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Lady Stoneheart is actually Robb Stark


Gwindor

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21 minutes ago, David Selig said:

How did "UnRobb Stark" recognise Brienne, BTW? Robb never saw her before his death.

In another of Ol' George's amazing twists the "obvious explanation" that Robb is dead and LSH is a new and angrier version of Cat Stark, which we immediately know isn't the case because we know better than to trust the "obvious explanation" is just a clever piece of subterfuge because LSH is in fact actually Catelyn Stark resurrected.

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OK, my post seems to have been misleading. Many of you evidently think that the basis for my theory is some general disbelief in what we all think we know. Well, it's not. I did overemphasize the "obvious explanation" thesis, which is far from the point - my mistake. So let me put it this way.

I have no problem with the notion that Robb is dead, and UnCat is UnCat. It is completely plausible, and certainly fits best with all we know, hell, it's literary an obvious explanation (no quotation marks - no sarcasm intended).

However, Catelyn did claw at her face in presence of a dying warg, which of course could just mean she was so overcome with grief. Yet this behavior is peculiar in the series: we know of no other example of it, neither in ASOIAF, nor in D&E, nor in historical novels, except in the prologue to ADWD. Now this is the basis of the theory.

This makes me wonder. This makes me curious. It might be nothing, or it might be very much something. If it doen't seem curious to you at all, well, there's nothing more I can do, thanks for your attention, you may leave the thread - there's nothing interesting for you here.

If you are, like me, curious about this behavioral similarity between Cat and Thistle, then you will conclude, that someone might have tried to possess Catelyn at than particular moment. Who could that be? Well, Robb, most likely.

If you put aside your (completely understandable) skepticism for a while, you could, like me, perform a thought experiment, just to see what if this theory is true. New interpretations of several events become possible.

1. UnCat's personality. Maybe she changed that much after death, it is very much possible. Or, maybe it is Robb, changed even more due to much more gruesome events he'd gone through. The point is, we cannot dismiss this theory based on UnCat's personality - Robb fits as well.

2. The dream of the Ghost of the High Heart and her terror. Maybe she was frightened by a vision of a zombie, no problem with that. Or, maybe she witnessed "the worst abomination of all". Again, the point is that it fits either way.

3. Nymeria dragging Cat's body from the river. Maybe it was a projection of Arya's desire to find her mother, which of course is plausible and also very touching. Or, maybe she sensed someone really close to her, Nymeria, in that body, which, frankly, I find perhaps slightly more plausible.

None of this evidence proves my theory, of course. But it doesn't contradict it either. The theory fits, although it is based on nothing but a hunch that something went funny with Catelyn clawing at her face almost immediately after Robb whispered "Grey Wind", which of course could mean anything, but it also could mean he was actually warging at that time.

10 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

This, to me, is the biggest problem with your theory. GRRM doesn't deceive us. He doesn't even use twists really; the outcomes which seem to be a stupendous twist on first reading were foreshadowed and hinted long before they happened. But GRRM never lies to his readers. He hides things in plain sight, which is a different thing entirely than deception.

It is a question of word choice. Of course I didn't mean 'deception' in some malevolent sense. Fine, let's call it 'hiding things in plain sight'. To me, it seems clever and very GRRM-like to hide a real explanation behind a fake, but very plausible one. UnCat is Catelyn, sure, no problem, everyone's satisfied, no one even asks questions. Similarly, most of us believed Cersei's children to be Robert's until it was releaved otherwise. The 'deaths' of Ramsay and Mance Rayder, Lannisters seemingly murdering Jon Arryn are some of the numerous examples of what I call GRRM's brilliant deception (sorry, hiding things in plain sight).

7 hours ago, David Selig said:

How did "UnRobb Stark" recognise Brienne, BTW? Robb never saw her before his death.

He didn't need to recognize her, the BwB knew who she was before UnCat returned.

8 hours ago, David Selig said:

And why is Catelyn wanting to hang Brienne so inexplicable to you? Let's not forget that all material evidence shows that Brienne was guilty as hell of betraying Catelyn and joining the lannister. Yet she still gave Brienne a chance to prove her innocence by killing Jaime.

Catelyn wanting to hang Brienne is of course explicable, but so it also is if it is indeed Robb. And mind you, this hanging attempt probably was intended to make Brienne agree to kill Jaime, not to actually kill her. Of course they probably wouldn't stop the execution unless Brienne agreed to cooperate, but the calculation was she would agree (and it proved correct). This whole UnCat - Brienne interaction is in fact not about Brienne at all, it is about getting to Jaime Lannister (who has sent his regards via Roose Bolton and so seems to have had some part in the RW). It is not Brienne's punishment, nor a chance to prove her innocence. UnCat isn't interested in Brienne's innocence, but rather in the death of Jaime Lannister. Certainly, Catelyn would have wanted revenge on Jaime, but UnCat's interaction with Brienne makes perfect sense even if UnCat is Robb.

