Heresy 182

[Evolett]

Interesting topic. I published some ideas on Symeon-Star-Eyes and how the symbolism surrounding him relates to the origin (or creation) of White Walkers last year. That essay needs a re-write but a lot of the ideas are still valid methinks, so I’ll just present a few of them here. First some background stuff to keep in your backpocket:

 

From what we know about Symeon:

• he was an honourable knight

• replaced his blind eyes with star-sapphires

• he saw two hellhounds fighting at the Nightfort

• he wielded a double-bladed staff

 

Bones remember. What do the bones remember?

 

White shadows: members of the Kingsguard, the White Walkers and Ghost are described as ‘white-shadows’. This links all three in some way. Some inferences and observations regarding this are:

• Protection. Kingsguard protect the king and members of the royal family while Ghost protects Jon.  

• Kingsguard: not all Kingsguard are honourable, but in the text, we find both honourable and dishonourable members of the being termed as ‘white shadows’. An example would be Barristan Selmy vrs. Mandon Moore.

Since all are ‘white-shadows’, the first question is where do the White Walkers fit in and secondly, could there be two factions of white walkers – an honourable and a renegade faction for instance?

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Symeon-Star-Eyes

 

Star-sapphires remind us of the blue ‘eyes’ of White Walkers and wights. Mel uses rubies for her glamours, successfully disguising Mance as Rattleshirt. She employs a large square-cut ruby in her magic, which acts as a master to the slave ruby worn by the subject. The magic causes an optical illusion which serves to disguise the subject and it also binds the subject to Mel – body and soul.

We have not seen sapphires in this context but considering that sapphires and rubies are basically the same type of stone, made of the same mineral, and that the only difference between them are the inclusions which give the gem it’s colour, I would say sapphires are a legitimate alternative for glamours and soul-binding worked via ice magic. In Symeon-Star-Eyes’ case, perhaps the star-eyes cause the illusion of seeing. Or perhaps there’s someone behind those eyes (akin to weirwoods), who allows Symeon to ‘see’. The overall impression is that like rubies, sapphires may be the key to exerting control over another person or entity. Personally, I believe this is the purpose behind the bright blue eyes of wights and white-walkers. They are controlled via their blue eyes. 

 

Symeon also sees two hellhounds fighting. We do not read of any dog or wolf-fights at the Nightfort but we do have two examples in the Crypts of Winterfell. A hellhound calls to mind Cerberus, the three-headed dog who guards the gates to Hades. Direwolves at the foot of dead Kings of Winter recall Cerberus and one could even say that the direwolves mirror the three-headed ‘hellhound’. We have three types of direwolf – green-eyed, golden-eyed and red-eyed (like the cotf, btw) – black, grey, white.

 

We have two scenes in the crypts:

• Shaggy fights Grey Wind

• Shaggy fights Summer  
  • Shaggy basically fights one of the other heads and is subdued both times.

  • Note: one faction of direwolves fights another

 

So Symeon’s hellhounds take us into the Crypts of Winterfell where the bones of the Kings of Winter and the north are interred. Someone has already asked why the Starks keep the bones of their dead, while others cremate (Targs) or drown or both (Tullys). Well, we often hear that ‘the bones remember’ so it’s probably something to do with whatever the bones remember. What do they remember? Consider this quote:

Quote

 

Summer dug up a severed arm, black and covered with hoarfrost, its fingers opening and closing as it pulled itself across the frozen snow. There was still enough meat on it to fill his empty belly, and after that was done he cracked the arm bones for the marrow. Only then did the arm remember it was dead.

 

We see the arm of a wight, severed but still very much ‘alive’. Only when Summer destroys the bone by cracking it for the marrow does the arm ‘remember’ that it really is dead. This suggests the basic essence of life, the quality of sentience, is stored within bone. I believe it is this ‘spark of life’ within the bones that is magically activated to raise the dead and transform them to the status of wights. This is also why wights are susceptible to fire – fire destroys, it consumes, it reaches deep down. It destroys the marrow thus killing off that spark of life within the bone. The same may be achieved by hacking a wight to pieces with a sword but a sword is not as effective a weapon as fire.

