if R+L=J is true...

[house of dayne]

if R+L=J, how come it never occurs as a possibility to any of the characters...i mean, Lyanna is very publicly abducted by Rhaegar...it sparks a civil war in the 7K.. when Ned goes to retrieve her, he returns instead with a mystery baby...the timeline for a Lyanna pregnancy is obviously well established and cements the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna could easily had time to bear a child...and yet no one seems to entertain the notion that Jon might be their child, no one does the math...not Cat in her bitterness, not Robert obsessed with the extinction of all Targaryen heirs, not Varys with all his little birds, not even Twywin who surely would have been concerned about the possibility of a surviving Targ to avenge his own murder of the Targ children...Tyrion, a veritable historian of the 7K, does not even have the idea cross his mind when he meets him...even the Stark children seem to have no rumours to Jons parentage and none consider that hes is the son of R+L...certainly it would seem that none of the Northern lords considers it a possibility, he is accepted as Neds son...though Ned is honourable man whose word counts for much, everyone really only has his word for it and there is no evidence that his underlings ever gossiped behind his back...

[Myself656]

I think a big part of it is simply that there was so much death and so many atrocities during the Rebellion that people were looking for stability and just overlooked things that might cause further chaos in favor of "easier" answers.

The idea that Ned Stark could be sheltering Rhaegar's trueborn son would have driven a wedge between Ned and Robert (who would certainly call for the death of Ned's nephew because he would be a constant reminder of Lyanna's "infidelity" to him) at precisely the point when the Kingdom was in desperate need of healing.

Similarly, after all the atrocities committed, less honorable men would actually find relief in the notion that even the honorable Ned Stark had failed in his vows by fathering a bastard. If even such a man as he could fail then their failures of honor weren't so bad really (to their minds). In Robert's case, his obsessive image of Lyanna as a virginal prize was so strong that even the thought that she could have had a child by another man would present so much cognitive dissonance that he'd accept ANY other explanation first and so he did.

That Jon bears NO traits typical of a Targaryan (indeed he looks more like a young Ned than ANY of Ned's actual sons) is further insulation. Why presume "secret Targ" when he has neither white hair nor purple eyes... but instead the dark hair and grey eyes of a trueborn Stark?

Basically, I think it was a perfect storm of events that made it easier for most people to accept the easy story that a man away at war for over a year was so worn down that in a moment of weakness he forgot his vows for a night and fathered a bastard like countless other men had done before... and of course once that moment had past, dour Ned's sense of honor would demand that he not bury his sin, but bring the child back to Winterfell to raise.

A big part of why Ned's account is never seriously questioned isn't just because he's honorable in and of itself... but because the idea that the honorable Ned would LIE about having done something dishonorable when he actually hadn't is just so alien to their understanding that it doesn't register. They would understand lying to preserve your honor or telling the truth about a dishonorable act so as not to dishonor yourself further... but to lie about being dishonorable is so alien a concept you might as well claim that Ned Stark had three heads, because that's about as believable.

[corbon]

13 hours ago, house of dayne said:

if R+L=J, how come it never occurs as a possibility to any of the characters...i mean, Lyanna is very publicly abducted by Rhaegar...it sparks a civil war in the 7K..

Well, more accurately, although you can argue it is the spark that ignites the war, it very quickly becomes an irrelevance to the actual war. Once Brandon commits treason in front of the Red Keep demanding that the crown prince "come out and die" Lyanna becomes pretty much a minor footnote. Noticeably no one even mentions her, or her kidnapping. For all Robert's grand words about going to war to get her back, Jon Arryn started the war, and he did it to keep Ned's and Robert's heads on their shoulders. Neither Ned nor Robert had any choice really.

13 hours ago, house of dayne said:

when Ned goes to retrieve her, he returns instead with a mystery baby...

What mystery? Its Ned's bastard. It even looks like him. Why would he claim a bastard that wasn't his, especially raising it in his own roof and causing disruptions in his house?

13 hours ago, house of dayne said:

the timeline for a Lyanna pregnancy is obviously well established and cements the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna could easily had time to bear a child...

