Heresy 182

[Black Crow]

Oh this is very much a story of men. 

 

Well, the readers are certainly free to wonder about the validity of these religions, the truth of these religions, and the teachings of these religions. I'm a little leery of the word "true" — whether any of these religions are more true than others. I mean, look at the analogue of our real world. We have many religions too. Are some of them more true than others? I don't think any gods are likely to be showing up in Westeros, any more than they already do. We're not going to have one appearing, deus ex machina, to affect the outcomes of things, no matter how hard anyone prays. So the relation between the religions and the various magics that some people have here is something that the reader can try to puzzle out.      GRRM 1999

[Melifeather]

8 hours ago, WitteRaaf said:

 

 

4 hours ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

There are those who try to live forever and are even succeeding. So far.  I think that the escape of death, the attempt to prolong life is the heart of the magic we see. The second lives of the skinchangers. The greenseers who prolong their lives through the weirwoods and live a second life as part of the tree. A tree that will live forever if unmolested.  The Undying Ones with their blue heart. Melisandre, Lord Beric. The Others.

The mystical side of the story is all about death and the attempt to escape it. When I said that magic is created, this is where I was coming from. The dire wolf is not magic. The fire that Thoros or Mel stare into is not magic. Even the weirwoods are not magic. (so I am coming to believe) The cotf found that the acorns of the forever tree could be used to bond with the tree and so used this to give life a second chance, among other things. 

It is the actions that are magical. And those actions are prolonging life in some manner by sacrifice. Either the sacrifice of others or oneself. It may even something from the past that is still in effect like the bond between dragon and rider or wolf and First Man. 

To keep the soul or spirit or animus, or whatever you want to call it, sustained is the ultimate goal of magical actions.

 

To both...it does seem as if the House of Black and White is a house for magic. They claim that their god is the Many Faced God of Death. I think most readers recognize that working magic requires blood or lifeforce sacrifice, either weakening the human victim or outright death. Is the Kindly Old Man correct that all religions are about death?

The Faith of the Seven claims to hate all magic and seeks to destroy it. They do recognize it, otherwise they wouldn't be warding themselves with their image of the seven pointed star.

Magic is the only religion that seeks to resurrect life, but the person is never fully whole, and in some instances they really aren't cognizant at all. What do practicers of magic really want then? Is it power? The promise of extending life gives it's priests and priestesses power. Anyone else want to add in?

[WitteRaaf]

Just to prevent any possibility of a misunderstanding, I'm not here to discuss any real world religion.  The characters in the books use the existence and or their belief in the gods to justify their actions.  I only wondered as to the significance of using sometimes (G)od and sometimes (g)od.  I do think the story is in many ways about a supposed deity and the other that opposes him. Purely speculation.  After all there are many grey areas, and the story is also about the inner struggles of the characters. 

[Black Crow]

I think we're very much talking not about gods, and certainly not the intervention of Gods, in this story, but rather what the various characters do, for good or evil, in the name of those gods: whether it is to draw strength from their faith, justify their actions in terms of that faith whether of their own volition or a belief that their faith requires them to act in such a way; the end justifying the means, or alternatively do they "rationalise" the magic they deploy not as an uncertain science but as a gift from their gods?

[Black Crow]

54 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Faith of the Seven claims to hate all magic and seeks to destroy it. They do recognize it, otherwise they wouldn't be warding themselves with their image of the seven pointed star.

This, I think, fits to a degree what I've just said above. I don't think that the Seven seek to destroy magic as such but recognise it as a force of chaos and seek instead to promote themselves as a force for stability - which of course would provide another example of opposed forces.

[Armstark]

Since things are kind of slow I want to bounce something new off you guys. I spent way to much time studying the Targaryen family tree and I noticed something weird: The prominence of fifthborn in it.

I am not only talking about prominent fifthborn (although there are several) but the first thing I noticed was actually how much space they and their descendants take up on the page (in TWoIaF). Alysanne and her children take up most of the top, the middle puts seemingly unimportant Eleana and her children front and center and the bottom is dominated by Aegon V and his children.