Further, this spark of life within the bones could be the means by which a white walker is resurrected or ‘woken from his sleep’ (Osha says the Others were sleeping but now they are awake).

 

Now, the Kings of Winter in the crypts are heavily guarded – they have iron swords said to keep their vengeful spirits from escaping; hellhound direwolves guard the tombs. The naked swords across their laps also suggest a denial of guest right. Visitors are not welcome down there – Jon Snow certainly feels he isn’t welcome after he joins the NW and starts dreaming of the crypts.

 

I’m not going to speculate on how WW may be created here, but on account of all this symbolism, my personal belief is that there are two factions of white-walkers or perhaps there is only one faction and their behaviour depends on the motives of the persons controlling them. In a nutshell, someone wanting to destroy or subjugate the planet would employ them and the wights they control to eradicate and subdue mankind, while a person who wants to ‘save the world’ will use them in another way – to lead a wight army away from mankind to a place where they can be safely destroyed.
Specifically, I think the two ‘factions’ of direwolves (Shaggy vrs Grey Wind or Summer) as well as Symeon Star-Eyes’ double bladed staff symbolise this. As an honourable knight, Symeon uses the ‘honourable’ end of the blade but as his sapphire eyes suggest, under the influence of a different person or entitly, he could turn the blade round on command and use the ‘dishonourable’ end as well.

 

The Long Night
Relating this to the events of the Long Night suggests there was a faction (probably of greenseers) who employed white walkers against man (as recalled in Old Nan’s tales). The LN eventually ended. We must ask ourselves how it was possible to overcome the renegade WW and the thousands of wights that made up their army. As far as we know, there were no dragons around at the time, at least there’s no mention of them.

I imagine two things were important to ending the threat:

• killing the white walkers who had control over the wights

• leading the wights to a place where they could be destroyed

 

Killing white walkers would have been achieved by the person wielding Lightbringer (re: Edric Shadowchaser) – I don’t believe there were that many WW, perhaps max. 13 as seen in the show or 7 as suggested by the Kingsguard reference. Their existence appears to be dependent on a limited number of suitable babies (Craster). Shadowchaser also supports the idea of hunting down shades - the white shades of the WW. 

Leading wights to a ‘safe haven’  would have been made possible by the pact between the cotf and the Last hero. This involved the sacrifice of a Stark who was raised as a WW (the Last Hero) who was then directed to take care of the wights. Alternatively, the LH was the Stark greenseer who controlled ‘honorable’ WWs to do the job.

Of course it’s probably more complex than this and the fuzzy timeline does not help but that’s the gist of it, methinks.   Jon Snow would be the third 'faction' - perhaps the one to wield the blade and to break the chains binding wights and ww to their masters. 

 

[Voice]

3 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

The whole direwolves fighting each other makes me think that the Night's King was a Stark. Just like the man that brought him down.

Of this I have no doubt. I name him the Last Hero, Bran the Builder, in this theory as he was only a man by light of day (thus I'm thinking he was more Other in nature by night only). But even without such speculation, Old Nan seems quite certain he was indeed a Stark in name:

Bran IV ASOS:

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.

 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Still why does Symeon have the eyes of a wight?

Well, I'd argue that it isn't the eyes of a wight, but the eyes of an Other. Symeon seems to have retained his own consciousness and speech, attributes the wights lack, but the Others demonstrate in the Prologue of AGOT.

As to the why of that, I'd say it was en vogue at the time. It seems sworn brothers at the Nightfort were dabbling in the blue powers quite readily under the tutelage of their 13th Hero/Lord Commander.

[TheButcherCrow]

39 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I take your point... sounds a bit like a character from Masters of the Universe - with Bloodraven no doubt doubling as Skeletor 

fml, now all I want to see is a cheesy, 80's cartoon-style remake of GoT...

[Black Crow]

21 minutes ago, Voice said:

Well, I'd argue that it isn't the eyes of a wight, but the eyes of an Other. Symeon seems to have retained his own consciousness and speech, attributes the wights lack, but the Others demonstrate in the Prologue of AGOT.

