if R+L=J is true...

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

But there isn't any rumor that Jon Snow is actually a Targaryen, bastard or otherwise. If you mean, why didn't they start such a rumor, why would they? How would the idea of Jon Snow as a secret Targ even occur to anyone? There's nothing that connects Jon Snow to the Targs of all people.

That was my point. It doesn't seem to occur to anybody that Jon Snow may be other than what he seems to be. The only commentary on "Ned Stark's bastard" is about Ned, not about Jon. Jon is overlooked; he's not the subject of their speculations, Ned is.

Also, if Robert knew or suspected, why did Ned deflect or evade his questions and more importantly, keep Jon's Targaryen heritage secret from everyone including his wife and from Jon himself?

 

There is absolutely no reason why anyone would not suspect that a pregnancy resulted from Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna.  That combined with honorable Ned Stark appearing with a bastard of just the right age after the war and refusing to tell anyone who the mother was would be highly suspicious to anyone.  This leads to one of two possible conclusions:

A.  Everybody in Westeros is stupid and incredibly trusting, and has no interest in speculating about the origins of bastards or the possible results of kidnapped young ladies.

or

B.  Some people suspect that Jon is the bastard of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but their thoughts on the matter have not been revealed in the text.

I think B is much more likely.  GRRM is too good a writer for A to be true.

Why would Ned deflect or evade Robert's questions?  Because he does not want to admit he has been lying to Robert, and he is not sure that Robert knows.  He doesn't want to take the chance that Robert is one of the dumb people who haven't figured it out and will freak out when he finds out, but I think Robert has to suspect - he thinks about what Rhaegar and Lyanna were doing in the Tower of Joy more than anybody.  He respects his good friend Ned and trusts him to keep the secret, and his hatred of Targaryans is tempered by his knowing that Jon has been raised as a son of Ned and because Jon is also the son of the woman he is still in love with.

I know people who keep secrets from me, that are my friends, and I pretend to believe them when they say things that I know are lies, because I understand why they are keeping it secret and know that there's no point in confronting them about it - for instance, I had a good friend who was a closeted gay.  A lot of people and myself know he is gay, but because of his upbringing we understand why he can't admit it to us, and so I just nod and pretend to believe when he tells stories about girls he picked up at a club or wherever, which we never ever meet.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

There is absolutely no reason why anyone would not suspect that a pregnancy resulted from Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna.

Well, I'm not convinced that all that many people knew about Lyanna disappearing at all, much less with Rhaegar specifically. Even the (probable) handful who believe that he abducted her couldn't have known absolutely that he and she stayed together the whole time, nor that "kidnapping" automatically equals "banging". Lyanna disappeared and simply was not seen again, as far as anyone can tell (provided they have an inkling in the first place, which I believe not many do).

I'm not sure all that many people even know that Ned Stark has a bastard. After the war, Ned returned north and kept himself to himself, rarely leaving the North, and when the books open he had not even seen Robert for many years. The North is huge, remote and insular; far from the center of power and privilege. Not many southern lords have much of an incentive to go there and involve themselves in the family dynamics of the Starks.

I'm also not convinced that Robert B. knows or suspects Jon's parentage, unless you can show evidence from the text. I don't recall any intimation or hint from him that he does.

And, even if you don't like it, a huge reason to think that hardly anybody connects Jon Snow to Lyanna and Rhaegar is that hardly anybody does. That doesn't automatically make them stupid (and it doesn't make GRRM a bad writer either); it mainly means that any Westerosi who might be interested are working with the information that they have - and not working with information that they (most likely) have no reason or cause to know.

 

[purple-eyes]

9 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Well, I'm not convinced that all that many people knew about Lyanna disappearing at all, much less with Rhaegar specifically. Even the (probable) handful who believe that he abducted her couldn't have known absolutely that he and she stayed together the whole time, nor that "kidnapping" automatically equals "banging". Lyanna disappeared and simply was not seen again, as far as anyone can tell (provided they have an inkling in the first place, which I believe not many do).

I'm not sure all that many people even know that Ned Stark has a bastard. After the war, Ned returned north and kept himself to himself, rarely leaving the North, and when the books open he had not even seen Robert for many years. The North is huge, remote and insular; far from the center of power and privilege. Not many southern lords have much of an incentive to go there and involve themselves in the family dynamics of the Starks.

I'm also not convinced that Robert B. knows or suspects Jon's parentage, unless you can show evidence from the text. I don't recall any intimation or hint from him that he does.

