A Dragon did wake from Stone and She has Three heads and Her name is Daenerys Targaryen

[Mon ami]

20 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Having Dany being AA after having been declared by several people before the prophesied event occurs makes it too obvious for the reader. She fits too neatly, and it is practically shouted in the reader's face. I agree it won't be confirmed until the end, but the problem with arguing Dany is AA is that it means it is already confirmed in the text.  

 

No, those are his own words regarding how prophecy should work in fiction. 

The most obvious clues do point towards Dany likely meaning she is just a red herring, even more so than Stannis. 

Actually this is another example of George planning and setting everything up.  I think the opposite.  Having anyone else become Azor Ahai in place of Dany would make for awful storytelling.   Dany makes sense for that role of Azor Ahai.  Throwing aside all of the evidence later on is just trying too hard to create a surprise.  It will ruin the story for me.  She is Azor Ahai.

[Fire Eater]

6 minutes ago, Mon ami said:

Actually this is another example of George planning and setting everything up.  I think the opposite.  Having anyone else become Azor Ahai in place of Dany would make for awful storytelling.   Dany makes sense for that role of Azor Ahai.  Throwing aside all of the evidence later on is just trying too hard to create a surprise.  It will ruin the story for me.  She is Azor Ahai.

No, I think it would be bad storytelling to have the identity of AA revealed before the War for Dawn, and then just basically have the reader wait for it to happen. It just takes away the suspense and excitement of the reveal of AA. GRRM says as much: 

Quote

Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy.

Having the identity of AA revealed beforehand goes against GRRM's own words as well as style. Having Dany as AA fits "too literal and too easy."

[Mon ami]

1 minute ago, Fire Eater said:

No, I think it would be bad storytelling to have the identity of AA revealed before the War for Dawn, and then just basically have the reader wait for it to happen. It just takes away the suspense and excitement of the reveal of AA. GRRM says as much: 

Having the identity of AA revealed beforehand goes against GRRM's own words as well as style. Having Dany as AA fits "too literal and too easy."

Obviously, you and I do not agree on this.  That's alright. 

And that quote doesn't really apply to the current discussion.  He was referring to prophecies in general.  Regardless of the prophecies, when someone fulfills all of those things that Dany has accomplished, she cannot be anyone other than Azor Ahai.  George doesn't resort to fake outs. 

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

My only problem with Dany being the/only AAR/TPTWP is that Dany fulfills the prophesy before we know about the prophesy.  Double checked with A Search of Ice and Fire and the first instance of people talking about AA is Davos I ACoK, the first time TPTWP was mentioned was Daenerys IV ACoK, while the dragons hatched back during Daenerys X GoT.  In a book, why fulfill the prophesy before the prophesy is known to the reader?   This question is not meant to disprove, only question Dany being/ being the onlyonly  AAR/TPTWP.

[GravyFace]

3 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

No, I think it would be bad storytelling to have the identity of AA revealed before the War for Dawn, and then just basically have the reader wait for it to happen. It just takes away the suspense and excitement of the reveal of AA. GRRM says as much: 

Having the identity of AA revealed beforehand goes against GRRM's own words as well as style. Having Dany as AA fits "too literal and too easy."

If Dany as AA with Drogon as her lightbringer is too literal, then Jon as AA wielding an actual burning sword is even more literal and even easier.

[Nozlym]

i feel like george made dany look like the prophesied person with the easy enough imagery and the fitting of some easy alignment to prophecies for the casual reader. someone who will pick up the book and read it once through and find the easy connections and root for her. nothing wrong with that. but to the real fans who like to delve deeper will know whats really going on. so hes satisfying both types of readers. but in the end the rug will be pulled out to reveal the truth, and one might guess as to which reader had it figured out all along.

[Myself656]

9 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Having the identity of AA revealed beforehand goes against GRRM's own words as well as style. Having Dany as AA fits "too literal and too easy."

That depends upon what twist GRRM plans to use. The identity of the person the prophecy is about is only one way to twist a prophecy.

Take the classic from Buffy... "The Slayer will die and the Master will rise." There's no twist whatsoever to the identities in the prophecy, but there is a twist in the results that made the prophecy essentially say the opposite of what actually occurred. Buffy only drowned and got CPR and the Master did rise, but he got killed almost immediately thereafter by Buffy. The prophecy came true, but the end result was the opposite of what the prophecy said... the Slayer was alive and the Master fell.