As to the why of that, I'd say it was en vogue at the time. It seems sworn brothers at the Nightfort were dabbling in the blue powers quite readily under the tutelage of their 13th Hero/Lord Commander.

While agreed per my earlier post that starry blue eyes are not peculiar to wights and that Symeon was in with the rest of the crowd at the Nightfort, I still have to cite Bran's understanding that Bob the Builder and the Last Hero were not one and the same.

[Black Crow]

43 minutes ago, Evolett said:

 

...Of course it’s probably more complex than this and the fuzzy timeline does not help but that’s the gist of it, methinks.   Jon Snow would be the third 'faction' - perhaps the one to wield the blade and to break the chains binding wights and ww to their masters. 

And a very interesting post it is too.

At this stage I'd just like to chip in a couple of points. There are real problems with the early timelines, but would suggest that's down to GRRM being careless about it early on and then justifying himself afterwards in that speech by Hoster Blackwood:

Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some masters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend.

So no, I wouldn't get too concerned about fuzzy timelines spoiling a good theory.

 

[Black Crow]

As to there being different factions of white walkers, I think its far simpler. The walkers are magically created [never born] using Craster's sons and any other "sacrifices" to serve as white rangers in opposition to the black rangers of the present Nights Watch, but like the black ones they may serve but having been unleashed are not always controlled, which is why they are more akin to the Bloody Mummers than to Unsullied.

[Matthew.]

For some totally wild speculation, I wonder if the "two hellhounds fighting at the Nightfort," rather than being a literal battle between hellhounds (or direwolves), could have been allegorical for a civil war between Starks, perhaps even the war between Brandon the Breaker and the Night's King.

I'm taking some inspiration here from Evolett's post, and the observations about Symeon as an honorable knight, as well as the comparison to the modern King's Guard as white shadows. Perhaps that's exactly what the WWs were--an unnatural "King's Guard," raised to serve the ancient Kings of Winter.

[Black Crow]

Perhaps a very apt comparison if we're looking for the fighting hell-hounds as an allegory for a Stark civil war might be the "Dance of the Dragons".

[Evolett]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to there being different factions of white walkers, I think its far simpler. The walkers are magically created [never born] using Craster's sons and any other "sacrifices" to serve as white rangers in opposition to the black rangers of the present Nights Watch, but like the black ones they may serve but having been unleashed are not always controlled, which is why they are more akin to the Bloody Mummers than to Unsullied.

I like this Unsullied / Bloody Mummer comparison. Nice. Ties into the direwolves too.

BUT in this context, unlike Grey Wind and Summer, Shaggy is the least 'controlled' of the direwolves. But we still have to ask if this is due to Shaggy or if it's more a matter of little Rickon who is a little boy with no control over his emotions. In this context, remember the scene involving Meera, Jojen, Bran and the direwolves - both Summer and Shaggy respond to Bran's anger by attacking the Reeds. Bran is incapable of controlling either of them so he urges them to climb a tree - if I recall correctly, Hodor has to chase them off. Neither Bran nor Rickon are in control of their wolves at this point. Bran has not yet learned how and the lesson drives home both the need to maintain control over the direwolves and (to us), the implication that it is the human in control, not the direwolf or by extension, the WW. 

Quote

Perhaps a very apt comparison if we're looking for the fighting hell-hounds as an allegory for a Stark civil war might be the "Dance of the Dragons".

Perfect - I agree!

[Voice of the First Men]

For some totally wild speculation, I wonder if the "two hellhounds fighting at the Nightfort," rather than being a literal battle between hellhounds (or direwolves), could have been allegorical for a civil war between Starks, perhaps even the war between Brandon the Breaker and the Night's King.

I'm taking some inspiration here from Evolett's post, and the observations about Symeon as an honorable knight, as well as the comparison to the modern King's Guard as white shadows. Perhaps that's exactly what the WWs were--an unnatural "King's Guard," raised to serve the ancient Kings of Winter.

Yup. But NK is the true King of Winter.

[Evolett]

2 hours ago, Voice of the First Men said:

Yup. But NK is the true King of Winter.