And, even if you don't like it, a huge reason to think that hardly anybody connects Jon Snow to Lyanna and Rhaegar is that hardly anybody does. That doesn't automatically make them stupid (and it doesn't make GRRM a bad writer either); it mainly means that any Westerosi who might be interested are working with the information that they have - and not working with information that they (most likely) have no reason or cause to know.

 

I am sure rhaegar and lyanna drama is well known since rhaegar is crown prince and this ignited a national war. They made songs later, remember? 

And I agree it is impossible that nobody even think about lyanna may leave a child after being kidnapped by a man who publicly named her queen of love and beauty plus she missed for more than one year and died. 

 

[sciteacher]

On 2/2/2016 at 0:09 AM, purple-eyes said:

IAnd even stannis claimed that it is hard to believe ned has bastard. Not to mention people in winterfell. Especially cat his wife. 

 

I don't think that comes from the books. The only mention I can find has Stannis talking about Ned fathering Jon:

Stannis rubbed the back of his neck. "You haggle like a crone with a codfish, Lord Snow. Did Ned Stark father you on some fishwife? How many men?" A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

What would be the point of speculating beyond Ned's claim anyway? Nobody thought Ned would want to restore the Targs.

And Ned didn't really avoid Robert's questions completely! Remember? Bob thinks it's Wylla! Ned just "didn't want  to talk about it" (paraphrasing). What's so strange about that?

[XSarellaX]

On 02/02/2016 at 3:17 PM, house of dayne said:

while the common person of westeros might not have cause to question jons parentage, other characters most certainly do..if ned had a credible story or even a name for jons mother, the people close to him  would accept his version of events...instead, he returns with a mystery wrapped in riddle...when asked who his mother is, he deepens the enigma..to compound the mystery, all witnesses to events surrounding jons birth are all conveniently dead, save howland hiding in the swamp...how does the thought not cross catelyn's mind? ned never explicitly tells her or anyone else and because that creates an irresistible mystery that must fascinate the people who know him and his character...

furthermore, it seems clear that, at least in the official baratheon history of the rebellion, lyanna was abducted and raped by rhaegar...they were gone and unseen for long enough that the prospect of a pregnancy and or bastards would have been a real and vital concern to robert's court...it seems impossible that no one sworn to protect robert or the lannisters connected jon to lyanna in any way...while i understand that officially neds word would have been sufficient for his fiends and allies, he was not without enemies who surely would have been more suspicious..lady dustin for instance..

and yet no rumour, no innuendo, no idle gossip...little strange to me...

Some people wonder about Jon's mother, for sure, but Ned is under no obligation to provide a credible story, or justify Jon's presence in Winterfell. Jon is not mystery wrapped in riddle, he's just a bastard, and it's rude to ask questions about people's bastards.

His refusal to name the mother isn't suspicious... Well, people get curious, but they won't automatically think there's a major conspiration going on.

And R&L didn't even get to spend a year together. Not every couple concives a child after a few months.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

1 hour ago, Winds of Winter blow cold said:

What would be the point of speculating beyond Ned's claim anyway? Nobody thought Ned would want to restore the Targs.

 

There doesn't have to be a point to people speculating about something, it just has to be interesting.  The idea that the child of the king's greatest enemy and his greatest love may be living under the care of the king's best friend is intriguing, even if it has no bearing on anything of importance.  I'm not suggesting that the idea that Jon might be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna is a great controversy in the Seven Kingdoms, that people in darkened rooms discuss whether it's true or not because of it's great political implications.  It might be if Jon was being cared for by a Targaryan loyalist who was unfriendly towards the king, but he's not.  It's a rumor that, if it's true, says something interesting about the character of some very important people but it's also a rumor that everybody has to know is unlikely to ever be proven true or false.  That is why the rumor is not a plot point so far and why it's not an omission that it's not been discussed by any characters in the book.  It's an interesting piece of trivia about the current Lord Commander of the Wall, but because of his vow to the Watch, it has no political relevance whatsoever.  Until relatively recent events in the story, that is.

Now that the Lord Commander has broken his vows to the Watch, has amassed an army of people loyal to him and not to the organization that made his heritage completely irrelevant, it is more than just an interesting rumor.  I can see how it would play when word gets out - "The Nights Watch has revolted against their Lord Commander Jon Snow after he attempted to march on Winterfell with an army of wildlings" - "Did he announce that he was the son of Rhaegar?  Is he going to try and press a claim for the Iron Throne?  Was he in league with Targaryan loyalists?  We knew that he was probably the child of Rhaegar, but we thought that Robert and Ned had effectively neutralized that threat by sending him to the Wall - this is bad news."  "Oh, don't worry, they killed him."  "Oh, what a relief - oh wait, does he have any sons of his own?."

