Heresy 182

[Black Crow]

On 2/16/2016 at 5:07 PM, Matthew. said:

With that in mind, I continue to wonder whether or not the true "crisis" that must be solved is the broken seasons, and the impending long winter; by this point, humanity seems to have gotten pretty good at surviving these long winters, but if another catastrophe on the length and scale of the original Long Night arrives, it's difficult to imagine Westeros surviving in its current state, even if the Others weren't invading. Given that the last Long Night was global, with the Others seemingly being limited to Westeros, are they the cause of the broken seasons, such that slaying them will resolve everything, or are they just taking advantage of favorable conditions?

Returning to this one I'm mindful how much of the story thus far has been one of unintended consequences. If we then consider GRRM's assertion that the dodgy seasons are down to magic rather than astrophysics I'm then inclined to the view that the Children invoked the original Long Night, just as they invoked the Hammer of the Waters, [or even that the Long Night was an unintended consequence of the forces unleashed to bring down the Hammer] and that the coming Long Night isn't the result of a fresh witches brew, but rather down to the ongoing instability resulting from rocking the boat too hard first time around.

That said, whilst I don't therefore think that anyone is controlling or inducing the present weather, it may have been to a degree predictable to those who study such things and some may be trying to take advantage; hence Qorhin Halfhand's warning of the Old Powers wakening and Mel's seeking out Azor Ahai and everything else that's going on.

Its not necessarily a question of all hands to the pump and I remain deeply sceptical that any altruism is involved in drawing Bran into the Heart of Darkness, but I do agree that ultimately there is a boil which needs to be lanced.

[TheMiddleHero]

On 2/17/2016 at 2:26 AM, e1kabong said:

Could be either, really. Double that possibility if Jon also has the same timelessness when warging/dreaming. Ultimately, I think we can assume it's future Bran, as he's fully adopted the darkness as his home. When we see him in the present, he's sort of still getting used to it and training. The Bran that talks to Jon seems a lot more comfortable than a novice. Of course, it's possible with the lack of concrete time between POV chapters, Bran's POV may not have caught up, temporally speaking, to Jon's story. So, it could be present Bran at the time of the vision, but future Bran since it's further into Bran's POV than we've progressed.

tl:dr? I have no real clue. 

Not too long at all. Agree on much of it. Yet still unsure myself.

[TheMiddleHero]

On 2/17/2016 at 2:07 PM, e1kabong said:

While I like the "Bran is a timelord" theory...in theory, I really hope it's not true. Nothing lowers the stakes and creates terrible plot holes faster than someone with access to intervention-based time travel. If the book ends like Donnie Darko, I'll be incredibly upset.

And that could absolutely be a possible resolution to the plot. Think about how many of the main plots in the books go away if Bran died in the fall. Dead Bran means no assassin, which means no trace back to Lannister treachery. Although they still have Lyssa's letter, it's clear she's nuts and one piece of evidence could be easily discarded as ravings. Thus, no open hostilities with the Lannisters, most likely. No suspicion of the Lannisters means that Ned probably wouldn't dig deep to discover Cersei's treason. Thus, Ned remains loyal to the incest all-star team and is probably dismissed as hand once Joffrey takes power. It's also possible that Bran's death may have stopped Ned from accepting the role as Hand in the first place, though this is purely speculation. EIther way, the Starks remain in Winterfell. 

I would probably burn all my books if that turns out to be the resolution, but I can't pretend that it isn't a possibility. 

I do find the Bran as "Timelord" interesting in some ways if done well.Any threads on it? Can't say I agree, I feel like time is going to be Bran's prison. He is going to have so much time and places and animals to lose himself in that if he does anything at all useful it is going to be by accident. Almost how he seems to accidentally run into Ghost(Jon) and show him direction. Yet there are many things/times/places to see and the "trees call to him," as BR likes to put it.

