A Dragon did wake from Stone and She has Three heads and Her name is Daenerys Targaryen

[El Guapo]

45 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

From someone who won't address the issue of GRRM's words mentioned that I think explains our responses well. 

 

Very reasoned response. I think you touch on something GRRM does often: he creates expectations so he can surprise the reader. He did this with Ned's execution, Oberyn losing the trial by combat and Tyrion as the one who sent the footpad to kill Bran. It only makes sense he would do the same thing with the AA prophecy. 

 

GRRM was talking about a king who had a prophetic dream who did everything in hiw power to try to NOT make that prohecy come true but it can true anyway in a very different way.  The equivalent in the book for that is Cersei.  It is not Dany.

 

[Drogonthedread]

1 hour ago, Edd Tollett's One Vote said:

Honestly, there is a staggering amount of evidence for Dany being everything mentioned, and I think the OP has done a fantastic job putting it all together, but as someone who tends to think that it's Jon, I think the problem with Dany as AA/TPTWP (though not necessarily TSTMTW) is that there is so much evidence. I do understand that the OP asks us not to dismiss this as a red herring, but I can't forget that this is a novel, and that red herrings are a very real thing in literature. Equally, whenever too early on in any series or book someone says x is y, and it's a central mystery of the plot, I tend not to believe it. For one thing, because 'red herrings' and for another because I simply think it's a poor authorial choice to tell your reader who it is, even if it is via a character who may or may not know, because it automatically alerts them to the possibility and makes the reveal less exciting. Admittedly, I could be entirely wrong, and it could be Dany, but I, personally, would be a bit disappointed because she is obvious and I would feel like it lessened other characters (again I'm sorry OP! lol but I can't change that feeling - try as I might)

Once again though, there definitely is a ton of evidence pointing at Dany, and I feel like it would be impossible to prove that anything that's been cited as evidence is false. There are a ton of signs that Dany seems to fit. It's just that she fits them too nicely. 

(Also: side note - Dany is not my favourite character, no doubt, but I don't passionately dislike her either. I'd likely be just as contrary to another character if the signs all pointed to them so clearly as well.)

I like your approach and respect your opinion. .

Isnt that what stannis is been a red herring and look how GRRm made sure that stannis is red herring while dany is the real one...he has given us stannis and hidden dany so far...

I think its OK with what GRRm did he made Aemon claim in the last book ( I consider feast and dance as one ) ...for me I believe who is AAR/TPTWP is not the real mystery here but the three heads of the dragon ...

What you aee saying have crossee my mind ..but my only question is this why bother giving too much clues in ADWD even after he made sure that the reveal was done in AFFC he could have simply left the clues and started focusing on the real one ..but instead we get half of the clues I included in OP from ADwD ...you see from illyrio and tyrion's speech to the tale Jon reads and Jon and Mel conversation to xaro and his speech all comes from ADWD ...again why bother with all this if it intended as red herring ..

Do you understand what iam saying ....my only gripe with those saying she is red herring because its obvious is the same ones who speak for RLJ and my main point of this thread is to show that this has more eveidence than RLJ ..

I can admit to the possibility that Jon becoming one but then I will think both dany and Jon are the ones not just Jon and dany as red herring because of the amount of the evidence and importance to the story ..

 In my mind I keep asking even if jon wakes as AAR after the sacrifice what really changes maybe his personality but I am Wondering how it changes the odds of defeating WW ...what impact will it have on the world ...is it any unique thing that have happened in the series ( coming back from dead ) definitely not..they still need dragons and dany do they not ...on the other hand take the birthing of dragons and dany reborn ...you get what I mean right ..

take TPTWP some one who is thought to be embodiment of the house targaryen and bring dragons back ...I wonder who fits it more ...  

Another thing is that GEorge wants the characters decision and actions make them as heroes ...every thing that dany has done after her marriage has been her decision and it was who she that acted on it no matter how grey the actions are ...not dependent on the others like a red priest to wake herself as AAr or Dragons.   Only here the Blame will be shifted to Mel if something like shireen is burned in order to bring one back ...while on the other hand it's the decision of dany to burn MMD .

 

3 hours ago, El Guapo said:

I'd respond to the last two posts but since it is clear that neither one of them even bothered to read the OP it would be  a waste of time. 

Why bother its a waste of time. . 

 

 

 

[Drogonthedread]

36 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

 

GRRM was talking about a king who had a prophetic dream who did everything in hiw power to try to NOT make that prohecy come true but it can true anyway in a very different way.  The equivalent in the book for that is Cersei.  It is not Dany.