[Valyrian Blade]

I'm pretty sure Ned must have told Robert that there was no child when he found Lyanna.

 

Nobody ever suspects Jon's heritage because the war was never about Lyanna, at least for the other lords that weren't close to Ned like Jon Arryn and Robert. They knew Lyanna was kidnapped, but the actual thing that ignited the war was Aerys calling for Ned and Robert's heads.

Jon Arryn raised his banners because Aerys called for the heads of Ned and Robert his wards, and Ned and Robert aided him by calling their own banners. That's how it looks from the outsider perspective, they might have heard about Lyanna but their attention is on the young lord Stark fighting to avenge his family and Robert Baratheon claiming the right to sit on the Iron Throne.

Then when Ned goes to save Lyanna after breaking the Tyrell's siege, he kills the remaining kingsguard and found the body of his dead sister. Goes to Starfall and delivers Dawn (I suppose only him and Howland went, with no army) then goes back to WF.

My point is, nobody in Westeros cares enough to follow step by step Stark's movement in the war, for everyone the war ended at the trident, after that nobody was keeping tabs on what Lord Eddard was doing, except up to maybe breaking the Tyrell siege, nobody has proof of when he picked up the child, and on top of that the boy looks just like him, there's nothing to question.

 

Also even Robert seems to think Ned fathered him on a whore, when they talk about Wylla, Robert implies he saw Ned with whores (Robert was probably drunk at the camp and saw some whores approach Ned so that's from where he draws his conclusion)

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

I am sure Tyrion has heard the rumors as well, which makes his voyage to meet Daenerys even more interesting.  Maybe he's got more to his plans than just trying to talk Daenerys into killing all the people he hates.  He's met Jon, they made a good impression on each other.  What if he plans to tell Daenerys about this bastard who he thinks is probably her nephew?  "Khaleesi, you may not have heard this rumor since you have been away from Westeros for so long, but it is widely thought that your brother fathered a child on the sister of Ned Stark, who raised the child as his own.  He is a remarkable young man, I've met him, and is now the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  If we can confirm that he does have Targaryan blood, he might be a very valuable ally in your conquest of the Seven Kingdoms."

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

It seems pretty likely that Mance knows too.  That would explain a LOT.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

14 minutes ago, Valyrian Blade said:

I'm pretty sure Ned must have told Robert that there was no child when he found Lyanna.

 

Nobody ever suspects Jon's heritage because the war was never about Lyanna, at least for the other lords that weren't close to Ned like Jon Arryn and Robert. They knew Lyanna was kidnapped, but the actual thing that ignited the war was Aerys calling for Ned and Robert's heads.

Jon Arryn raised his banners because Aerys called for the heads of Ned and Robert his wards, and Ned and Robert aided him by calling their own banners. That's how it looks from the outsider perspective, they might have heard about Lyanna but their attention is on the young lord Stark fighting to avenge his family and Robert Baratheon claiming the right to sit on the Iron Throne.

Then when Ned goes to save Lyanna after breaking the Tyrell's siege, he kills the remaining kingsguard and found the body of his dead sister. Goes to Starfall and delivers Dawn (I suppose only him and Howland went, with no army) then goes back to WF.

My point is, nobody in Westeros cares enough to follow step by step Stark's movement in the war, for everyone the war ended at the trident, after that nobody was keeping tabs on what Lord Eddard was doing, except up to maybe breaking the Tyrell siege, nobody has proof of when he picked up the child, and on top of that the boy looks just like him, there's nothing to question.

 

Also even Robert seems to think Ned fathered him on a whore, when they talk about Wylla, Robert implies he saw Ned with whores (Robert was probably drunk at the camp and saw some whores approach Ned so that's from where he draws his conclusion)

That requires too many people to be trusting and with a total lack of curiosity over what Rhaegar was doing with the girl he crowned Queen of Love and Beauty after he left.  I'm sure it's not something that EVERYBODY knows, but smart people who are insightful in human nature and aware of the details of the Rebellion, including the various actors and their characters, would have a chance to consider it.  They would probably then dismiss the speculation as "Well, even if it's true, we'll never know for sure, even if Jon knows, he couldn't use it to press a claim."  People like Varys, Lewin, Tyrion, Mance, Qyburn, and possibly even Robert have probably considered the rumor and have varying degrees of belief in whether or not it's true.  Lewin almost certainly knows, as did Benjen.  Catelyn appears to be in denial - maybe part of her suspects it and that's why she's so hostile towards him, but her conscious mind has clearly accepted the explanation that the child is Ned's, possibly as a defense mechanism.  Robert has got to have at least considered it since he "knows" that Rhaegar raped Lyanna repeatedly, and also knows Ned's character very well - he's just playing along with Ned's cover story so Ned won't have to either lie more or admit that he lied before - like I did when my gay friend told me about his (hetero)sexual conquests. Some people may have heard the rumor but discounted it as a crazy rumor.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