 

So at this point I thought yeah maybe its kind of weird but most likely you are just over analyzing things. Nevertheless I run a search of "fifthborn" in all the books and there is just this one instant of the word being used:

 

Quote

In truth, he was here because Melisandre had asked for him. The four eldest sons of Davos Seaworth had perished in the battle on the Blackwater, when the king's fleet had been consumed by green fire. Devan was the fifthborn and safer here with her than at the king's side.

 

This got me exited because I remembered why I was looking at the family tree in the first place: my suspicion that Melisandre did the very same thing before coming to the conclusion that Stannis is her guy.

The quote seems innocent enough but as with all things GRRM it could be interpreted a different way. Maybe Devan was especially worth saving to Melisandre because he is the fifthborn.

 

So here is my suspicion: somewhere in the prophecies/stories of Azor Ahai/tPtwP there is something about a fifthborn.

 

Stannis' Targaryen ancestor Rhaelle was of course a fifthborn (the fifthborn of a fifthborn no less). Furthermore Stannis is at the same position relative to his fifthborn ancestor as is Rhaella Targaryen (mother of Rhaegar) to her fifthborn ancestor (Aegon V): The secondborn grandchild. 

 

Rhaella was the chosen one to carry the child (Rhaegar) that was supposed to be transformed into (or sacrificed for) dragons at Summerhall.

 

You see where I am going with this?

 

 

Of course there were all wrong in their interpretation because Daenerys is the one to bring back dragons. Interestingly enough she is a fifhtborn if the Lannister twins are Aerys'. 

[Melifeather]

I don't know that anything really stands out for me other than the fifthborn being "unlikely" to do or be something. Wasn't Aegon V known as the Unlikely? So, if the Targaryens had knew about the fifthborn would they have called him the Unlikely?

Regarding Cersei and Jaime...I wouldn't be surprised if Aerys were their father. Joanna was friends with Rhaella and one of her court ladies. Tywin abruptly took her back to Castle Rock, but it's Tyrion that he wasn't sure was his. If there were any truth to the bastardy of Cersei and Jaime you'd think Tywin would be more wary of his presumed favorite and desired heir, Jaime..

[Armstark]

3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I don't know that anything really stands out for me other than the fifthborn being "unlikely" to do or be something. Wasn't Aegon V known as the Unlikely? So, if the Targaryens had knew about the fifthborn would they have called him the Unlikely?

Regarding Cersei and Jaime...I wouldn't be surprised if Aerys were their father. Joanna was friends with Rhaella and one of her court ladies. Tywin abruptly took her back to Castle Rock, but it's Tyrion that he wasn't sure was his. If there were any truth to the bastardy of Cersei and Jaime you'd think Tywin would be more wary of his presumed favorite and desired heir, Jaime..

I am glad you brought up Aegon V. and his unlikely ascend to the throne. Many have speculated that it was Bloodraven that manipulated events so that Egg was the one who got the crown. Maybe he did it to put a fifthborn on the throne!

 

I am not sure who started the epithet "the Unlikely" but my guess is that it wasn't the Targaryens (since it is kind of derogatory). 

 

As to Aerys and the Golden Twins: I am aware that this is a very contentious issue and not many people (want to) believe they are secret Targaryens. Nevertheless I am convinced of it  But that is really a topic for another day.

 

 

To reiterate what is supposed to stand out (I know it is a bit convoluted):

Rhalla's unborn child was supposed to be sacrificed at Summerhall to fulfill the prophecy and bring back dragons. 

She is the secondborn grandchild of the fifthtborn Aegon V.

Stannis is the secondborn grandchild of the fifthborn Rhaelle and is supposed to wake dragons from stone as well.

 

So Melisandre thinks Stannis is Azor Ahai because he is the secondborn grandchild of a fifthborn Targaryen.

[Lady Dyanna]

Since things are kind of slow I want to bounce something new off you guys. I spent way to much time studying the Targaryen family tree and I noticed something weird: The prominence of fifthborn in it.

I am not only talking about prominent fifthborn (although there are several) but the first thing I noticed was actually how much space they and their descendants take up on the page (in TWoIaF). Alysanne and her children take up most of the top, the middle puts seemingly unimportant Eleana and her children front and center and the bottom is dominated by Aegon V and his children.

