Heresy 182

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, shizett said:

I actually have a question about this and would like to hear your ideas.

I think it is said early in the story that greenseers were a subgroup of CotF and were very powerful. Then we have BR and Bran who are supposed to be Human greenseers. Either Leaf or BR tell Bran that it is his blood that makes him a greenseer. Based on the story we see that green sight seems to be related to some traumatic experience in the past. Is the traumatic experience something that triggers it or actually creates it? As some form of sacrifice? I am not sure if you have already discussed it before, but it might have some bearing on Bran's future.

The reason I am asking is that BR also makes it sound like  being a warg is something that happens and is unlikely. It seems from the story that it is not the case as all Stark kids are wargs. So, warging might be related to certain bloodlines. So, could it be that greenseers are made rather than born? both in humans and Cotf.

I'm already beaten to the punch here, but I think the situation is one where their gifts are inherited by blood, but had to be reawakened by some catalyst--in this case the arrival of the direwolves works as well as any other explanation. Though, I am mindful of the fact that the reawakening of magic seems to be a general trend, so depending on what's going on, the direwolves may have been sent because whoever/whatever sent them knew that the Stark gifts were already reawakening, and the wolves would be needed.

As to how such magic was ever acquired in the first place, this may be one of those things that GRRM will never reveal (or has no answer to), as the magic is meant to be mysterious, with GRRM as much as saying that there's no D&D-esque "system" to his magic. Nonetheless, I do have a theory: I believe that it's not a coincidence that the Winterfell heart tree has a "long, solemn face" - descriptors that are frequently used to refer to Stark features - and that each heart tree was consecrated with a blood sacrifice, and this was the path by which certain bloodlines acquired a bond to the magic of the Old Gods. Thus, I suspect that the long, solemn face of the Winterfell heart tree belongs to some distant Stark ancestor.

[Lady Dyanna]

On 3/1/2016 at 5:28 AM, shizett said:

Oh, even more interesting!

I was thinking about the horn of winter and break down of the wall too. I was thinking if it is related to the story of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, in the sense that the wall is the mirror shield in the story. Unlike the show, the wall in the book is very glass like (it is referred to as crystal). I think it could act as a mirror, especially in a night setting with dragon fire on one side and complete darkness on the other side. As for "a dragon seeing only itself in the mirror", Jon sees his own reflection in the wall (assuming Jon is a Dragon). We also see the mirror quality in how WW reflect things around them as per aGOT prologue.

Given than almost all fractions we have seen seem to be able to pass through the wall (even Targs per Bloodraven), I thought maybe it is built specifically against dragons. So, we will see the Mirror Wall when the dragons come to the rescue to distract them, and then have the complete crash down of the wall when WW attack from behind and slaughter the Dragons (or some of them). This would actually make the story more Westerosi too, since Dragons won't play a big role in the endgame.

Having the Horn of Winter waking the old KoW would go very nicely with this. What do you think?

I agree that there seems to be some sort of link between the Mirror Shield and the Wall. The Wall would most certainly block vision of the enemy beyond. I'm pretty sure that it was somewhere here on Heresy that I've seen the impact of the Wall on Dragons before. It doesn't seem like it would be a good one. First, I doubt that dragons handle cold very well. Second, as high as the Wall is, would the dragons have difficulty going over it? I, myself haven't thought much about that aspect, but it certainly sounds possible.

[Lady Dyanna]

On 3/1/2016 at 2:03 PM, Black Crow said:

Aside from that being given as the reason for the swords I'm also mindful of that bit about sometimes people go out, and when they come back they are no longer men but have those starry blue eyes. This seems to be a direct take on Draugr or vengeful dead coming home and I don't see it so much as the dead Starks lying in wait but rather being held down until the bones are crumbled to dust and no longerpresent a threat to the living.

Yes, but again, if it's just to stop the bones from being animated, etc. Why not burn them? 

On 3/1/2016 at 2:03 PM, Black Crow said:

e don't yet know how the resurrection business works, but raising wights en masse clearly needs something more than the personal touch and perhaps there's some of that magic in the cold Winterfell crypts - especially if Redriver's theory about the winter storm emanating from there is correct.