Well, yes. But think on that from a slightly different angle. Lyanna and Rhaegar disappeared in the Riverlands. 6-10 months or so later Rhaegar reappears in the Crownlands. no sign of Lyanna. Another 5-9 months later (total 13-15 months or so) Ned comes back from Dorne with Lyanna's bones and his bastard - along with a mysterious supposed southern Lady suicide while he's visiting and a southern 'wetnurse'.
There's really no connection between Rhaegar+Lyanna and Ned's bastard. Rhaegar and Lyanna appears to have been 'done' long ago and Ned's bastard has two good story options that seem to fit (Ashara Dayne and the tragic romance or Wylla the common roll in the hay who is being well looked after as wet nurse).

Yes, R+L=J is technically possible within the timeline people have, but it doesn't actually fit with the facts most of them have, and there are better stories that do fit.
We however get a much greater collection of facts - ones that both rule out those other stories and also supply much greater connections that strongly indicate R+L=J.

13 hours ago, house of dayne said:

and yet no one seems to entertain the notion that Jon might be their child, no one does the math...not Cat in her bitterness, not Robert obsessed with the extinction of all Targaryen heirs, not Varys with all his little birds, not even Twywin who surely would have been concerned about the possibility of a surviving Targ to avenge his own murder of the Targ children...Tyrion, a veritable historian of the 7K, does not even have the idea cross his mind when he meets him...even the Stark children seem to have no rumours to Jons parentage and none consider that hes is the son of R+L...certainly it would seem that none of the Northern lords considers it a possibility, he is accepted as Neds son...though Ned is honourable man whose word counts for much, everyone really only has his word for it and there is no evidence that his underlings ever gossiped behind his back...

There's better math for all those people, based n what they know. And its not exactly important to them either, except perhaps Varys (who has enormous issues of his own at the time - he's re-establishing his own power base having been fortunate to transfer after being very much on the losing side, and KL and the Red Keep, his main base, has just been sacked).

Oh, and there is evidence Ned's underling's gossiped behind his back. Their gossip tends towards Ashara Dayne being the mother, and gets to Catelyn, who asks Ned. Ned goes all icy and puts the shits up her, telling her never to ask about Jon's mother and then getting where she heard the gossip from so he can track it down and end it. And end it he does.
OTOH, his soldiers still gossip about how Ned killed the great Arthur Dayne in single combat (which we know from Ned to be inaccurate), probably based on him returning Dawn to Starfall.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

I like the theory, if R+L=J is true, that it's an open secret.  All the well informed people and those interested in rumors about the nobles have heard the rumor that Ned's bastard is actually the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar.  What can you do with that information, though?  There's no way to prove it, and one of the most powerful men on the continent is obviously willing to lie to cover it up and was best friends to the king, so there was no way to use Jon against the Baratheons.  When he got sent to the Wall at 14 right after Robert visits Ned and gives him a powerful position, those suspicions would be solidified.

Everybody knows R+L=J, the twist would be if it turned out not to be true.

[purple-eyes]

33 minutes ago, corbon said:

Well, more accurately, although you can argue it is the spark that ignites the war, it very quickly becomes an irrelevance to the actual war. Once Brandon commits treason in front of the Red Keep demanding that the crown prince "come out and die" Lyanna becomes pretty much a minor footnote. Noticeably no one even mentions her, or her kidnapping. For all Robert's grand words about going to war to get her back, Jon Arryn started the war, and he did it to keep Ned's and Robert's heads on their shoulders. Neither Ned nor Robert had any choice really.

What mystery? Its Ned's bastard. It even looks like him. Why would he claim a bastard that wasn't his, especially raising it in his own roof and causing disruptions in his house?

Well, yes. But think on that from a slightly different angle. Lyanna and Rhaegar disappeared in the Riverlands. 6-10 months or so later Rhaegar reappears in the Crownlands. no sign of Lyanna. Another 5-9 months later (total 13-15 months or so) Ned comes back from Dorne with Lyanna's bones and his bastard - along with a mysterious supposed southern Lady suicide while he's visiting and a southern 'wetnurse'.
There's really no connection between Rhaegar+Lyanna and Ned's bastard. Rhaegar and Lyanna appears to have been 'done' long ago and Ned's bastard has two good story options that seem to fit (Ashara Dayne and the tragic romance or Wylla the common roll in the hay who is being well looked after as wet nurse).

