Lady Stoneheart is actually Robb Stark

[Gwindor]

Specifically regarding this:

On 2/23/2016 at 8:31 PM, The Answer said:

This whole thread leads me to believe there could be tons of people walking around Westeros who are not who they appear to be.

So it would seem. And there are many theories like that. However, my theory differs in that it doesn't derive from an assumption that some character just has to be still alive somehow, and then goes to find a suitable 'vessel' character (for example, Syrio Forel speculations).

On the contrary, my theory derives from an observation that a certain character displays behavior very similar to that of a person possessed by a warg, under circumstances which in principle allow such an explanation. Then I go about demonstrating that the assumption doesn't lead to a contradiction with any explicitly stated information from the source material. In fact, it even has one advantage over the 'traditional' view on Lady Stoneheart: it explains the curiosity of why Catelyn's behavior so strikingly resembles Thistle's.

While this hypothesis, for instance,

On 2/23/2016 at 8:31 PM, The Answer said:

Specific to Robb...and acknowledging this theory is insane and unlikely  -  he could also very well be the missing Raynald Westerling.  Ray released Grey Wind just before his death.  If Robb's consciousness attempted to overtake Grey Wind only to find him dead already, he could have jumped into his buddy instead.  

does nothing to explain anything, the aforementioned similarity in particular. Of course, it is strictly speaking possible, but it does follow a (IMHO) counter-productive pattern "let's assume we believe that Robb survived" -> "Now who could he possess?" -> "Oh, maybe Raynard!".

Compare to "Catelyn claws at her face just like Thistle, interesting" -> "Maybe she's being warged into?" -> "Who's the closest warg?" -> "Oh, it's Robb, and he's dying, just like Varamyr!".

In my opinion, there's a big difference.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

5 hours ago, Gwindor said:

See, it's not like Robb wakes up in Catelyn's body and goes "Woohoo, I live once more! Now I've got some unfinished business, let's go kill some Freys." It is a soul which has experienced tremendous, unimaginable horrors: murder of himself and his wolf (it is, btw, correct that we don't know the exact sequence of events, so Robb might or might not have been able to warg into Grey Wind during the slaughter at all), the shock of finding himself struggling with his mother for control over her body (I do now firmly believe in the later addition to my theory, that it was Robb's consciousness that was controlling Catelyn's hands and clawing at her face in terror and confusion), then another murder (btw, in this case we could perhaps call UnCat/Robb 'a child of three deaths', a possible reference to Dany's visions in THotU, but I'm adding that just as an offhand remark), and then resurrection in the same horrendous condition, in the same alien body, now terribly damaged and starting to decay, and maybe still sharing it with his mother's consciousness. It is not about a second chance for revenge. It is about the loss of identity, definitely an important narrative theme in ASoIaF, and if we assume my theory true, for a moment, than that's about as far as the loss of identity gets.

When, for example, Jaime loses his sword hand, he has a very serious identity crisis. "I was that hand." Yet, horrible as his loss is, he still has the rest of his body, his name, his social status. Yes, he wonders at the question who he is, but at least he's still human. But who is Robb, if he's stuck in the body of his dead mother? Indeed, what is he? Most importantly, what could possibly be the purpose of existence of such a creature? Humans have difficulties figuring out their own purpose, and they've had hundreds of generations to contemplate on the subject. But Robb's condition actually defies some the most basic knowledge about the world. This cannot be, this should not be, yet it is.

...

But, if instead of "Go Cat!" we focus on the questions of identity and purpose of existence of such a creature, then that makes a much stronger narrative, and definitely more GRRM-style. And the creature which is a dead man's soul occupying a dead body of his dead mother, or sharing it with her seems much more interesting to explore in terms of identity, than 'just' a resurrected dead woman.

Catelyn's resurrection as Lady Stoneheart is an identity crisis in itself. In the period between Ned's behaeding and the Red Wedding, whenever someone promises Cat they will seek vengeance for her losses, her thoughts are along the line of "will that bring Ned/Bran/Rickon/Sansa/Arya back to me? No." Lady Catelyn does not want vengeance, she only wants her remaining children returned to her safely. Lady Stoneheart not only wants vengeance but is actively seeking it. Her mind has been warped by hate. Whereas Jaime becomes a better person after the loss of his indentities-hand, Lady Catelyn has become more terrible. The concept of loss of one's identity is already prevalent throughout the books, do we really need Robb-as-Catelyn-as-Stoneheart to further drive it home?