Now, there's a lot of criticism regarding the very possibility of such warging.

8 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

Wargs do not survive in a dead body. Wargs also do not jump from a dying body, into an animal and then leave for another . It is called the second life, and once the wargs true body dies, they can reside in an animal they have warged but that is it. They do not warg from their second life as it is much simpler. 

7 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

1) We also learned from Varamyr's prologue once a warg's body dies, the warg is trapped in whichever body they happen to be in at the time, unless they have warged a warg. Bran can warg Hodor, Arya warged the cat, and Bran, Arya, and Jon have all experienced the world through their wolves' eyes, but to date there has been no indication the direwolves can warg as well. If Robb had transferred his consciousness to Grey Wind, it would have ended with Grey Wind.

Actually, what we learned from Varamyr's prologue is that Haggon believed that much, and taught Varamyr to believe the same. What we also learned from the same prologue is that Varamyr somehow managed to warg twice at his death, somewhat contradicting the very beliefs he and his mentor had held. He warged into Thistle, then his primary body died, then he somehow left her body, existed literally everywhere for a while, then warged into one of his wolves. How the hell did he do that, considering Haggon's beliefs? Well, we don't know. But why should we believe Haggon in the first place? Had he been there? Had he died already and gotten to know what really happens then? Do you know what will happen to you after death? You don't. You may have some beliefs, but you can't possibly know for sure until you die. And then you don't come back to tell the tale, so none of the living can know anything certain about death. Why should it be any different for a warg?

The thing is, we know very little about warging, and even less about what happens when a warg dies. So far, only four wargs have died in the series (and that including Robb). Orell got his second life as his eagle, but what would happen had the eagle been already dead? We don't know. Haggon couldn't have warged into his wolf, because Varamyr had previously killed him, but what exactly happened to Haggon? Varamyr was sure he just died, but that's for no better reason than in accordance with those beliefs they shared. And what happens when warging gets somehow mixed with R'hllor's resurrection magic, even the Children of the Forest probably don't know.

8 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

On a related note,  Robb is not a warg. He has potential, but that is all. He could have had wolf dreams like Arya, but he never mentions it, and even had to be reminded by his mother to trust his wolf's instincts, and remember, he locked the wolf outside of the twins while having dinner.

So? In what way does it prove that a warg who is not conscious of his powers (a person with warging potential, that is) cannot have second life? Yeah, he cannot warg at will, but warging at death may very well be instinctive, for all we know. Jon Snow is also unaware of his abilities, yet one of the most prominent theories about his resurrection concerns him warging into Ghost. Whose name is, by the way, the last thing Jon mutters. Just like Robb muttering "Grey Wind", incidentally. That Jon could really have warged into Ghost while dying has even been kind of foreshadowed in Melisandre's vision of "a boy, then a wolf, then a boy again" (of course, different interpretations of the vision are possible, but this one remains a possibility). If Jon warging into Ghost while dying is a possibility, then so is Robb warging into Grey Wind. Only Grey Wind was also killed, and we don't know for sure what happens in such cases. And at the same time Catelyn starts clawing at her face, seeming so mad to the Freys that they kill her, although that wasn't even intended.

8 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

So no, Stoneheart is not Robb. no matter how much you want it to be true

Stoneheart is what it is, no matter how much anyone wants anything to be true. Look, I'm not trying to make anyone believe it, neither do I claim to have proven anything conclusively. Yet it seems an interesting line of speculation to me, and not without any evidence altogether, which also isn't conclusively contradicted by any source material.

Frankly, I am very much surprised this theory receives such a reaction of outright denial. It's not me wanting it to be true, it's you inexplicably fervently desiring it to be untrue.

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7 minutes ago, Gwindor said:

OK, my post seems to have been misleading. Many of you evidently think that the basis for my theory is some general disbelief in what we all think we know. Well, it's not. I did overemphasize the "obvious explanation" thesis, which is far from the point - my mistake. So let me put it this way.

I have no problem with the notion that Robb is dead, and UnCat is UnCat. It is completely plausible, and certainly fits best with all we know, hell, it's literary an obvious explanation (no quotation marks - no sarcasm intended).

However, Catelyn did claw at her face in presence of a dying warg, which of course could just mean she was so overcome with grief. Yet this behavior is peculiar in the series: we know of no other example of it, neither in ASOIAF, nor in D&E, nor in historical novels, except in the prologue to ADWD. Now this is the basis of the theory.