Yes, R+L=J is technically possible within the timeline people have, but it doesn't actually fit with the facts most of them have, and there are better stories that do fit.
We however get a much greater collection of facts - ones that both rule out those other stories and also supply much greater connections that strongly indicate R+L=J.

There's better math for all those people, based n what they know. And its not exactly important to them either, except perhaps Varys (who has enormous issues of his own at the time - he's re-establishing his own power base having been fortunate to transfer after being very much on the losing side, and KL and the Red Keep, his main base, has just been sacked).

Oh, and there is evidence Ned's underling's gossiped behind his back. Their gossip tends towards Ashara Dayne being the mother, and gets to Catelyn, who asks Ned. Ned goes all icy and puts the shits up her, telling her never to ask about Jon's mother and then getting where she heard the gossip from so he can track it down and end it. And end it he does.
OTOH, his soldiers still gossip about how Ned killed the great Arthur Dayne in single combat (which we know from Ned to be inaccurate), probably based on him returning Dawn to Starfall.

Please, whole country knew lyanna was raped by rhaegar thousands of times and she was missing for over one year. What do you think this will likely generate? 

Of course a child. 

Jon looks like ned, but lyanna had a stark face too and people knew how lyanna look like. 

And people knew ned is a honorable man too. So he is less likely to make a bastard right after marriage with catelyn. 

It will not take a rocket scientist to figure out this child maybe from lyanna's belly. 

GRRM wanted to protect his mystery so he made people stupid on this issue. 

In reality, many people would feel suspicious. People like varys or LF would not miss this. 

Even catelyn would feel suspicious too once she knew what type of man ned is. 

 

 

[RoamingRonin]

I've been saying this for years.

I don't think this is an argument against R+L=J. I think it's just a flaw of the whole thing.

[corbon]

15 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Please, whole country knew lyanna was raped by rhaegar thousands of times and she was missing for over one year.

Please, yourself. Its only your assertion that the whole country knows she was raped. Robert is the only one who claims she was raped 1000x, Bran the only other person who says she was raped at all. And Rhaegar was popular, well liked, and by all accounts honourable and anti-rape (Jorah tells Dany she is her brother's sister when she prevents rapes). Your assertion runs contrary to most of the evidence.
The rape story might be 'official' because Robert is the king, but I don't think its widely believed, at least not by those who are high up enough to care. I wouldn't be surprised if its not even widely spread, let alone believed.

15 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

What do you think this will likely generate? 

Of course a child. 

Of course, I forgot, rape always generates children. How silly of me!

15 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Jon looks like ned, but lyanna had a stark face too and people knew how lyanna look like. 

Did they? She had a moment of fame at Harrenhal, but only those present would have seen her there. Consider for example Ashara Dayne, handmaid to the crown princess, sister to the legendary Sword of the Morning the great KG Arthur Dayne, present at court, and such a notable as Catelyn Tully doesn't know what she looks like but has 'heard' she is 'tall and fair' (actually she was dark haired).
Some people will know what Lyanna looked like. But far more people know what Ned looks like.

15 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

And people knew ned is a honorable man too. So he is less likely to make a bastard right after marriage with catelyn. 

Did they? He's an almost unknown nobody before the rebellion, known mostly to those at Jon Arryn's court and not very much like his elder brother.
And even if they did, its a stupid argument to try and make - you can't question his word on the grounds that he's to honourable to be telling the truth.

15 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

It will not take a rocket scientist to figure out this child maybe from lyanna's belly. 

It will take a seer though, unless they have access to a lot more data.

15 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

GRRM wanted to protect his mystery so he made people stupid on this issue. 

 No argument there. I just think that most of them are readers, and most of those are not so much stupid as haven't really thought about it and analysed who knows what and what they can put together from it.

