Black Crow Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 15 hours ago, shizett said: Maybe she is staying close to the wall because it increases her powers believing that if her help is needed she will know by the fire or ravens? Somehow I don't see our Mel and ravens going together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizett Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 35 minutes ago, Black Crow said: Somehow I don't see our Mel and ravens going together I meant postal service, not that kind of ravens! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 I know, but it was hard to resist, and yes Melisandre does tell Jon at one point that the Wall is as much her place as it is his. Does raise an interesting question though; was she simply referring to his ownership as Lord Commander or was she also obliquely referring to his being a son of Winterfell. In this latter context its interesting that in the photie posted in the earlier spoiler not only is Jon wearing Stark armour, but in another slightly larger version of it a rather indistinct figure standing under the umbrella is identified as our Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizett Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 59 minutes ago, Black Crow said: I know, but it was hard to resist, and yes Melisandre does tell Jon at one point that the Wall is as much her place as it is his. Does raise an interesting question though; was she simply referring to his ownership as Lord Commander or was she also obliquely referring to his being a son of Winterfell. Hidden Content I like that she explicitly mentions "the wall" not the north or ... She clearly feels some form of ownership/membership in magic, even if it is from Ice magic. Which just begs the question: Is there a difference? Spoiler I hate that Jon was assassinated. There are so few "humans" in the story that I enjoy that killing "Jon" is a no-no for me. What is he going to do next? Make Davos a prophet of the Seven? Not that it needs spoiler marks, this the written counterpart of talking in whispers over the phone when the other person is whispering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizett Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Also BC, I have no idea how much you guys had discussed the "snowflake" communion, but did you also talk about winds (as not just being winds and being comprehensible to Starky Starks somehow)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 1 hour ago, shizett said: Also BC, I have no idea how much you guys had discussed the "snowflake" communion, but did you also talk about winds (as not just being winds and being comprehensible to Starky Starks somehow)? Obliquely yes, in noting the parallels between the white walkers and the Sidhe/Wild Hunt - riding on the winds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion06 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 On February 8, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Black Crow said: The only thing I'd question is whether Rickon is slowly becoming Shaggydog. The wolf is already the dominant partner and I'd imagine that its a process which is likely to accelerate as time goes on. I can foresee a tragic/bittersweet end for young Rickon rather than a starring role at the end. As you point out we've not had a POV for him yet and its also worth noting that he's an afterthought unmentioned in the original synopsis. GRRM has obviously brought him in for a reason but not to completely change the original plot. I disagree with the idea that just because he's not mentioned in the original synopsis means he has no importance. For example, the Arya of the synopsis has next to nothing in common with the current Arya beyond the name and the close relationship to Jon (which so far has also been purely familial and not romantic). The Arya of the synopsis is more like our current Sansa and Farya. Similarly, the Sansa of the synopsis is a supporting character at best, but current Sansa is arguably one of the main characters. So it wouldn't be inconceivable that, like we see with the Arya of the synopsis, Rickon has inherited the role originally intended for another character like Bran or Jon because Martin has changed his plans with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 2 minutes ago, Balerion06 said: I disagree with the idea that just because he's not mentioned in the original synopsis means he has no importance. For example, the Arya of the synopsis has next to nothing in common with the current Arya beyond the name and the close relationship to Jon (which so far has also been purely familial and not romantic). The Arya of the synopsis is more like our current Sansa and Farya. Similarly, the Sansa of the synopsis is a supporting character at best, but current Sansa is arguably one of the main characters. So it wouldn't be inconceivable that, like we see with the Arya of the synopsis, Rickon has inherited the role originally intended for another character like Bran or Jon because Martin has changed his plans with them. All things are certainly possible and at the very least there has to be a reason for adding him to the original cast, but I still don't see him as a late arrival who has so far been all but invisible taking centre stage in the last book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion06 Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 6 hours ago, Black Crow said: All things are certainly possible and at the very least there has to be a reason for adding him to the original cast, but I still don't see him as a late arrival who has so far been all but invisible taking centre stage in the last book. He doesn't have to be important as a character unto himself that we're personally invested in, but he can easily be symbolically important as the rallying point for the North and surviving Starks while the Starks we do know do more important things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 5 hours ago, Balerion06 said: He doesn't have to be important as a character unto himself that we're personally invested in, but he can easily be symbolically important as the rallying point for the North and surviving Starks while the Starks we do know do more important things. Yeah, but that's still a bit incidental to the main story. In this regard its worth noting that in the photo spoiler above not only has Jon exchanged his Nights Watch black for a leather jack and boots per Lord Eddard Stark and a blue doublet, but the SFX article references a battle scene in which he's leading an army of Northmen including Umbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 To me, Rickon feels more like a plot point than a character. In the books, I think he gives GRRM an excuse to integrate the Skagosi - who, ostensibly, are sworn to House Stark - into the story, which may be potentially interesting in the sense that they seem to be a more culturally isolated group of FM descendants, and as such, may have kept lore that the rest of the North has forgotten. Beyond that, I'm not sure I expect much out of Rickon, other than what he currently represents in Davos' journey, and his potential as a future lord of Winterfell when all of the dust settles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 nicely