Gwindor

Lady Stoneheart is actually Robb Stark

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For a long time already, we've all been used to the fact that Robb Stark is totally and irrepairably dead. But is he really?

After the publication of ADWD, the prologue of which provided some rather comprehensive insight into warging mechanics, it wasn't difficult to jump to a conclusion that Robb warged into Grey Wind before death. However, given that the wolf was also killed at about the same time, it would seem that any speculation regarding Robb's employment of his warging abilities in the moment of direst peril was destined to come to a dead end. But I believe that's just a very clever way GRRM is deceiving us, making us jump to a rather obvious, yet still subtle, conclusion, then dismiss it due to very compelling evidence, and... abandon this particular line of speculation altogether. You know, like "Oh, so wargs can get a second life, so Robb must have warged into Grey Wind and survived!!! Oh, wait, the wolf's dead too... That's a bummer... Well, what're you gonna do, let's move on to other theories." It seems to me just a thing GRRM would do, red-herring the readers to make them believe they've exhausted every opportunity in a particular topic of speculation before revealing something that in hindsight would look like "Oh my God, how could I possibly have missed that?! Especially given that I actually came to an almost similar conclusion!!!"

Let's go back to the Red Wedding chapter. The last words of Robb Stark were "Grey Wind". Now, this can be interpreted in different ways (like, admittedly, any piece of evidence that I have for my theory). It could just mean that Robb belatedly understood his wolf's peculiar behaviour towards the Freys and the Spicers. Note, however, that Jon Snow's last(?) word was, similarly, "Ghost". Of course, neither Jon nor Robb fully understood their powers, which basically means they were unable to use them at will, but it seems plausible to me to assume that a warg can instinctively transfer his/her consciousness SOMEWHERE upon death, whether or not they were aware of this opportunity. So, dying, Robb suddenly felt something weird happening, and then, realizing he had somehow begun to become his wolf, muttered in bewilderment "Grey Wind" (something like, "Oh gods, I am dying... something strange is happening... well, I suppose that's what dying means... but wait, it's like I now have another pair of eyes, which see something different than my own... and the sounds, and the strange incredibly sharp and clear scents... GREY WIND???"). Well, Grey Wind gets killed as well. But mind you (Varamyr is my witness), that doesn't necessarily mean all hope is lost for Robb. Robb's consciousness left his body as he lay dying, tried to settle in Grey Wind, and got kicked out at the wolf's death, or never even got a chance to try it, if Grey Wind was dead before Robb. I think this consciousness then tried in panic to attach itself to some living body. Varamyr, being an accomplished warg, could choose who to warg into, but Robb's consciousness was likely restricted to such living beings with whom Robb had some significant connection, the foremost (and spatially closest, which probably matters) of which being, of course, his mother Catelyn. Catelyn inflicted rather serious wounds upon her face after Robb's death, which can very conveniently be attributed to her madness from grief. To me, however, it screams of similarity with Thistle's behaviour when she clawed her eyes out and bit her tongue off after Varamyr warged into her. So it seems very possible that Catelyn's ravaging of her face wasn't driven by grief and sense of loss, but rather by confusion and terror of feeling someone alien inside her head.

The Ghost of High Heart had a prophetic dream about Catelyn's fate, and she "woke in terror" when a "woman that was fish... opened her eyes". Now why would this little old woman get so terrified? Of course, a long dead and starting to decay body suddenly displaying signs of life is frightening as hell, so that seems an obvious and completely satisfactory explanation, but again, it's my idea that GRRM has planted those "obvious explanations" in order to lead the readers off-track. The Ghost of High Heart is frequently associated with the Children of the Forest, and warging is also heavily associated with the latter, and Haggon (Varamyr's mentor) considered warging into humans "the worst abomination of all", so it seems very plausible to me that the albino dwarf was so terrified not by a dream of a zombie, but by a dream of a human body possessed with another human's consciousness (perhaps soul). She dreamt of the worst possible abomination, and that's what made her wake in terror.