 

 

[purple-eyes]

6 minutes ago, corbon said:

Please, yourself. Its only your assertion that the whole country knows she was raped. Robert is the only one who claims she was raped 1000x, Bran the only other person who says she was raped at all. And Rhaegar was popular, well liked, and by all accounts honourable and anti-rape (Jorah tells Dany she is her brother's sister when she prevents rapes). Your assertion runs contrary to most of the evidence.
The rape story might be 'official' because Robert is the king, but I don't think its widely believed, at least not by those who are high up enough to care. I wouldn't be surprised if its not even widely spread, let alone believed.

Of course, I forgot, rape always generates children. How silly of me!

Did they? She had a moment of fame at Harrenhal, but only those present would have seen her there. Consider for example Ashara Dayne, handmaid to the crown princess, sister to the legendary Sword of the Morning the great KG Arthur Dayne, present at court, and such a notable as Catelyn Tully doesn't know what she looks like but has 'heard' she is 'tall and fair' (actually she was dark haired).
Some people will know what Lyanna looked like. But far more people know what Ned looks like.

Did they? He's an almost unknown nobody before the rebellion, known mostly to those at Jon Arryn's court and not very much like his elder brother.
And even if they did, its a stupid argument to try and make - you can't question his word on the grounds that he's to honourable to be telling the truth.

It will take a seer though, unless they have access to a lot more data.

 No argument there. I just think that most of them are readers, and most of those are not so much stupid as haven't really thought about it and analysed who knows what and what they can put together from it.

 

 

I did not get you. Even like you said, majority people think it is not raping, it is love. So what? 

Then a young man and a young woman who are in love and hide for over one year, what do you think they will create? 

Still a child. 

It is not one day or one week thing, they stayed isolated for one year and the woman stayed missing for even longer. why is it so strange that they would make a child? 

You do know when a famous actress missed for like one year or even half year,  people would always gossip she went to have a baby, right?

" fair" can mean skin color or beauty. Here it is more likely this means beauty. Even barristan called ashara his fair lady. Ashara is famous for beauty. Why do you have to put it as dark hair? Just to prove your point? And you think a jealousy cat will care about her hair color? Of course she would mention her beauty. LF also said sansa is tall and fair. In fact, most of time, fair maid means pretty maid, not fair haired maid. 

That crowning attracted a lot of attention to lyanna and her look was discussed in king's council. And at least many people in north knew her. This child looks like a stark and lyanna is also a stark and Ned's sister. Why is it so hard to feel suspicious this boy may be her son? And a nephew can take uncle's look too. 

And even stannis claimed that it is hard to believe ned has bastard. Not to mention people in winterfell. Especially cat his wife. 

This has been discussed before many times. Many people agree that it is strange that nobody feel suspicious. Tyrion can figure out JonCon and aegon in such a short time, but he had no doubt in jon at all. 

This is more likely for the plot demand. You simply ignore these and claim other people are wrong. 

 

 

[Pancakes1800]

As the reader, we have access to more information than the people of Westeros.  If we never had a Ned POV, not many people would believe R+L=J and the theory might not exist in the first place.  We know that Lyanna died in a bed of blood and Ned had to make a promise and we get a lot of Blue Roses connection with Lyanna.  As an average person in Westeros, there is absolutely no reason to doubt Jon's parentage.  

[OwloftheRainwood]

 

 

26 minutes ago, Pancakes1800 said:

As the reader, we have access to more information than the people of Westeros.  If we never had a Ned POV, not many people would believe R+L=J and the theory might not exist in the first place.  We know that Lyanna died in a bed of blood and Ned had to make a promise and we get a lot of Blue Roses connection with Lyanna.  As an average person in Westeros, there is absolutely no reason to doubt Jon's parentage

Great point, Pancakes. I think we tend to get caught up in theories/counter theories and tend to make things more complicated than they are based on knowledge as a reader that even the most informed lords do not have. Ned Stark was known for his honor, when he claimed Jon as his bastard, uncomfortable questions were tossed aside for the sake of stability. It's not as difficult to believe as purple-eyes suggests.

[Nozlym]

just in general as a passerby, if ned told me that jon was his son i would believe him lol. y would i think that hes lying. theres no second thought going through my mind.

