Magnetism, Migration, and Mystery

[hiemal]

A couple of the cases of dogs barking in the night that currently occupy my thoughts in ASoIaF are the force of magnetism and the role it may or may not play in the seeming lack of both sophisticated navigation and the migration of various animals to escape the brutal, unnatural winters.

I don't recall any compelling evidence of magnetism as a utility, in making compasses for example. I think there is some evidence for the force (didn't Bran see Aurora Borealis  in his vision of the Heart of Winter) at large but none of its being taken advantage of by humans.

Which strikes to my second issue, migration. How the animals and plants of Planetos have managed to adapt to the unnatural seasons has always been the factor most likely to me cry "bullshit!" despite my willingness to suspend so much disbelief elsewhere. I could be reading too much into this, but I can't remember any mention of any species of birds as being described as migratory at all. With Autumn past there should have been some mention of flights of geese streaming down to Dorne. Perhaps it simply hasn't come up, but perhaps also there is something more going on here.

It could be that the two issues are tied together, and the force of electromagnetism that functions on Earth is very different on Planteos, either post-disaster or since always, and it is useless as a navagational aid for either sailors or birds.

 

[Lion of the West]

I've also been wondering a little about this but I think that its mostly that GRRM don't want to drown the readers in endless detailed observations which may or may not have an actual impact on the story.

[hiemal]

That thought had crossed my mind, of course, but I abandoned it as boring and not-at-all-fun.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Huh, good noticing.

If the disaster that messed up the seasons affected the axial tilt of the planet, would that also affect the magnetism? Like maybe magnetism does exist but there simply aren't any "poles" for compasses or birds to follow?

That is beyond my sciencey knowledge but feels like an interesting possibility.

[hiemal]

I don't think it would, ordinarily- as I understand it that is due to the rotation of the planet's liquid metal core?- but it does seem a tantalizing possibility that it is a deliberate exclusion on GRRM's part.

I have always suspected that the force(s) of magic are either not native to the world or that mankind isn't. One or the other. Man's nature just seems ill-suited for magic. Men can call it up, with blood, and make pacts with it, with blood, and even shape and direct it, with (you guessed it) blood and it is dire- a blade without a hilt, as the Horned Lord said.

The possibility that a fundamental force like electromagnetism could be partially subverted or even overwritten by some otherworldly intrusion, while bound up with a lot tinfoil, is one I've tossed around.

[Lordsteve666]

Well the most obvious example of an animal "migrating" is surely the ravens used for communication?

How would a bird be able to find its way from The Wall to King's Landing without any sort of guide, even racing pigeons in real life will use the earth's magnetic field to help them navigate when they can't see visual clues.

I would guess the ravens use visual clues (e.g. rivers, forests, roads, coastlines etc) but they would probably also be like our pigeons in that they can sense a magnetic field and so have a way of "knowing" which way is north/south so base their directions off.

[hiemal]

11 hours ago, Lordsteve666 said:

Well the most obvious example of an animal "migrating" is surely the ravens used for communication?

How would a bird be able to find its way from The Wall to King's Landing without any sort of guide, even racing pigeons in real life will use the earth's magnetic field to help them navigate when they can't see visual clues.

I would guess the ravens use visual clues (e.g. rivers, forests, roads, coastlines etc) but they would probably also be like our pigeons in that they can sense a magnetic field and so have a way of "knowing" which way is north/south so base their directions off.

That was my initial thought as well, but the ravens seem to be altered from the birds that we know. They could be using memory to navigate, or even some ability that we know nothing about.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

11 hours ago, Lordsteve666 said:

Well the most obvious example of an animal "migrating" is surely the ravens used for communication?

How would a bird be able to find its way from The Wall to King's Landing without any sort of guide, even racing pigeons in real life will use the earth's magnetic field to help them navigate when they can't see visual clues.

I would guess the ravens use visual clues (e.g. rivers, forests, roads, coastlines etc) but they would probably also be like our pigeons in that they can sense a magnetic field and so have a way of "knowing" which way is north/south so base their directions off.

 

19 minutes ago, hiemal said:

That was my initial thought as well, but the ravens seem to be altered from the birds that we know. They could be using memory to navigate, or even some ability that we know nothing about.

 

Based on the wargy origin story of the ravens, and the fact that Martin made them ravens and not pigeons, I do tend to think that they tap into some force besides magnetism. A raven is much smarter than a pigeon, so the ability to memorize landscape would be higher...and they may have some instinct for figuring out direction by weirwood net or something.

Could be magnetism, but IMO there is room to doubt that.

[Evolett]

Interesting OP – I’ve been pondering this question as well, mainly because I suspect navigation might be an underlying hidden theme in the story. Leaf for example says she travelled the length and breadth of Westeros for 200 years. Similarly, Lomas Longstrider travelled far and wide, noting important natural and man-made landmarks on the way.

