Heresy 182

[Melifeather]

45 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I happen to agree that, when Jon comes back in the books, I favor the notion that he would come back as a "Coldhands-esque" sentient wight, but even so, the logistics of uniting Mel with Dany in the books is impractical, at least for the foreseeable future. For one thing, she's effectively one of the most powerful people at the Wall, in the sense that the "Queen's men" are the most well armed and well trained faction present. For another, Dany already has Moqorro looking to attach himself to her, and is also under the influence of Quaithe.

I see Jon's resurrection to be more like Beric Dondarrion and Lady Stoneheart. I don't recall if either were described as having black hands, but Beric seemed to be able to descern if people were being truthful or not through his trials, both by questioning and trial by combat. He also had the gift of sight somehow. Either he was using the weirwood system like Bloodraven to see the future or present, or he had some type of greensight. His followers made comments that he had such skills. Of course Beric said each time he was resurrected he lost some of himself, but Coldhands seems very preserved. I think the means of resurrection in his case used ice magic, whereas Beric and possibly Jon will be fire magic, which is a more lifelike resurrection but with some "parts" like memories consumed.

[Armstark]

1 hour ago, shizett said:

Why would manipulation of the world be evil though? That's the part I do not understand. And how can we as humans, parts of natural world, create something unnatural? There was these ways that they discovered (like spells and who knows what else) and manipulated the world around them. I am not sure how you get to the creation of magic.

Oh, I thought it was clear that I agree with you that we have not seen much good things come out of magic. But skinchanging can actually be a good thing, it can foster relations between humans and non-humans, at least that is my take on it.

As for Bran, well, nobody has said he cannot be healed by any kind of magic. He cannot be healed by Ice magic (or whatever it is that BR practices), maybe the red priests could heal him. I think Thoros could both heal and resurrect Beric every time. Moqorro also healed Victarion's hand. Also, there might be something political going on too, it might be the case that BR can heal Bran, but chooses not to, so to keep him close or something.

But either way, why should magic be all powerful? Back to my favorite example of Nuclear energy, it can destroy cities and provide immense amounts of energy and it cannot heal a simple wound. So, what of it?

Berric does not get healed by Thoros. Yes, he gets resurrected but he retains all his injuries like the smashed in head and the missing eye. Victarion's hand is not healed either but changed in some way. The shift in perspective in that chapter even suggests that Victarion actually died and was resurrected (or at least his hand died).

 

The point is that magic is not all powerful but rather tilts heavily to the "evil" side with good things like healing being impossible.

[Armstark]

6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I see Jon's resurrection to be more like Beric Dondarrion and Lady Stoneheart. I don't recall if either were described as having black hands, but Beric seemed to be able to descern if people were being truthful or not through his trials, both by questioning and trial by combat. He also had the gift of sight somehow. Either he was using the weirwood system like Bloodraven to see the future or present, or he had some type of greensight. His followers made comments that he had such skills. Of course Beric said each time he was resurrected he lost some of himself, but Coldhands seems very preserved. I think the means of resurrection in his case used ice magic, whereas Beric and possibly Jon will be fire magic, which is a more lifelike resurrection but with some "parts" like memories consumed.

I think much more than memories were lost when Berric was resurrected. His soul already moved on and what we see now is just a dead shell which did retain some memories of his former self. The human being Berric is long dead.

 

With Jon this could be different because his soul did not move on to the beyond (or the trees or whatever) but lives his second life in Ghost. So Jon could be made whole again (body, mind and soul) if someone manages to resurrect his body and  transfer the soul back into his body from Ghost. Sadly, I think Ghost will have to die for that (But don't worry his soul will live on in Jon).

[Black Crow]

55 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Eventually, perhaps, if Mel lives that long, but if Stannis dies in the books I think it's still more likely that she attaches herself to Jon in the interim, and even more likely in the show. I can't recall the exact quote from the books where she's trying to seduce Jon, but I seem to recall her suggesting that she could use him to cast powerful shadows, and her attempts are even more overt in the show.

I happen to agree that, when Jon comes back in the books, I favor the notion that he would come back as a "Coldhands-esque" sentient wight, but even so, the logistics of uniting Mel with Dany in the books is impractical, at least for the foreseeable future. For one thing, she's effectively one of the most powerful people at the Wall, in the sense that the "Queen's men" are the most well armed and well trained faction present. For another, Dany already has Moqorro looking to attach himself to her, and is also under the influence of Quaithe.

