Baratheon Princes

[Lord Greenhood]

Why did Renly and Stannis never have the title of Prince?

 

[FuzzyJAM]

Not the sons of royalty.  

Edit: The real question is "Why are Bran and Rickon called princes?"  I think the answer is that the Starks are supposed to be reclaiming their title, while the Baratheons are creating theirs.  So Bran and Rickon are the sons of a direct heir to kings, even if there's a gap of 300 years.  Further, as a warring king Robb needs heirs, and calling his brothers "princes" legitimises their claim should Robb die - Robert never had any such concern, he was fairly secure on the throne when he claimed it and had time to create heirs himself.  

[purple-eyes]

7 minutes ago, FuzzyJAM said:

Not the sons of royalty.  

Edit: The real question is "Why are Bran and Rickon called princes?"  I think the answer is that the Starks are supposed to be reclaiming their title, while the Baratheons are creating theirs.  So Bran and Rickon are the sons of a direct heir to kings, even if there's a gap of 300 years.  Further, as a warring king Robb needs heirs, and calling his brothers "princes" legitimises their claim should Robb die - Robert never had any such concern, he was fairly secure on the throne when he claimed it and had time to create heirs himself.  

Baratheon can claim kingship from wife of olys. she already established herself as storm-queen.

if it is not for aegon, then this line is still king for sure. just like house stark. the gap is also 300 years.

[FuzzyJAM]

Just now, purple-eyes said:

Baratheon can claim kingship from wife of olys. she already established herself as storm-queen.

if it is not for aegon, then this line is still king for sure. just like house stark. the gap is also 300 years.

Robert's claim is for the Iron Throne, not the Stormlands.  He can't possibly claim it's a continuation of the old Baratheon line of kingship.

Admittedly Robb is claiming more land than any of his ancestors, but he's still claiming it under the title of "King in the North".

[aryagonnakill#2]

Because you go by your highest title.  Joffrey and Tommen are princes which means they are somewhere in line to the throne.  Stannis and Renly would use the same title, but they are both Lords in their own right, powerful lords at that.  A prince rules nothing, a Lord does, so they go by Lord.  The same way most if not all southern lords are knights, but don't go by Ser, because Lord is a higher title.

[FuzzyJAM]

17 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Because you go by your highest title.  Joffrey and Tommen are princes which means they are somewhere in line to the throne.  Stannis and Renly would use the same title, but they are both Lords in their own right, powerful lords at that.  A prince rules nothing, a Lord does, so they go by Lord.  The same way most if not all southern lords are knights, but don't go by Ser, because Lord is a higher title.

But then the Targaryens ruled, they called the rulers of their lordships "princes": Prince of Summerhall, Prince of Dragonstone.  It's a little iffy for Storm's End, but Robert specifically changes the title of ruler of Dragonstone from "prince" to "lord" when he gives it to Stannis.  I don't think he'd have done that if Stannis were regarded as a prince, so it can't simply be that prince (of nowhere) was a lower title than Lord of Dragonstone.  

[dariopatke]

But then the Targaryens ruled, they called the rulers of their lordships "princes": Prince of Summerhall, Prince of Dragonstone.  It's a little iffy for Storm's End, but Robert specifically changes the title of ruler of Dragonstone from "prince" to "lord" when he gives it to Stannis.  I don't think he'd have done that if Stannis were regarded as a prince, so it can't simply be that prince (of nowhere) was a lower title than Lord of Dragonstone.  

Stannis is Prince that was promised, he doesnt need to be Prince of Dragonstone.

[aryagonnakill#2]

3 hours ago, FuzzyJAM said:

But then the Targaryens ruled, they called the rulers of their lordships "princes": Prince of Summerhall, Prince of Dragonstone.  It's a little iffy for Storm's End, but Robert specifically changes the title of ruler of Dragonstone from "prince" to "lord" when he gives it to Stannis.  I don't think he'd have done that if Stannis were regarded as a prince, so it can't simply be that prince (of nowhere) was a lower title than Lord of Dragonstone.  