Quote

When an author breaks the rule that what is dead, stays dead, he'd better do it for a damn good narrative reason. Elsewise, is Lysa dead? Is Maester Aemon? Rhaegar? Renly? Tywin? Joffrey? Balon? The Old Bear? Ser Rodrik? The list goes on and on.

The author has already broken this rule over and over again, starting from the very first chapter. Bran, Rickon, Arya, Davos, Jon Connington, Dany, Theon, have all been thought to be dead at some point in the series, but have since been shown to be alive. Jon Snow appears to be dying but everyone seems to agree we have not seen the last of him, the disagreement is mainly over how he will reappear. Thistle, Waymar Royce, Small Paul, and any number of Wildings and other men of the Nights Watch have died only to return as Others. Qyburn has been experimenting with reanimation, the Hound is dead but Sandor may live, (f)Aegon may be Aegon or a Blackfyre or a Brightflame or a kid from the streets with Valyrian looks. After all, what is dead may never die. 

Catelyn's resurrection as Lady Stoneheart has textual precedence in the form of Thoros and Beric; her resurrection follows the same process as Beric's resurrections, one of which we saw happen on page following the Hound's trial, prior to the Red Wedding. Varamyr's prologue shows a strong, experienced warg, once capable of maintaining control over six other beings, is incapable of warging a new human body as they are dying, and as you have said we have no idea of Robb's warging abilities, but we do know he has had no warg training.

You have raised an interesting point regarding Robb's potential freak out, but for me, the crux of the matter is this: if Robb did warg his mother prior to both of them dying, and now both minds occupy the body of Lady Stoneheart, how are we going to find this out, who is going to tell us? And what is Robb's Lady Stoneheart going to accomplish that Catelyn's Lady Stoneheart cannot? 

[Gwindor]

3 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Catelyn's resurrection as Lady Stoneheart is an identity crisis in itself. In the period between Ned's behaeding and the Red Wedding, whenever someone promises Cat they will seek vengeance for her losses, her thoughts are along the line of "will that bring Ned/Bran/Rickon/Sansa/Arya back to me? No." Lady Catelyn does not want vengeance, she only wants her remaining children returned to her safely. Lady Stoneheart not only wants vengeance but is actively seeking it. Her mind has been warped by hate. Whereas Jaime becomes a better person after the loss of his indentities-hand, Lady Catelyn has become more terrible. The concept of loss of one's identity is already prevalent throughout the books, do we really need Robb-as-Catelyn-as-Stoneheart to further drive it home?

No, we don't really need Robb-as-Catelyn-as-Stoneheart. My theory, as I have previously stated, is not strictly necessary to provide narrative opportunities, nor to explain anything except the striking similarity of Catelyn's and Thistle's stories.

24 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

The author has already broken this rule over and over again, starting from the very first chapter. Bran, Rickon, Arya, Davos, Jon Connington, Dany, Theon, have all been thought to be dead at some point in the series, but have since been shown to be alive. Jon Snow appears to be dying but everyone seems to agree we have not seen the last of him, the disagreement is mainly over how he will reappear. Thistle, Waymar Royce, Small Paul, and any number of Wildings and other men of the Nights Watch have died only to return as Others. Qyburn has been experimenting with reanimation, the Hound is dead but Sandor may live, (f)Aegon may be Aegon or a Blackfyre or a Brightflame or a kid from the streets with Valyrian looks. After all, what is dead may never die.

Well, there's a difference between hearing rumors of someone's death and seeing it for yourself through some character's eyes. Yes, there are ice zombies, but I wouldn't call what happens to them 'resurrection' either.

27 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Catelyn's resurrection as Lady Stoneheart has textual precedence in the form of Thoros and Beric; her resurrection follows the same process as Beric's resurrections, one of which we saw happen on page following the Hound's trial, prior to the Red Wedding.