8 hours ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

I am sure Tyrion has heard the rumors as well, which makes his voyage to meet Daenerys even more interesting.  Maybe he's got more to his plans than just trying to talk Daenerys into killing all the people he hates.  He's met Jon, they made a good impression on each other.  What if he plans to tell Daenerys about this bastard who he thinks is probably her nephew?  "Khaleesi, you may not have heard this rumor since you have been away from Westeros for so long, but it is widely thought that your brother fathered a child on the sister of Ned Stark, who raised the child as his own.  He is a remarkable young man, I've met him, and is now the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  If we can confirm that he does have Targaryan blood, he might be a very valuable ally in your conquest of the Seven Kingdoms."

Are there quotes from the books that would support this "widely thought"? 

 

[RobOsevens]

10 hours ago, XSarellaX said:

Some people wonder about Jon's mother, for sure, but Ned is under no obligation to provide a credible story, or justify Jon's presence in Winterfell. Jon is not mystery wrapped in riddle, he's just a bastard, and it's rude to ask questions about people's bastards.

His refusal to name the mother isn't suspicious... Well, people get curious, but they won't automatically think there's a major conspiration going on.

And R&L didn't even get to spend a year together. Not every couple concives a child after a few months.

Especially since there is the Ashara connection people believe Ned is protecting her honour

[Red Man Racey]

Most people who read the books and have access to a much more comprehensive set of information didn't even come up with R+L=J on their own. I do not think it at all likely that the in-story population, operating with a much narrower data set, would ever suspect that Jon is anything other than Ned's bastard ... if they even gave a second thought to the fact that Ned had a bastard in the first place. We, the readers, see the clues and analyze it to death only because we see multiple POVs, literary devices, etc that all point to it; characters in the story do not have any of that. For the people of Westeros, Ned says that Jon is his bastard and that's the end of the story, there's no reason to question it.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

5 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Are there quotes from the books that would support this "widely thought"? 

 

Are there any quotes that indicate that ANYONE thinks this, including people who definitely would know like Ned and Benjen?  Obviously GRRM is deliberately omitting character's thoughts to keep the twist under wraps, but if you think about it logically, this is an idea that would occur to SOMEONE.  If one of the most famous people in the world was known to have kidnapped an important politician's daughter after proclaiming her attractive, disappeared for a year, and then a child just the right age showed up in the family of that politician after the daughter was presumed dead and their origins were kept murky, of course people would speculate that the child was actually the child of the kidnapped daughter.  Perhaps only a few people would consider it, but they would tell their friends, and once the idea got out, it would spread like wildfire.  It went over the heads of the people reading the book because GRRM deliberately obfuscates that theory, but many people figured it out without any more evidence than what we get in the text - in-universe, people speculating about why Rhaegar did what he did would not have the character of Jon Snow repeatedly described to them as the bastard of Ned Stark, they would just know that Ned showed up with a bastard just the right age to be the hypothetical child of Lyanna.

Maybe in the year or two after Robert's Rebellion, there were a LOT more rumors about this supposed bastard, but people stopped caring, or decided that maybe it was wrong since nothing ever came of it.  But some people would remember it.  Do people opposed to this theory REALLY believe that NOBODY would think "Hey, maybe Rhaegar got Lyanna pregnant while he had her hidden away down south, I wonder what would have happened to the baby?" and then start thinking about who might have said baby?

[The Ned's Little Girl]

46 minutes ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

Are there any quotes that indicate that ANYONE thinks this, including people who definitely would know like Ned and Benjen?  Obviously GRRM is deliberately omitting character's thoughts to keep the twist under wraps, but if you think about it logically, this is an idea that would occur to SOMEONE.

Yes, are there any quotes from the books (not necessarily quotes from characters thinking, "Gee I wonder if Rhaegar got that northern girl preggers?"), but any hints or intimations that someone has thought it?

I mean, we all understand the clues that led us to R+L=J even though nobody in the books thought it. There are hints and insinuations and intimations and thematic reasons and all kinds of things that guided readers to that conclusion. In other words, there are reasons to think that R+L=J is true and those reasons were written into the books by GRRM. 