Yes Prince of Summerhall and Prince of Dragonstone, because they were not the Lords of those seats.  There were no lords of those seats.  Both belonged to the ruling Targ King to dispose of as he saw fit, they did not pass to the children of the Targ who ruled there.  For example Maegor being Prince of Summerhall, that did not make Aerion heir to Summerhall.

[AryaGonnaEatThatDeadFatGuy]

Maybe Robert wanted rule to be like the far north...

[Blackfyre Bastard]

8 hours ago, Lord Greenhood said:

Why did Renly and Stannis never have the title of Prince?

 

They probably did, as heirs presumptive to the IT, but after Joffrey was born, they reverted their style to "Lord" since they weren't born to a king.

That would be a case akin to Bran and Rickon Stark, both being heirs presumptive to Robb. Had Robb had any trueborn children as KitN, those children would've been styled as "princes" and if Bran and Rickon received fiefs of their own, they would be styled as "lords".

I see Dragonstone and Summerhall mentioned. Only thing I can think of why their holders were princes is because they were from the royal House, children or grandchildren to kings, the lord of Dragonstone being usually the heir apparent to the IT, Summerhall a retreat to king Daeron II until he passed to his son Maekar.

[Lord Varys]

There is little reason why Stannis and Renly shouldn't be styled prince, really. They may not have been the sons of a king, true, but they eventually became the brothers of a king, and a king can grant them such styles. Why the hell wouldn't Robert do that if he threw lordships and castles at them?

There is no real difference between Stannis/Renly and Robb and Bran? Robb certainly has time to marry and father heirs as nobody thinks he'll die soon, just as Robert has after his coronation. Before Robert married Cersei and had a son by her Stannis was Robert's heir presumptive, a fact that should be reflected in some fashion.

More importantly, Robert, Stannis, and Renly all were the grandsons of a princess, and the great-grandsons of a king. It would therefore not be that preposterous to assume that King Robert would change their status accordingly after rising to the throne.

George seems to try to establish some system there with Gyldayn never referring to Laena and Laenor as prince(ss) and Daemon's daughters Baela and Rhaena simply being styled 'lady' rather than 'princess', but then again: Stannis' and Renly's status did change considerably when their elder brother took the throne, just as one assumes that Laena's status had changed had Laenor succeeded Jaehaerys I as King Laenor I Velaryon.

[SeanF]

There is little reason why Stannis and Renly shouldn't be styled prince, really. They may not have been the sons of a king, true, but they eventually became the brothers of a king, and a king can grant them such styles. Why the hell wouldn't Robert do that if he threw lordships and castles at them?

There is no real difference between Stannis/Renly and Robb and Bran? Robb certainly has time to marry and father heirs as nobody thinks he'll die soon, just as Robert has after his coronation. Before Robert married Cersei and had a son by her Stannis was Robert's heir presumptive, a fact that should be reflected in some fashion.

More importantly, Robert, Stannis, and Renly all were the grandsons of a princess, and the great-grandsons of a king. It would therefore not be that preposterous to assume that King Robert would change their status accordingly after rising to the throne.

George seems to try to establish some system there with Gyldayn never referring to Laena and Laenor as prince(ss) and Daemon's daughters Baela and Rhaena simply being styled 'lady' rather than 'princess', but then again: Stannis' and Renly's status did change considerably when their elder brother took the throne, just as one assumes that Laena's status had changed had Laenor succeeded Jaehaerys I as King Laenor I Velaryon.

Outside Dorne, Prince is presumably just a courtesy title for a member of the royal family. A lordship gives you actual rights of jurisdiction.

[Lord Varys]

28 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Outside Dorne, Prince is presumably just a courtesy title for a member of the royal family. A lordship gives you actual rights of jurisdiction.

Sure, but then one assumes that entitled people like Stannis and Renly would want to bear such a title. People who don't have any lordships also have no problem being a lord-by-courtesy like Varys or Qyburn. In that sense, I find it strange that Stannis and Renly wouldn't want to be styled prince and lord. It would be that difficult: Prince Stannis, the Lord of Dragonstone, Prince Renly, the Lord of Storm's End.