 

So at this point I thought yeah maybe its kind of weird but most likely you are just over analyzing things. Nevertheless I run a search of "fifthborn" in all the books and there is just this one instant of the word being used:

 

In truth, he was here because Melisandre had asked for him. The four eldest sons of Davos Seaworth had perished in the battle on the Blackwater, when the king's fleet had been consumed by green fire. Devan was the fifthborn and safer here with her than at the king's side.

 

This got me exited because I remembered why I was looking at the family tree in the first place: my suspicion that Melisandre did the very same thing before coming to the conclusion that Stannis is her guy.

The quote seems innocent enough but as with all things GRRM it could be interpreted a different way. Maybe Devan was especially worth saving to Melisandre because he is the fifthborn.

 

So here is my suspicion: somewhere in the prophecies/stories of Azor Ahai/tPtwP there is something about a fifthborn.

 

Stannis' Targaryen ancestor Rhaelle was of course a fifthborn (the fifthborn of a fifthborn no less). Furthermore Stannis is at the same position relative to his fifthborn ancestor as is Rhaella Targaryen (mother of Rhaegar) to her fifthborn ancestor (Aegon V): The secondborn grandchild. 

 

Rhaella was the chosen one to carry the child (Rhaegar) that was supposed to be transformed into (or sacrificed for) dragons at Summerhall.

 

You see where I am going with this?

 

 

Of course there were all wrong in their interpretation because Daenerys is the one to bring back dragons. Interestingly enough she is a fifhtborn if the Lannister twins are Aerys'. 

Don't forget that Daenerys truly isn't a third born even if things stay as they are. Rhaella had several miscarriages and still births but at least one child was born alive and survived a short time.

[Melifeather]

If Aerys and Rhaella are Dany's parents, she is the eleventh child. It would have been cool if she were the 10th (5 & 5). However, if she's actually Rhaegar's daughter instead of sister, she is his third child which of course fits the child of three, but very difficult to find a way to make her a fifthborn.

 

The only other tidbit to share for now is an SSM (that I am still searching for) that talked about whether or not Egg had made a good king. Basically GRRM said that being a good person didn't mean they would make a good king. I know I've read the SSM recently, so maybe one of the other Last Hearther's may remember it also?

 

[Black Crow]

All I can say at this stage in the absence of anything specific in the text, is that the seventh son of a seventh son is traditionally "blessed" with powers, whether it be of prophecy or anything else, so in theory there's no reason why GRRM shouldn't adapt it to be five instead of seven - especially when we do have an overt focus on the Seven.

[shizett]

Does it only apply to Targaryans?

Bran is the fifthborn if Jon is Ned's. If Jon is not Ned's (as many suspect), then Rickon (the kid with Green Eyed Direwolf!) is.

[Lord Ravenstark]

All I can say at this stage in the absence of anything specific in the text, is that the seventh son of a seventh son is traditionally "blessed" with powers, whether it be of prophecy or anything else, so in theory there's no reason why GRRM shouldn't adapt it to be five instead of seven - especially when we do have an overt focus on the Seven.

In some places it is just "seventh son", specially if all other siblings are from same gender (females). See Latin people's traditions (from Werewolf tales in Hispanic America to Strygoi in Romanian tales). But I don't think it is the right spot. Westerosi people aren't really known to have many children. Seventh son of a seventh son must be so rare it may never have existed one.

Crow, could you share with us any insight about Scots mythology, that would fit our little Starks?

[Lord Ravenstark]

Meanwhile, I would like to point out that some knowledge people have are just assumptions and not really part of to books. Two come to my mind instantly, the idea that Lyanna had grey eyes. It seems pretty minor, but you can see people quoting it as fact. We don't know Lyanna's eye color. It is just to illustrate that sometimes we are prone to assumption.