And yes, there's Beric. And it's kind of possible to turn this evidence in favor of my theory. We have already explored the theme of coming back to life and how it transforms a human. Really, the only difference would be readers' greater emotional investment in Catelyn's character, after all, we barely knew Beric. So do we really need resurrected Catelyn to further drive it home?  I intentionally mimic your phrasing to emphasize: if your argument is legit, so is mine. And if mine isn't...  

39 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Varamyr's prologue shows a strong, experienced warg, once capable of maintaining control over six other beings, is incapable of warging a new human body as they are dying, and as you have said we have no idea of Robb's warging abilities, but we do know he has had no warg training.

I never meant Robb intentionally warged Catelyn. If it happened, it happened instinctively (at the point of death) and accidentally. And people can do extraordinary stuff in extraordinary situations. And they were close relatives, which might have made it easier for all we know. I have said all of this before, and I don't claim it 'proves' anything. It's just that we don't know exactly how all of this works, and therefore, cannot conclusively disprove this theory at the moment.

The fact some people seem to not understand: this whole theory is a speculation on topic:

"What if Catelyn ravaging her face didn't just coincidentally resemble Thistle's behavior when she was being warged by Varamyr? What if Catelyn was being warged?"

So we proceed, all the time assuming Catelyn was being warged, and until we find completely indisputable evidence that she couldn't have been warged, I see no reason to abandon this speculation. Opinions like "well, I don't know, it seems unlikely Robb had enough skill to warg into Catelyn" do not count as indisputable evidence. As of yet, everything fits with the theory with perhaps only a little stretch, so I see particularly little reason to abandon this speculation.

53 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

if Robb did warg his mother prior to both of them dying, and now both minds occupy the body of Lady Stoneheart, how are we going to find this out, who is going to tell us?

Thank you especially for this question, as I have long wanted to address this issue and somehow was always forgetting.

For example, the Blackfish. He's escaped Riverrun and most probably will meet Lady Stoneheart very soon. I can elaborate on this subject, if need be, but for now I'll assume you already know about it. Brynden was with Robb in the West, unlike Catelyn, so if Robb is in Cat's body he can prove himself to the Blackfish by telling him something only two of them witnessed, or a conversation between only two of them. I'm not saying it will happen like that, but Blackfish is heading to LS, and Robb could possibly prove him he's Robb, despite his current appearance, so that's an option at least.

There's also another interesting option.

Do you know this theory about Tywin having been poisoned before Tyrion shot him? You know, Oberyn's remarks, peculiarities of Tywin's face color during his last days, a visit to privy long enough for Shae to fall asleep. And belly wounds aren't exactly immediately lethal, so it's more likely Tywin died of some poison which was concentrating somewhere in his intestines and got to his blood stream due to the wound. Also he was decaying exceptionally badly. I think most people would accept this theory as almost canon, if they even contemplated upon the subject. But can we realistically expect it to be revealed in future books? I doubt it. I think it more likely that it will remain a subtly hidden minor mystery for attentive readers. This could also be the case for my theory. In fact, I think it would be especially interesting if this was never revealed, but also never explicitly contradicted. After all:

1 hour ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

And what is Robb's Lady Stoneheart going to accomplish that Catelyn's Lady Stoneheart cannot? 

The short and honest answer would be: I have no idea.

But maybe even nothing! Maybe the whole point of this plotline will deal with the ridiculously huge role of appearances in their society. He's Robb Stark, Lord Eddard's heir, King in the North, and yet for all the world he is Catelyn Stark's corpse, not staying dead for some reason. He cannot assume his rule, he cannot produce an heir to continue his line (well, maybe it's kind of physically possible, but I don't want to explore THAT idea any further), nothing. That would be a new layer of tragedy for GRRM to explore.

But, generally, all I can say is that I expect a tremendously tragic arc for this character, maybe something beyond what we've seen in the series so far. BTW, that's regardless of whether my theory is true or not. No even remotely happy endings for Lady Stoneheart, whatever it is, sorry. So I wouldn't speak about it in terms of accomplishments, but rather like:

In what way can Robb's Lady Stoneheart suffer that Catelyn's Lady Stoneheart cannot?

