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Sunday of the New Martyrs: Soviet Persecution of Theists


Ser Scot A Ellison

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1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Do you think me taking my children to chuch is Child Abuse?

Har!  When I saw this thread, I bet myself that you'd ask this very question because it never fails.  Granted, I lost my own bet because I figured you'd wait until at least the second page to ask the obligatory "am i a child abuser" question.  I think last time I was even the one who finally agreed you were a child abuser just so you could stop asking and bathe in that persecution complex for which you seemed to be yearning.

I think you well know that simply thinking something -such as thinking some behavior is abusive to children- doesn't somehow imply that a violent revolt is on the horizon in order to persecute the poor christians and turn them all into beloved martyrs.  Plenty of people think spanking is child abuse, but there aren't swathes of them leading violent attacks on spankers.  Some people believe abortion is murder but only a tiny majority of this crowd are resorting to violence in order to prevent women from exerting control over their bodies and health care decisions.  

That being said, I think atheists (and sometimes secular society as a whole) have much more to fear from aggressive theists than theists have from the occasional aggressive atheist.  For example, it took until 2015 for marriage equality because opponents cited religious doctrine as justifiable cause for discrimination.  While it's possible that education, advances in science, or general influence might decrease the number of religious adherents and churches, as long as the US remains reasonably democratic and mostly secular, you probably aren't going to get the persecution you suggested in the OP.  

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MC,

It has clearly happened before, why is it impossible for others who hate religion, for whatever reason, to be swayed by the effectiveness of the Soviet "program to eliminate religion"?

Dr.P,

Is teaching your children about your faith and taking them to church with you "religious indoctrintation"?  If not, what is?  If you believe "religious indocterination" is child abuse would you support taking children from parents who do engage in "religious indoctrination".  If not, why not?

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17 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

MC,

It has clearly happened before, why is it impossible for others who hate religion, for whatever reason, to be swayed by the effectiveness of the Soviet "program to eliminate religion"?

Oh for fucks sake, scot. 

You sound just like the gun nuts talking about nazis and Hitler equating them to modern America and obama but with different dreams of persecution. 

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Dawkins considers religion to be a malevolent influence, yes.

The Soviet reasoning was rather different. For them, the Church wasn't simply malevolent, it was also a wing of the old regime - it instilled into people the idea that we shouldn't seek social change on earth, because there's paradise in heaven to look forward to. Religion had a history of being apologists for the old ruling class (*cough* Spain *cough*), so it had to be suppressed as much as possible.

In short, that sort of religious suppression can really only be associated with revolution. Dawkins isn't about to overthrow a government any time soon.

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RBPL,

But Dawikins would call religious education of children child abuse.  If Governments agree with his assessment and Start taking kids from homes what do you think the reaction will be?

If people push back, as I can only imagine they would to such actions how would government respond?

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2 hours ago, Gears of the Beast said:

 

You wonder whether "aggressive atheists" like people who think indoctrination is child abuse will be tempted by the Soviet Union murdering a bunch of religious people. The fuck planet are you living on? The bizarre Christian fetish for persecution continues unabated. 

I normally think you push a bit too far despite that I broadly agree with you, but in this thread we are 100% on the same page.  I mean you'd think we could wait for our countries to not be fucking dominated by the Christian viewpoint, where their beliefs are exalted, before they started freaking out about how we are going throw them in gulags.

I'm also with Solo in being very sceptical of that 12m-20m figure, I suspect it's counting every single person who could possibly have counted as a Christian regardless of why they were killed.  And possibly then some.

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Do you think me taking my children to chuch is Child Abuse?

Teaching your children that homosexuality is a sin as an objective truth is.  Teaching them that you hold to a belief, but that it's merely a belief you hold and there is no proof of it, and it's their choice what to believe is a different story.  Don't try and act like it's not possible to do this, because plenty of atheists have to do exactly this to still allow their children to choose faith if they want, but some Christians seem to think it's indoctrination or martyrdom. 

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Persecutors of theists provide a very necessarry and under appreciated role to Christians who have a natural longing to be percieved as victims. But instead of being grateful to their enablers we constantly see the Christians turn and bite (like rabid dogs) the very helpful hand that provides them their self fulfilling, unifying status.

I cant speak for Russia, but in America this persecution complex is like a glue holding congregations together. I would think Christians should be grateful to atheists who provide them that crucial rallying focus on an "out group".

john-stewart.jpg

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7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

DWS,

Christians were a majority in Russia prior to the Revolution.  FYI.

And?  What is your point? 

Oh the poor Christians. 

God damn it. You have to be fucking kidding.  

Russia then vs the rest of the world now is a long way away. Get off it already. 

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The Soviet authorities attitude towards religion was mostly self-serving. When they saw it as a threat to their own cult (because that's what Russian communism was in Stalin's time), they suppressed it. When they thought they needed to use it for their goals (Like in 1941 when Hitler attacked them and Stalin needed to use all possible ways to raise the morale of the people), they stopped the suppression policy and even encouraged it.

Quote

This Wiki quotes articles claiming between 12-20 million dead over the lifetime of the USSR.  The worst part is that it worked.  There were 50,000 churches in Russia before the revolution.  By 1940 it was down to 500.

20 million people died but the worst part is that a lot of churches were destroyed?

They quickly many rebuilt thousands of churches when Stalin changed his policy which showed that the Orthodox faith itself wasn't anywhere close to being destroyed. And even though some of the later leaders reversed the religious policy again a few times, Russia is still quite religious today from hat I have seen. Certainly a lot more than many other European countries.

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I am from a former Eastern bloc country (Bulgaria) where the communists were much more successful in decreasing the number of devout believers in the Orthodox faith and completely destroying the prestige of the Orthodox Church in the country than in Russia even though they didn't use such extreme measures as the Soviets. Even today most people here, even a lot of the Orthodox Christians, don't respect the orthodox Church since all bishops and patriarchs turned out to be secret agents of the communist secret police (and they have held the top spots in the church after the 1990 too) and the only thing the vast majority of them seem to care about it is to gain money from their position.

IMO breaking the power of the Orthodox Church was one of the few positive things they did. Though it wasn't nearly as powerful here before 1945  as the Russian church was before 1917, so it was easier to do.

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2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Karradin,

So, if you take your kids to church and don't offer the qualifications you deem appropriate you would have the State take the kids?

No Scot, if for no other reason there are too many Christians so there wouldn't be anywhere for all the kids.  I know my parents loved me, and I would not have wanted to be removed from them, but I still think the religious side of my upbringing qualifies as a form of child abuse.  Society as a whole was also engaging in child abuse, and if you try and imply that scarring a psyche to the point that identity is suppressed for close to 20 years isn't a form of abuse then I'm going to get rather less polite in this conversation.  The world is a complex place, and we fuck kids up all the time, I call it abuse because that's what it is, because of the impact on all the queer kids that are raised under this spectre and to try take the blinders off so you can see what is done to them.

I mean, I would have thought that even if Christians were right in their view of God (which one? pick! there are many to choose from!) that God would want worshippers making a meaningful choice to believe in God rather than simply being indoctrinated into it, without real choice in the first place.  It's not like I want a world where belief can't be freely chosen as an empowered individual.  I want a world that doesn't do to kids what happened to me.

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