In one of Arya's "wolf dreams", she witnessed Nymeria dragging Catelyn's body from the river and seemingly trying to revive her. Why would Nymeria do that? Why would the she-wolf pay any special attention to Catelyn's body in the first place? Of course, Catelyn was special for Arya, so, due to their bond, she had to also be special for Nymeria - that's the "obvious explanation". But none of the direwolves ever displayed any kind of special attitude towards anyone, except affectionate treatment of their soulmates (for lack of a better word, "master" seems somehow inappropriate), and hostile reaction to those posing danger to their soulmates. Well, Ghost did kind of befriend Melisandre, but that's most probably somehow magical. Now, Nymeria acting so sentimentally with the body in which she can feel the lingering presense of her brother's soulmate (or even Grey Wind himself) makes a little bit more sense to me.

If UnCat is indeed Robb, we wouldn't necessarily learn it from the BwB. In fact, I believe they don't know it. Imagine Robb waking up, having experienced his own death twice or thrice, to find himself in a horribly disfigured body of his dead mother. He is shocked and horrified, and he cannot speak comprehensively. By the time he pulled himself together, and by the time someone in the BwB learned to understand his speech, he could have chosen to keep his true identity unknown.

UnCat drastically differs from Catelyn we know. In fact, I often find it difficult to perceive them as one human, and not as two separate characters. Of course ("obvious explanation" time), death has changed her, death had previously changed Lord Beric Dondarrion, though not THAT MUCH. And of course ("obvious explanation" time continued), Catelyn's manner of death was much harsher than any of the six Beric's deaths, and she stayed dead much longer than he had, so that "obviously explains" her considerably more advanced stage of mental transformation, but still, I think it's actually easier to picture Robb in Cat's body, after everything he's gone through, ruthlessly exterminating the Freys and (especially!!!) intending to hang Brienne, than Catelyn herself. UnCat's behaviour is more like Robb than Catelyn to begin with, and mind also that if my theory is right, then Robb has gone through much more horrible things than Catelyn has. Also, recall UnCat fingering Robb's crown - that particular detail gets more meaning if it's actually Robb fingering his own crown.

TL;DR: Robb Stark instinctively warged into Grey Wind while dying, but the wolf was killed as well, so Robb's consciousness attached itself instead to the closest (spatially and relations-wise) live being - his mother Catelyn. Catelyn then died, and got resurrected, while still possessed by her son.

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Whoa tin foil alert

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It's interesting, but I think that LS's motivations and alteration from Cat before going mad and killing Jinglebells are logical without her being Robb. And Robb as LS would be even more altered as he was before - Robb beheaded Lord Karstark, an ally, for killing two boys in revenge. It's something that even Cat advized against doing. And while you make a good point that her clawing at her own face reminds us of Thistle clawing her own eyes out when Varamyr tries to posess her... Thistle also was very much aware of him entering her body and mind and ordered him to get out, which is something Cat's POV does not show at all. I have no issue with LS being who she is, because she fits the archetypal mother-fury, and I don't follow this idea that a woman cannot be so vengeful. And Robb's homelands are the North, so I wouldn't see him lingering in the RL, but go North instead, nor was he hellbent on getting Sansa back. He doesn't even know Brienne. Cat got back to RR with Brienne when Robb was already raiding in the Westerlands, and Robb did not return to RR until after Cat had sent Brienne away with Jaime. I just do not see how it adds anything that is not already explicable by LS being a resurrected and changed Cat.

Edited by sweetsunray

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Well, had there been any unambiguous sign of "possessing" in Catelyn's POV, it would have ruined the mystery. And I do believe GRRM would have intended such a thing as a great twist, and wouldn't like to reveal it too soon. Still, the absence of any such sign has to be explained somehow, so how about this:

1. Thistle had not experienced a tremendous personal tragedy right before her possession by Varamyr, which could have contributed to her stronger awareness of what's happening to her.

2. Thistle was being possessed by a man she hardly knew, almost a perfect stranger. Catelyn was possibly being possessed by her own son, which could have been felt as a much less disturbing presense.

