if R+L=J is true...

[house of dayne]

ned went from the tower of joy to starfall, supposedly with howland reed and baby jon...he would need a wet nurse as soon as possible...presumably wylla as edric dayne suggested...there must be people in starfall who know enough of the events to know who jon must be..servants who witnessed ned returning dawn with a new born baby desperate for mik..some might even have known what arthur was doing, whom he was serving and why he died at the hands of ned stark....how this secret remained in starfall is beyond me...good and loyal servants to keep the secret of the man who killed arthur dayne and drove ashara to her death, if the stories are true...

[Valyrian Blade]

6 hours ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

One chain of thought that could lead to it is "It seems unlikely that Ned Stark would father a bastard.  Is there any reason why he might claim a child is his bastard that he did not father?" and BAM, there ya go.

Because it's not unlikely. He is man, yes he values honor above almost everything but he is still a man(Which is why at first i was hoping Jon was Ned's because even the most honorable men can have a moment of weakness, but that was before all the evidence) , we know he wouldn't father a bastard because we read his POV as outsiders. But to everybody else what they think to when they hear about Ned's bastard is "Oh look like Lord Eddard wasn't as honorable as they all say" or "He has a man's needs after all"

Even Cait wasn't surprised he fathered one.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

10 hours ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

One chain of thought that could lead to it is "It seems unlikely that Ned Stark would father a bastard.  Is there any reason why he might claim a child is his bastard that he did not father?" and BAM, there ya go.

The trouble with that is, it would be way less out of character for Ned to deliberately maintain one lie for his entire life. So what you propose is "Let's look for some way more convoluted and improbable answer".

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

10 hours ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

One chain of thought that could lead to it is "It seems unlikely that Ned Stark would father a bastard.  Is there any reason why he might claim a child is his bastard that he did not father?" and BAM, there ya go.

The trouble with that is, it would be way less out of character for Ned to deliberately maintain one lie for his entire life. So what you propose is "Let's look for some way more convoluted and improbable answer".

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

6 hours ago, Valyrian Blade said:

Because it's not unlikely. He is man, yes he values honor above almost everything but he is still a man(Which is why at first i was hoping Jon was Ned's because even the most honorable men can have a moment of weakness, but that was before all the evidence) , we know he wouldn't father a bastard because we read his POV as outsiders. But to everybody else what they think to when they hear about Ned's bastard is "Oh look like Lord Eddard wasn't as honorable as they all say" or "He has a man's needs after all"

Even Cait wasn't surprised he fathered one.

Part of the strangeness of Ned's bastard, though, is that he brought the bastard into his home and raised the child alongside his firstborn in Winterfell.  That is unusual behavior for a noble - why does he not just make sure she's well taken care of and safe, instead of disrupting his family by bringing a child of mysterious parentage into his life?

It's not just that Ned fathered a bastard, it's that he brought the child home as a newborn infant, with no explanation.  There could be believable explanations - her family would not allow her to raise a bastard, or she died in childbirth - but no explanation at all.  

[shizett]

• I think if we are going to think about gossip it would not "start" after the appearance of Jon, it would have started from HH tourney. The same Prince abducted the same High born girl before another high profile event (Brandon and Cat's wedding, eldest children to two lord paramounts). The abduction would not stay hidden for long, especially after Brandon took it to KL and exposed it so publicly to everyone in the Capital city. Due to his capture they had to cancel the wedding so they had to provide some reason for it. Given that it is medieval times, events take a long time to happen giving people ample time to speculate. Although the abduction could have been entirely political, the crown prince's absence and his refusal to come forward until almost a year later would give weight to sexual speculations. Here people might be waiting for a baby to emerge, and BAM, right after war a baby does emerge, in the right family. (it was mentioned before)

13 hours ago, Edd Tollett's One Vote said:

In adding to 'why people wouldn't think about it or wouldn't suspect it', I have to ask: When do people find out about Ned Stark's bastard? I mean, if it's right after he comes back from The Tower of Joy, and he just has a baby, then it's definitely questionable for no one to ask questions.