From the prologue it almost appears to be the cold winds that raises the wights. I do agree that there is probably something quite magical about Winterfell, but again, why bother keeping the bones intact at all if there is no further possible use for them. Seems like an awfully big risk to take when they could just burn or otherwise destroy them.

[voldemormont]

Was Bloodraven recruited by Bran via heartree? BR says you can't communicate through the tree, but it seems Bran got a responds from his Father & Theon. One can essentially "time travel" in this sense 

[Lady Dyanna]

3 hours ago, shizett said:

I actually have a question about this and would like to hear your ideas.

I think it is said early in the story that greenseers were a subgroup of CotF and were very powerful. Then we have BR and Bran who are supposed to be Human greenseers. Either Leaf or BR tell Bran that it is his blood that makes him a greenseer. Based on the story we see that green sight seems to be related to some traumatic experience in the past. Is the traumatic experience something that triggers it or actually creates it? As some form of sacrifice? I am not sure if you have already discussed it before, but it might have some bearing on Bran's future.

The reason I am asking is that BR also makes it sound like  being a warg is something that happens and is unlikely. It seems from the story that it is not the case as all Stark kids are wargs. So, warging might be related to certain bloodlines. So, could it be that greenseers are made rather than born? both in humans and Cotf.

Up until very recently, I was completely on board with the idea that warging and skinchanging were blood or genetic traits, but needed a catalyst, aka the arrival of the direwolves in the case of the Starks.  Now I'm not entirely sure. I still think that there is a genetic trait, but just wonder if it is recessive and Catelyn provided that extra needed trait to make the current generation of Starks all Wargs. Look at Sweet Robin, he also seems to show many of the same characteristics. It could just be that a certain matrilineal trait is necessary.

I would imagine that the same thing would be true for greenseeing.  @Evolett has some really interesting ideas on how a greenseer can be made from a warg, a lot of it based upon the Varamyr prologue. Basically the idea is that committing each of the abominations described by Varamyr, eating human flesh, having sexual relations in the skin of his wolf and skinchanging a human actually expand the powers of a warg. If you're interested, this is the link to her blog

[Sly Wren]

On March 1, 2016 at 1:54 AM, Lady Dyanna said:

There's a bit of a dichotomy in how the ww are symbolized. They are symbolized as being similar to organizations such as the Kingsguard whose primary duty is to protect. In addition you have Symeon Star Eyes who with his sapphire blue eyes appears similar to the ww and wights, but he is known to be honorable. Yet the ww have been passed down in tradition to be antagonistic.  When you look at the representative institutions, like the Kingsguard and Nights Watch their primary purpose is protection and yet there can be seen to be a divide among the members of these groups. Some are good and true, others not so much.

I had not thought of this--but I'm liking this very much.

And Symeon Star Eyes is described as a savior--someone Cersei (I think) taunts Sansa about potentially coming to save her.

@shizett

: hmm, interesting. But in this scenario, we are only seeing a fraction of WW in action yet. The WF WW are not released yet, am I getting it right?[/quote]

On March 1, 2016 at 3:16 AM, Lady Dyanna said:

That's my understanding of the idea behind it. The WF ww are waiting to be called into action. It kind of makes me wonder about "the horn to wake the sleepers" from the NW vows. I know that@Sly Wren has speculated that the horn might wake the dead Starks, but this puts a whole new spin on it.

I had not thought of the Starks in the tombs as being like Others--but that would fit with some of the imagery and enigma of Coldhands. 

Are you suggesting that Starks have the capacity to remain "sentient?" I know Heresy's discussed whether or not greenseers can remain sentient when wighted. But would the idea be that Starks can remain "Stark" when "Othered?" And if the Others are run by the Children--would the idea be that the "Horn" might wake the "Other" Starks to themselves? To their oath?

On March 1, 2016 at 3:28 AM, shizett said:

I was thinking about the horn of winter and break down of the wall too. I was thinking if it is related to the story of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, in the sense that the wall is the mirror shield in the story. Unlike the show, the wall in the book is very glass like (it is referred to as crystal). I think it could act as a mirror, especially in a night setting with dragon fire on one side and complete darkness on the other side. As for "a dragon seeing only itself in the mirror", Jon sees his own reflection in the wall (assuming Jon is a Dragon). We also see the mirror quality in how WW reflect things around them as per aGOT prologue.