Well, regarding your theory that Bran the Builder = NK, how about this unnoticed tit-bit regarding Littlefinger and his possible role as a stand in for Bran the Builder? 
LF helps Sansa to build her Winterfell snow castle. He not only gives her tips, he shows her exactly how to weave twigs together to build bridges and support for the glass gardens of Winterfell. He also suggests she create the gargoyles by forming lumps of snow. The significance of his tips are unclear until you understand what the principle of 'weaving' means in the narrative. Also the significance of gargoyles, which in the past were placed on churches in an attempt to ward off the very evil they represent. Taking this into consideration, LF is not merely helping Sansa to get close to her while she builds her castle. He is a stand in for Bran the Builder who is said to have fortified Winterfell, the Wall etc. with magic. And he is also the person who is disregarded by the nobility and may take revenge on them in the future (in a possible parallel to the NK). As usual, it's not as simple as that but that's the gist of it :-)

[Mace Cooterian]

7 hours ago, Evolett said:

Interesting topic. I published some ideas on Symeon-Star-Eyes and how the symbolism surrounding him relates to the origin (or creation) of White Walkers last year. That essay needs a re-write but a lot of the ideas are still valid methinks, so I’ll just present a few of them here. First some background stuff to keep in your backpocket:

 

 

 

From what we know about Symeon:

 

• he was an honourable knight

   

• replaced his blind eyes with star-sapphires

   

• he saw two hellhounds fighting at the Nightfort

   

• he wielded a double-bladed staff

   

 

 

Bones remember. What do the bones remember?

 

 

White shadows: members of the Kingsguard, the White Walkers and Ghost are described as ‘white-shadows’. This links all three in some way. Some inferences and observations regarding this are:

 

• Protection. Kingsguard protect the king and members of the royal family while Ghost protects Jon.  

   

• Kingsguard: not all Kingsguard are honourable, but in the text, we find both honourable and dishonourable members of the being termed as ‘white shadows’. An example would be Barristan Selmy vrs. Mandon Moore.

   

Since all are ‘white-shadows’, the first question is where do the White Walkers fit in and secondly, could there be two factions of white walkers – an honourable and a renegade faction for instance?

 

 

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Symeon-Star-Eyes

 

 

 

Star-sapphires remind us of the blue ‘eyes’ of White Walkers and wights. Mel uses rubies for her glamours, successfully disguising Mance as Rattleshirt. She employs a large square-cut ruby in her magic, which acts as a master to the slave ruby worn by the subject. The magic causes an optical illusion which serves to disguise the subject and it also binds the subject to Mel – body and soul.

 

We have not seen sapphires in this context but considering that sapphires and rubies are basically the same type of stone, made of the same mineral, and that the only difference between them are the inclusions which give the gem it’s colour, I would say sapphires are a legitimate alternative for glamours and soul-binding worked via ice magic. In Symeon-Star-Eyes’ case, perhaps the star-eyes cause the illusion of seeing. Or perhaps there’s someone behind those eyes (akin to weirwoods), who allows Symeon to ‘see’. The overall impression is that like rubies, sapphires may be the key to exerting control over another person or entity. Personally, I believe this is the purpose behind the bright blue eyes of wights and white-walkers. They are controlled via their blue eyes. 

 

 

 

Symeon also sees two hellhounds fighting. We do not read of any dog or wolf-fights at the Nightfort but we do have two examples in the Crypts of Winterfell. A hellhound calls to mind Cerberus, the three-headed dog who guards the gates to Hades. Direwolves at the foot of dead Kings of Winter recall Cerberus and one could even say that the direwolves mirror the three-headed ‘hellhound’. We have three types of direwolf – green-eyed, golden-eyed and red-eyed (like the cotf, btw) – black, grey, white.

 

 

 

We have two scenes in the crypts:

 

• Shaggy fights Grey Wind

   

• Shaggy fights Summer  

   

  • Shaggy basically fights one of the other heads and is subdued both times.