BTW, I never claimed that a woman couldn't be so vengeful, I just think it more likely that Robb turned out that vengeful than Catelyn.

Still, neither UnCat's behavior, nor the Ghost of the High Heart's reaction to her dream, nor Nymeria's treatment of Catelyn's body is a sufficient basis for this theory. It all comes down to Robb whispering "Grey Wind" before dying, and Catelyn clawing at her face almost immediately afterwards - a behavior displayed by ONLY ONE other character in the series.

All the other evidence is just looking at the related events in light of the theory. All of it can be (and commonly is) explained otherwise, but generally, it all kind of fits.

Edited by Gwindor

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33 minutes ago, Gwindor said:

Well, had there been any unambiguous sign of "possessing" in Catelyn's POV, it would have ruined the mystery. And I do believe GRRM would have intended such a thing as a great twist, and wouldn't like to reveal it too soon. Still, the absence of any such sign has to be explained somehow, so how about this:

1. Thistle had not experienced a tremendous personal tragedy right before her possession by Varamyr, which could have contributed to her stronger awareness of what's happening to her.

2. Thistle was being possessed by a man she hardly knew, almost a perfect stranger. Catelyn was possibly being possessed by her own son, which could have been felt as a much less disturbing presense.

BTW, I never claimed that a woman couldn't be so vengeful, I just think it more likely that Robb turned out that vengeful than Catelyn.

The problem with this "twist" is that any chance for it being revealed, let alone explained are zero. LS speaking abilities are close to nill and we don't have a POV on her. The reveal of it - LS finally telling some person that she's actually Robb would read like a complete retcon, because it does not add to the progression of the narrative. That's not a twist, but just bad writing. Nor is it the type of thing Bran could reveal to us through the weirnet. LS herself is the twist. Many readers already think LS over the top. Making Cat = LS = Robb makes me picture the soapy finale of Tootsie with Dustin Hoffman's retcon speech and taking his wig off and talking with his own deep voice once more: twist within a twist within a twist.

 

 

LS si the twist for the progression of narrative. The BwB under Beric would not have endured after the Red Wedding, because his goal was not political. George needed a large group of underground organized men in the RL to orchestrate a true resistance against Frey collaboration and take over together with Lannisters. The BwB needed to be changed into an actual political faction. George could have picked Robb or Cat for it. Cat has the most potential, because she has the additional aspect of wanting her daughters back. Robb cares for his sisters, but not as much as Cat. She did what she could to get them back, even releasing her son's prisoner. Robb treated his sister's disappearance and hostage situation more as collateral damage of his campaign. He already made his peace with the fact that they were dead or married to Tyrion. He was more devestated about his brothers being dead. Had he picked Robb for it, then he would have resurrected the desecrated body of Robb imo.

Edited by sweetsunray

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Cat has the most potential, because she has the additional aspect of wanting her daughters back.

Lets go back to the last dialog between LS and Brienne.

Brienne talks about her searching Sansa, but there's no reaction from LS at all.

Was that really a mother's behavior?

sorry, but UnCat seems to me more like a war-unit, rather than a mother.

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 Catelyn then died, and got resurrected, while still possessed by her son.

You had me going up until here. Once Cat dies that ends the warging of her body. Robb would have to find a new host. I'm not sure Robb is even ready to warg humans anyways. Even a more trained skin-changer like Varamyr has all kinds of problems doing that. 

Robb is dead, Uncat is Uncat. Da end.

Edited by tallTale

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1 hour ago, tallTale said:

Once Cat dies that ends the warging of her body

and remain in body after resurrection

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4 hours ago, Gwindor said:

But I believe that's just a very clever way GRRM is deceiving us, making us jump to a rather obvious, yet still subtle, conclusion, then dismiss it due to very compelling evidence, and... abandon this particular line of speculation altogether.