[house of dayne]

while the common person of westeros might not have cause to question jons parentage, other characters most certainly do..if ned had a credible story or even a name for jons mother, the people close to him  would accept his version of events...instead, he returns with a mystery wrapped in riddle...when asked who his mother is, he deepens the enigma..to compound the mystery, all witnesses to events surrounding jons birth are all conveniently dead, save howland hiding in the swamp...how does the thought not cross catelyn's mind? ned never explicitly tells her or anyone else and because that creates an irresistible mystery that must fascinate the people who know him and his character...

furthermore, it seems clear that, at least in the official baratheon history of the rebellion, lyanna was abducted and raped by rhaegar...they were gone and unseen for long enough that the prospect of a pregnancy and or bastards would have been a real and vital concern to robert's court...it seems impossible that no one sworn to protect robert or the lannisters connected jon to lyanna in any way...while i understand that officially neds word would have been sufficient for his fiends and allies, he was not without enemies who surely would have been more suspicious..lady dustin for instance..

and yet no rumour, no innuendo, no idle gossip...little strange to me...

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Long story short: the man says the bastard is his, it must be true. The man happens to be Ned Stark, then it really must be true. For some weird reason, people in Westeros simply aren't as obsessed as we are about secret identities, secret parentages or compatible.

[OwloftheRainwood]

5 hours ago, house of dayne said:

while the common person of westeros might not have cause to question jons parentage, other characters most certainly do..if ned had a credible story or even a name for jons mother, the people close to him  would accept his version of events...instead, he returns with a mystery wrapped in riddle...when asked who his mother is, he deepens the enigma..to compound the mystery, all witnesses to events surrounding jons birth are all conveniently dead, save howland hiding in the swamp...how does the thought not cross catelyn's mind? ned never explicitly tells her or anyone else and because that creates an irresistible mystery that must fascinate the people who know him and his character...

furthermore, it seems clear that, at least in the official baratheon history of the rebellion, lyanna was abducted and raped by rhaegar...they were gone and unseen for long enough that the prospect of a pregnancy and or bastards would have been a real and vital concern to robert's court...it seems impossible that no one sworn to protect robert or the lannisters connected jon to lyanna in any way...while i understand that officially neds word would have been sufficient for his fiends and allies, he was not without enemies who surely would have been more suspicious..lady dustin for instance..

and yet no rumour, no innuendo, no idle gossip...little strange to me...

Pancakes, Ferocious, Nozlym and myself have this point over and over...the most educated and informed lords, let alone the common folk have much less information than we do as readers. Judging fictional characters' knowledge based on knowledge we have as readers, which is far superior, makes no sense. Due to Ned's reputation and for the sake of stability, uncomfortable questions were put aside - there are myriad historical examples of this happening so I'm not sure why this is so difficult for certain posters.

[corbon]

7 hours ago, house of dayne said:

and yet no rumour, no innuendo, no idle gossip...little strange to me...

But there is rumour and innuendo and idle gossip. Thats one half the point (the other half being that people don't have all the data we do, they base their rumour, innuendo and idle gossip on the limited information they have).

In Winterfell there was gossip about Ashara being the mother - Ned found out from Catelyn and shut down all gossip about Jon's mother.
In Starfall there is gossip that Wylla is the mother, but Ashara and Ned were in love.
In the Stepstones there is gossip about the Fisherman's daughter being the mother.
Cersei references several options - a dornish peasant raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? The Lady Ashara Dayne?

[purple-eyes]

6 minutes ago, corbon said:

But there is rumour and innuendo and idle gossip. Thats one half the point (the other half being that people don't have all the data we do, they base their rumour, innuendo and idle gossip on the limited information they have).

In Winterfell there was gossip about Ashara being the mother - Ned found out from Catelyn and shut down all gossip about Jon's mother.
In Starfall there is gossip that Wylla is the mother, but Ashara and Ned were in love.
In the Stepstones there is gossip about the Fisherman's daughter being the mother.
Cersei references several options - a dornish peasant raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? The Lady Ashara Dayne?

Correct. People are interested in this and they indeed felt strange.

I just feel awkward that why nobody thought about Lyanna and Rhaegar as one option.

If Cersei knew these information, I guess Varys, LF, Tyrion, jaime, Barristan and Pycelle all knew about it.

Especially Varys, he was there all the time during all these R and L drama and he seems to watch Rhaegar a lot too (HH tourney).