Okay--I'm loving this. Fits (potentially) with @PrettyPig's Marvelous Mystery Black Armor argument--which includes speculation about swords and shields (if I'm remembering right). And given that Serwyn is mentioned in all but one of the novels (as well as a novella and why World Book), and mentioned as a potential savior for Sansa (tauntingly by Cersei)--seems like we're supposed to pay attention. 

Though I may be prejudiced since I keep thinking the Wall is the shield and Dawn is the sword.

On March 1, 2016 at 3:28 AM, shizett said:

Given than almost all fractions we have seen seem to be able to pass through the wall (even Targs per Bloodraven), I thought maybe it is built specifically against dragons. So, we will see the Mirror Wall when the dragons come to the rescue to distract them, and then have the complete crash down of the wall when WW attack from behind and slaughter the Dragons (or some of them). This would actually make the story more Westerosi too, since Dragons won't play a big role in the endgame.

Possible. Though I've been wondering for a while if "dragon" as monster might have replaced "Other" as monster in some stories. Or it's a combo--like the Arryns' story of the Winged Knight--coopted by an Andal family for their own hero.

Same with Serwyn. He's supposed to have slain the dragon Urrax--but when another knight tried it during the Dance of the Dragons, it didn't work. Which makes it sound like something else might be up re: the mirror and the monsters. So--did the story get changed over time to fit a different monster???

[Sly Wren]

3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Yes, but again, if it's just to stop the bones from being animated, etc. Why not burn them? 

 

@Black Crow: I see the point re: warding the vengeful dead. But if the vengeful dead are being used for vengeance against others? Then they'd be, well, useful.

And if they are just waiting for the bones to rot, why not burn them as @Lady Dyanna says? Why maintain such elaborate crypts? Easier to just have a statue garden in the godswood or something. And it seems odd that the Starks would never, in all the centuries, have known about the wildling custom of burning the dead. Just seems like the crypts themselves are a sign that something is different about these dead.

Plus, Jon "must go down" into the crypts in that recurring dream. And after he's gotten to the Wall, he sees what the result of the dream is when he goes farther than before--the tombs open and the kings stumble out. Sounds like Jon's going wake the horrible Stark dead. . . 

[Lady Dyanna]

12 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

And Symeon Star Eyes is described as a savior--someone Cersei (I think) taunts Sansa about potentially coming to save her.

Think about the imagery surrounding Symeon Star Eyes as well.  What does he see? Two hellhounds fighting.  And what do the hellhounds make you think about? Well, direwolves, I would think. Where do we see two direwolves fighting? Shaggy Dog and Summer fight in the Winterfell Crypts. Interesting connection, is it not?

 

17 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Are you suggesting that Starks have the capacity to remain "sentient?" I know Heresy's discussed whether or not greenseers can remain sentient when wighted. But would the idea be that Starks can remain "Stark" when "Othered?" And if the Others are run by the Children--would the idea be that the "Horn" might wake the "Other" Starks to themselves? To their oath?

That might well be one of their genetic traits. The ability to have their spirits pulled from their bones in order to create a sentient ww. And what better tool would there be to fight a more vengeful type? The question would then become, does the horn complete the process magically or is there more to it? And also, is this why we need Bran, as a Stark Greenseer? Is he able to call back the dead (consider Leaf's warning) or due to genetics would he have ultimate control over either the ww or wights?

[Sly Wren]

15 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Think about the imagery surrounding Symeon Star Eyes as well.  What does he see? Two hellhounds fighting.  And what do the hellhounds make you think about? Well, direwolves, I would think. Where do we see two direwolves fighting? Shaggy Dog and Summer fight in the Winterfell Crypts. Interesting connection, is it not?

Symeon saw them in the Nightfort--perhaps down the well? Hmm. . . does this tie to @Voice's warg-blocking theory? 

And Summer and Shaggy fight to help Jon with the wildlings. 

But it also reminds me of the Warg King mention in the World Book--the fact that he had to be fought. So, what did Symeon do with the "hell-hounds?"

Also, if they were direwolves--what were they fighting over?
Did Symeon witness the taking down of the Night's King by the Stark in Winterfell??

15 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

The question would then become, does the horn complete the process magically or is there more to it?