This makes me wonder. This makes me curious. It might be nothing, or it might be very much something. If it doen't seem curious to you at all, well, there's nothing more I can do, thanks for your attention, you may leave the thread - there's nothing interesting for you here.

If you are, like me, curious about this behavioral similarity between Cat and Thistle, then you will conclude, that someone might have tried to possess Catelyn at than particular moment. Who could that be? Well, Robb, most likely.

If you put aside your (completely understandable) skepticism for a while, you could, like me, perform a thought experiment, just to see what if this theory is true. New interpretations of several events become possible.

1. UnCat's personality. Maybe she changed that much after death, it is very much possible. Or, maybe it is Robb, changed even more due to much more gruesome events he'd gone through. The point is, we cannot dismiss this theory based on UnCat's personality - Robb fits as well.

2. The dream of the Ghost of the High Heart and her terror. Maybe she was frightened by a vision of a zombie, no problem with that. Or, maybe she witnessed "the worst abomination of all". Again, the point is that it fits either way.

3. Nymeria dragging Cat's body from the river. Maybe it was a projection of Arya's desire to find her mother, which of course is plausible and also very touching. Or, maybe she sensed someone really close to her, Nymeria, in that body, which, frankly, I find perhaps slightly more plausible.

None of this evidence proves my theory, of course. But it doesn't contradict it either. The theory fits, although it is based on nothing but a hunch that something went funny with Catelyn clawing at her face almost immediately after Robb whispered "Grey Wind", which of course could mean anything, but it also could mean he was actually warging at that time.

It is a question of word choice. Of course I didn't mean 'deception' in some malevolent sense. Fine, let's call it 'hiding things in plain sight'. To me, it seems clever and very GRRM-like to hide a real explanation behind a fake, but very plausible one. UnCat is Catelyn, sure, no problem, everyone's satisfied, no one even asks questions. Similarly, most of us believed Cersei's children to be Robert's until it was releaved otherwise. The 'deaths' of Ramsay and Mance Rayder, Lannisters seemingly murdering Jon Arryn are some of the numerous examples of what I call GRRM's brilliant deception (sorry, hiding things in plain sight).

He didn't need to recognize her, the BwB knew who she was before UnCat returned.

Catelyn wanting to hang Brienne is of course explicable, but so it also is if it is indeed Robb. And mind you, this hanging attempt probably was intended to make Brienne agree to kill Jaime, not to actually kill her. Of course they probably wouldn't stop the execution unless Brienne agreed to cooperate, but the calculation was she would agree (and it proved correct). This whole UnCat - Brienne interaction is in fact not about Brienne at all, it is about getting to Jaime Lannister (who has sent his regards via Roose Bolton and so seems to have had some part in the RW). It is not Brienne's punishment, nor a chance to prove her innocence. UnCat isn't interested in Brienne's innocence, but rather in the death of Jaime Lannister. Certainly, Catelyn would have wanted revenge on Jaime, but UnCat's interaction with Brienne makes perfect sense even if UnCat is Robb.

Now, there's a lot of criticism regarding the very possibility of such warging.

Actually, what we learned from Varamyr's prologue is that Haggon believed that much, and taught Varamyr to believe the same. What we also learned from the same prologue is that Varamyr somehow managed to warg twice at his death, somewhat contradicting the very beliefs he and his mentor had held. He warged into Thistle, then his primary body died, then he somehow left her body, existed literally everywhere for a while, then warged into one of his wolves. How the hell did he do that, considering Haggon's beliefs? Well, we don't know. But why should we believe Haggon in the first place? Had he been there? Had he died already and gotten to know what really happens then? Do you know what will happen to you after death? You don't. You may have some beliefs, but you can't possibly know for sure until you die. And then you don't come back to tell the tale, so none of the living can know anything certain about death. Why should it be any different for a warg?

The thing is, we know very little about warging, and even less about what happens when a warg dies. So far, only four wargs have died in the series (and that including Robb). Orell got his second life as his eagle, but what would happen had the eagle been already dead? We don't know. Haggon couldn't have warged into his wolf, because Varamyr had previously killed him, but what exactly happened to Haggon? Varamyr was sure he just died, but that's for no better reason than in accordance with those beliefs they shared. And what happens when warging gets somehow mixed with R'hllor's resurrection magic, even the Children of the Forest probably don't know.

So? In what way does it prove that a warg who is not conscious of his powers (a person with warging potential, that is) cannot have second life? Yeah, he cannot warg at will, but warging at death may very well be instinctive, for all we know. Jon Snow is also unaware of his abilities, yet one of the most prominent theories about his resurrection concerns him warging into Ghost. Whose name is, by the way, the last thing Jon mutters. Just like Robb muttering "Grey Wind", incidentally. That Jon could really have warged into Ghost while dying has even been kind of foreshadowed in Melisandre's vision of "a boy, then a wolf, then a boy again" (of course, different interpretations of the vision are possible, but this one remains a possibility). If Jon warging into Ghost while dying is a possibility, then so is Robb warging into Grey Wind. Only Grey Wind was also killed, and we don't know for sure what happens in such cases. And at the same time Catelyn starts clawing at her face, seeming so mad to the Freys that they kill her, although that wasn't even intended.