So if the identity of AA/TPTWP/TSWMTW is blindingly obvious, its probably more productive to look at how GRRM might twist the other aspects of the prophecy. For example, if TSWMTW is the same person, then she's not a bright shiny happy liberator of Westeros who will rule justly and wisely, but a conqueror who will burn cities and grind civilizations to dust while widows weep blood and rend their flesh in grief (i.e. not just ordinary grief, but Cat during the Red Wedding level grief). That might be better than the Others killing absolutely everyone, but not by much.

[Fire Eater]

21 hours ago, Mon ami said:

Obviously, you and I do not agree on this.  That's alright. 

And that quote doesn't really apply to the current discussion.  He was referring to prophecies in general.  Regardless of the prophecies, when someone fulfills all of those things that Dany has accomplished, she cannot be anyone other than Azor Ahai.  George doesn't resort to fake outs. 

It clearly does apply given it is GRRM's personal belief on how prophecy should by used in fantasy. She can't be AA without GRRM violating his own principle regarding prophecy in fiction. Doesn't resort to fake outs? Name to me one prophecy that was fully explained before the prophesied event occurred in the series. It isn't made clear until after the event occurs. GRRM is known to use red herrings, and create false impressions to surprise the reader. 

You are contradicting yourself. You said he was referring to prophecies in general yet, it doesn't apply to this prophecy without a plasuible explanation. Dany didn't fight the Battle for Dawn so the prophecy is yet to be accomplished. 

18 hours ago, GravyFace said:

If Dany as AA with Drogon as her lightbringer is too literal, then Jon as AA wielding an actual burning sword is even more literal and even easier.

No, because it was a dream and no one was explicitly saying Jon was AA. Dreams in this series serve as prophecies and foreshadowing.  

[Son of Man]

19 hours ago, GravyFace said:

If Dany as AA with Drogon as her lightbringer is too literal, then Jon as AA wielding an actual burning sword is even more literal and even easier.

Correct. 

Having Jon end up AA is most predictable.  Better for a female AA this time.

[Nozlym]

i just want to put this out there. but what in your opinion is more important. the wielder of said legendary sword, or the sword itself?

i feel like this AA myth is in a way a red herring. i dont think the saviour is AA but LB. so when ppl r going around calling others AA reborn and such, i feel like they gotten it all wrong.

idk its just how i feel when ppl r proclaiming such and such is AA, heres why!! they r missing the bigger picture on what actually haulted the long night.

[Bran the Shipper]

1 hour ago, Nozlym said:

i just want to put this out there. but what in your opinion is more important. the wielder of said legendary sword, or the sword itself?

i feel like this AA myth is in a way a red herring. i dont think the saviour is AA but LB. so when ppl r going around calling others AA reborn and such, i feel like they gotten it all wrong.

idk its just how i feel when ppl r proclaiming such and such is AA, heres why!! they r missing the bigger picture on what actually haulted the long night.

I would say that the sword is more important.  After all Azor Ahai seems to be legendary primarily because he forged Lightbringer.  And the prophecy surrounding Azor Ahai reborn also emphasizes that he will reforge Lightbringer.

[Lord Wraith]

On 2/7/2016 at 7:00 PM, Slowpoke Martin said:

Dany will be the villain. I don't need any evidence of it, just a strong gut feeling. Everything about her and everything that happened to her feels wrong. Dany will be the ultimate trope twist just watch.

Indeed.

[Myself656]

11 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

It clearly does apply given it is GRRM's personal belief on how prophecy should by used in fantasy. She can't be AA without GRRM violating his own principle regarding prophecy in fiction.

Sure she can... everyone just has to be wrong about what being AA means and its exactly as GRRM described. Imagine all these people backing the belief that Dany is AA/TPTWP and throwing support her way so that she can fulfill her destiny, only to have it turn out they've been throwing support behind a bloodthirsty teenage girl who plans on burning the world down to get her way and can't even produce an heir to lend some sense of stability to ruling the ashes afterwards.

They thought they were backing someone who would save and restore civilization and they even helped bring that prophecy to pass only to realize too late that what they brought about was the downfall and ruin of civilization and between Dany and the Walkers the only heroes will be those who get the innocent out of the line of fire and start the long process of rebuilding after the end of the current age.