 

Exactly ...not only to cersei it applies to Rhaegar as well ...if he did come to the conclusion and took lyanna then doesnt it mean he got it right and its been obvious ..on the other hand I think its because of his actions that dany was born and raised in essos and will eventually and up in the Wall ..indirectly makes the prophecy comes true not directly ..

And let's talk about the prophecy itself ..GRRM said prophecy should not be obvious ..but let's look at the interpretation of the prophecy ..he died under the inn which has the castle as the sign right.  

Interpretation turns out to be straight forward and obvious he dies under the sigil of the castle than under the real castle ...

Can we say that we will be getting the same straightforward and obvious explanation and interpretation for Jon ...as far as we have seen people go to all sorts of twisting and stretching to fit him .

The key word in what GRrM says is' the more you try to avoid them ,the more you are making it true " ...which does not have to Do with dany and AAR at all.

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

12 minutes ago, Drogonthedread said:

I like your approach and respect your opinion. .

Isnt that what stannis is been a red herring and look how GRRm made sure that stannis is red herring while dany is the real one...he has given us stannis and hidden dany so far...

I think its OK with what GRRm did he made Aemon claim in the last book ( I consider feast and dance as one ) ...for me I believe who is AAR/TPTWP is not the real mystery here but the three heads of the dragon ...

What you aee saying have crossee my mind ..but my only question is this why bother giving too much clues in ADWD even after he made sure that the reveal was done in AFFC he could have simply left the clues and started focusing on the real one ..but instead we get half of the clues I included in OP from ADwD ...you see from illyrio and tyrion's speech to the tale Jon reads and Jon and Mel conversation to xaro and his speech all comes from ADWD ...again why bother with all this if it intended as red herring ..

Do you understand what iam saying ....my only gripe with those saying she is red herring because its obvious is the same ones who speak for RLJ and my main point of this thread is to show that this has more eveidence than RLJ ..

I can admit to the possibility that Jon becoming one but then I will think both dany and Jon are the ones not just Jon and dany as red herring because of the amount of the evidence and importance to the story ..

 In my mind I keep asking even if jon wakes as AAR after the sacrifice what really changes maybe his personality but I am Wondering how it changes the odds of defeating WW ...what impact will it have on the world ...is it any unique thing that have happened in the series ( coming back from dead ) definitely not..they still need dragons and dany do they not ...on the other hand take the birthing of dragons and dany reborn ...you get what I mean right ..

take TPTWP some one who is thought to be embodiment of the house targaryen and bring dragons back ...I wonder who fits it more ...  

Another thing is that GEorge wants the characters decision and actions make them as heroes ...every thing that dany has done after her marriage has been her decision and it was who she that acted on it no matter how grey the actions are ...not dependent on the others like a red priest to wake herself as AAr or Dragons.   Only here the Blame will be shifted to Mel if something like shireen is burned in order to bring one back ...while on the other hand it's the decision of dany to burn MMD .

 

 

 

For the record, I completely respect your opinion as well. It's an unfinished series, and honestly, we're all just speculating. 

In terms of why I don't see Dany as the true AA, or PTWP, and Stannis as the red herring, it's because I don't think Stannis is a particularly convincing Red Herring. I would argue that the majority of people who read the book do not think Stannis is actually AA, though admittedly this is an argument based on my opinion (I've definitely never taken a poll!). I'm sure some people believe that Stannis is AA, but I would suspect it's a minority. As lots of people point out (including Jon in the books), too many things don't line up with Stannis. Since I consider GRRM to generally be an excellent writer, I don't think he'd make such an obvious red herring, if there wasn't another one. 

As for why the clues alluding to Dany are in both AFFC and ADWD, they were intended to be a single book that he split due to length IRC. Either way, the fifth book in a series of seven still seems too soon for me for us to find out who AA is. I would expect it to happen either in the 7th or at the end of the 6th. Of course, like everything else that is 100% just an opinion. 

As I've mentioned though, all the signs in the book do currently point to Dany, so I can't, and won't, argue that they don't. My reasoning for not believing them is purely due to how I view Martin's as a writer. Of course, not being Martin myself, I can't be certain that he's doing what I assume he is.

Honestly, considering that I credit him so much with subverting our assumptions, maybe I should begin to suspect Stannis as AA, simply because he's actually the last person I'd guess at the moment! 

[Fire Eater]

1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

 

GRRM was talking about a king who had a prophetic dream who did everything in hiw power to try to NOT make that prohecy come true but it can true anyway in a very different way.  The equivalent in the book for that is Cersei.  It is not Dany.