Oh, and also Barristan. He thought rhaegar loved Lyanna and thousands of people died for it.

So he never thought about that a child may be born over this whole year? he knew Ashara got pregnant from some guy over the tourney on some secret affair and then died due to grief. Why can not he think about Lyanna may do something similar with Rhaegar?

 

 

[The Wolves]

People are stupid in Westeros so I'm not suprised that no one thought that Lyanna and Rhaegar had a kid let alone that kid being Jon Snow. 

[corbon]

19 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

I did not get you. Even like you said, majority people think it is not raping, it is love. So what? 

Then a young man and a young woman who are in love and hide for over one year,

Who says they hid together for over a year? Who even thinks that? They disappeared together in one place, supposedly an abduction or something.
Rhaegar reappeared in a completely different place, without Lyanna, 6-11 months or so later.
Lyanna never reappeared, but her bones were brought back from a third completely different place well over a year after she disappeared.

19 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

" fair" can mean skin color or beauty. Here it is more likely this means beauty. Even barristan called ashara his fair lady. Ashara is famous for beauty. Why do you have to put it as dark hair? Just to prove your point? And you think a jealousy cat will care about her hair color? Of course she would mention her beauty. LF also said sansa is tall and fair. In fact, most of time, fair maid means pretty maid, not fair haired maid. 

Way to miss the point completely...
The point is that Ashara Dayne was far more public and well known than a young girl from the far north, yet Catelyn Tully still didn't know what she looked like, just had a general description. So your assertion that 'people knew what Lyanna looked like' and the implication that therefore they would attach Jon's looks to her as much as Ned is just your usual invention.

19 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

That crowning attracted a lot of attention to lyanna and her look was discussed in king's council. And at least many people in north knew her. This child looks like a stark and lyanna is also a stark and Ned's sister. Why is it so hard to feel suspicious this boy may be her son? And a nephew can take uncle's look too. 

Why is it even necessary? Ned says its his, the boy looks like him, why should there be any suspicion its not his? This is utterly nonsensical.

19 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

And even stannis claimed that it is hard to believe ned has bastard. Not to mention people in winterfell. Especially cat his wife. 

Quotes please.
Cat says it was no surprise to her.
Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

19 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

This has been discussed before many times. Many people agree that it is strange that nobody feel suspicious. Tyrion can figure out JonCon and aegon in such a short time, but he had no doubt in jon at all. 

This is more likely for the plot demand. You simply ignore these and claim other people are wrong.

I don't ignore them (it?). I don't need to. Tyrion is operating sensibly on the data he has, in having no suspicion on Jon 's parentage and plenty over Griff and YG.

The people I claim are wrong are the people who make poor observations and back them up with blatantly wrong statements like 'there's no gossip', 'everybody is stupid', 'Cat couldn't believe Ned had a bastard', 'whole country knew she was raped 1000s of times', 'you can't trust an honourable man's word that he did a dishonourable thing, you have to assume he's lying' and 'rape always makes babies'.

13 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Correct. People are interested in this and they indeed felt strange.

Yes they are interested, no they don't think it strange that a nobleman has a bastard. As Catelyn says, it was no surprise to her. And she expected he'd look after any byblow (she just didn't expect it to be in her household - that part was strange).

13 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

I just feel awkward that why nobody thought about Lyanna and Rhaegar as one option.

If Cersei knew these information, I guess Varys, LF, Tyrion, jaime, Barristan and Pycelle all knew about it.

Especially Varys, he was there all the time during all these R and L drama and he seems to watch Rhaegar a lot too (HH tourney).

Oh, and also Barristan. He thought rhaegar loved Lyanna and thousands of people died for it.

And like Cersei, they came up with better math, based on what they knew.

This is a really simple point, its not that hard to understand unless you have a totally closed mind.

13 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

So he never thought about that a child may be born over this whole year? he knew Ashara got pregnant from some guy over the tourney on some secret affair and then died due to grief. Why can not he think about Lyanna may do something similar with Rhaegar?