summed up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ravenstark Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Why Bloodraven uses a three eyed crow instead of his more iconic, personal white dragon? Because he changed to a crow? I doubt the dragon just vanished. Hm, what color is Bran's third eye? And the winged wolf… are his wings leathery? Bloodraven claims to have been watching him since he was born, I wonder how many strings he has been pulling, turning his successor to his own agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 26 minutes ago, Lord Ravenstark said: Why Bloodraven uses a three eyed crow instead of his more iconic, personal white dragon? Because he changed to a crow? I doubt the dragon just vanished. Hm, what color is Bran's third eye? And the winged wolf… are his wings leathery? Bloodraven claims to have been watching him since he was born, I wonder how many strings he has been pulling, turning his successor to his own agenda. When Bloodraven was Hand of the King they were already asking, "how many eyes does Bloodraven have?" So, I think Bloodraven is a skinchanger, and we know he must have been, because a greenseer is first and foremost a skinchanger. Therefore, if ravens were associated with Bloodraven when he still walked amongst men, then they must have been his host animal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ravenstark Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 When Bloodraven was Hand of the King they were already asking, "how many eyes does Bloodraven have?" So, I think Bloodraven is a skinchanger, and we know he must have been, because a greenseer is first and foremost a skinchanger. Therefore, if ravens were associated with Bloodraven when he still walked amongst men, then they must have been his host animal. The white dragon would still be the most associated to him. In any case, I wasn't saying they are mutually exclusive, but saying the dragon is still out there. The winged dragon would be the result of Brynden Rivers of House Targaryen (white dragon) tinkering with Brandon Stark (direwolf) in order to make the later carry the will of the former. What I mean is, both have association to ravens, crows and now weirwood. It is shared between the two of them, and possible the children. These are "stock", but the direwolf (now a winged wolf) and the white dragons are far more personal and particular shapes. The question is: why wear a generic form instead of your own? Hiding ones face/image seems to be a recurrent theme in magic, though. The lacquered masks of the Asshai'i, the multiple faces of the faceless men, the constant use of glamour and disguises, the constantly change of skins. It seems that has an affinity to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 14, 2016 Author Share Posted February 14, 2016 On 2/12/2016 at 5:44 PM, Lord Ravenstark said: Why Bloodraven uses a three eyed crow instead of his more iconic, personal white dragon? Because he changed to a crow? I doubt the dragon just vanished. Hm, what color is Bran's third eye? And the winged wolf… are his wings leathery? Bloodraven claims to have been watching him since he was born, I wonder how many strings he has been pulling, turning his successor to his own agenda. That all depends on his agenda then and now and how much it has [really] changed, if at all. Thinking of him as a Targaryen loyalist, white [ice?] dragon or not, its all too easy to overlook that he was named by his mother, not his father, and that he is Bloodraven because the mother who bore him was a Blackwood of Raventree Hall. And, by the by, that's an interesting precedent to bear in mind when people start fantasising about Jon Stark's "real [Targaryen] name" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ravenstark Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 That all depends on his agenda then and now and how much it has [really] changed, if at all. Thinking of him as a Targaryen loyalist, white [ice?] dragon or not, its all too easy to overlook that he was named by his mother, not his father, and that he is Bloodraven because the mother who bore him was a Blackwood of Raventree Hall. And, by the by, that's an interesting precedent to bear in mind when people start fantasising about Jon Stark's "real [Targaryen] name" Well, he was a Targaryen loyalist. Lived his whole pre-crow life in a Targaryen court, lived by Targaryen customs -marrying his sister, or at least trying-, wore a white dragon. And he was a legitimized Targaryen, too. He may have been a Blackwood, but he was also a Targaryen. In fact, most of his life in the South was as Targaryen. I for myself never liked that thing "Targaryen are special/magical" but I can't deny BR ties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMiddleHero Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 On 2/12/2016 at 0:44 PM, Lord Ravenstark said: Why Bloodraven uses a three eyed crow instead of his more iconic, personal white dragon? Because he changed to a crow? I doubt the dragon just vanished. Hm, what color is Bran's third eye? And the winged wolf… are his wings leathery? Bloodraven claims to have been watching him since he was born, I wonder how many strings he has been pulling, turning his successor to his own agenda. It seems a bit crackpotty, but when Summer spies the smoke/shadow dragon over a burning Winterfell and snarls at it, I think this might be Bloodraven getting caught spying on Bran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ravenstark Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 It seems a bit crackpotty, but when Summer spies the smoke/shadow dragon over a burning Winterfell and snarls at it, I think this might be Bloodraven getting caught spying on Bran. As in… a raven spying on Bran but through Summer he saw what was really there, Bloodraven wearing the raven skin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMiddleHero Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 Just now, Lord Ravenstark said: As in… a raven spying on Bran but through Summer he saw what was really there, Bloodraven wearing the raven skin? Maybe I didn't clarify or maybe we are thinking of different scenes. Let me get a quote. Quote ACoK chapter 35 Yet as one smell drew them onward, others warned them back. He sniffed at the drifting smoke. Men, many men, many horses, and fire, fire, fire. No smell was more dangerous, not even the hard cold smell of iron, the stuff of man-claws and hardskin. The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame.He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars. I know many have made the point that this may be a dragon leaving WF, or something like that. Personally I would like to see it as Bran accidentally catching BR spying on him through Summer's eyes, noticing him briefly as a winged snake roaring a fiver of flame, then vanishing when noticed. Would seem a more fitting avatar for him, if he is not the three eyed crow. It is about the same time that Bran's third eye is starting to open being in the crypts. Or I may have just jumped into a conversation that I didn't read far enough back into and I am just spouting meaningless crap within it's contexts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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