In my essay on Earth magic, I propose that the Songs of the Earth sung by the Children constitute a kind of mental cartography, similar to the Songlines of indigenous Australian people. These folk wandered the Australian continent, noting landmarks and memorizing routes in the form of songs. Since the CotF have no written language, this would have been a good way to navigate. It’s conceivable that they relied on geomagnetism to find their way and simply recorded their routes in the form of song. We are told the Children of ancient times lived close to nature, hunting and living off the land; they dressed in leaves and bark etc. They live very differently now – holed up in a dark forbidding cave north of the Wall. Bat skeletons hang in the cave and of course, these use echo-location to navigate. Now, if we assume that something did affect the earth’s axial tilt in the past, then the bats present a clue. Their presence suggests the Children may have used bats as a replacement for their lost ability to navigate via geomagnetism.

 

Let’s spin this further: at some point the Children discovered the possibility of using ravens for this purpose but ravens don’t appear on any list of animals capable of navigating in this manner so I think there’s a twist to this. I think the children solved this problem by skinchanging the ravens, enabling them to navigate through the ravens by sight. Taking into account the ‘shadows’ of past children remaining in the ravens then explains these bird’s ability to act as homing pigeons. We can postulate that the spirit Children serve to guide them.

But the question is, why could this be important? Frankly, I think it is the basis of the ‘blood of the dragon’. Dragonriders bond ‘naturally’ with their dragons; riders need no saddles, bridles, whips or other means of control or guidance. There seems to be some kind of symbiosis that makes it possible to steer the dragon to a given destination. I can only speculate, but my feeling is blood and iron play an important role in the process. Birds have magnetoreceptors in their beaks or eyes, which act as sensors for the Earth’s magnetic field. Receptors are either of magnetite or maghemite, both iron oxides. Red blood cells contain haemoglobin, also a compound containing iron, so we have mutual features here. So perhaps the ability to control dragons is based on the composition of the blood of both dragon and rider, specifically the iron compound component, which might actually be able to orient according to the current poles of the planet. I also think the eyes are important to this process, that they possibly pick up a certain wavelength of electromagnetic radiation, within the red spectrum of wavelength – this would explain the fire. Actually, I suspect I’m not far from the truth but never added these thoughts to my analysis for lack of more conclusive evidence.

[hiemal]

I love the lines of your speculation! Particularly the thoughts on iron (given the high content in dragonbone) and in the eyes -I've been following a rabbit trail of my own based on the two non-human varieties of eyes; those that are like a cat's eyes (CotF, Lengi) and those that are like solid orbs of color (the Others, dragons).

As for the Songlines- totally new to me. Making song of their speech and maps of their songs!

[Evolett]

5 hours ago, hiemal said:

I love the lines of your speculation! Particularly the thoughts on iron (given the high content in dragonbone) and in the eyes -I've been following a rabbit trail of my own based on the two non-human varieties of eyes; those that are like a cat's eyes (CotF, Lengi) and those that are like solid orbs of color (the Others, dragons).

As for the Songlines- totally new to me. Making song of their speech and maps of their songs!

Thanks. And of course - I forgot all about the high iron content in dragonbone! The CotF cat's eyes enable night-vision - basically another another theme of navigating, relating to the dark. There's definitely something up with navigation. 

I must admit - I had a little cry after reading about native Australians and their songlines. It's so amazing and so awful that their culture has been more or less destroyed. There do remain a few clans who still practice it though. 

[hiemal]

4 hours ago, Evolett said:

Thanks. And of course - I forgot all about the high iron content in dragonbone! The CotF cat's eyes enable night-vision - basically another another theme of navigating, relating to the dark. There's definitely something up with navigation. 

I must admit - I had a little cry after reading about native Australians and their songlines. It's so amazing and so awful that their culture has been more or less destroyed. There do remain a few clans who still practice it though. 

It is an area in which my knowledge of myth and legend is pretty limited- this inspires me to dig deeper. Any suggestions?

[Evolett]

You'll find some information on songlines here  - with further links to follow. 

I spotted this interesting quote yesterday and think it's relevant to this investigation. It concerns Lysa's secret letter to Catelyn:

Quote

 

“Inside was a fine new lens for the observatory, from Myr by the look of it. The lenscrafters of Myr are without equal.” .....

Maester Luwin said. “Clearly, there was more to this than the seeming.”

Under the heavy weight of her furs, Catelyn shivered. “A lens is an instrument to help us see.”

 “I found the true message concealed within a false bottom when I dismantled the box the lens had come in, but it is not for my eyes.”

Ned held out his hand. “Let me have it, then.”

Luwin did not stir. “Pardons, my lord. The message is not for you either. It is marked for the eyes of the Lady Catelyn, and her alone.

 

 

So we have a myrish lens, which enables one to see things far away. It's placed in an observatory, usually at the top of a building, from which one can view things far and wide. Ravens fly high and see the world from above. This myrish lens with its message is marked for the eyes of Cat alone. There's a lot of emphasis on the eyes and on Cat, recalling cat-eyes and the CotF. The true message is a stand-in for the true tongue in which the CotF sing their songs. It's written in a private language which recalls the secret language of ravens. 