That said, I stand behind the assumption that there's going to be a lot more to Stannis' book plot than the show's adaptation, just as there's probably more to Mance's plot than the show adaptation. I think the show is well beyond the point where the decision to cut characters and plotlines is just a matter of trimming the fat, and I don't think "is this important in the books" is nearly as important a question as "is this important to the character and world stories we've established."

I think that some if this may be a matter of who is attaching themselves to who and why. Stannis is relatively straightforward example of symbiosis in that we meet him as a warrior of renown with a claim to the Iron Throne who makes a Devil's bargain with Mel; taking on the role she wants in order to secure the role he wants. She for her part is at once his most loyal servant and supporter, yet at the same time tries to manipulate him for her own ends.

Jon is a different matter.

For a time shortly after she meets him he has a degree of power, limited by his role as Lord Commander. She tries, as you recall, to seduce him, not to replace Stannis but presumably as a source of shadow babies, although I do wonder whether all of the life essence which she draws out of Stannis is required for that [limited?] purpose or whether she herself also feeds upon it as a succubus.

At all events, right now Jon, unlike Stannis is no longer a leader, far less a king, let alone recognised by her however mistakenly as Azor Ahai. He is in fact lying face down in the snow. She may, for all we know, try her hand at raising him for some nefarious purpose of her own, but the relationship would be very different from that with Stannis.

[Black Crow]

2 minutes ago, Armstark said:

I think much more than memories were lost when Berric was resurrected. His soul already moved on and what we see now is just a dead shell which did retain some memories of his former self. The human being Berric is long dead.

With Jon this could be different because his soul did not move on to the beyond (or the trees or whatever) but lives his second life in Ghost. So Jon could be made whole again (body, mind and soul) if someone manages to resurrect his body and  transfer the soul back into his body from Ghost. Sadly, I think Ghost will have to die for that (But don't worry his soul will live on in Jon).

I'm rather inclined to go along with this and would just add the dual observation that successfully re-uniting body and soul, as appears to be the case with Coldhands presumably requires the knowledge and magic of the old gods rather than the new, while at the same time we also have to consider the age-old question of cui bono; who benefits? Given that he's just been struck down in a coup and that Mel hasn't suddenly decided that she made a mistake with Stannis and that Jon's her boy - what incentive does she have to raise him? Why would she do it? Conversely first as a son of Winterfell and now acknowledged King of the Wall [they aint beyond it anymore] there is potential for him to play a significant role in the cold.

[Melifeather]

25 minutes ago, Armstark said:

I think much more than memories were lost when Berric was resurrected. His soul already moved on and what we see now is just a dead shell which did retain some memories of his former self. The human being Berric is long dead.

 

With Jon this could be different because his soul did not move on to the beyond (or the trees or whatever) but lives his second life in Ghost. So Jon could be made whole again (body, mind and soul) if someone manages to resurrect his body and  transfer the soul back into his body from Ghost. Sadly, I think Ghost will have to die for that (But don't worry his soul will live on in Jon).

The type of resurrection done on Beric and Catelyn, and likely Coldhands is a step above of what you assert regarding Beric. All three are far and above the wight-like existence you and BC ascribe. Beric and Catelyn were never wargs/skinchangers so that cannot be an explanation for how they seem very cognizant in their thought and communication, whereas wights only stumble around with a slight memory of what they once were. They are not shells. They are truly resurrected.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, shizett said:

Why would manipulation of the world be evil though? That's the part I do not understand. And how can we as humans, parts of natural world, create something unnatural? 

 

The magic we've seen so far is evil in that it subverts nature. The Long Night was not a natural occurring event, GRRM has said that the dodgy seasons have a magical rather than a physical cause, causing the dead to walk is not natural and while GRRM has declined to take the wonder out of magic by laying down rules of magic, it is his world and his magic and none of that magic is pretty.

The Wall is made of blood and magic and considered by the Wildlings at least to be evil and its also worth bearing in mind Tobho Mott's complaint that dividing Ice into two blades was all the more difficult because it kept trying to rejoin itself, which hardly sounds like something inanimate.

Perhaps the blood so essential to magic is important because it carries part of the soul of the donor.