Don't know--if they are "waiting," the horn (or sword ) may just be a catalyst. Like the third eye opening needs some kind of catalyst???? Completely speculative, of course.

15 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

That might well be one of their genetic traits. The ability to have their spirits pulled from their bones in order to create a sentient ww. And what better tool would there be to fight a more vengeful type?

Am also wondering if this is a curse laid on them--a penance. Apparently, all can be wighted (so far). But the sentience--that's very different in Coldhands. Coaster's described as having a curse--I'm assuming the Starks might, too. The cold hell reserved for Starks. . . 

Hmmm. . . So, could they sentient even in the crypts? While they wait? That's an unpleasant thought.

15 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

And also, is this why we need Bran, as a Stark Greenseer? Is he able to call back the dead (consider Leaf's warning) or due to genetics would he have ultimate control over either the ww or wights?

An excellent question. Would make some sense--why warn if it's harmless? 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

 

@Black Crow: I see the point re: warding the vengeful dead. But if the vengeful dead are being used for vengeance against others? Then they'd be, well, useful.

And if they are just waiting for the bones to rot, why not burn them as @Lady Dyanna says? Why maintain such elaborate crypts? Easier to just have a statue garden in the godswood or something. And it seems odd that the Starks would never, in all the centuries, have known about the wildling custom of burning the dead. Just seems like the crypts themselves are a sign that something is different about these dead.

Plus, Jon "must go down" into the crypts in that recurring dream. And after he's gotten to the Wall, he sees what the result of the dream is when he goes farther than before--the tombs open and the kings stumble out. Sounds like Jon's going wake the horrible Stark dead. . . 

Its certainly possible that we may see the dead rising, but I'm rather of the view that rather than tucking Uncle Albert away and keeping him handy in case he's needed one day, its simply the Starks' way of dealing with their dead, holding them down with cold iron rather than giving them to the Fire. Same principle, different custom especially if they associate themselves with Ice rather than Fire.

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Nonetheless, I do have a theory: I believe that it's not a coincidence that the Winterfell heart tree has a "long, solemn face" - descriptors that are frequently used to refer to Stark features - and that each heart tree was consecrated with a blood sacrifice, and this was the path by which certain bloodlines acquired a bond to the magic of the Old Gods. Thus, I suspect that the long, solemn face of the Winterfell heart tree belongs to some distant Stark ancestor.

Indeed and in support of this we have two other bits of fairly solid evidence: there's the weirwood grove north of the Wall where Jon finds that curious variety of faces; some serene, some smiling but others screaming, which suggests they may not necessarily have been carved as everyone in-story assumes, but reflect the faces of those sacrificed to them, and then we have that tree discovered by mesdames Mormont and Greyjoy with the three-fingered tree-hugger's face, which clearly tells us that the other faces are human. 

[TheButcherCrow]

4 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

And also, is this why we need Bran, as a Stark Greenseer? Is he able to call back the dead (consider Leaf's warning) or due to genetics would he have ultimate control over either the ww or wights?

I don't think the question is whether Bran will control the wights but rather what will Bran be asked/urged to do with the wights when he has that control.  My belief is that Bran will be urged to release the wolf into the woods, putting him on a direct collision course with Jon (who I now utterly believe to be Robert Baratheon's bastard).  Ultimately I'm not sure how it will play out as I have a feeling that Bran may be the one who eventually "saves the day" as it were but I suspect he will need to screw BR and the CotF to do so, perhaps even requiring Jon to kill him to free his spirit and give him the power required to end this once and for all, to smash the wheel. 

 

[Voice]

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Symeon saw them in the Nightfort--perhaps down the well? Hmm. . . does this tie to @Voice's warg-blocking theory? 

Hey now, don't be shy. If you're gonna bump it, bump my theory by its full name, A Song of Vaginal Warg-Blocking.

 

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

And Summer and Shaggy fight to help Jon with the wildlings. 

But it also reminds me of the Warg King mention in the World Book--the fact that he had to be fought. So, what did Symeon do with the "hell-hounds?"

Also, if they were direwolves--what were they fighting over?
Did Symeon witness the taking down of the Night's King by the Stark in Winterfell??