     

  • Note: one faction of direwolves fights another

     

 

 

So Symeon’s hellhounds take us into the Crypts of Winterfell where the bones of the Kings of Winter and the north are interred. Someone has already asked why the Starks keep the bones of their dead, while others cremate (Targs) or drown or both (Tullys). Well, we often hear that ‘the bones remember’ so it’s probably something to do with whatever the bones remember. What do they remember? Consider this quote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

We see the arm of a wight, severed but still very much ‘alive’. Only when Summer destroys the bone by cracking it for the marrow does the arm ‘remember’ that it really is dead. This suggests the basic essence of life, the quality of sentience, is stored within bone. I believe it is this ‘spark of life’ within the bones that is magically activated to raise the dead and transform them to the status of wights. This is also why wights are susceptible to fire – fire destroys, it consumes, it reaches deep down. It destroys the marrow thus killing off that spark of life within the bone. The same may be achieved by hacking a wight to pieces with a sword but a sword is not as effective a weapon as fire.

 

Further, this spark of life within the bones could be the means by which a white walker is resurrected or ‘woken from his sleep’ (Osha says the Others were sleeping but now they are awake).

 

 

 

Now, the Kings of Winter in the crypts are heavily guarded – they have iron swords said to keep their vengeful spirits from escaping; hellhound direwolves guard the tombs. The naked swords across their laps also suggest a denial of guest right. Visitors are not welcome down there – Jon Snow certainly feels he isn’t welcome after he joins the NW and starts dreaming of the crypts.

 

 

 

I’m not going to speculate on how WW may be created here, but on account of all this symbolism, my personal belief is that there are two factions of white-walkers or perhaps there is only one faction and their behaviour depends on the motives of the persons controlling them. In a nutshell, someone wanting to destroy or subjugate the planet would employ them and the wights they control to eradicate and subdue mankind, while a person who wants to ‘save the world’ will use them in another way – to lead a wight army away from mankind to a place where they can be safely destroyed.
Specifically, I think the two ‘factions’ of direwolves (Shaggy vrs Grey Wind or Summer) as well as Symeon Star-Eyes’ double bladed staff symbolise this. As an honourable knight, Symeon uses the ‘honourable’ end of the blade but as his sapphire eyes suggest, under the influence of a different person or entitly, he could turn the blade round on command and use the ‘dishonourable’ end as well.

 

 

 

The Long Night
Relating this to the events of the Long Night suggests there was a faction (probably of greenseers) who employed white walkers against man (as recalled in Old Nan’s tales). The LN eventually ended. We must ask ourselves how it was possible to overcome the renegade WW and the thousands of wights that made up their army. As far as we know, there were no dragons around at the time, at least there’s no mention of them.

 

I imagine two things were important to ending the threat:

 

• killing the white walkers who had control over the wights

   

• leading the wights to a place where they could be destroyed

   

 

 

Killing white walkers would have been achieved by the person wielding Lightbringer (re: Edric Shadowchaser) – I don’t believe there were that many WW, perhaps max. 13 as seen in the show or 7 as suggested by the Kingsguard reference. Their existence appears to be dependent on a limited number of suitable babies (Craster). Shadowchaser also supports the idea of hunting down shades - the white shades of the WW. 

 

Leading wights to a ‘safe haven’  would have been made possible by the pact between the cotf and the Last hero. This involved the sacrifice of a Stark who was raised as a WW (the Last Hero) who was then directed to take care of the wights. Alternatively, the LH was the Stark greenseer who controlled ‘honorable’ WWs to do the job.

 

Of course it’s probably more complex than this and the fuzzy timeline does not help but that’s the gist of it, methinks.   Jon Snow would be the third 'faction' - perhaps the one to wield the blade and to break the chains binding wights and ww to their masters. 

 

 

 

Great post.  The story of Symeon.....in my humble opinion....offers as much information to us readers about the early history of the wall as the Varamyr Prologue does about warging and skinchanging.  I'm a left handed person so I generally takes things at face value.  Some call it a flaw, I call it a burden.