[shizett]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

The type of resurrection done on Beric and Catelyn, and likely Coldhands is a step above of what you assert regarding Beric. All three are far and above the wight-like existence you and BC ascribe. Beric and Catelyn were never wargs/skinchangers so that cannot be an explanation for how they seem very cognizant in their thought and communication, whereas wights only stumble around with a slight memory of what they once were. They are not shells. They are truly resurrected.

I agree with this.

[shizett]

2 hours ago, Armstark said:

Berric does not get healed by Thoros. Yes, he gets resurrected but he retains all his injuries like the smashed in head and the missing eye. Victarion's hand is not healed either but changed in some way. The shift in perspective in that chapter even suggests that Victarion actually died and was resurrected (or at least his hand died).

 

The point is that magic is not all powerful but rather tilts heavily to the "evil" side with good things like healing being impossible.

I think the difference is when talking about magic, I tend to accept a magical solution since I do not see a variation on current forces but a force on its own. So, for me Victarion's hand is an example of healing. You seem to only accept the exact same result you would get without magic to be gained through magic. I get it then why you get so irked by it.

Thanks for the discussion, at least now I can follow the line of reasoning. I really couldn't before

16 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I or rather what we've seen so far is evil in that it subverts nature. The Long Night was not a natural occurring event, GRRM has said that the dodgy seasons have a magical rather than a physical cause, causing the dead to walk is not natural and while GRRM has declined to take the wonder out of magic by laying down rules of magic, it is his world and his magic and none of that magic is pretty.

The Wall is made of blood and magic and considered by the Wildlings at least to be evil and its also worth bearing in mind Tobho Mott's complaint that dividing Ice into two blades was all the more difficult because it kept trying to rejoin itself, which hardly sounds like something inanimate.

BC, I think we are going in rounds. How can we possibly know what is natural in a magical world? Was the long night desirable for humans? No. Was is a sign of imbalance? Maybe. But we cannot possibly know. Who says balance should favor humans in any way? I know we are humans and GRRM is human and probably this is not his take, but I also do not need to draw conclusions already. Why do you?

There is so little knowledge about magic in this world that these kind of statements make little sense to me. We cannot decide that magic is evil and then understand everything accordingly. A magical world is different than ours, maybe even in drastic ways.

I hear what you say and I think I now understand your (collective) meaning, so while not fully agreeing, I will not drag the discussion (especially because so many of you already are discussing something else).

27 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Perhaps the blood so essential to magic is important because it carries part of the soul of the donor.

Yes, maybe. There seems to be some form of transference in some cases.

 

But on a different note, where is the blood sacrifice in red priests? Especially Thoros? Does it come from those others who they hang? How do they preserve the life force?

[Matthew.]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

At all events, right now Jon, unlike Stannis is no longer a leader, far less a king, let alone recognised by her however mistakenly as Azor Ahai. He is in fact lying face down in the snow. She may, for all we know, try her hand at raising him for some nefarious purpose of her own, but the relationship would be very different from that with Stannis.

Without knowing what Mel does or does not know about resurrection, we cannot say how she'd actually react to Jon returning--if she performs the Last Kiss as a death rite, only for Jon to rise reborn and "cleansed" by the fire, as the Red Priests believe, she may very well take this as a sign that he's something more than just a potential ally.

And, at the risk of granting too much significance to the show's adaptation, although I favor the "Coldhands" interpretation, it's worth tempering expectations; there's no established undead like Coldhands in the show, and Mel has just made a timely return to the Wall with the realization that she was wrong about Stannis. All of this, after proclaiming the show-exclusive prophecy that she'd seen herself "walking the walls of Winterfell, with the Bolton banners burning." Now, this may be the two adaptations wildly diverging, or it could just be the show cutting to the chase, setting Melisandre up to find a new champion.

[Matthew.]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

They are not shells. They are truly resurrected.

GRRM has actually commented on this in an EW interview:

"Lady Stoneheart is not Cateyln. I’ve tried to set it up beforehand with Beric Dondarrion and his repeated [resurrections]. There’s a brief appearance by Beric in Book One and he rides into the city and he’s this flamboyant Southern knight. That’s not that man we meet later on."

You can also dig up an SSM where GRRM says there's a significance to the fact that Catelyn no longer has POVs.