So what if she did? They both died, presumably any child (if there was one, its only a chance, and not a great one at that given all the uncertainty about their relationship, the time they spent together etc etc) also died, or can't be found. What that has to do with Ned's bastard, who turns up after they are both dead, in a completely different area, with much better origin stories and even looks like Ned, is an idiot's guess.
I guess there are fewer idiots in westeros than around here...

[purple-eyes]

11 minutes ago, corbon said:

Who says they hid together for over a year? Who even thinks that? They disappeared together in one place, supposedly an abduction or something.
Rhaegar reappeared in a completely different place, without Lyanna, 6-11 months or so later.
Lyanna never reappeared, but her bones were brought back from a third completely different place well over a year after she disappeared.

Way to miss the point completely...
The point is that Ashara Dayne was far more public and well known than a young girl from the far north, yet Catelyn Tully still didn't know what she looked like, just had a general description. So your assertion that 'people knew what Lyanna looked like' and the implication that therefore they would attach Jon's looks to her as much as Ned is just your usual invention.

Why is it even necessary? Ned says its his, the boy looks like him, why should there be any suspicion its not his? This is utterly nonsensical.

Quotes please.
Cat says it was no surprise to her.
Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

I don't ignore them (it?). I don't need to. Tyrion is operating sensibly on the data he has, in having no suspicion on Jon 's parentage and plenty over Griff and YG.

The people I claim are wrong are the people who make poor observations and back them up with blatantly wrong statements like 'there's no gossip', 'everybody is stupid', 'Cat couldn't believe Ned had a bastard', 'whole country knew she was raped 1000s of times', 'you can't trust an honourable man's word that he did a dishonourable thing, you have to assume he's lying' and 'rape always makes babies'.

Yes they are interested, no they don't think it strange that a nobleman has a bastard. As Catelyn says, it was no surprise to her. And she expected he'd look after any byblow (she just didn't expect it to be in her household - that part was strange).

And like Cersei, they came up with better math, based on what they knew.

This is a really simple point, its not that hard to understand unless you have a totally closed mind.

So what if she did? They both died, presumably any child (if there was one, its only a chance, and not a great one at that given all the uncertainty about their relationship, the time they spent together etc etc) also died, or can't be found. What that has to do with Ned's bastard, who turns up after they are both dead, in a completely different area, with much better origin stories and even looks like Ned, is an idiot's guess.
I guess there are fewer idiots in westeros than around here...

Believe or not, if you watch those gossips about female celebrities, if one goes missing for half year or longer, no matter if there is a man involved in the news or not, people will gossip that she possibly goes to deliver a baby. Or in a simpler case, in college, if a girl decides to quit for one year, many people will guess she goes home to have a child. 

Not to mention in rhaegar's case, no matter it is a love story, or a raping story, there is sex life involved. Nobody will think they went missing for one year or half a year just to sit down together and sing songs. And nobody argue with you that raping must make a baby. But several months of either raping, or sweet love making, has a high chance to create a child for rhaegar and lyanna's case. 

You can insist nobody would feel suspicious about RLJ or put the puzzle together, this is your opinion. Many previous threads would not agree with you. Including the one you are answering. 

 

 

 

[Damsel in Distress]

On 2/1/2016 at 9:06 AM, house of dayne said:

if R+L=J, how come it never occurs as a possibility to any of the characters...i mean, Lyanna is very publicly abducted by Rhaegar...it sparks a civil war in the 7K.. when Ned goes to retrieve her, he returns instead with a mystery baby...the timeline for a Lyanna pregnancy is obviously well established and cements the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna could easily had time to bear a child...and yet no one seems to entertain the notion that Jon might be their child, no one does the math...not Cat in her bitterness, not Robert obsessed with the extinction of all Targaryen heirs, not Varys with all his little birds, not even Twywin who surely would have been concerned about the possibility of a surviving Targ to avenge his own murder of the Targ children...Tyrion, a veritable historian of the 7K, does not even have the idea cross his mind when he meets him...even the Stark children seem to have no rumours to Jons parentage and none consider that hes is the son of R+L...certainly it would seem that none of the Northern lords considers it a possibility, he is accepted as Neds son...though Ned is honourable man whose word counts for much, everyone really only has his word for it and there is no evidence that his underlings ever gossiped behind his back...

It is not a proven theory.  Very far from it.