• I agree with this. I think Robert probably never asked Ned because he just never saw the baby when Ned came back from South. Jon emerges in Winterfell, so maybe Ned got him back somewhere in the North. The fact that there are some speculations about him fathering a bastard on a fisherman's daughter might be a clue about Jon's reappearance or just political play on Ned's behalf. Also, I think the fact that he shut down all the rumors about Ashara Dayne being Jon's mother can have personal and political reasons: Personal because Cat was already worried about the issue of inheritance, thinking that Jon had a highborn mother could hardly help with the situation. It could also be the case that Ned really did have feelings for Ashara and just was protecting her honor or his own heart. Politically, if people start wondering about a noble born lady who died in the south in Starfall to be Jon's mother, they might very well start thinking about Lyanna too.
• Having a bastard is no big deal, bringing them home to grow under your highborn wife's nose is a very big deal. People keep remarking on this. Cat thinks about it. Cersei thinks of Cat as a coward for accepting it. We know of no other person who did this. Shouldn't this fact alone start some rumors? Why is Ned so interested in Jon? The only other bastards we know of that live with a respectable family are Edric Storm, Alayne Stone, and Frey bastards. Edric storm does not live with his father and was born under special circumstances. Alayne is LF's only child and she is supposed to marry the heir to Vale to further his political motives. Freys are just Freys! I also find it weird that people are not interested in Jon more openly. They should be.
• Jon wouldn't be just another Targ bastard. He would be a very very high profile Targ bastard. Rheagar was very popular in his time. Lyanna was the daughter of LP of the North. He was the reason for a war. He would not be a threat to Robert's reign but a definite threat to his successors. Do you really think that Robb would refuse Jon's request to help him claim his birth right from Joffrey? Even ignoring that Ned actually planned a coup to keep Robert's children succeed after him, Robb probably wouldn't.
• I would disagree that governing class would shut down these kind of rumors on the grounds that it was after war and people were uninterested. People are the most radical right after the war where the memory of war is so real. Ned judges Robert's obsession about killing Dany and her child not just because they're children, but also because it is so long after the war. This shows that even Ned thinks of these ideas as more understandable right after the war. Also, most of the reasons that are presented come from mentality of people who DO NOT rule. We witnessed wars that led great houses to extinction. Do you really think that ruling people would turn a blind eye to a potential threat to yet another war over succession?

I said all this to say that although I agree with those who say it is a bit stale after 15 years and natural for people not to think of it, I find it odd that people who think about the events past, still do not ponder about rumors.

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

13 hours ago, house of dayne said:

ned went from the tower of joy to starfall, supposedly with howland reed and baby jon...he would need a wet nurse as soon as possible...presumably wylla as edric dayne suggested...there must be people in starfall who know enough of the events to know who jon must be..servants who witnessed ned returning dawn with a new born baby desperate for mik..some might even have known what arthur was doing, whom he was serving and why he died at the hands of ned stark....how this secret remained in starfall is beyond me...good and loyal servants to keep the secret of the man who killed arthur dayne and drove ashara to her death, if the stories are true...

I would definitely agree that if we ever got the perspective of someone from Starfall (who was there at the time), and they have never considered that the baby could've been R+L's, then the people in Westeros are definitely not good at speculating. But, people further North, outside of Dorne, eh... probably depends when they find out about Jon. 

[purple-eyes]

IMHO it is entirely a plot demand that nobody even think about the possibility of RLJ. 

GRRM wanted to protect his mystery so he made this happen. 

Rumor of ashara dayne was known to winterfell as well as cersei the queen. Ashara is such a minor figure compared to lyanna who started a national bloody war and missed for one year with rhaegar. Try to imagine the response of public if a president abducted one woman and missed for one year, then you know how people will gossip on this and how easy to think they made a child somewhere. 

 

 

[Veloknight]

3 hours ago, shizett said:

<snip>

these are all great points. I'd say occam's razor still applies, and from the POV of the Westerosi elite, the simple explanation that Ned had a moment of weakness but that he's taking responsibility for it simply is the simplest explanation.

We do see a lot of speculation about Jon Snow, so I do think he's viewed as important. For all we know, many people have flirted with the idea, but without the evidence we see dismissed it as an unverifiable and dangerous hypothesis.

[shizett]

Just now, Veloknight said:

these are all great points. I'd say occam's razor still applies, and from the POV of the Westerosi elite, the simple explanation that Ned had a moment of weakness but that he's taking responsibility for it simply is the simplest explanation.

We do see a lot of speculation about Jon Snow, so I do think he's viewed as important. For all we know, many people have flirted with the idea, but without the evidence we see dismissed it as an unverifiable and dangerous hypothesis.

This I can totally agree with. But as someone wiser than me said some pages ago, if new evidence comes to light that can link Jon to Lyanna or Rheagar and people still refuse to think about it (there is a lack of thought) then I would take it as a flaw in the narrative.

[Veloknight]

Just now, shizett said:

This I can totally agree with. But as someone wiser than me said some pages ago, if new evidence comes to light that can link Jon to Lyanna or Rheagar and people still refuse to think about it (there is a lack of thought) then I would take it as a flaw in the narrative.

Agreed.

Even if it may not be common knowledge, it is really amusing to me to picture Jon Snow arriving in King's Landing and announcing himself as King, and the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, and everyone kinda looking awkwardly for a minute before someone pipes in, "yeah, makes sense."

[shizett]

2 minutes ago, Veloknight said:

Agreed.

Even if it may not be common knowledge, it is really amusing to me to picture Jon Snow arriving in King's Landing and announcing himself as King, and the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, and everyone kinda looking awkwardly for a minute before someone pipes in, "yeah, makes sense."

hahaha.

I think the OP is a good question because gossip and rumors are usually not based on facts, just (as someone else said earlier in the thread) interesting stuff, otherwise we all would be living in a much better world.

[purple-eyes]

4 minutes ago, Veloknight said:

Agreed.