This, to me, is the biggest problem with your theory. GRRM doesn't deceive us. He doesn't even use twists really; the outcomes which seem to be a stupendous twist on first reading were foreshadowed and hinted long before they happened. But GRRM never lies to his readers. He hides things in plain sight, which is a different thing entirely than deception.

 

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2 hours ago, Sasha Scher said:

Lets go back to the last dialog between LS and Brienne.

Brienne talks about her searching Sansa, but there's no reaction from LS at all.

Was that really a mother's behavior?

sorry, but UnCat seems to me more like a war-unit, rather than a mother.

LS has more people looking and finding whomever they wish on the ground over a large region. LS is already pre-conceived against Brienne having turned her coat, and who she searches Sansa for - for Cersei and Tommen, who put a prize on her head.

And then there's the crossroads inn, which both Gendry and Lem guard, and it's the orphan's inn, where sparrow bring children on and off, the same inn where Arya and the Hound killed Polliver and the Tickler, and the blood stains can't be washed out of the wooden floor. You think that's just pure coincidence? Of course it isn't. It's one of their best, logical hopes to retrieve a lost child.

And let's not forget Merrett Frey who is interrogated regarding Arya.

They've got a whole large network all over the RL on the look-out, and Brienne insists she was searching for Sansa using a Lannister seal. Of course there's no reaction to it, because it simply sounds completely absurd. And what Brienne knows about Arya is already old news to them, even that the supposed Arya sent to the Boltons cannot be the true Arya.

Edited by sweetsunray

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2 hours ago, Sasha Scher said:

Lets go back to the last dialog between LS and Brienne.

Brienne talks about her searching Sansa, but there's no reaction from LS at all.

Was that really a mother's behavior?

sorry, but UnCat seems to me more like a war-unit, rather than a mother.

Well, who isn't searching for Sansa right now? She's wanted throughout thte 7K for a murder she didn't commit. I'm pretty sure this isn't news to the BWB, they're probably trying to make sure they find Sansa first anyway. 

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11 minutes ago, Little Lark said:

Well, who isn't searching for Sansa right now? She's wanted throughout thte 7K for a murder she didn't commit. I'm pretty sure this isn't news to the BWB, they're probably trying to make sure they find Sansa first anyway. 

Exactly. Had Brienne said, I found a clue regarding Sansa's whereabouts, then we have something interesting. If LS and the BwB would be unresponsive to that, then Sasha would have an argument. But all she can say is, "I was searching for her." And then she doesn't even say a thing of what she knows about Arya at her trial (even though you can bet on it that they know where Arya was step-by-step better than Brienne, as far as Saltpans). Imagine a parent with a child missing and the whole neighbourhood and police team going through every area with a comb, dredging, etc for months... And then half a year later someone is discovered snooping around in your garden, and then tells you, "But I was searching for your child." Yeah, right.

Edited by sweetsunray

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6 hours ago, Gwindor said:

For a long time already, we've all been used to the fact that Robb Stark is totally and irrepairably dead. But is he really?

snip

TL;DR: Robb Stark instinctively warged into Grey Wind while dying, but the wolf was killed as well, so Robb's consciousness attached itself instead to the closest (spatially and relations-wise) live being - his mother Catelyn. Catelyn then died, and got resurrected, while still possessed by her son.

While this is an interesting exercise in westeros forum theory masturbation, it serves no (as in zero, zip, zilch, nip, nathan, nada) purpose for the story. Wargs do not survive in a dead body. Wargs also do not jump from a dying body, into an animal and then leave for another . It is called the second life, and once the wargs true body dies, they can reside in an animal they have warged but that is it. They do not warg from their second life as it is much simpler. 
On a related note,  Robb is not a warg. He has potential, but that is all. He could have had wolf dreams like Arya, but he never mentions it, and even had to be reminded by his mother to trust his wolf's instincts, and remember, he locked the wolf outside of the twins while having dinner. So no, Stoneheart is not Robb. no matter how much you want it to be true 

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i'm 80% sure the thread is a parody of R+L denials and "it's too obvious" argument in general.