Stoneheart is what it is, no matter how much anyone wants anything to be true. Look, I'm not trying to make anyone believe it, neither do I claim to have proven anything conclusively. Yet it seems an interesting line of speculation to me, and not without any evidence altogether, which also isn't conclusively contradicted by any source material.

Frankly, I am very much surprised this theory receives such a reaction of outright denial. It's not me wanting it to be true, it's you inexplicably fervently desiring it to be untrue.

Long Baroque answers aside,
1: Varamyr warged once into thistle and failed, then he warged into the wolf as he was dying. There has not been anything in the books about anyone warging from their second life. Done 
2: Robb, assuming he has the same abilities as Arya, rickon, Bran and Jon could have warged into Grey Wind at his death, but then Grey wind was killed so as in #1 above, Robb in no way could have warged into cat and then been brought back as Stoneheart. That is the the topic at hand so also, Done.
3: Lady Stoneheart is a shell of a former Catelyn Stark who when brought back against the wishes of a red priest appears to be stuck in the rage and horror of her last moments before death, much like how Beric lost everything about himself except the mission he was on the first time he was killed. 
This subject, while interesting has ZERO evidence, textual in the Books or Apps or anything else official from G.R.R.M. Therefore, you shouldn't be surprised  that there is so much outright denial backed up with evidence from the books. Ignoring the confirmation from the story is why it is obvious you want it to be true, leaving only fervent denials left for you to hear 

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22 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

Long Baroque answers aside,
1: Varamyr warged once into thistle and failed, then he warged into the wolf as he was dying. There has not been anything in the books about anyone warging from their second life. Done 
2: Robb, assuming he has the same abilities as Arya, rickon, Bran and Jon could have warged into Grey Wind at his death, but then Grey wind was killed so as in #1 above, Robb in no way could have warged into cat and then been brought back as Stoneheart. That is the the topic at hand so also, Done.
3: Lady Stoneheart is a shell of a former Catelyn Stark who when brought back against the wishes of a red priest appears to be stuck in the rage and horror of her last moments before death, much like how Beric lost everything about himself except the mission he was on the first time he was killed. 
This subject, while interesting has ZERO evidence, textual in the Books or Apps or anything else official from G.R.R.M. Therefore, you shouldn't be surprised  that there is so much outright denial backed up with evidence from the books. Ignoring the confirmation from the story is why it is obvious you want it to be true, leaving only fervent denials left for you to hear 

1. & 2. Varamyr warged into Thistle and failed, then he died, then he warged into his wolf. Why couldn't it be that Robb tried to warg into Grey Wind and failed, then both died, then Robb settled in Catelyn? Is there any conclusive evidence against this assumption? I've yet to see it.

3. Sure, this fits perfectly. Same as UnCat being Robb.

As to "ZERO evidence", for the third (and, hopefully, final) time:

- a warg dies nearby, and Thistle screams and claws at her face; a warg dies nearby, and Catelyn screams and claws at her face.

- Jon whispers "Ghost" while dying and possibly wargs into him; Robb whispers "Grey Wind" while dying.

What other evidence do you need to simply consider a possibility? It surely would be a stupid thing to proclaim this theory canon based on this evidence, meager as it is. But dismiss it at once? So the aforementioned similarities mean absolutely nothing? There's not a slightest chance it could actually subtly point at something? And as to "outright denial backed up with evidence from the books", again, I've yet to see such evidence. Everything that has been presented so far can well be explained either way.

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19 minutes ago, Minstral said:

Wow... the crackpot is really evolving around here. I remember when people set the bar at "Daario=Euron".

Oh, come on! "Daario=Euron" theory has absolutely no evidence in the books, not a slightest hint that might push a reader to think this way. It is based entirely in fantasy.

This theory has some potential clues in the books, at the very least.

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Your theory is super interesting, however a bit of a stretch for me personally. I greatly prefer the theme of Catelyn being the strong voice of reason who is so easily disregarded before her murder, and in her grief becomes the unrelenting merciless wraith who literally has lost her voice. 

A tiny nitpick I have with the whole thing is Robb's inherited Nedliness. If Stoneheart were Robb, would the BWB not be beheading Freys rather than hanging them? Would it not be Robb Stoneheart swinging the sword "himself"? I find it unsatisfying if the King in the North is not only betrayed and murdered over his honor, but then has to live a wretched second life in his dead mother while abandoning the honor he valued to his death. 