Your contention is that it was "widely known" that Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna. I'm asking what are the reasons to come to that conclusion, from the books? Just saying "this is an idea that would occur to SOMEONE" is not good enough. Show me the text where that idea HAS occurred to someone. Otherwise your contention has no foundation and there is no reason to believe it.

Especially when anybody does bother to speculate about Jon's parentage, they always get it completely wrong. Every single time. Cersei thinks it's Ned and some whore, Catelyn wonders about Ned and Ashara Dayne, Davos gets an earful about Ned and the fisherman's daughter, Arya hears about Ned and Wylla. Even Tyrion gets it rather spectacularly wrong when he speculates that whoever Jon's mother was, she left little of herself in him. He's way off base there, isn't he?

So, you're making the argument that somebody must have figured it out, when all the evidence from the books goes to show that nobody figured it out.

 

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

THere is no evidence in the book that nobody has figured it out. An absence of evidence that people figured it out does not mean that nobody has figured it out.  There's no evidence in the text that anybody has figured out that anal sex does not result in pregnancy, but we can assume that, since these people are aware that semen in a vagina causes pregnancy and that coitus interruptus can be used to prevent pregnancy, that this is known even if people aren't thinking about it all the time.  It doesn't mean that everybody in Westeros thinks that butt sex can cause babies.

I just cannot imagine that the entire population of Westeros is so stupid and trusting and uncurious that nobody has ever speculated that Lyanna might have had a baby by Rhaegar…that is utterly ridiculous.  Once you make the assumption that people have wondered if Rhaegar did get Lyanna pregnant, that means that they would wonder if the baby was born before she died…and once some people are thinking about that, they are going to wonder if that baby is still alive, and who might have the baby.  The best assumption is that the family of the mother would adopt the baby, and who showed up with a baby at just the right time?

[RoamingRonin]

It is weird because people consider Wylla, Ashara Dayne and Random Fishwife #1 instead of "Hm, maybe Lyanna and Rhaegar". People speculate the weirdest things in this series - for example: Robb is a warg! His northmen turn into wolves! He took Casterly Rock! He burned Lannisport! Sansa turned into a winged wolf and fled the castle! - but no one even thinks Rhaegar and Lyanna? Ned, who reflects on Rhaegar, Lyanna and Jon often, doesn't even reflect that Jon is not his son? People even suspect Ashara when it's well-known she gave birth to a still-born daughter.

It doesn't break the theory, it's just a flaw.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

2 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

It is weird because people consider Wylla, Ashara Dayne and Random Fishwife #1 instead of "Hm, maybe Lyanna and Rhaegar". People speculate the weirdest things in this series - for example: Robb is a warg! His northmen turn into wolves! He took Casterly Rock! He burned Lannisport! Sansa turned into a winged wolf and fled the castle! - but no one even thinks Rhaegar and Lyanna? Ned, who reflects on Rhaegar, Lyanna and Jon often, doesn't even reflect that Jon is not his son? People even suspect Ashara when it's well-known she gave birth to a still-born daughter.

It doesn't break the theory, it's just a flaw.

I argue that it's not a flaw.  An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  Just because we haven't seen the thoughts of someone thinking "I wonder if Rhaegar got Lyanna pregnant" doesn't mean that nobody has ever thought that…especially since ( A ) the story takes place 15 years after that kidnapping happened so it's not on everybody's mind and ( B ) those who considered the possibility would also realize that it would almost certainly never be proven one way or the other, since there are no paternity tests and there's no reason for those who know to tell anyone.

If recent events result in people speculating that this rogue LC is a Targaryan bastard, it wouldn't be a flaw at all - it would be perfectly natural that people would have forgotten about that and stopped talking about it until that baby is grown up and in the news again.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

3 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

It is weird because people consider Wylla, Ashara Dayne and Random Fishwife #1 instead of "Hm, maybe Lyanna and Rhaegar". People speculate the weirdest things in this series - for example: Robb is a warg! His northmen turn to wolves! He took Casterly Rock! He burned Lannistport! Sansa turned into a winged wolf and fled the castle! - but no one even thinks Rhaegar and Lyanna?

Because Very Important People (like the Young Wolf and his sister) and Very Important Events (like Robb's campaign, the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding) are in the center of everyone's attention. Jon Snow barely registers. Lyanna Stark was mentioned, in non-Stark POVs, barely four times in the entire series (one of them only because Robert had named one of his warship after her).