 

There was no king mentioned. The lord thought he would die beneath the walls of a literal castle, and he died beneath the walls of a painted likeness. That example wasn't exclusive, and those words "you don't want to be too literal or too easy" still apply easily to all prophecies in the series. The fact remains that having Dany declared AA before she even deals with the Others makes it too easy, and hatching dragons are too literal. It also goes against the way GRRM does prophecies: they aren't explicitly explained or made clear until after the prophesied event occurs, in this case the Battle for Dawn. It just takes away the excitement of the reveal as Edd Tollett's One Vote Squire pointed out.

[El Guapo]

20 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

There was no king mentioned. The lord thought he would die beneath the walls of a literal castle, and he died beneath the walls of a painted likeness. That example wasn't exclusive, and those words "you don't want to be too literal or too easy" still apply easily to all prophecies in the series. The fact remains that having Dany declared AA before she even deals with the Others makes it too easy, and hatching dragons are too literal. It also goes against the way GRRM does prophecies: they aren't explicitly explained or made clear until after the prophesied event occurs, in this case the Battle for Dawn. It just takes away the excitement of the reveal as Edd Tollett's One Vote Squire pointed out.

It does nothing of the sort because until the Battle of Dawn takes place and doesn't make a whiff of difference who anyone declares AAR whether it be Aemon declaring Dany, or Mel declaring Stannis and soon to be Jon. The only "confirmation" we will get to AAR's indentity will come after the  battle of the dawn and what roles the characters play in it. That is it. And knowing GRRM even after the battle takes place the answer might not be that clear.

 

[purple-eyes]

39 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

It does nothing of the sort because until the Battle of Dawn takes place and doesn't make a whiff of difference who anyone declares AAR whether it be Aemon declaring Dany, or Mel declaring Stannis and soon to be Jon. The only "confirmation" we will get to AAR's indentity will come after the  battle of the dawn and what roles the characters play in it. That is it. And knowing GRRM even after the battle takes place the answer might not be that clear.

 

right, only after we see the end of the book (maybe 6, 7 years?), we will know for sure who is AA/promised prince.

But I put my money on Jon Snow.

[Drogonthedread]

18 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

right, only after we see the end of the book (maybe 6, 7 years?), we will know for sure who is AA/promised prince.

But I put my money on Jon Snow.

We only need TWOW for that I believe. ..which should be taking a year or two.  .

I cant wait to see tge reactions of same people if Mel calls jon as AAR ..because being claimed as AAr in the end of book 5 is red herring but called AAR straight in the face at the start of book 6 is not a red herring ..LOL

[Anythingatall]

7 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

 

GRRM's own words disqualify Dany as AA, precisely because it is overwhelming with hatching literal dragons characters saying she is AA. 

 

I think you are reading too much into that.  GRRM likes to keep the reader guessing regarding prophecies in his writing but doesn't mind giving away massive plot points regarding those prophecies in interviews?  

I think the important thing to remember is that we are talking about an unfinished work, just because the most obvious clues point to Dany at the moment doesn't mean it will stay that way.   Plus the identity of AA may not be the mystery as much as their role in the story (The AA as a villain theories seem relatively viable).

 

 

[purple-eyes]

Personally I think Dany is just a biggest red herring in the book.

Everybody thought her as the AA or promised one or savior to the world.

But maybe her main purpose was just to hatch dragons and then hand them to real hero Jon Snow by dying at childbirth.

Do not forget Jon Snow is supposed to be "black" and he is going to ride the black dragon I think.

 

[Ser Not Appearing]

I hate to say tldr... but it was so long that I didn't finish. Ultimately, my (bad) feeling/guess is that 'dragon from stone' is figurative and refers to a grayscale epidemic.

Also related - I don't agree with it, but I did hear a theory on salt and smoke being a poorly described vision of snow and cold breath (Jon related).

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

30 minutes ago, Anythingatall said:

I think you are reading too much into that.  GRRM likes to keep the reader guessing regarding prophecies in his writing but doesn't mind giving away massive plot points regarding those prophecies in interviews?  

I think the important thing to remember is that we are talking about an unfinished work, just because the most obvious clues point to Dany at the moment doesn't mean it will stay that way.   Plus the identity of AA may not be the mystery as much as their role in the story (The AA as a villain theories seem relatively viable).

 

 

Honestly, that the mystery ends up being the role is probably the way I would subscribe to the Dany is AA theory the best, because as you said, it shifts what the surprise is. However, if AA is the hero everyone's expecting, I still think it would be a very, very odd choice for GRRM to point so heavily to Dany and have someone mention it. I'll also point out that it wasn't mentioned in a some big reveal that gave the reader a sense of satisfaction that the mystery was solved. It was just a comment by some character. I completely understand if some people will take this point and argue that this just keeps us guessing, but IMO, from a writing stand point, it will only serve to lessen the reveal later. 