I will of course bring up the fact that Grey Wind was never confirmed dead, nor was Raynald Westerling. The author goes out of his way in Feast to suggest that just maybe the wolf got away and continues to live as Robb. But this point has probably been discussed to death so I will of course drop it fast (but I do firmly believe it for now). 

Semi related note, did we get a discrete idea of how long a warg's consciousness stays in their host animal after their main death?

All in all a great read and definitely outside the box.

 

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2 hours ago, Gwindor said:

Actually, what we learned from Varamyr's prologue is that Haggon believed that much, and taught Varamyr to believe the same. What we also learned from the same prologue is that Varamyr somehow managed to warg twice at his death, somewhat contradicting the very beliefs he and his mentor had held. He warged into Thistle, then his primary body died, then he somehow left her body, existed literally everywhere for a while, then warged into one of his wolves. How the hell did he do that, considering Haggon's beliefs? Well, we don't know. But why should we believe Haggon in the first place? Had he been there? Had he died already and gotten to know what really happens then? Do you know what will happen to you after death? You don't. You may have some beliefs, but you can't possibly know for sure until you die. And then you don't come back to tell the tale, so none of the living can know anything certain about death. Why should it be any different for a warg?

Actually, Varamyr tried to warg Thistle, she fought and rejected his presence, and he found his wolves before his body died:

For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes... Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself. That was his last thought as a man. True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. 

Varamyr learned how to be a skinchanger from Haggon; Haggon learned from someone before him, who learned from someone before him, it is not as though Haggon just pulled his ideas out of thin air. Jon and Varamyr both could sense Orell's presence in his bird, givining credence to Haggon's teachings. Haggon's knowledge was likely gathered through a combination of personal experiences and the recountings and teachings of other skinchangers. There is no reason to doubt his teachings.

 

I also think the one thing you are forgetting is we are in Catelyn's POV the entire time she and Robb are dying, and there is no mention of a foreign presence in her mind. She watches Robb die, with a Bolton sword thrust through his heart, proceeds to cut Jinglebell's throat, tear her face to shreds, and finally have her own throat slit. Her dying thoughts go from Ned, to their children, and back to Ned again, with her final thought being "No, don't, don't cut my hair, Ned loves my hair" and then she dies with nary a mention of another presence. Ned loves my hair is not a thought that could possibly be attributed to Robb. We also do not know the actual timeline of Grey Wind's death as compared to Robb's. We know the slaughters in the dining hall and out in the yard were happening simultaneously, but Grey Wind easily could have preceded Robb in death, or he just as easily could have outlasted Cat.

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14 minutes ago, Gwindor said:

Oh, come on! "Daario=Euron" theory has absolutely no evidence in the books, not a slightest hint that might push a reader to think this way. It is based entirely in fantasy.

This theory has some potential clues in the books, at the very least.

I'm not going to go into a long post here, not because I don't want to offer some constructive criticism, but because I don't have the time right now. The "D=E" has/had adherents even though it was nonsense, simply because they they misinterpreted what they read (or made things up to gain attention at times). I simply believe that the "potential clues" that you highlight are misinterpreted and there exists already valid reasons in the text (eg. Stoneheart is how she is because of trauma and the potential for R'hollor resurrection erases a a portion of a persons memories/identity).

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4 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Actually, Varamyr tried to warg Thistle, she fought and rejected his presence, and he found his wolves before his body died

Yes, that's right, I misremembered the exact sequence, my bad. Still, this point is not crucial to the theory.

 

10 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

I also think the one thing you are forgetting is we are in Catelyn's POV the entire time she and Robb are dying, and there is no mention of a foreign presence in her mind. She watches Robb die, with a Bolton sword thrust through his heart, proceeds to cut Jinglebell's throat, tear her face to shreds, and finally have her own throat slit. Her dying thoughts go from Ned, to their children, and back to Ned again, with her final thought being "No, don't, don't cut my hair, Ned loves my hair" and then she dies with nary a mention of another presence. Ned loves my hair is not a thought that could possibly be attributed to Robb.

Actually, now that I've reread this passage, it does look somewhat weird.

Quote

The tears burned like vinegar as they ran down her cheeks. Ten fierce ravens were raking her face with sharp talons and tearing off strips of flesh, leaving deep furrows that ran red with blood. She could taste it on her lips.

It hurts so much, she thought. Our children, Ned, all our sweet babes. Rickon, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Robb... Robb... please, Ned, please, make it stop hurting... The white tears and the red ones ran together until her face was torn and tattered, the face that Ned had loved. Catelyn Stark raised her hands and watched the blood run down her long fingers, over her wrists, beneath the sleeves of her gown. Slow red worms crawled along her arms and under her clothes. It tickles. That made her laugh until she screamed. "Mad," someone said, "she's lost her wits,"...