Of your four bullet points (honorable and handy with a double-bladed staff) can be used to identify many great nights throughout the history of Westeros who ultimately were sent to the Wall.  So far, Symeon doesn't really stand out from anyone.  Turning to the remaining two points:  sapphires eyes and watching hell-hounds fighting are what I find fascinating.  Citing scripture:

Bran 56 (ASOS): 

Bran wasn’t so sure.  The Nightfort had figured in some of Old Nan’s scariest stores.  It was here that Night’s King had reigned, before his name was wiped from the memory of man.  This was where the Rat Cook had served the Andal king his prince-and-bacon pie, where the seventy-nine sentinels stood their watch, where rave young Danny flint had been raped and murdered.  This was the castle where King Sherrit had called down his curse on the Andals of old, where the ‘prentice boys had faced the thing that came in the night, where blind Symeon Star Eyes had seen the hellhounds fighting.

Going with the literal interpretation here; if SSE saw hellhounds fighting, he saw them before he became blind.  Key definition here is that hellhounds = direwolves.  In other words, two stark brothers: one as commander of the night watch and the other in charge of Winterfell.  From here it should be pretty straight forward: the hellhounds fighting was after the Nights King brought his "white lady" back to the Wall.  The Winterfell Stark leaves; the Nights Kings unleashes strange sorceries on the other NW brothers and Symeon now has Sapphires for eyes.

I might be missing a few steps, but that is what I make of the story of Symeon Star-Eyes.

Thanks again for sharing Evolett.

 

[Black Crow]

A fair interpretation, but as ever I'm still inclined to look for a simpler story; that Symeon wasn't blind at all and the sapphires are just a fairy tale to account for his ordinary eyes turning starry blue - without damning him as one of "them".

An analogy here being Ser Arthur Dayne honoured as the parfait knight, the most accomplished and honourable of them all, rather than as Mad Aerys Targaryen's last bodyguard - and then, perhaps, like Barristan the Bold surviving the general massacre at the end of the Dance of the Direwolves, because notwithstanding the sins of his master he himself was still recognised as an honourable man.

[Evolett]

7 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

Going with the literal interpretation here; if SSE saw hellhounds fighting, he saw them before he became blind.  Key definition here is that hellhounds = direwolves.  In other words, two stark brothers: one as commander of the night watch and the other in charge of Winterfell.  From here it should be pretty straight forward: the hellhounds fighting was after the Nights King brought his "white lady" back to the Wall.  The Winterfell Stark leaves; the Nights Kings unleashes strange sorceries on the other NW brothers and Symeon now has Sapphires for eyes.

I might be missing a few steps, but that is what I make of the story of Symeon Star-Eyes.

Thanks again for sharing Evolett.

 

I'm on board with this interpretation too, especially since SSE sees the hellhounds fighting at the Nightfort itself. Personally, I think many of these quotes are mulitlayered and offer clues to a variety of things within a theme. So @Black Crow

Quote

A fair interpretation, but as ever I'm still inclined to look for a simpler story; that Symeon wasn't blind at all and the sapphires are just a fairy tale to account for his ordinary eyes turning starry blue - without damning him as one of "them".

I'm certain SSE and his starry eyes represent more than a fairy tale. Mace Cooterian expresses it quite well above - we can view the symbolism of SSE in terms of the transition from "blindness" to "blue starry eyes" mediated by sorcery. That's how I see sapphire eyes. They do relate to sorcery and we have a number of examples in the test linking them to wights and ww. Take undead Jafer Flowers for instance:

Quote

“Blossoms of hard cracked blood decorated the mortal wounds that covered him like a rash, breast and groin and throat. Yet his eyes were still open. They stared up at the sky, blue as sapphires.“

And an excerpt from Ned's dream:

Quote

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

Flowers eyes are blue as sapphires because he's been wighted, he's dead/ undead; Ned compares blue rose petals to blue eyes of death - there's a connection here between sapphires, flowers/roses and death. This set of symbols is repeated in various scenes:

Quote

 

The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats. Across the boy’s shoulders his cloak hung heavy. It was woven of forget-me-nots, real ones, hundreds of fresh blooms sewn to a heavy woolen cape.

 “Wed to Ser Loras, oh… Sansa’s breath caught in her throat. She remembered Ser Loras in his sparkling sapphire armor, tossing her a rose.”

 

Loras almost gets killed by the Mountain. Had the Hound not intervened, he might have ended up like Ser Hugh. 