Basically, my argument against Dany as AA is that I can't see it being an exciting reveal to the majority of people, most of whom I'm sure have noticed the signs pointing to her. (Unless the previous twist in role instead of person comes true, then it could be a very interesting plot point)

[Anythingatall]

Just now, Edd Tollett's One Vote said:

Honestly, that the mystery ends up being the role is probably the way I would subscribe to the Dany is AA theory the best, because as you said, it shifts what the surprise is. However, if AA is the hero everyone's expecting, I still think it would be a very, very odd choice for GRRM to point so heavily to Dany and have someone mention it. I'll also point out that it wasn't mentioned in a some big reveal that gave the reader a sense of satisfaction that the mystery was solved. It was just a comment by some character. I completely understand if some people will take this point and argue that this just keeps us guessing, but IMO, from a writing stand point, it will only serve to lessen the reveal later. 

Basically, my argument against Dany as AA is that I can't see it being an exciting reveal to the majority of people, most of whom I'm sure have noticed the signs pointing to her. (Unless the previous twist in role instead of person comes true, then it could be a very interesting plot point)

Again though that depends on what happens in the next two books.  Will we get more information regarding AA that puts other people more in the frame?  Will Jon et al have more matching qualities?  And the big one... will there even be a reveal? 

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

5 minutes ago, Anythingatall said:

Again though that depends on what happens in the next two books.  Will we get more information regarding AA that puts other people more in the frame?  Will Jon et al have more matching qualities?  And the big one... will there even be a reveal? 

Well of course! Everything depends on what happens in the next two books

But yes, I'm sure if GRRM wanted to he could potentially do something where he made it so that AA was Dany and it was still surprising, but based on what I've read so far, I'd say Dany is the obvious candidate and so her reveal would be lacking in some way. If he changes that in some way, that's great! I'd be fascinated to see how he does it. 

If there is no reveal... eh that's alright too I suppose. Then we can have hundreds of threads like these where people battle it out trying to figure out who AA was the whole time and if the prophecy did or didn't come to fruition. At that point, I'll probably work very hard to argue that it was Hot Pie, because why not?

[Anythingatall]

Just now, Edd Tollett's One Vote said:

 

If there is no reveal... eh that's alright too I suppose. Then we can have hundreds of threads like these where people battle it out trying to figure out who AA was the whole time and if the prophecy did or didn't come to fruition. At that point, I'll probably work very hard to argue that it was Hot Pie, because why not?

Haha, that's honestly what I think will happen.  I don't think the end game of the the Song is going to be a one man job, even if it ends with Hot Pit sticking Lightbringer in the heart of the King Other he isn't going to get there alone and there is nobody with the authority to actually answer the in-book-universe.  

[Myself656]

6 hours ago, Edd Tollett's One Vote said:

Honestly, there is a staggering amount of evidence for Dany being everything mentioned, and I think the OP has done a fantastic job putting it all together, but as someone who tends to think that it's Jon, I think the problem with Dany as AA/TPTWP (though not necessarily TSTMTW) is that there is so much evidence. I do understand that the OP asks us not to dismiss this as a red herring, but I can't forget that this is a novel, and that red herrings are a very real thing in literature.

Well, there is another alternative to Dany not really being AA/TPTWP that would equally fall into the realm of "red herring" and that would be that Azor Ahai / The Prince That Was Promised is not actually the hero figure that everyone seems to think he is. Particularly if you weld "The Stallion Who Mounts the World" into the mix.

We tend to regard Mirri Maz Duur as something of a villain because she basically killed Drogo and may have caused the miscarriage of Rheago... two things that gravely hurt Dany. But by her own words she'd already been raped repeatedly by Drogo's men and the prophecy of TSWMTW is of a figure whose armies will cover the earth, burn cities everywhere and trample nations into the ground.

"His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief."

That's not a description of someone whose going to save mankind from the Others and then create some Utopian paradise. The Others don't have wives to weep nor blood to weep tears of. This is "FIRE AND BLOOD" writ across the entire world... the Bloodstone Emperor reborn.

As the Mythical Astronomy stuff has pointed out, there are distinct links between the story of AA and the Bloodstone Emperor. Indeed, consider the Emperor murdering his sister for her power and AA tempering his blade (i.e. his power) by plunging it into his wife in relation to the Targaryan incest tradition of Sister-Wives and that Dany's husband murdered her brother Viserys for her... usurping Viserys' position as rightful heir.