It looks like Cat doesn't realize that the "fierce ravens" are her own fingers, at least until she looks at her hands (and even then, she seems rather confused). So another option becomes possible: it wasn't Catelyn clawing at her face, it was actually Robb, terrified and not understanding what was happening (unlike Varamyr, who warged into Thistle knowing what he was doing, in Robb's case it happened accidentally). In the confusion of the moment, Catelyn could have not immediately sensed an alien presence, nor would it be that much alien as in Thistle's case. That's not to mention that Thistle is of the Free Folk, and, unlike Catelyn, aware of the very existence of wargs.

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15 hours ago, tallTale said:

I'm not sure Robb is even ready to warg humans anyways. Even a more trained skin-changer like Varamyr has all kinds of problems doing that. 

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that one must be ready or prepared in some way for warging. Obviously it would come more easily and naturally the more you used and understood it, but Bran accidentally warged Hodor at Queenscrown, and was just as shocked by it as Hodor. 

Granted, Hodor seems to have some space in his head to fit another consciousness in there, but even he finds it unpleasant and unnatural. Bran, however, becomes better at it as time goes on. Even *if* Robb had somehow managed to take over Cat which drove her to madness, or upon her body's reanimation, I would imagine he would attempt to find someone like Hodor to "trade off" into - someone with a reasonably sound body but lacking some marbles. 

Wouldn't it be spectacular if he managed to warg his way on down to KL and be the "magic" that reanimated UnGregor, and is now just biding his time a bit. 

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3 minutes ago, LadyoftheNorth72 said:

Even *if* Robb had somehow managed to take over Cat which drove her to madness, or upon her body's reanimation, I would imagine he would attempt to find someone like Hodor to "trade off" into - someone with a reasonably sound body but lacking some marbles.

On this, I agree with most here: he cannot warg into someone else from Cat's body. He's trapped there. When his primary body was dying, he, as a warg, had a chance to get a second life. He tried to warg into Grey Wind, but that failed, so he tried to settle in Catelyn and died with her. Now when Beric resurrects Catelyn, we may assume it is still Robb in there, but the warging powers are lost.

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1 hour ago, Gwindor said:

1. & 2. Varamyr warged into Thistle and failed, then he died, then he warged into his wolf. Why couldn't it be that Robb tried to warg into Grey Wind and failed, then both died, then Robb settled in Catelyn? Is there any conclusive evidence against this assumption? I've yet to see it.

3. Sure, this fits perfectly. Same as UnCat being Robb.

As to "ZERO evidence", for the third (and, hopefully, final) time:

- a warg dies nearby, and Thistle screams and claws at her face; a warg dies nearby, and Catelyn screams and claws at her face.

- Jon whispers "Ghost" while dying and possibly wargs into him; Robb whispers "Grey Wind" while dying.

What other evidence do you need to simply consider a possibility? It surely would be a stupid thing to proclaim this theory canon based on this evidence, meager as it is. But dismiss it at once? So the aforementioned similarities mean absolutely nothing? There's not a slightest chance it could actually subtly point at something? And as to "outright denial backed up with evidence from the books", again, I've yet to see such evidence. Everything that has been presented so far can well be explained either way.

1: Varamyr never got into thistle, and he was still alive when he entered the wolf. 
2: The most powerful warg beyond the wall is dying near thistle, she screams and claws at her face and varamyr fails
    An untrained warg unaware of his abilities  dies near cat and she claws her eyes as she dies, maybe he tried but unsuccessfully, like with thistle
3: I have considered it, and find it to be a poor theory that isn't backed up. So, no, the similarities do not show Robb warged into his dying mother after he was dead and went to his wolf. It is wishful thinking that came about because there is a 5 year gap between books. Also, you do not seem to understand how evidence works. The burden of proof is on you, and so far, the similarity between the death of a woman who was unable to be skinchanged by the most powerful skinchanger among the wildlings, and the death of another woman who is the mother of an untrained skinchanger who has never actually skinchanged with his wolf, and then assuming he would be successful in occupying his mom's corpse, after he skinchanges with his pet for the first time is not great proof. Pure and simple, and you choosing to  ignore all the rational points against is your issue. the burden of proof is always on the one making the claim.  

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Honestly, the biggest evidence to me against Robb having even tried to warg into Cat is that we are in her POV, and here's what it describes to me: a thoroughly broken woman who believes every child she has born to be dead or utterly lost to her, whose behavior has become increasingly erratic and driven by grief and depression, absolutely losing her mind. I have four birth and three adopted children myself, and I cannot imagine remaining sane if something ever happened to just one of them. 