 

I think the references to jewelled eyes are interesting and more significant than we realize. Daenerys has "amethyst eyes", various characters have onyx or emerald eyes. The sapphire eyes also remind me of the gemstone emperors of the Dawn. This may only be a small detail but in contrast to the all those mentioned, the first god-emperor does not have a gemstone name. If we apply SSE symbolism to this, it could imply that the first god-emperor was 'blind', while the rest of them could see after a fashion. Blindness can be interpreted in different ways as well: it could refer to actual blindness or to the absense of supernatural powers (third eye) or even to a lack of wisdom. In any case, it's interesting to speculate on all these possibilities. Plenty of food for thought. 

 

 

 

[Melifeather]

8 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

Going with the literal interpretation here; if SSE saw hellhounds fighting, he saw them before he became blind.

There's a passage where Bran is supposed to be looking around while in Summer to see if it's safe to leave the crypts, but gets side tracked when Summer and Shaggydog kill and feed on a horse. Meera and Jojen called him back, and Bran felt it as a "pulling", and the wolf in him described the crypts as the "dark place" and "the house of whispers where all men are blind".

The dark place was pulling at him by then, the house of whispers where all men were blind. He could feel its cold fingers on him. The stony smell of it was a whisper up the nose. He struggled against the pull. He did not like the darkness. He was wolf.

@snowfyre is currently working on some wonderful analysis connecting the Horn of Joramun, waking sleepers, waking giants, and the third eye. I'll try to condense the main thoughts, but basically:

1) the Stark kids initially only warg while sleeping and call it "wolf dreams".

2) the "Horn" is actually a wolf howl, as when Jon/Ghost howled and Bran/weirwood answered. Arya also answered this "horn" in the passage where she said she's done with wooden teeth. After the howl, all three make significant strides in their abilities. It woke "the sleepers" and Bran's third eye opened. It's not clear if Jon and Arya's third eye opened, but they each made progress.

3) a warg needs a direwolf in order to skinchange and "see" through the third eye. The direwolves belonging to the dead Starks in the crypts are long dead, so all the men in the crypts are blind.

4) using the example of the dead Starks in the crypts, where all men were blind, then couldn't Symeon Star-eyes be blind because his direwolf was dead? 

 

 

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Evolett said:

...I think the references to jewelled eyes are interesting and more significant than we realize. Daenerys has "amethyst eyes", various characters have onyx or emerald eyes. The sapphire eyes also remind me of the gemstone emperors of the Dawn. This may only be a small detail but in contrast to the all those mentioned, the first god-emperor does not have a gemstone name. If we apply SSE symbolism to this, it could imply that the first god-emperor was 'blind', while the rest of them could see after a fashion. Blindness can be interpreted in different ways as well: it could refer to actual blindness or to the absense of supernatural powers (third eye) or even to a lack of wisdom. In any case, it's interesting to speculate on all these possibilities. Plenty of food for thought. 

The references are certainly there, but all of them are metaphorical. I've no doubt at all that some sort of transformation takes place and that its indicative of magic, but always they are eyes not stones, so when Symeon has sapphires we're not talking about coloured chips of quartzite but eyes which have become blue as sapphires

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

...using the example of the dead Starks in the crypts, where all men were blind, then couldn't Symeon Star-eyes be blind because his direwolf was dead? 

I hear what you say, but while agreeing I think that at the same time its the other way around. Symeon was "blind" until his third eye was opened and his regular ones turned blue.

[Melifeather]

23 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I hear what you say, but while agreeing I think that at the same time its the other way around. Symeon was "blind" until his third eye was opened and his regular ones turned blue.

Not so sure, because if he was blind, did he once have sight?

[Black Crow]

14 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Not so sure, because if he was blind, did he once have sight?

Not necessarily, you can be blind from birth until you see the light. In that sense Bran was blind until his third eye was opened.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Not necessarily, you can be blind from birth until you see the light. In that sense Bran was blind until his third eye was opened.

Agreed, but am assuming the old Starks in the crypts were also once wargs as evidenced by their direwolf statues and iron swords warding their crypts, so if their spirits are there, trapped yet "alive" then they are blind now because their wolves are gone.