[The Answer]

5 hours ago, Gwindor said:

Specifically regarding this:

So it would seem. And there are many theories like that. However, my theory differs in that it doesn't derive from an assumption that some character just has to be still alive somehow, and then goes to find a suitable 'vessel' character (for example, Syrio Forel speculations).

On the contrary, my theory derives from an observation that a certain character displays behavior very similar to that of a person possessed by a warg, under circumstances which in principle allow such an explanation. Then I go about demonstrating that the assumption doesn't lead to a contradiction with any explicitly stated information from the source material. In fact, it even has one advantage over the 'traditional' view on Lady Stoneheart: it explains the curiosity of why Catelyn's behavior so strikingly resembles Thistle's.

While this hypothesis, for instance,

does nothing to explain anything, the aforementioned similarity in particular. Of course, it is strictly speaking possible, but it does follow a (IMHO) counter-productive pattern "let's assume we believe that Robb survived" -> "Now who could he possess?" -> "Oh, maybe Raynard!".

Compare to "Catelyn claws at her face just like Thistle, interesting" -> "Maybe she's being warged into?" -> "Who's the closest warg?" -> "Oh, it's Robb, and he's dying, just like Varamyr!".

In my opinion, there's a big difference.

Trust me, I love this.  Just figured I'd throw Ray into the mix since he was in the vicinity and mentioned later with an interesting/offscreen exit.   

People are quick to take GRRMs word as gospel that Robb's lack of POV is because, well just because... I tend to think Robb and Rickon's POVless involvement has more meaning and that meaning could very well be specific to their warging capabilities.  

 

 

[Eden-Mackenzie]

11 minutes ago, The Answer said:

Trust me, I love this.  Just figured I'd throw Ray into the mix since he was in the vicinity and mentioned later with an interesting/offscreen exit.   

People are quick to take GRRMs word as gospel that Robb's lack of POV is because, well just because... I tend to think Robb and Rickon's POVless involvement has more meaning and that meaning could very well be specific to their warging capabilities.  

I have it in my head that GRRM had said he regrets not giving Robb a POV, but I don't know the source. I do think it is interesting the only descriptions we have of warging come from the wargs themselves, no other POV has witnessed it. 

[Gwindor]

10 hours ago, The Answer said:

Trust me, I love this.  Just figured I'd throw Ray into the mix since he was in the vicinity and mentioned later with an interesting/offscreen exit.

Sorry, I just realized you weren't being sarcastic in your previous post, as was my assumption. 

Yeah, Ray's exit is definitely interesting. Of course it's unlikely he survived with his wounds, but still, nobody saw him die, and nobody saw the body. Narratively, I think this should mean something, otherwise it's just toying with reader's hopes  

Or not. Occasional MIA instead of 'confirmed dead' is pretty realistic, after all.

10 hours ago, The Answer said:

People are quick to take GRRMs word as gospel that Robb's lack of POV is because, well just because... I tend to think Robb and Rickon's POVless involvement has more meaning and that meaning could very well be specific to their warging capabilities.

Hmm, never thought about it. That's interesting. Really, Robb and Rickon are the only Starks who are not POVs (well, there's also Benjen). Of course, Rickon is three years old, but Robb... and with his storyline, that's really strange. Yeah, it's almost as if GRRM wanted to conceal something that happened in the West, for example.

On the other hand, that we see Robb mostly through Catelyn's eyes was a great narrative decision. Catelyn's chapters are so brilliantly written, it is literally the best literary depiction of a mother that I know of. Robb would not be able to perceive himself in such a complex and multi-faceted way (like in Catelyn's case - he's her son, but he's also her king, and it's just wonderful how GRRM managed to very convincingly convey this complicated view), mostly due to his youth and limited experience. From his own eyes, he (and everyone around) would look a rather one-dimensional character, definitely less 'real' then what Catelyn can see.

Still, it wouldn't have hurt to have an occasional Robb POV from time to time, in addition to Catelyn's POVs.

[Macgregor of the North]

On 1 February 2016 at 11:28 AM, Gwindor said:

For a long time already, we've all been used to the fact that Robb Stark is totally and irrepairably dead. But is he really?