But it's still too simple. I propose that Robb warged into Cat who warged into Beric who timetravell-warged into unGregor who warged into Coldhands who warged into RobbWind...and so on

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UnCat drastically differs from Catelyn we know. In fact, I often find it difficult to perceive them as one human, and not as two separate characters. Of course ("obvious explanation" time), death has changed her, death had previously changed Lord Beric Dondarrion, though not THAT MUCH. And of course ("obvious explanation" time continued), Catelyn's manner of death was much harsher than any of the six Beric's deaths, and she stayed dead much longer than he had, so that "obviously explains" her considerably more advanced stage of mental transformation, but still, I think it's actually easier to picture Robb in Cat's body, after everything he's gone through, ruthlessly exterminating the Freys and (especially!!!) intending to hang Brienne, than Catelyn herself.

Not really. After losing her whole family in such a brutal way, Catelyn dedicating herself to avenging this and punishing the monsters responsible for the atrocities in the RW seems completely logical. She always had strong vengeful urges, but held them back to protect her family. But now that her family is gone...

And why is Catelyn wanting to hang Brienne so inexplicable to you? Let's not forget that all material evidence shows that Brienne was guilty as hell of betraying Catelyn and joining the lannister. Yet she still gave Brienne a chance to prove her innocence by killing Jaime.

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Oh George, you and your "obvious explanations" hahahahahaha.

OP - nitpick alert, but Arya doesn't see Nymeria pull Catelyn's body from the river, she is Nymeria when this happens.

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7 hours ago, Gwindor said:

...

After the publication of ADWD, the prologue of which provided some rather comprehensive insight into warging mechanics, it wasn't difficult to jump to a conclusion that Robb warged into Grey Wind before death ... making us jump to a rather obvious, yet still subtle, conclusion, then dismiss it due to very compelling evidence, and... abandon this particular line of speculation altogether. 

...

In one of Arya's "wolf dreams", she witnessed Nymeria dragging Catelyn's body from the river and seemingly trying to revive her. Why would Nymeria do that? ... Now, Nymeria acting so sentimentally with the body in which she can feel the lingering presense of her brother's soulmate (or even Grey Wind himself) makes a little bit more sense to me.

...

UnCat drastically differs from Catelyn we know. In fact, I often find it difficult to perceive them as one human, and not as two separate characters. ... I think it's actually easier to picture Robb in Cat's body, after everything he's gone through, ruthlessly exterminating the Freys and (especially!!!) intending to hang Brienne, than Catelyn herself. ...

1) We also learned from Varamyr's prologue once a warg's body dies, the warg is trapped in whichever body they happen to be in at the time, unless they have warged a warg. Bran can warg Hodor, Arya warged the cat, and Bran, Arya, and Jon have all experienced the world through their wolves' eyes, but to date there has been no indication the direwolves can warg as well. If Robb had transferred his consciousness to Grey Wind, it would have ended with Grey Wind.

2) Even with everything she has been through, at the end of the day, Arya is still a little girl; Arya was at the Twins trying to find her mother, when she left, Nymeria continued the search. Nymeria retrieving Cat's body was also foreshadowed in AGOT, when Arya and Jon are discussing Joffrey's arms displaying both the Baratheon and Lannister sigils, and Arya mentions if she combined her parents' sigils it would be a elf with a fish in its mouth.

3) They are two separate characters, that is the whole point. Lady Stoneheart is motivated by revenge, and is attacking both Freys and Lannisters. Robb was never betrayed by a Lannister, Catelyn was betrayed by both Tyrion and Jaime. Brienne was nothing to Robb, she swore fealty to Lady Catelyn alone, and currently appears to have broken her word. At the time of her death, Catelyn has been abandoned by her sister, widowed, believes her youngest sons murdered by her husband's former ward, one daughter is missing presumed dead, the other daughter married to the enemy, her father has died, and she just witnessed her son be brutally murdered following a betrayal of mass proportion before being murdered herself. I have no difficulty believing Lady Catelyn and Lady Stoneheart are two facets of the same being.

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