And, of course, a prince of the royal family would always outrank any lord, making it pretty obvious that anyone would prefer to be styled 'prince' if he is a prince. 

[direpupy]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but then one assumes that entitled people like Stannis and Renly would want to bear such a title. People who don't have any lordships also have no problem being a lord-by-courtesy like Varys or Qyburn. In that sense, I find it strange that Stannis and Renly wouldn't want to be styled prince and lord. It would be that difficult: Prince Stannis, the Lord of Dragonstone, Prince Renly, the Lord of Storm's End.

And, of course, a prince of the royal family would always outrank any lord, making it pretty obvious that anyone would prefer to be styled 'prince' if he is a prince. 

That would be the other way round Lord Stannis, Lord of Dragonstone, Prince of the Realm (or alternatifly Prince of the Blood) And Lord Renly. Lord of Storms End, Lord paramount of the Stormlands, Prince of the Realm. the royal title when not a King, Queen or crownprins(es) comes last. however as they are of the royal house they should be adressed as "Your Grace" as befits there royal status.

[miguelangel23]

Isn't it because they're related to the royal house but not in the royal house, renly is part of house baratheon of storms end and stannis from baratheon of dragonstone, of course they have a claim but until then they have their own house and lands to rule, their own legacy

[miguelangel23]

All targaryen princes didnt have a house on their own, they're always part of the royal house.

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, direpupy said:

That would be the other way round Lord Stannis, Lord of Dragonstone, Prince of the Realm (or alternatifly Prince of the Blood) And Lord Renly. Lord of Storms End, Lord paramount of the Stormlands, Prince of the Realm. the royal title when not a King, Queen or crownprins(es) comes last. however as they are of the royal house they should be adressed as "Your Grace" as befits there royal status.

That really depends. Joff is often styled 'my prince' by Sansa in AGoT, and he isn't getting any 'Your Grace' until he is king. Could be that 'Your Grace' is for the king and queen alone. But there may be other inconsistencies to this, of course. Could be that Tommen and Myrcella are styled 'Your Grace' before any of them is proclaimed king/queen.

Usually people would refer to Stannis and Renly as 'Prince Stannis' and 'Prince Renly' when people are thinking or talking about them informally, just as people usually do about other princes who also happen to have other titles.

And I must say I see no difference between Bran and Rickon being promoted to princes than I see between Shireen becoming a princess after her father crowned himself. Shireen is Stannis' heir presumptive just as Stannis was Robert's heir presumptive before he had a son. Nobody is going to demote Shireen back to lady even if Stannis fathers a son who eventually succeeds him. In that sense, one should assume that Stannis and Renly would have become princes when Robert took the throne, and would have remained princes until the day he died.

After all, Shireen wasn't born as a princess, either. So why the hell should she as the heir presumptive get a promotion when Robert's own brother - male heirs! - didn't get such a promotion?

6 minutes ago, miguelangel23 said:

Isn't it because they're related to the royal house but not in the royal house, renly is part of house baratheon of storms end and stannis from baratheon of dragonstone, of course they have a claim but until then they have their own house and lands to rule, their own legacy

There have been non royal/cadet branches of House Targaryen. Maekar was the Prince of Summerhall during the reign of his father and for the greater part of the reign of his brother, Aerys I.

Presumably, Prince Baelon and Princess Alyssa, along with their sons Viserys, Daemon, and Aegon were setting up a cadet branch of House Targaryen while Prince Aemon was still Prince of Dragonstone. Prince Viserys, Prince Aegon, and Prince Daeron all were part of a cadet branch of House Targaryen until Baelor the Blessed died without an heir of his own body. And so on.

 

[direpupy]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That really depends. Joff is often styled 'my prince' by Sansa in AGoT, and he isn't getting any 'Your Grace' until he is king. Could be that 'Your Grace' is for the king and queen alone. But there may be other inconsistencies to this, of course. Could be that Tommen and Myrcella are styled 'Your Grace' before any of them is proclaimed king/queen.

Usually people would refer to Stannis and Renly as 'Prince Stannis' and 'Prince Renly' when people are thinking or talking about them informally, just as people usually do about other princes who also happen to have other titles.

