argument, though. If you accept the premise that MMD was highly trained/skilled doesn't it indicate that it would've been even easier to for her to heal Drogo than resurrect him? I could be overestimating her but my reading of the character indicates she was carrying out her own agenda, not magically/medically incompetent.

[Cas Stark]

4 minutes ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

Touche, thanks for that correction. Dying does not equal death. I'm not sure that changes the overall argument, though. If you accept the premise that MMD was highly trained/skilled doesn't it indicate that it would've been even easier to for her to heal Drogo than resurrect him? I could be overestimating her but my reading of the character indicates she was carrying out her own agenda, not magically incompetent.

He was past healing, that's why she told Dany that death would be cleaner.  When Dany refused to listen, MMD decided to bring Drogo back as a "horse" she never intended him to be anything more than he was...  But, I am not at all convinced that MMD possessed the knowledge to resurrect a dead person, and since Dany was specifically told to stay out of the tent, I think Rhaego's life force being swapped out or dragon eggs [which MMD also probably didn't notice] was a total random fluke of magic and not even MMD's original intent.  That's my take.

[OwloftheRainwood]

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The poultice could already have been poisoned.

Except for this I agree with pretty much everything you said. I thought of this possibility too, but there are a lot of "could haves"...Since it wasn't stated and GRRM likes poison I don't see enough evidence to indicate that it was poisoned. It's neither here nor there, we just don't know. I find it unlikely.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, OwloftheRainwood said:

Accept for this I agree with pretty much everything you said. I thought of this possibility too, but there are a lot of "could haves"...Since it wasn't stated and GRRM likes poison I don't see enough evidence to indicate that it was poisoned. It's neither here nor there, we just don't know. I find it unlikely.

I don't know, too. But in light of the fact that we don't have any reason to trust it is difficult to say what she did or what she didn't do. Maybe she helped Drogo, maybe she didn't. Perhaps she poisoned the poultice, perhaps it could have worked if she hadn't added stuff that made it very uncomfortable, perhaps Drogo just fucked things up and she was sincere at first. We have no way of knowing and no way to ever find out.

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

He was past healing, that's why she told Dany that death would be cleaner.  When Dany refused to listen, MMD decided to bring Drogo back as a "horse" she never intended him to be anything more than he was...  But, I am not at all convinced that MMD possessed the knowledge to resurrect a dead person, and since Dany was specifically told to stay out of the tent, I think Rhaego's life force being swapped out or dragon eggs [which MMD also probably didn't notice] was a total random fluke of magic and not even MMD's original intent.  That's my take.

Hm. Never thought about the possibility that she was actually sincere talking about the horse. Could be. But warning about the tent clearly is weird if staying out of the tent would have protected Rhaego and she intended to take his life as a sacrifice. But then, the fact that Dany went into (early) labor could be a hint the spell could and did reach her outside as easily as inside the tent.

In my opinion, 'only death can pay for life' isn't exactly a good wisdom. A very specific death, Drogo's, by the hand of Daenerys herself (and possibly Viserys' and Rhaego's deaths, too) were the ingredients for the spell that hatched the dragon eggs. Not Mirri Maz Duur. It is Drogo's spirit who cracks the eggs with his whip if we can believe Dany's own eyes. And there is really no reason not to.

Azor Ahai had to kill his Nissa Nissa, too, to get his magic sword. Other people had 'life force', too, but the spell needs a sacrifice. Just some random dead guy isn't enough. Dany gave up the three people closest to her, and she got three dragons. Azor Ahai supposedly gave up his beloved wife, and he got a magic sword.

[Cas Stark]

I've never thought MMD  poisoned the poultice, why bother telling him no milk of the poppy and all the rest of the directions if she was poisoning him?  Plus, something that burns is consistent w/an astringent type of herb which sounds like what you would use to prevent infection.

But, it's a mystery why MMD would take credit for killing Rhaego if she had not intended it.