[Black Crow]

I can't say that I can recall any threads on Bran as a timelord, though I really wouldn't be surprised. There used to be a widespread belief that Bran has been brought to the cave so that the kindly elves can teach him how to defeat the Others and/or warg dragons to do it, but happily there seems to be a more realistic [if varied] approach.

As I've said though I'm inclined to allow him to see the fullness of time but wary of allowing him to intervene in god-like fashion. I'd tend to see him more like Maester Aemon; condemned to watch but powerless to prevent. That's not to say that he can't intervene  but I don't see that intervention being what saves the day

Interestingly Entertainment Weekly has a still of him riding a horse - not a flashback as its the grown up actor

[Mother of Dragons]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I can't say that I can recall any threads on Bran as a timelord, though I really wouldn't be surprised. There used to be a widespread belief that Bran has been brought to the cave so that the kindly elves can teach him how to defeat the Others and/or warg dragons to do it, but happily there seems to be a more realistic [if varied] approach.

As I've said though I'm inclined to allow him to see the fullness of time but wary of allowing him to intervene in god-like fashion. I'd tend to see him more like Maester Aemon; condemned to watch but powerless to prevent. That's not to say that he can't intervene  but I don't see that intervention being what saves the day

 

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 The thing about the ET cover- I'll try and be vague since I think you spoiler tagged it? Is it spoilerish? Just in case...

I don't think it necessarily means he can walk or ride again- Voice pointed out that they seemed to have forgotten his saddle, but that it's probably just a vision. There are stills too, of him appearing to be standing with possibly Bloodraven- but he's already been told he will never walk again.

 

I'm guessing Bran will be spending a lot more time in that cave in the next book(s), because we kind of need his weirnet visions to plug up some holes in the past, no?

I mean the precedent was already kind of set up when he goes and sees Ned praying about hoping they will grow as brothers- assuming he means Jon/Robb, though I've wondered if it was Theon before, too.

Also, recall that Arya heard Ned whispering to her in the trees in Clash, right? When she was stuck in Harrenhal? So it gives GRRM some leeway to explain some of the storyline by means of tree visions. For example, mayhaps Howland won't be a POV, but he may be seen by Bran (I'm hoping) in the next installment. Especially if the Jojen paste theory is true- then it would kind of be like Bran would have a creepy connection with the Reeds and maybe start seeing Howland through Jojen's eyes. But my imagination might be going a little too far now...

[WhitewolfStark]

41 minutes ago, Mother of Dragons said:

 The thing about the ET cover- I'll try and be vague since I think you spoiler tagged it? Is it spoilerish? Just in case...

 

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I'm guessing Bran will be spending a lot more time in that cave in the next book(s), because we kind of need his weirnet visions to plug up some holes in the past, no?

I mean the precedent was already kind of set up when he goes and sees Ned praying about hoping they will grow as brothers- assuming he means Jon/Robb, though I've wondered if it was Theon before, too.

Also, recall that Arya heard Ned whispering to her in the trees in Clash, right? When she was stuck in Harrenhal? So it gives GRRM some leeway to explain some of the storyline by means of tree visions. For example, mayhaps Howland won't be a POV, but he may be seen by Bran (I'm hoping) in the next installment. Especially if the Jojen paste theory is true- then it would kind of be like Bran would have a creepy connection with the Reeds and maybe start seeing Howland through Jojen's eyes. But my imagination might be going a little too far now...

 

I still say that that EW pic...

 

Spoiler

is of Bran in real life, because of that fur cloak and the snow on the trees. After all, if he's just in the vision--why would he be cold? I'm supported by seeing his standing in the other vision pic where he lacks that same fur cloak (so it isn't just a costume piece for him to have on him). Personally I think though, that we get a season of him under the tree, with him not leaving until the end IMO.

 

I disagree, but hey, you expected that, didn't ya?

[Mother of Dragons]

6 minutes ago, WhitewolfStark said:

 

I still say that that EW pic...