Yup. With stars for eyes, he saw one direwolf fighting another. But, this could have in fact been the forbidden sacrifices NK and his cold wife were making to the Others. Dogfighting is illegal in most states, so I wouldn't be surprised if it were illegal at the Nightfort, or at least frowned upon. NK=Mike Vick? Given GRRM's fondness of football, it wouldn't surprise me.

Now, considering how large direwolves are in AGOT, imagine how large and terrible they would have been ten thousand years ago at the Nightfort -- in the hands of the Others! No wonder they were called hellhounds.

[Lord Wraith]

4 hours ago, Voice said:

Hey now, don't be shy. If you're gonna bump it, bump my theory by its full name, A Song of Vaginal Warg-Blocking.

 

Yup. With stars for eyes, he saw one direwolf fighting another. But, this could have in fact been the forbidden sacrifices NK and his cold wife were making to the Others. Dogfighting is illegal in most states, so I wouldn't be surprised if it were illegal at the Nightfort, or at least frowned upon. NK=Mike Vick? Given GRRM's fondness of football, it wouldn't surprise me.

Now, considering how large direwolves are in AGOT, imagine how large and terrible they would have been ten thousand years ago at the Nightfort -- in the hands of the Others! No wonder they were called hellhounds.

The whole direwolves fighting each other makes me think that the Night's King was a Stark. Just like the man that brought him down. Still why does Symeon have the eyes of a wight?

[TheButcherCrow]

So all the in-canon references to Symeon are in Bran chapters, no real surprise.  The story of a man who lost his sight but still became a knight would surely intrigue Bran the Broken but let's strip away the nonsense and look at the basics, first principles Clarice.  Symeon loses his sight then regains it by magical means (most likely ice magic) and he uses this boon to become a great hero, could the same happen with Bran ?  

Ok, straight off the top of my head, how about this...

Long ages ago the Starks were one of many houses vying for control of the north, they made a pact with the CotF and the children gave them the gifts of skinchanging and greensight (almost certainly through marriage).  They used these gifts to conquer and rule the un-conquerable north, this suited the CotF as it gave them a refuge and a land where the weirwoods would still be allowed to grow.  Unfortunately it also put magic in the hands of men and we went buck-fucking-wild with that shit.  A Stark got WAAAAAY too big for his boots and in an orgy of blood and ice magic made himself immortal, The Night's King.  My guess would be that he was the bastard brother of The Stark in Winterfell and that he raised an army (the original wildlings) to march on Winterfell but that he was betrayed by his own men (for the common good) and that he was defeated by his brother but, you know, immortal so, issues?  I'm guessing that the LH journeyed to the far north to seek the CotF to see if there was anyway to ward or bind the NK.  "Sure", said the children, "but we're gonna need a human in a tree and a never-ending supply of Stark blood".  Cue, "The Craster".  See the NK hadn't just made himself immortal, he had broken one of the "hinges of the world" and the door was alarmingly ajar.  The children taught the human greenseer how to fashion a body from ice and bind NK to it but the spirits of ancient Starks (currently warded with iron) were restless and they needed to be put somewhere too, enter Craster's Boys.  

 

Anything useful in that ?

[Black Crow]

I'm not convinced that Symeon ever lost his sight. I think its simply a matter of going out one day and being turned so that he came back with the eyes as blue as stars we know so well. The stars and sapphires are just a rationalisation. Eyes blue as stars or sapphires become sapphires as the story is told from generation to generation.

Bear in mind also that the blue eyes are not confined to wights, Craster's boys have them too and if memory serves me on the other side our Mel has red eyes.

[TheButcherCrow]

5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm not convinced that Symeon ever lost his sight. I think its simply a matter of going out one day and being turned so that he came back with the eyes as blue as stars we know so well. The stars and sapphires are just a rationalisation. Eyes blue as stars or sapphires become sapphires as the story is told from generation to generation

Indeed and Bran is unlikely to get the use of his legs back but in terms of general principles, in 1000 years could the people of westeros not tell the story of the broken prince who replaced his useless legs with weirwood ?

[Black Crow]

Or became a centaur

[TheButcherCrow]

22 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Or became a centaur

Please never say that on tumblr...  #Brantaur

[Black Crow]

I take your point... sounds a bit like a character from Masters of the Universe - with Bloodraven no doubt doubling as Skeletor