After the publication of ADWD, the prologue of which provided some rather comprehensive insight into warging mechanics, it wasn't difficult to jump to a conclusion that Robb warged into Grey Wind before death. However, given that the wolf was also killed at about the same time, it would seem that any speculation regarding Robb's employment of his warging abilities in the moment of direst peril was destined to come to a dead end. But I believe that's just a very clever way GRRM is deceiving us, making us jump to a rather obvious, yet still subtle, conclusion, then dismiss it due to very compelling evidence, and... abandon this particular line of speculation altogether. You know, like "Oh, so wargs can get a second life, so Robb must have warged into Grey Wind and survived!!! Oh, wait, the wolf's dead too... That's a bummer... Well, what're you gonna do, let's move on to other theories." It seems to me just a thing GRRM would do, red-herring the readers to make them believe they've exhausted every opportunity in a particular topic of speculation before revealing something that in hindsight would look like "Oh my God, how could I possibly have missed that?! Especially given that I actually came to an almost similar conclusion!!!"

Let's go back to the Red Wedding chapter. The last words of Robb Stark were "Grey Wind". Now, this can be interpreted in different ways (like, admittedly, any piece of evidence that I have for my theory). It could just mean that Robb belatedly understood his wolf's peculiar behaviour towards the Freys and the Spicers. Note, however, that Jon Snow's last(?) word was, similarly, "Ghost". Of course, neither Jon nor Robb fully understood their powers, which basically means they were unable to use them at will, but it seems plausible to me to assume that a warg can instinctively transfer his/her consciousness SOMEWHERE upon death, whether or not they were aware of this opportunity. So, dying, Robb suddenly felt something weird happening, and then, realizing he had somehow begun to become his wolf, muttered in bewilderment "Grey Wind" (something like, "Oh gods, I am dying... something strange is happening... well, I suppose that's what dying means... but wait, it's like I now have another pair of eyes, which see something different than my own... and the sounds, and the strange incredibly sharp and clear scents... GREY WIND???"). Well, Grey Wind gets killed as well. But mind you (Varamyr is my witness), that doesn't necessarily mean all hope is lost for Robb. Robb's consciousness left his body as he lay dying, tried to settle in Grey Wind, and got kicked out at the wolf's death, or never even got a chance to try it, if Grey Wind was dead before Robb. I think this consciousness then tried in panic to attach itself to some living body. Varamyr, being an accomplished warg, could choose who to warg into, but Robb's consciousness was likely restricted to such living beings with whom Robb had some significant connection, the foremost (and spatially closest, which probably matters) of which being, of course, his mother Catelyn. Catelyn inflicted rather serious wounds upon her face after Robb's death, which can very conveniently be attributed to her madness from grief. To me, however, it screams of similarity with Thistle's behaviour when she clawed her eyes out and bit her tongue off after Varamyr warged into her. So it seems very possible that Catelyn's ravaging of her face wasn't driven by grief and sense of loss, but rather by confusion and terror of feeling someone alien inside her head.

The Ghost of High Heart had a prophetic dream about Catelyn's fate, and she "woke in terror" when a "woman that was fish... opened her eyes". Now why would this little old woman get so terrified? Of course, a long dead and starting to decay body suddenly displaying signs of life is frightening as hell, so that seems an obvious and completely satisfactory explanation, but again, it's my idea that GRRM has planted those "obvious explanations" in order to lead the readers off-track. The Ghost of High Heart is frequently associated with the Children of the Forest, and warging is also heavily associated with the latter, and Haggon (Varamyr's mentor) considered warging into humans "the worst abomination of all", so it seems very plausible to me that the albino dwarf was so terrified not by a dream of a zombie, but by a dream of a human body possessed with another human's consciousness (perhaps soul). She dreamt of the worst possible abomination, and that's what made her wake in terror.

In one of Arya's "wolf dreams", she witnessed Nymeria dragging Catelyn's body from the river and seemingly trying to revive her. Why would Nymeria do that? Why would the she-wolf pay any special attention to Catelyn's body in the first place? Of course, Catelyn was special for Arya, so, due to their bond, she had to also be special for Nymeria - that's the "obvious explanation". But none of the direwolves ever displayed any kind of special attitude towards anyone, except affectionate treatment of their soulmates (for lack of a better word, "master" seems somehow inappropriate), and hostile reaction to those posing danger to their soulmates. Well, Ghost did kind of befriend Melisandre, but that's most probably somehow magical. Now, Nymeria acting so sentimentally with the body in which she can feel the lingering presense of her brother's soulmate (or even Grey Wind himself) makes a little bit more sense to me.