Also, Thistle was quite obviously very aware of exactly what was happening to her when Varamyr tried to take her. Cat shows no such conscious knowledge and frankly if she had, I think she'd gladly have given up her physical body so Robb could live on, bizarre a life as it would be. I think she would even have been relieved that he had a second chance, no matter how unnatural. 

I don't mean to stomp on anyone's theories or say they're impossible or total nonsense, just discussing the different facets of the idea. 

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18 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

1: Varamyr never got into thistle, and he was still alive when he entered the wolf. 

Yes, he entered the wolf immediately after, if not before, his death, I stand corrected on this point. But he did get into Thistle and was fighting with her over her body:

Quote

She sucked down a mouthful of the frigid air, and Varamyr had half a heartbeat to glory in the taste of it and the strength of this young body before her teeth snapped together and filled his mouth with blood. She raised her hands to his face. He tried to push them down again, but the hands would not obey, and she was clawing at his eyes. Abomination, he remembered, drowning in blood and pain and madness. When he tried to scream, she spat their tongue out.

So, sure as hell there was some time when those two people shared one body.

 

22 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

2: The most powerful warg beyond the wall is dying near thistle, she screams and claws at her face and varamyr fails

He was almost dead, injured, starved, and cold, which must have made him considerably less powerful.

 

40 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

The burden of proof is on you, and so far, the similarity between the death of a woman who was unable to be skinchanged by the most powerful skinchanger among the wildlings, and the death of another woman who is the mother of an untrained skinchanger who has never actually skinchanged with his wolf, and then assuming he would be successful in occupying his mom's corpse, after he skinchanges with his pet for the first time is not great proof. Pure and simple, and you choosing to  ignore all the rational points against is your issue. the burden of proof is always on the one making the claim.

We don't actually have enough information to make definite conclusions about whether or not a certain warg is able to warg into a certain being under certain circumstances. Maybe Robb and Cat being close relatives changes the equation somehow, maybe Varamyr's proximity to some Others (I presume they were near due to Thistle rising with blue eyes) influenced something - we don't know.

I have provided proof, such as it is. Sure it's not great, we wouldn't be having this discussion if I had something more definitive. But your "rational points against" are no more rational than my proof. It's more like "nah, that's not proof enough, it just doesn't feel right in my gut".

I present a theory, backed up by some (admittedly not great, but still) evidence. I don't want it to be true or untrue, I merely say this is something to discuss. I'm perfectly happy with both traditional explanation of UnCat, and my theory, except that the latter incorporates certain details from the story in a more interesting (IMHO) way. But if it's wrong, it's wrong, UnCat is UnCat, well and good.

If there's someone here wanting something to be true or untrue, that's not me.

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44 minutes ago, LadyoftheNorth72 said:

Honestly, the biggest evidence to me against Robb having even tried to warg into Cat is that we are in her POV, and here's what it describes to me: a thoroughly broken woman who believes every child she has born to be dead or utterly lost to her, whose behavior has become increasingly erratic and driven by grief and depression, absolutely losing her mind. I have four birth and three adopted children myself, and I cannot imagine remaining sane if something ever happened to just one of them. 

Sure, there's nothing wrong with this explanation. An explanation in terms of my theory is, however, also possible. You see, if what I suggest is true, GRRM wouldn't give it away at once, so he couldn't write explicitly about someone warging into Catelyn. I was always wondering just why her clawing at her face is described so obscurely. Well, she was overcome with grief, so it's possible she was not aware she was ravaging herself with her own fingers.

48 minutes ago, LadyoftheNorth72 said:

Also, Thistle was quite obviously very aware of exactly what was happening to her when Varamyr tried to take her. Cat shows no such conscious knowledge and frankly if she had, I think she'd gladly have given up her physical body so Robb could live on, bizarre a life as it would be. I think she would even have been relieved that he had a second chance, no matter how unnatural. 

Thistle knew very well wargs existed, having lived beyond the Wall. For Catelyn, if it happened, it must have been incomprehensible. Also, if you admit Catelyn could have been so mad with grief she didn't notice clawing at her own face with her own fingers (to her, it was more like "something's attacking my face... it hurts... there's blood on my hands..."), then you must also admit, that in this condition she could have failed to promptly understand someone's trying to get inside her head. Maybe she even mistook Robb's presence for Ned in her madness, and that's why started complaining to him and pleading to stop her pain.

So, first she didn't even notice anything, then began to notice something weird, but couldn't exactly put her finger on it, and up till the end she couldn't possibly understand exactly what was happening, therefore couldn't really be relieved with Robb's second chance.