Even if it may not be common knowledge, it is really amusing to me to picture Jon Snow arriving in King's Landing and announcing himself as King, and the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, and everyone kinda looking awkwardly for a minute before someone pipes in, "yeah, makes sense."

And people will also say: what the hell, why did not we think about this during last 17 years? this is all the fault of GRRM!

 

[sciteacher]

It occurs to me we may be over-rating public knowledge about Lyanna and Rhaegar.

The nearest thing we have to a commoner talking about them is Sir Barristan, who was a KG at the time. Other than him, the only characters who comment on the abduction/relationship are all Starks, Baratheons, Lannisters, or Targareyens. And none of them even hint at the birth of a child.

Brandon didn't rush into the throne room shouting for Lyanna, he called for Rhaegar.

The common man certainly connects "Ned's bastard" with Ned. Edric Dayne thinks Jon is Wylla's son by Ned. Lord Godric tells Davos Ned had a child with a fisherman's daughter. There are other rumors connecting Ned with Ashara Dayne and Wylla.

There was a war starting up. Thousands of people weren't where they usually were--for over a year. Some died and their bodies weren't identified, some probably deserted, people moved away to escape battles, there was likely a lot of sickness. People were too busy to gossip about Princes or daughters of lords. And by the time the war ended and things finally settled back to normal, Lyanna and Rhaegar would have been old news, not worth repeating, if anyone even thought of it--indeed, if anyone had ever heard any hint of it.

[BalerionTheCat]

Yes, I had this idea too.

But Ned let it known: Jon was his son. And everyone is repeating it: "Ned's bastard". And even Cat is furious with Ned and the boy about that. Ned had a bastard during the war. Such things happen. No one knows when and where it happened. But whoever is the mother, Jon is a bastard. So why bother? Why question what other people say? What other people saw.

And Jon looks nothing like Rhaegar. Rhaegar is dead, Lyanna to. Rhaegar abducted her, and this resulted in her death. Why would he had a child with her?

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Yes, I had this idea too.

But Ned let it known: Jon was his son. And everyone is repeating it: "Ned's bastard". And even Cat is furious with Ned and the boy about that. Ned had a bastard during the war. Such things happen. No one knows when and where it happened. But whoever is the mother, Jon is a bastard. So why bother? Why question what other people say? What other people saw.

And Jon looks nothing like Rhaegar. Rhaegar is dead, Lyanna to. Rhaegar abducted her, and this resulted in her death. Why would he had a child with her?

Because a man usually did not abduct a woman whom he publicly named as his queen of love to just talk with her and sing sad songs for one year?

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

Because a man usually did not abduct a woman whom he publicly named as his queen of love to just talk with her and sing sad songs for one year?

Well, for most people, it was not betrothal. There was a war. Many people died. Abduction, rape and death. A lot of unpleasant things. Robert had painted Rhaegar so black. You do not associate that with a romance. The birth of a child was unlikely. Even if Lyanna became pregnant, at some point, the probability to deliver would be low. The child surviving still less, if no one cared for him. A child that Ned would not protect. Not at the cost of his honor.

So again, Why question what other people said and saw? Only Robert should really have suspected something. But apparently he was finding Ned with a bastard so funny. And anyway, thinking was not Robert's best part.

I do not say that none of the smart schemers (Varys, LF, whoever else) suspecting Jon's parents, is easy to swallow. But the historical context makes it relatively easy to accept.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

10 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The birth of a child was unlikely. Even if Lyanna became pregnant, at some point, the probability to deliver would be low. The child surviving still less, if no one cared for him. A child that Ned would not protect. Not at the cost of his honor.

This reminds me of something some anti-choice Republican politician said a couple of years back against exemptions to abortion laws for victims of rape - that a woman's body has a natural way of protecting against pregnancy in cases of rape and that it was very unlikely for rape victims to get pregnant.  It made national news because it is blatantly wrong.  There is no reason to believe that a raped Lyanna would be less likely to conceive a child and carry it to term than a consensual Lyanna.  And the idea that child-protecting Ned would not protect his sister's child because it was a child of rape, ESPECIALLY when she may have made him promise to do so with her dying breath, is equally ridiculous.

[BalerionTheCat]

9 minutes ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

This reminds me of something some anti-choice Republican politician said a couple of years back against exemptions to abortion laws for victims of rape - that a woman's body has a natural way of protecting against pregnancy in cases of rape and that it was very unlikely for rape victims to get pregnant.  It made national news because it is blatantly wrong.  There is no reason to believe that a raped Lyanna would be less likely to conceive a child and carry it to term than a consensual Lyanna.  And the idea that child-protecting Ned would not protect his sister's child because it was a child of rape, ESPECIALLY when she may have made him promise to do so with her dying breath, is equally ridiculous.

I was not referring to these ideas. They are totally stupid. My point was that the living conditions would be awful. And a child from Lyanna and Rhaegar would not be in the mind of anyone. And from anyone point of view, Ned could have just told the truth. We known Ned is not like that. That is the point.