If UnCat is indeed Robb, we wouldn't necessarily learn it from the BwB. In fact, I believe they don't know it. Imagine Robb waking up, having experienced his own death twice or thrice, to find himself in a horribly disfigured body of his dead mother. He is shocked and horrified, and he cannot speak comprehensively. By the time he pulled himself together, and by the time someone in the BwB learned to understand his speech, he could have chosen to keep his true identity unknown.

UnCat drastically differs from Catelyn we know. In fact, I often find it difficult to perceive them as one human, and not as two separate characters. Of course ("obvious explanation" time), death has changed her, death had previously changed Lord Beric Dondarrion, though not THAT MUCH. And of course ("obvious explanation" time continued), Catelyn's manner of death was much harsher than any of the six Beric's deaths, and she stayed dead much longer than he had, so that "obviously explains" her considerably more advanced stage of mental transformation, but still, I think it's actually easier to picture Robb in Cat's body, after everything he's gone through, ruthlessly exterminating the Freys and (especially!!!) intending to hang Brienne, than Catelyn herself. UnCat's behaviour is more like Robb than Catelyn to begin with, and mind also that if my theory is right, then Robb has gone through much more horrible things than Catelyn has. Also, recall UnCat fingering Robb's crown - that particular detail gets more meaning if it's actually Robb fingering his own crown.

TL;DR: Robb Stark instinctively warged into Grey Wind while dying, but the wolf was killed as well, so Robb's consciousness attached itself instead to the closest (spatially and relations-wise) live being - his mother Catelyn. Catelyn then died, and got resurrected, while still possessed by her son.

I commented on this post a while back, and I can't be bothered looking through all  the comments to see if anybody pointed this out to yet man but I thought you would like to see this.

From ASOS Sansa VI.

That night Sansa scarcely slept at all, but tossed and turned just as she had aboard the Merling King. She dreamt of Joffrey dying, but as he clawed at his throat and the blood ran down across his fingers she saw with horror that it was her brother Robb.

Made me think of your theory instantly. 

[Gwindor]

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I commented on this post a while back, and I can't be bothered looking through all  the comments to see if anybody pointed this out to yet man but I thought you would like to see this.

From ASOS Sansa VI.

That night Sansa scarcely slept at all, but tossed and turned just as she had aboard the Merling King. She dreamt of Joffrey dying, but as he clawed at his throat and the blood ran down across his fingers she saw with horror that it was her brother Robb.

Wow. It really makes sense.  

Thanks for the quote! Never noticed that.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, Gwindor said:

Wow. It really makes sense.  

Thanks for the quote! Never noticed that.

Not sure of the significance but when you read your theory then come across text like that it does set you to thinking. 

[Beorn Snow]

This sounds like what the writer of meathouse man would write.

 

[Lady Dyanna]

On 2/20/2016 at 8:10 AM, Evolett said:

What happens when a warg dies with no familiar alive to enter for a second life? That's the million dollar question

It certainly is, isn't it?

 

On 2/20/2016 at 8:10 AM, Evolett said:

When I stand back and look at this with an open mind, the question of whether a warg's spirit must find another host after his death does arise. Remember Varamyr died nine times in all. Each time he dies in a different host. And each time he saves his spirit (that's how we can view this) by entering another host. Now, he was an experienced skinchanger who received training from Haggon. That means he had quite a bit of control over his spirit and knew what he was doing. Remaining in the dead host animal would have meant his final, irrevocable death as well. 

Another version version of the million dollar question. I do think that the spirit is somehow tethered to his human body.  He might lose a part of himself with every host death, but I don't think that he could choose not to leave a host when that host dies. I would imagine that the only thing that can separate a skinchanger's tether to his body completely and permanently might be that body's physical death.