 

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is of Bran in real life, because of that fur cloak and the snow on the trees. After all, if he's just in the vision--why would he be cold? I'm supported by seeing his standing in the other vision pic where he lacks that same fur cloak (so it isn't just a costume piece for him to have on him). Personally I think though, that we get a season of him under the tree, with him not leaving until the end IMO.

 

I disagree, but hey, you expected that, didn't ya?

 

Lol! You thought of my costume counter argument before I could use it! Checkmate...

 

ETA: unless different seasons maybe? But I can't see the story going that fast. Yeah, I think he'll be under the heart tree for awhile, as well.

[Black Crow]

I'm with Whitewolf on this one.

There is, clearly, going to be some clever stuff going on with Bloodraven in the cave, but ultimately I do believe that Bran will leave. There has to be a reason for Coldhands' reference to the sinkhole entrance. All he needed to say was "this is the only way in". Instead he referred to there being a back door which will presumably turn out to be unguarded.

The question then becomes not whether he will leave the cave, but rather when and why. Is he to be sent out into the world to spread the word - or is he going to escape from the three-fingered tree-huggers before he gets hard-wired into the roots?

[e1kabong]

All this talk about Bran's condition and possibly being outside the cave: I have to point out that the inciting mummer's images also show Bran standing with Bloodraven outside. Now, unless BRs condition is far less permanent than we are led to believe (I mean, he has tree roots growing THROUGH him), it seems to be a nail in the coffin for the escape theory. I think what we'll get is Bloodraven guiding Bran through using the sight. I highly doubt that he's interacting with the other players directly. I get more of a "Ghost of Christmas Past" vibe with it. 

As for the need for winter gear: I would posit that this could be some sort of mental projection of the self. When you picture yourself standing outside in winter, you commonly have winter gear on, no? Of course, the clothes aren't needed if its all a vision, but it helps ground your self-image in reality.

[Melifeather]

28 minutes ago, e1kabong said:

All this talk about Bran's condition and possibly being outside the cave: I have to point out that the inciting mummer's images also show Bran standing with Bloodraven outside. Now, unless BRs condition is far less permanent than we are led to believe (I mean, he has tree roots growing THROUGH him), it seems to be a nail in the coffin for the escape theory. I think what we'll get is Bloodraven guiding Bran through using the sight. I highly doubt that he's interacting with the other players directly. I get more of a "Ghost of Christmas Past" vibe with it. 

As for the need for winter gear: I would posit that this could be some sort of mental projection of the self. When you picture yourself standing outside in winter, you commonly have winter gear on, no? Of course, the clothes aren't needed if its all a vision, but it helps ground your self-image in reality.

I agree with the projection of self. I'm thinking that if we see Bran and Bloodraven outside the cave and talking, then this is actually a mental projection putting themselves into a situation.

Opening the third eye is a type of mind control. Sure the connection has to be there between the skinchanger and host, but the skinchanger must learn to control the host, and this is where consciously opening the third eyes comes in. Jojen tried explaining as much to Bran. He told him that part of himself was in Summer and Summer was in him. This connection facilitates the mind control, which is more apparent when Bran controls Hodor.

Showing Bran and Bloodraven outside the cave helps the viewing audience understand what is happening.

[Black Crow]

Good points all and an especial caveat as to these images coming from the divergent mummers' version. Nevertheless I remain persuaded that having had our attention drawn by GRRM to the existence of that back door, someone not a million miles away from one Brandon Stark of this parish is going to end up using it.

[Black Crow]

As things have gone a little quiet, this might be an appropriate moment to say that as most of our discussion these days centres around what happens next, I'm of a mind to let Heresy 182 run its course here and then open Heresy 183 on the Winds of Winter page - unless anybody has any objections or better ideas

 

[Lord Ravenstark]

Since no one is suggesting anything, lets spitball.

Another one about my favorite character, Mr. Rivers.