And I must say I see no difference between Bran and Rickon being promoted to princes than I see between Shireen becoming a princess after her father crowned himself. Shireen is Stannis' heir presumptive just as Stannis was Robert's heir presumptive before he had a son. Nobody is going to demote Shireen back to lady even if Stannis fathers a son who eventually succeeds him. In that sense, one should assume that Stannis and Renly would have become princes when Robert took the throne, and would have remained princes until the day he died.

After all, Shireen wasn't born as a princess, either. So why the hell should she as the heir presumptive get a promotion when Robert's own brother - male heirs! - didn't get such a promotion?

There have been non royal/cadet branches of House Targaryen. Maekar was the Prince of Summerhall during the reign of his father and for the greater part of the reign of his brother, Aerys I.

Presumably, Prince Baelon and Princess Alyssa, along with their sons Viserys, Daemon, and Aegon were setting up a cadet branch of House Targaryen while Prince Aemon was still Prince of Dragonstone. Prince Viserys, Prince Aegon, and Prince Daeron all were part of a cadet branch of House Targaryen until Baelor the Blessed died without an heir of his own body. And so on.

 

The Dunk and Egg stories astablish in the hedge knight that al royal person's should be adressed as Your Grace that it does not Always happen does not change that.

As to how people informally  refer to Stannis and Renly that depends on how they present themselves as prince or as lord.

Yes they should by al rights be princes, but you get refered to by your most important title there prince title is just them neing of royal blood, there Lord title is simular to a ducal title in the middle ages a peerage and thus there most important title.

[miguelangel23]

That would be the other way round Lord Stannis, Lord of Dragonstone, Prince of the Realm (or alternatifly Prince of the Blood) And Lord Renly. Lord of Storms End, Lord paramount of the Stormlands, Prince of the Realm. the royal title when not a King, Queen or crownprins(es) comes last. however as they are of the royal house they should be adressed as "Your Grace" as befits there royal status.

That really depends. Joff is often styled 'my prince' by Sansa in AGoT, and he isn't getting any 'Your Grace' until he is king. Could be that 'Your Grace' is for the king and queen alone. But there may be other inconsistencies to this, of course. Could be that Tommen and Myrcella are styled 'Your Grace' before any of them is proclaimed king/queen.

Usually people would refer to Stannis and Renly as 'Prince Stannis' and 'Prince Renly' when people are thinking or talking about them informally, just as people usually do about other princes who also happen to have other titles.

And I must say I see no difference between Bran and Rickon being promoted to princes than I see between Shireen becoming a princess after her father crowned himself. Shireen is Stannis' heir presumptive just as Stannis was Robert's heir presumptive before he had a son. Nobody is going to demote Shireen back to lady even if Stannis fathers a son who eventually succeeds him. In that sense, one should assume that Stannis and Renly would have become princes when Robert took the throne, and would have remained princes until the day he died.

After all, Shireen wasn't born as a princess, either. So why the hell should she as the heir presumptive get a promotion when Robert's own brother - male heirs! - didn't get such a promotion?

Isn't it because they're related to the royal house but not in the royal house, renly is part of house baratheon of storms end and stannis from baratheon of dragonstone, of course they have a claim but until then they have their own house and lands to rule, their own legacy

There have been non royal/cadet branches of House Targaryen. Maekar was the Prince of Summerhall during the reign of his father and for the greater part of the reign of his brother, Aerys I.

Presumably, Prince Baelon and Princess Alyssa, along with their sons Viserys, Daemon, and Aegon were setting up a cadet branch of House Targaryen while Prince Aemon was still Prince of Dragonstone. Prince Viserys, Prince Aegon, and Prince Daeron all were part of a cadet branch of House Targaryen until Baelor the Blessed died without an heir of his own body. And so on.

 

But they're always part of house targaryen, summerhall and dragonstone were part of the royal house until robert made dragonstone a different house, prince of summerhall and prince of dragonstone were tittles given to th youger and older sibling from the royal family that were actually in the line of succession

[miguelangel23]

Sorry im new to the chat and i didnt know how to quote