 

On 2/20/2016 at 8:10 AM, Evolett said:

Robb's case, the new host needn't have been his mother but it's clear her 'defences' were down. She was psychologically and emotionally devastated by what had transpired, making her 'easy prey' for a spiritual takeover 

Not only were her defenses down, but as Robb's mother, who would give up anything for him, who just offered her own life for his, even if she realized what was happening, would she even choose to fight it? Or would she submit in order to try to save Robb, at least in some part.  Notice that she does call out to Robb twice in the midst of this. It could just be her grief, but it could be something else.

 

On 2/20/2016 at 8:10 AM, Evolett said:

I'm certain the author conveys this by including that reference to cutting hair. Far Eastern philosophies believe in the concept of ‘soul flight’ and of the danger of being penetrated by an alien spirit. They have developed a whole range of spiritual and physical defences to prevent this sort of thing from happening. This idea is not new.

This also reminds me of some of the beliefs of Scientology.  Funny thing is, thing is, a lot of those beliefs were just being made public (the story of Xenu) in the mid nineties when Martin was working on the series and were quite controversial at the time.

 

On 2/20/2016 at 8:10 AM, Evolett said:

even in dreams when a warg is not consciously aware, his spirit actively seeks out its other half. This certainly suggests that a warg is compelled, perhaps even driven to finding a host – usually this will be the corresponding familiar animal but if it’s dead or otherwise unavailable (captured by another warg for instance, as Varamyr does with Haggon’s wolf), then the spirit will need an alternative.

This seems a logical conclusion to me.

 

On 2/20/2016 at 8:10 AM, Evolett said:

Theon's dream thus suggests and perhaps confirms Robb’s 'rising from the dead'. Catelyn lay dead for three days before she was raised. Had Beric not transferred his remaining ‘life fire’ to her, both she and Robb (if his spirit was indeed within her) would have remained well and truly dead. Perhaps there has been a blending of their souls – I think so, mainly because LS remembers Brienne’s oath and gives her a choice.

The only conflict I could see with this, is that the rest of the people there are known to be dead with no mention of a second life. Although, I have at times wondered if that's truly the case for Lyanna.  If Robb was in Catelyn, would he have been able to return, or was he pulled back when Catelyn was "revived?" Look at all of the older deceased Starks. They only appear as shadows. I'm thinking that might be because their spirits are trapped inside their crypts by iron.

[Evolett]

@Lady Dyanna Hair lore is really interesting. Surprisingly, there are a lot of beliefs attached to the presence, absence or length of hair as well as semi-scientific studies that appear to confirm it's role in perception. I feel quite sure the author makes use of this in the books. Just think of Cersei and her beloved golden crown of hair, those kissed by fire, the red and black hair and weird hair-styles of the Ghisacri in slavers bay; not to mention the Tyroshi fashion of dying hair as well as silver-gold Valyrian hair and all that. I doubt hair only serves a descriptive purpose meanwhile. 

[Lady Dyanna]

33 minutes ago, Evolett said:

@Lady Dyanna Hair lore is really interesting. Surprisingly, there are a lot of beliefs attached to the presence, absence or length of hair as well as semi-scientific studies that appear to confirm it's role in perception. I feel quite sure the author makes use of this in the books. Just think of Cersei and her beloved golden crown of hair, those kissed by fire, the red and black hair and weird hair-styles of the Ghisacri in slavers bay; not to mention the Tyroshi fashion of dying hair as well as silver-gold Valyrian hair and all that. I doubt hair only serves a descriptive purpose meanwhile. 

Not to mention the Dothraki custom of only cutting their hair in defeat and Dany's hair being burned off twice now.  Interesting thoughts! Definitely something to consider.

[awearyman]

OP's title alongside the gif animation is one of the funniest things I've seen in a while.

[Dorian Martell]

Four pages of discussion and all the op can say is "Well, you can't prove it didn't happen so it must have."
 

[Gwindor]

36 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

Four pages of discussion and all the op can say is "Well, you can't prove it didn't happen so it must have."

Please, don't write here until you learn the difference between 'must' and 'might'.

[Dorian Martell]

1 minute ago, Gwindor said:

Please, don't write here until you learn the difference between 'must' and 'might'.

The title of your thread leads me to believe you do not know the difference. Absolutes are Absolutes. 