The message is also concealed, which evokes the shadows of Children concealed in living ravens. 

Also of interest - the box is presumably delivered by someone in the King's party. It's not delivered by raven, indicating that this marks a beginning, offers support for the idea that the use of ravens was a later 'invention'. The main purpose of the myrish lens is to observe the stars - and the stars are useful in navigation. It all fits. 

Have your studies regarding eyes thrown up anything interesting? I'm curious

 

 

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

You'll find some information on songlines here  - with further links to follow. 

I spotted this interesting quote yesterday and think it's relevant to this investigation. It concerns Lysa's secret letter to Catelyn:

 

So we have a myrish lens, which enables one to see things far away. It's placed in an observatory, usually at the top of a building, from which one can view things far and wide. Ravens fly high and see the world from above. This myrish lens with its message is marked for the eyes of Cat alone. There's a lot of emphasis on the eyes and on Cat, recalling cat-eyes and the CotF. The true message is a stand-in for the true tongue in which the CotF sing their songs. It's written in a private language which recalls the secret language of ravens. 

The message is also concealed, which evokes the shadows of Children concealed in living ravens. 

Also of interest - the box is presumably delivered by someone in the King's party. It's not delivered by raven, indicating that this marks a beginning, offers support for the idea that the use of ravens was a later 'invention'. The main purpose of the myrish lens is to observe the stars - and the stars are useful in navigation. It all fits. 

Have your studies regarding eyes thrown up anything interesting? I'm curious

 

 

Talk about synchronicity- I recently started a reread project and just finished the same passage! I was focused of the lens as something that slows and distorts light, thinking of prisms and rainbows and totally missing the cat's eye connection. Great catch!

Regarding the songlines- I love the imagery of song and dance used as a tool of navigation, and if the CotF use the Song of World as a similar tool it is kind of an exciting possibility- working navigation into the fabric of speech itself instead of particular stories and songs, particularly in light of the lack of creation myths that have been provided to us.

As far as petrosomatoglyphs are concerned, the big daddy of all the ones in Westeros seems to be God's Eye. That could be significant.

[Evolett]

This may sound weird, but I've speculated on the God's Eye as a kind of central power-collecting plant, one that's capable of picking up radiation from the atmosphere or perhaps the light of the stars and I'm actually beginning to find clues that this may be so. The physics of it all, perhaps optics in particular is probably one of the keys to finding out how this could work - studying lenses and prisms is a good thing. Prisms - pyramids are also important - think of the pyramids in the Slaver Bay cities and the idea that they concentrate energy in some way - preserving the pharaohs and all that.  

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

This may sound weird, but I've speculated on the God's Eye as a kind of central power-collecting plant, one that's capable of picking up radiation from the atmosphere or perhaps the light of the stars and I'm actually beginning to find clues that this may be so. The physics of it all, perhaps optics in particular is probably one of the keys to finding out how this could work - studying lenses and prisms is a good thing. Prisms - pyramids are also important - think of the pyramids in the Slaver Bay cities and the idea that they concentrate energy in some way - preserving the pharaohs and all that.  

I like this idea. Spitballing with it, if I may, what if the entire weirnet is physcially connected in a vast root network and the ring on the Isle of Faces were a kind of magical lens?

[Evolett]

I can see this being the case. A network of underground cables interconnecting the 'power plant'. Many believe in the weirwood network. And the lens - a vast all-seeing eye, but also a James Bond type Ikarus sun-collector / radiation-collector. I like it. 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

I can see this being the case. A network of underground cables interconnecting the 'power plant'. Many believe in the weirwood network. And the lens - a vast all-seeing eye, but also a James Bond type Ikarus sun-collector / radiation-collector. I like it. 

Always great to see you around, Evolett!

I think in this case you may be getting deeper into the science aspect of things than Martin likely is, but I do like the idea of the God's Eye as a sort of foci or center for the weirwood net, though IMO it's more likely a foci of magic rather than radiation energy. But a weirwood-net foci of magic does seem to be supported by what we know of the Isle of Faces. Perhaps all of the dead greenseers can concentrate their presence there or something.

[hiemal]

Out of something almost like perversity I would like to put forward the idea that such a lens could be used not so much to focus incoming energy, which could be gathered through every leaf on every WW tree in Westeros, but to send it forth coherently and aimed exactly where someone wants it to go.

[Evolett]

1 hour ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Always great to see you around, Evolett!

I think in this case you may be getting deeper into the science aspect of things than Martin likely is, but I do like the idea of the God's Eye as a sort of foci or center for the weirwood net, though IMO it's more likely a foci of magic rather than radiation energy. But a weirwood-net foci of magic does seem to be supported by what we know of the Isle of Faces. Perhaps all of the dead greenseers can concentrate their presence there or something.

 

Hey Blind Beth, nice to see you too!
It’s funny how we all claim to know what George would or wouldn’t write, but heck, I’m guilty too and I assure you, he’s embedded plenty of deep science in the story