So, Bran chapters are heavily hinted to contain cannibalism. What if Bran is eating Bloodraven? What if it is a tribal ritualistic way to pass down the full potential of a greenseer? Maybe the weirwood paste is actually weirwood paste… from the weirwood Bloodraven came to be.

Maybe the wolf got its wings by consuming the dragon.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Lord Ravenstark said:

 

Since no one is suggesting anything, lets spitball.

Another one about my favorite character, Mr. Rivers.

So, Bran chapters are heavily hinted to contain cannibalism. What if Bran is eating Bloodraven? What if it is a tribal ritualistic way to pass down the full potential of a greenseer? Maybe the weirwood paste is actually weirwood paste… from the weirwood Bloodraven came to be.

Maybe the wolf got its wings by consuming the dragon.

I think that up to a point that's probably true, but that it aint so specific in that both here and in similar stuff by GRRM the emphasis is on a communal if not a hive mind, and that if there is anything of Bloodraven in the paste it is simply because he has already been absorbed into it.

I don't subscribe to the Jojen paste theory per se and think that the weirwood paste is indeed weirwood paste, since the whole point of it is to bring Bran into communion with the weirwood. However, given the heavy emphasis on blood magic throughout the books I wouldn't be in the least surprised to learn that a bowl of weirwood paste is just a bowl of weirwood paste, and needs the addition of the appropriate blood to activate it - ie; a singer's blood is necessary to bring a singer into communion with the trees, while human blood is needed to turn a human greenseer.

[Black Crow]

Otherwise yes, I think there are definite hints of a waste not want not policy down in the cave. Gendel's children are hungry.

[e1kabong]

20 hours ago, Lord Ravenstark said:

 

Since no one is suggesting anything, lets spitball.

Another one about my favorite character, Mr. Rivers.

So, Bran chapters are heavily hinted to contain cannibalism. What if Bran is eating Bloodraven? What if it is a tribal ritualistic way to pass down the full potential of a greenseer? Maybe the weirwood paste is actually weirwood paste… from the weirwood Bloodraven came to be.

Maybe the wolf got its wings by consuming the dragon.

The cannibalism undertones goes a long way towards my comparison between Bloodraven and the literary Dracula. If we follow that idea, I think Bran is possibly in trouble of getting "devoured", not the other way around. Bloodraven may leave him to be consumed by the others (not Others, but just the Children who are there). At which point, Bran has to make a daring escape through unexpected routes (back door to the cave, anyone?). 

[e1kabong]

Saw on the news today: during an interview GRRM confirmed that there's going to be a major twist regarding a plot character from the books who has been killed off in the mummer's version.

Mance Rayder = Arthur Dayne confirmed--well, not really, but I can continue to keep hope alive. 

[Black Crow]

Don't know about Arthur Dayne - that's not disagreeing I just don't know - but I do agree that its most likely something involving Mance Rayder. I've seen speculation that the character in question might be Baristan, but Mance Rayder would make more sense given that he's last seen up to no good in Winterfell.

[Matthew.]

Given the context of the interview, I actually agree with those that think Barristan is a good candidate for the twist. The twist in question is something that Martin has only recently decided to include, whereas I think whatever unfinished business there is with Mance's interest in the Winterfell crypts is something that Martin was already planning during ADWD; similarly, I think the other major plot character that's dead in the show but alive in the books, Stannis, is probably locked into a more long term plan.

Barristan, on the other hand, is tied to what has clearly been the biggest source of trouble for Martin, as well as the storyline that has undergone the most revisions and rewrites: Dany's arc. Even the choice to make Barristan a POV character was something that came about relatively late in the process of aDwD, so I wouldn't be surprised if his plans for Barristan, and the battle of Meereen, has continuously evolved during the writing process.

[Black Crow]

Yeah, on balance I think that you may well be right, but that in turn opens the question as to just how major the twist is going to be in terms of the overall story?