[Gwindor]

17 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

The title of your thread leads me to believe you do not know the difference. Absolutes are Absolutes. 

Is there a forum rule that a thread's title should represent its contents 100% accurately? Am I not allowed to use a little exaggerated certainty in a title, just to draw attention to this thread?

After all, I hoped, people thus attracted would read my post and judge it by its contents rather than by its title. Would you perhaps like this thread more if it was called "Robb Stark possibly, however unlikely, might have warged into Catelyn, but it is by no means confirmed for a certainty"? Does that seem to be the problem?

[Dorian Martell]

1 minute ago, Gwindor said:

Is there a forum rule that a thread's title should represent its contents 100% accurately? Am I not allowed to use a little exaggerated certainty in a title, just to draw attention to this thread?

After all, I hoped, people thus attracted would read my post and judge it by its contents rather than by its title. Would you perhaps like this thread more if it was called "Robb Stark possibly, however unlikely, might have warged into Catelyn, but it is by no means confirmed for a certainty"? Does that seem to be the problem?

that would solve the problem quite nicely. It would not change the impossibility of it as demonstrated in the text of the books, but the title would be far more accurate, instead of proposing something absolute, having other users demonstrate conclusively by text in the novels that what you propose is impossible, and then backpedaling after the fact and then claiming a it is merely a possibility instead of an absolute. Still, it didn't happen.  Now, I will be more inclined to believe you if my theory that the great other is in fact the bastard child of Megatron and Optimus Prime is shown to be correct, because if that is true, then anything less crackpot can also be true. 

[Gwindor]

10 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

proposing something absolute, having other users demonstrate conclusively by text in the novels that what you propose is impossible, and then backpedaling after the fact and then claiming a it is merely a possibility instead of an absolute

This talk of absolutes, possibilities, and backpedaling is pathetic. I don't see how this is relevant at all. Do you perhaps consider rigidity of opinion a virtue?

As to 'conclusive demonstrations', I went back to check for them once more in case I missed something. Basically, it's like that:

1. Resurrected Catelyn makes more narrative sense than a resurrected monstrosity of merged Robb/Catelyn.
Not necessarily: see previous posts.

2. Interactions with Brienne become meaningless.
No, they don't. The whole thing may not necessarily be about Brienne's oath to Catelyn, her guilt/innocence, redemption or something like that. As I see it, Lady Stoneheart has gotten her hands on a person who could lead her to Jaime Lannister, and that is Stoneheart's primary interest. Again, this has been discussed, read the thread (!!! NOT JUST THE TITLE, THE THREAD !!!)

3. No indication of warging in the last Catelyn's POV.
Actually, there is something that can be read as indication. Reread that place from the book or have a look at the previous posts, it has been discussed.

4. It couldn't happen because warging doesn't work like that (reasons, reasons).
We don't know that, we've never before witnessed such a situation, who the hell knows what could happen there.

5. The great Varamyr failed to warg Thistle, so why should Robb succeed.
Varamyr was wounded, starved, and exhausted. Robb was in a life-threatening situation. That kind of changes their relative abilities. A power-lifter can carry much more weight than an average person, but an average person could probably lift a heavier object than a mortally wounded power-lifter, if their life depended on it. And anyway, we don't know how good a warg Robb was. Maybe his estrangement with Grey Wind had an additional reason: he had really developed his powers in the West (where we didn't see him), but not understanding what it was became scared and tried to shut it.

So where exactly is your 'conclusive demonstration of impossibility'? The theory has not been conclusively proven false, it remains a possibility, interesting to speculate upon, but in your narrow-minded arrogance you persist in your attempts to destroy it as if its mere existence were a personal offense to you. Maybe you can only comprehend "certainly happened" and "certainly didn't happen", so you just call everything uncertain impossible not to traumatize yourself, but I, for one, am perfectly comfortable with less definite kings of knowledge.

I get it, you don't like the theory and would probably go to Jihad against it, no matter what. You have expressed your opinion clearly on multiple occasions. Thanks for your input, but as it happens there are people with different opinions here, so I guess this thread just continues whether you like it or not. Feel free to move on, I don't really see how else you could contribute to the thread.