And lets not forget too that while very cool... dragons are NOT generally the tools of the hero in anything other than a few modern settings. There's a reason the devil is depicted as a multi-headed dragon and a creature described as "fire made flesh" sounds more like the Balrog from Lord of The Rings than the mount of a heroic figure.

In short... Mirri Maz Duur could have been RIGHT to try and prevent the prophecy and the red herring might not be the IDENTITY of Azor Ahai, but that the PURPOSE of Azor Ahai is not to be the hero, but to be the villain.

ETA: and a bunch of people (including the person I replied to) have commented since I started writing basically saying the same thing.

[Fire Eater]

3 hours ago, El Guapo said:

It does nothing of the sort because until the Battle of Dawn takes place and doesn't make a whiff of difference who anyone declares AAR whether it be Aemon declaring Dany, or Mel declaring Stannis and soon to be Jon. The only "confirmation" we will get to AAR's indentity will come after the  battle of the dawn and what roles the characters play in it. That is it. And knowing GRRM even after the battle takes place the answer might not be that clear.

 

Having Dany being AA after having been declared by several people before the prophesied event occurs makes it too obvious for the reader. She fits too neatly, and it is practically shouted in the reader's face. I agree it won't be confirmed until the end, but the problem with arguing Dany is AA is that it means it is already confirmed in the text.  

 

2 hours ago, Anythingatall said:

I think you are reading too much into that.  GRRM likes to keep the reader guessing regarding prophecies in his writing but doesn't mind giving away massive plot points regarding those prophecies in interviews?  

I think the important thing to remember is that we are talking about an unfinished work, just because the most obvious clues point to Dany at the moment doesn't mean it will stay that way.   Plus the identity of AA may not be the mystery as much as their role in the story (The AA as a villain theories seem relatively viable).

 

 

No, those are his own words regarding how prophecy should work in fiction. 

The most obvious clues do point towards Dany likely meaning she is just a red herring, even more so than Stannis. 

[Bran the Shipper]

16 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Having Dany being AA after having been declared by several people before the prophesied event occurs makes it too obvious for the reader. She fits too neatly, and it is practically shouted in the reader's face. I agree it won't be confirmed until the end, but the problem with arguing Dany is AA is that it means it is already confirmed in the text.   

Actually no one suspect's Dany until after the prophesized event occurs, in fact we don't even know about the prophecy until afterwards.  Since it is the pyre scene that fits the prophecy and the primary evidence that Dany is Azor Ahai all takes place in the first book.  But the first we hear about Azor Ahai is in the second book, if I'm not mistaken. 

Yes the War for Dawn has not taken place yet, but that isn't really included in the prophecy about who will be The Prince that was Promised.  And if we assume that the dragons (Dany's lightbringer) will play an integral role in winning the War, which most agree, then she already has fulfilled her role as Azor Ahai reborn.  As long as her lightbringer helps destroy the darkness (Others), the prophecy is fulfilled in her and no other future event matters.

[Fire Eater]

3 hours ago, Bran the Shipper said:

Actually no one suspect's Dany until after the prophesized event occurs, in fact we don't even know about the prophecy until afterwards.  Since it is the pyre scene that fits the prophecy and the primary evidence that Dany is Azor Ahai all takes place in the first book.  But the first we hear about Azor Ahai is in the second book, if I'm not mistaken. 

Yes the War for Dawn has not taken place yet, but that isn't really included in the prophecy about who will be The Prince that was Promised.  And if we assume that the dragons (Dany's lightbringer) will play an integral role in winning the War, which most agree, then she already has fulfilled her role as Azor Ahai reborn.  As long as her lightbringer helps destroy the darkness (Others), the prophecy is fulfilled in her and no other future event matters.

The PtwP is very clearly about who leads the Battle for Dawn, which is the prophesied event that is alluded. If that prophesied event hasn't occurred yet, then any proclaimed saviors are red herrings for the moment. Also, that interpretation of the prophecy is still too literal, and breaks GRRM's rule regarding prophecies. 

[Mon ami]

On 2/2/2016 at 0:54 AM, Drogonthedread said:

since the previous thread i started on this got lost due to forum upgrade ..i created new one ..hope this one stays

Dany is the dragon with three heads.  I thought this was already clear from the books.  Rhaegar was only partly right.  The dragon needs three heads but none are to come from his union with Lyanna or Elia.  The dragon had to come from Aerys and Rhaella.  Any child of Rhaegar with Lyanna or Elia are only half-Targaryen and that won't do. 

Dany has the purest blood of any Targaryen right now.  Though she has Targaryen, Dayne, and Blackwood blood.