[Black Crow]

6 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

And, at the risk of granting too much significance to the show's adaptation, although I favor the "Coldhands" interpretation, it's worth tempering expectations; there's no established undead like Coldhands in the show, and Mel has just made a timely return to the Wall with the realization that she was wrong about Stannis. All of this, after proclaiming the show-exclusive prophecy that she'd seen herself "walking the walls of Winterfell, with the Bolton banners burning." Now, this may be the two adaptations wildly diverging, or it could just be the show cutting to the chase, setting Melisandre up to find a new champion.

True, but I can still see this going in a couple of ways.

In both the book and the mummers' version Beric's resurrection comes to us at second hand, in so far that we neither see him die [the first time around] nor rise from the dead - until Jaime later "kills" him. Mel, uncanonically meets Thoros in the mummers version and expresses surprise that he can do the trick, which by inference suggests that she herself can do it but only because she's the super hot-shot priestess she thinks she is.

Jon's apparent death in the mummers' version was much more explicit and shocking than in the book, so bringing him back needs to be just as much of a shocker and with no Coldhands to guide us and no Val either, it does look as though Mel may be the one to perform the old voodoo trick, although the likely circumstances elude me.

What I think may still happen, to gloss over the absence of Val, is that Mel might try to raise a Beric, but it being up north and Jon being a son of Winterfell, it goes wrong from her viewpoint and she raises Coldhands instead, thus preparing the way for Jon going over to the dark side and as a cold dead thing not being bothered about the equally cold blue-eyed lot. I rather think this more likely than Jon being turned into a creature of fire, especially as the mummers' version has treated Mel as a villain from the go get.

[Black Crow]

19 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

GRRM has actually commented on this in an EW interview:

"Lady Stoneheart is not Cateyln. I’ve tried to set it up beforehand with Beric Dondarrion and his repeated [resurrections]. There’s a brief appearance by Beric in Book One and he rides into the city and he’s this flamboyant Southern knight. That’s not that man we meet later on."

You can also dig up an SSM where GRRM says there's a significance to the fact that Catelyn no longer has POVs.

 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, shizett said:

So, for me Victarion's hand is an example of healing. 

Nah, I'm with Armstark on this one. There's no way you can describe Victarion's arm as healed and as he says, he loses his POV during the process, just as Catelyn does when she dies and becomes Lady Stoneheart. Victarion has become another Beric, but thus far he's oblivious to it.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

GRRM has actually commented on this in an EW interview:

"Lady Stoneheart is not Cateyln. I’ve tried to set it up beforehand with Beric Dondarrion and his repeated [resurrections]. There’s a brief appearance by Beric in Book One and he rides into the city and he’s this flamboyant Southern knight. That’s not that man we meet later on."

You can also dig up an SSM where GRRM says there's a significance to the fact that Catelyn no longer has POVs.

Thank you for this information, but surely you see that they are more aware than wights? Wights do not speak nor even move during daylight hours. 

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Thank you for this information, but surely you see that they are more aware than wights? Wights do not speak nor even move during daylight hours. 

Sure they're different than the ice wights, in the sense that they're autonomous and intelligent, but it's harder to say whether or not we should say that the person they were has been resurrected.

For example, something that used to be Catelyn Stark was brought back, but can we imagine her returning to her old life, to being a mother again to Bran, Rickon, etc., returning to being a noble of Riverrun and Winterfell? From the way I interpret her, this is impossible--my take is that the only thing that's left of Catelyn is a strong impulse for revenge, and that she has no deeper motive in life than to punish Freys, Boltons, and Lannisters, that she's no longer a complete person. She has (some) memory, but no complexity of emotion, and what remains is mostly a terrible drive to accomplish her goals.

More speculatively, I agree that there's far less going on with the wights in terms of intelligence. I'd go as far as to say that I don't think they even operate on old instincts, and that there's absolutely nothing left of the person they used to be--I think the wights are specifically being controlled and directed in a manner that's not dissimilar to skinchanging.

What all of this means for Jon's return is harder to say, but my suspicion is that "more" of Jon will return than we've seen in other resurrections, because, like many readers, I think that Jon is preserving his soul/consciousness in Ghost.

[Black Crow]

There are degrees of difference here to be sure but I'm mindful of the fact that we're discussing a work of fiction written by an author who has declined to set out any rules of magic, which he has justified by saying that to do so would take away the necessary mystery and wonder [I forget his exact words] and reduce it to a mechanical process. While this is perfectly true it also means that he himself can use it exactly as he wants without tedious explanation - or consistency.