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What an interesting theory! Even though the whole idea appears preposterous initially, you've undoubtedly made some very astute observations and support them with sound arguments. I've spent a couple of days thinking about this and on account of my own study of warging and skinchanging (recently updated and published here), I'm inclined to think this theory has merit. Actually, I'm convinced you're right. In fact, IMO, the tiny clues indentified are just the sort of thing to look out for when it comes to discovering or unravelling some of the deeper mysteries in the narrative. I'm happy to provide some additional support.

1. Ten long knives: Catelyn's disfigurement of her own face is rather extreme and though emotion can lend one physical strength, the parallel between Thistle's clawing and Catelyn's raking is fortified by the description of Thistle's fingers when she rises as as night: Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. Catelyn tearing her face to shreds absolutely evokes these sharp knives and they provide another clue to what's really going on in the background.

2. The GoHH: the observation here is very relevant because the text shows that the GoHH is capable of detecting wargs, (or at the very least, supernatural ability in a person). She senses Arya's nature: I see you,” she whispered. “I see you, wolf child. Blood child.
Note that when Thistle rises as a wight, she is actually able to detect Varamyr spirit, now installed in his wolf. George's phrasing here matches Varamyr's thoughts as he sees Thistle rising: "She see me". There are even more parallels but this will do for the moment.

In view of the fact that  "one skinchanger can see another", this is remarkable in itself. Thistle never even recognized Varamyr the person during their mutal flight from the Wall. How was she suddenly able to discern his warg nature in death? The implication here is clear - in death, Thistle appears to have become a warg and the only way she could have acquired the ability was via the struggle for her body. Varamyr fails, but his soul does manage to penetrate her body for a short while, via her head, as the text very clearly demostrates in that prologue chapter. When you read it again, you'll discover that the spiritual fight occurred predominantly in Thistle's head. Amongst other clues, Varamyr specifically states that 'she bit off their tongue'. Via this mingling of their two spirits, Thistle actually becomes a warg. All of this is in line with Haggon's and Bloodraven's teachings on skinchanging, especially the idea that skinchangers leave 'a shadow on the soul' of the creatures they inhabit. So. We have another parallel between LS and Thistle: A warg-soul within the body of an undead person. 

3. The importance of hair:
Varamyr does two things that we can connect with Catelyn's behaviour shortly before she dies: 

  • his spirit enters Thistle's body through her head
  • he cuts of locks of hair from the women brought to him by his shadowcat (can't resist a smile here - hehe)

What are Cat's last thoughts? No, don't, don't cut my hair, Ned loves my hair How fitting! This parallel is so damn clever, I'm totally in awe of George!  Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Okay, what is the significance of hair in relation to warging? I've been working on this topic lately and am so happy to have discovered proof of its significance in terms of the narrative. I'll be brief:

  • in voodoo and other spiritual traditions, hair, as well as other body trimmings such as nails, are the prime means by which a sorceror or witch gains power over a victim. Melisandre also uses items belonging to one person to glamour another. Glamouring involves illusion as well as binding the soul of the glamoured individual to the sorceress. 
     
  • in almost all spiritual traditions, hair is thought to protect an individual. Long hair in particular is viewed as an important factor in respect of spiritual attacks on the owner. Because of this Yogis take special care of their hair and wear it in special styles designed to enhance its protective qualities. Shaving off one's hair is tantamount to exposing oneself to spiritual attack. Aside from that, hair is percieved as the physical part of the body that is in tune with our intuition. It serves as a kind of antenna, and is responsible for instinctively detecting unseen 'vibes', danger etc in one's surroundings. The power of long hair has even been tested and confirmed. Why is this so? Well, its quite simple - negative forces are thought to enter the body through the brow chakra (the third eye) and the crown chakra, located at the crown of the head. Hair protects this region.

For Catelyn to perceive her hair being cut and to worry about it just before she dies is highly significant! Think also of Cersei, whose entire body hair is shaved off before her walk of shame. She loses her golden crowning glory and with it her power. Think of all that emphasis on golden hair, the golden crowns of her children, all the references to Cat's and Sansa's beautiful thick hair - or red hair, that is kissed by fire. Studying magic in the main story is one of my main interests. Believe me, all this stuff is significant. But I'm not finished yet. There's one more connection worth mentioning.

4. The "thing in the night":
Catelyn, Thistle and Tyrion are all linked to "the thing in the night". There's an older thread started by Mithras on it here. The subject fascinated me so much that I've done a study as well, part of which I published in my analysis of skinchanging  mentioned above.

In conclusion, while I appreciate the arguments against this theory, my feeling is that George has hidden another aspect of skinchanging in the story of Lady Stoneheart.  

Thanks for your great insights Gwindor :thumbsup:. It's been a great help in solving a couple of finer points and connecting the dots to stuff I've been working on. I would love to cite this and combine it with my observations if I may.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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