I strongly dislike the idea of a dead Jon who is resurrected.  If the author is consistent with his own statements about resurrection, then Jon's POV would have to change significantly in tone to reflect that he's different and changed.  His soul going into Ghost and thus preventing him from being affected would be a lame ass dodge, according to me.  LOL.  This is why I've thought he wasn't going to be dead, almost dead and in a coma, and then healed by Mel.  But, according to HBO, this theory looks wrong, which is a shame as I like this theory better than Jon the zombie...a resurrected Jon also almost guarantees he will die for good before the end, which also, according to me, will suck.

[Lord Varys]

25 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I strongly dislike the idea of a dead Jon who is resurrected.  If the author is consistent with his own statements about resurrection, then Jon's POV would have to change significantly in tone to reflect that he's different and changed.  His soul going into Ghost and thus preventing him from being affected would be a lame ass dodge, according to me.  LOL.  This is why I've thought he wasn't going to be dead, almost dead and in a coma, and then healed by Mel.  But, according to HBO, this theory looks wrong, which is a shame as I like this theory better than Jon the zombie...a resurrected Jon also almost guarantees he will die for good before the end, which also, according to me, will suck.

Well, but the Ghost thing was all over the place from the very moment the concept of the second life was introduced in Varamyr's Prologue. The entire concept is there for Jon Snow (or another skinchanger character) to be able to die and come back, presumably.

If Jon is going to be the main opponent of the Others and the character crucial in winning the final victory he most likely will die in the process. This story is not going to let the guy who saves everybody get away alive.

In fact, I'd actually expect a resurrected Jon to survive the series than somebody who gets to the final battle pretty much unscathed. The idea of a dead guy trying to learn to live again in whatever way he can could be a much more interesting ending than said guy's issues being easily resolved by him dying in battle.

[Cas Stark]

He will definitely warg into Ghost, but having that somehow save him from the cost of resurrection, would be kind of BS. I'm on board w/a resurrected Jon surviving and the blonde savior person dying instead.  Totally on board w/that, LOL. But, there 's a strong possibility GRRM is going to kill every character I still care about....

[Lord Lannister]

Am I the only one who doesn't much care? Jon's POVs were boring when he was alive, would being dead making them any more interesting beyond the initial novelty factor?

[OwloftheRainwood]

17 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Ghost and thus preventing him from being affected would be a lame ass dodge, according to me.

I totally agree, very lame.

[OwloftheRainwood]

18 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

He was past healing, that's why she told Dany that death would be cleaner.  When Dany refused to listen, MMD decided to bring Drogo back as a "horse" she never intended him to be anything more than he was...  But, I am not at all convinced that MMD possessed the knowledge to resurrect a dead person

She said death would be cleaner, but that does not preclude her having the skills to bring someone back. Without so much training (or faith) Thoros can raise people from the dead so...I don't think that line of argument works. I also prefaced the comment by asking "if you accept the premises..." so if you simply disagree we're just going in circles.

 

[OwloftheRainwood]

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Hm. Never thought about the possibility that she was actually sincere talking about the horse. Could be. But warning about the tent clearly is weird if staying out of the tent would have protected Rhaego and she intended to take his life as a sacrifice. But then, the fact that Dany went into (early) labor could be a hint the spell could and did reach her outside as easily as inside the tent.

I disagree with Cas on that point. I don't think she was sincere. MMD's backstory and her own confession demonstrated motivation for revenge all along. To argue she was genuine runs counter to more concrete evidence.

[OwloftheRainwood]

On 2/4/2016 at 7:25 PM, Lord Lannister said:

Am I the only one who doesn't much care? Jon's POVs were boring when he was alive, would being dead making them any more interesting beyond the initial novelty factor?

If you don't care, why post? I'm no Jon fan either. I did not find Jon's personality very compelling, he has the same weaknesses as Ned in terms of political tone deafness and naivety while being not quite so honorable - willing to oath-break multiple times. At the same time, it looks like he's going to be an important character. I don't like Tywin, but he's a great political operator and an important patriarch. Without him, I think we see the Lannisters decline pretty quickly.