Thus the wights in general behave as they do in order to create the implacable, unreasoning and consequently terrifying enemy that stormed the Fist, whilst Othor and Jafer both displayed a wholly inconsistent degree of initiative. Was this because the great magic of the Wall provided the extra magical power, or was it simply because GRRM needed it to happen. Do we distinguish between the magical virus [for want of a better term] animating first Beric and then Catelyn and that which keeps Coldhands going in terms of a measurable difference between Ice and Fire magic, or is it because GRRM needs them to behave as they do? And where does Victarion fit in?

In short, while there are greater demons and lesser demons, how far do we need to go in classifying them and is it not sufficient that in Martin's World the dead can walk in mysterious and unpredictable ways? 

[Black Crow]

Or to put it another way, while it amuses us to try and create that hierarchy of greater and lesser demons, is it one which GRRM would recognise?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There are degrees of difference here to be sure but I'm mindful of the fact that we're discussing a work of fiction written by an author who has declined to set out any rules of magic, which he has justified by saying that to do so would take away the necessary mystery and wonder [I forget his exact words] and reduce it to a mechanical process. While this is perfectly true it also means that he himself can use it exactly as he wants without tedious explanation - or consistency.

Thus the wights in general behave as they do in order to create the implacable, unreasoning and consequently terrifying enemy that stormed the Fist, whilst Othor and Jafer both displayed a wholly inconsistent degree of initiative. Was this because the great magic of the Wall provided the extra magical power, or was it simply because GRRM needed it to happen. Do we distinguish between the magical virus [for want of a better term] animating first Beric and then Catelyn and that which keeps Coldhands going in terms of a measurable difference between Ice and Fire magic, or is it because GRRM needs them to behave as they do? And where does Victarion fit in?

In short, while there are greater demons and lesser demons, how far do we need to go in classifying them and is it not sufficient that in Martin's World the dead can walk in mysterious and unpredictable ways? 

 

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Or to put it another way, while it amuses us to try and create that hierarchy of greater and lesser demons, is it one which GRRM would recognise?

 

I agree. Most likely we are putting more thought into it than GRRM is.

Coldhands seems unique. He looks like a wight but does not quack like a wight.  It could be that he and Beric and Stoneheart are all similar undead beings although Coldhands seems to have been around a long, long time.

So, setting Coldhands to the side for the moment, the undead Beric and Catelyn operate similarly to the other undead. The necromancy does not need to come directly from the original source. The priest gives the kiss of life to Beric. Beric passes it on to Cat.  This is no exactly the same way the wights operate yet it is very similar in the way wights can create more wights.  And that's what I take from it. The original provider does not need to be present for the necromancy to work.

[Melifeather]

15 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Sure they're different than the ice wights, in the sense that they're autonomous and intelligent, but it's harder to say whether or not we should say that the person they were has been resurrected.

For example, something that used to be Catelyn Stark was brought back, but can we imagine her returning to her old life, to being a mother again to Bran, Rickon, etc., returning to being a noble of Riverrun and Winterfell? From the way I interpret her, this is impossible--my take is that the only thing that's left of Catelyn is a strong impulse for revenge, and that she has no deeper motive in life than to punish Freys, Boltons, and Lannisters, that she's no longer a complete person. She has (some) memory, but no complexity of emotion, and what remains is mostly a terrible drive to accomplish her goals.

More speculatively, I agree that there's far less going on with the wights in terms of intelligence. I'd go as far as to say that I don't think they even operate on old instincts, and that there's absolutely nothing left of the person they used to be--I think the wights are specifically being controlled and directed in a manner that's not dissimilar to skinchanging.

What all of this means for Jon's return is harder to say, but my suspicion is that "more" of Jon will return than we've seen in other resurrections, because, like many readers, I think that Jon is preserving his soul/consciousness in Ghost.

I see what you are saying regarding Catelyn and Beric, but I think your hopes for Jon are SOL (shit outta luck). We learned by Varamyr's example that once your body dies the soul/spirit of a warg/skinchanger is severed and he didn't have control over where it went. Luckily he still had a connection to One Eye and so was drawn into that host. If Jon's body dies, he will likely go into Ghost, but he cannot leave again. At least not of his own volition. He'll become part of Ghost. If Melisandre is able to draw Jon's soul/spirit out of Ghost and back into his dead body, then this would challenge what you and BC are saying about Beric and Lady Stoneheart.