Like claiming Bloodraven was albino. The Ghost of HH was the only human albino we are explicitly referenced. In fact, claiming Bloodraven is an albino makes no sense, unless albinism works very differently in Westeros. He has pure white skin, when an albino would have a pale skin similar to people of European descent. Red eyes are not a trait of albinism, unless you are a rabbit, albinos have blue eyes, rare are the ones with eyes in a pink/violet tone. Hair of an albino is blonde, not pure white. Albinos have very poor eyesight, claiming one to be a skilled archer is a bit outlandish.

It is wise not to assume something as fact.

[Melifeather]

23 minutes ago, shizett said:

Does it only apply to Targaryans?

Bran is the fifthborn if Jon is Ned's. If Jon is not Ned's (as many suspect), then Rickon (the kid with Green Eyed Direwolf!) is.

Very interesting observation and would fit with some poster's wonderings if Rickon is the chosen one.

[shizett]

Just now, Feather Crystal said:

Very interesting observation and would fit with some poster's wonderings if Rickon is the chosen one.

After writing it though I realized that @Armstark specifically thought BR was responsible for ascent of Aegon V to the throne because he was a fifthborn, so...

[Lord Ravenstark]

Does it only apply to Targaryans?

Bran is the fifthborn if Jon is Ned's. If Jon is not Ned's (as many suspect), then Rickon (the kid with Green Eyed Direwolf!) is.

Rickon being magically important still leaves me a bad taste, not because he can't be but because by being so is to deny Bran's special status. And the thing is, after two decades and no Rickon POV, in a meta level, it would be sloppy. But, in any way, I would not deny all Stark children are exceptional.

As for Shaggydog having green eyes, it is very unusual indeed, but in any case it would make Shaggydog marked by the Gods, not Rickon. Aggravated my the fact, unlike Arya, Brandon and Jon's relationship, where wolf and warg have parts of one on the other, Rickon doesn't seem to share with Shaggydog but is in fact overwhelmed by his wolf ferociousness.

[shizett]

5 minutes ago, Lord Ravenstark said:

Aggravated my the fact, unlike Arya, Brandon and Jon's relationship, where wolf and warg have parts of one on the other, Rickon doesn't seem to share with Shaggydog but is in fact overwhelmed by his wolf ferociousness

Wouldn't that would be a sign though? If he is chosen by the Gods, his direwolf would be his tutor.

But I agree with the first part of your post too, if it becomes clear that Rickon was the correct one after all this time, it is a bit anticlimactic so say the least.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Wouldn't that would be a sign though? If he is chosen by the Gods, his direwolf would be his tutor.

But I agree with the first part of your post too, if it becomes clear that Rickon was the correct one after all this time, it is a bit anticlimactic so say the least.

Not a sign from the gods but a sign he is either weak minded or a child, as he is letting the wolf take over. Compared to his siblings, he is too young and is not developing a proper bond, like Bran shows (Bran and Summer form a synergy, it is literally a wolf-raven companionship, a winged wolf), or Arya (can't comprehend but accept it) or Jon (knows what it is, but still try to be above Ghost. Jon overcomes Ghost almost every time). Robb didn't comprehend and didn't accept it. Or Sansa, whose actions led to the premature demise of her wolf (before that, it seemed that Sansa was the opposite of Rickon, while Rickon is slowly becoming Shaggydog, Lady became Sansa. Robb became a beast tamer for GW. Jon, Arya and Bran bonded to their wolves in order to became one, with varied degree of success (and progress).

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Lord Ravenstark said:

Crow, could you share with us any insight about Scots mythology, that would fit our little Starks?

Well the seventh son of a seventh son having the sight I know of from Scots mythology. 

Back again... beyond that specific tradition, I think that what always comes over in mythology and folk tales is that they always centre around younger sons. I don't think that there's any magical or at least supernatural reason for this but simply that the eldest son and heir is the one who inherits; the younger son is underdog who must seek his own fortune whether in Faerie or anywhere else.

The question we need to ask is whether or not GRRM is following this tradition and whether what need to be done will be accomplished by the first-born or at least the rightful heir or whether the younger one will triumph as he usually does in folklore.

In suspecting that identifying Jon Snow as the rightful heir to the Iron Throne is a red herring, you can probably see where I'm coming from