It'd be like the whole Chosen One prophecy in Star Wars... the Jedi thought the Chosen One was going to bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith, instead he destroyed the entire Jedi Order so that only two remained... just like only two Sith remained. I wonder how many priests of the Red God have really pondered what the promised world with no night or cold would look like? How well would Varys and Illyrio survive in the post-apocalyptic wasteland of a total war between Ice and Fire where only the physically strong have anything of value to offer society?

On top of that, throw in the twist that the Others aren't attacking unprovoked but are actually something akin to the immune system reacting to a virus against the coming of the champion of fire to burn the world (only instead of a fever to burn out a virus, its cold to freeze out a fire) and the prophecy is predicting that the destructive force of fire is going to forever destroy the balance of the world by destroying the force of ice completely.

That would qualify as a sufficiently misread prophecy to me. The identity of AA is only the smallest part of the prophecy as far as I can tell... its what exactly AA is going to DO that up in the air and right now washing the world in Fire and Blood seems a likely prospect.

A lot of the debate over why Dany can't be AA seems linked to the false impression that AA is meant to be the hero of the story and people think there are better candidates than Dany for that role. But if AA isn't the hero then why would you want whichever your chosen candidate for hero to be AA?

That's akin to hoping Obi-Wan or Yoda could be the Chosen One instead of that whiny Anakin guy because the Chosen One is supposed to bring balance to the Force and that's a big heroic thing. Anakin was the Chosen One, but Obi-Wan was the hero.

[Amris]

On 9.2.2016 at 2:35 PM, Myself656 said:

Sure she can... everyone just has to be wrong about what being AA means and its exactly as GRRM described.

[snip]

That's akin to hoping Obi-Wan or Yoda could be the Chosen One instead of that whiny Anakin guy because the Chosen One is supposed to bring balance to the Force and that's a big heroic thing. Anakin was the Chosen One, but Obi-Wan was the hero.

Excellent post. And excellent OP! Congratulations to both of you.

I would like to add two bits:

1) as we already discussed in another thread the PtwP prophecy seems to literally speak about 'dragon' - not prince/princess. That a human being (prince/princess) is meant seems to be an interpretation followed by Aemon and Rhaegar. Aemon explicitly says that the prophecy was misunderstood because dragons are neither male nor female. So dragons are what is actually spoken about.

It is of course possible that the prophecy meant a metaphorical dragon and that Dany and Jon or Tyrion or Jaime or whoever your fav secret Targ is is being meant.

But literally dragons seems to be the word used and I think that fits well with the OP's interpretation that Dany is the reborn dragon and that Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion are the three heads.

2) the PtwP prophecy has a Messiah-like ring to it. Some type of  redeemer seems to be expected (or a 'dark' redeemer as Myself656 above - and many other fans - think). The point is: since we seem to be in Messiah-like territory (whether it's a good or bad Messiah does not matter for the point I am making here) it makes sense that GRRM would heavily borrow from the Bible when building the story that fulfills the prophecy.

Incidentally GRRM does just that:

Dany's first chapter in Clash reads like a renarration of the Nativity Story.

Having given birth in a sense - with a comet up in the sky - (and been reborn in the process) - Dany and her little Khalasar have nowhere to go except to an abandoned city (read: stable with crib) in the Red Waste (since all other directions are blocked by hostile Khalasars) (read: all inns where filled up).

They stay in that forsaken place and there after a time get visited by three sages (Pyat Pree, Xaro Xoan Daxos and Quaithe) who have come to see the wonder that has been born into the world (the dragons).

If I am right and this Dany chapter really is borrowed from the Nativity Story then it would seem that the dragons are the Messiah the prophecy speaks about. I think the OP's interpretation - Dany + dragons - would also go with this. But I don't see Jon or whoever fit in here.

 

[Myself656]

53 minutes ago, Amris said:

If I am right and this Dany chapter really is borrowed from the Nativity Story then it would seem that the dragons are the Messiah the prophecy speaks about. I think the OP's interpretation - Dany + dragons - would also go with this. But I don't see Jon or whoever fit in here.

Well, like I said, I think the twist will be that she's a Dark Messiah of the "Utopia justifies the means variety." She loves widows and orphans but isn't afraid of making a whole lot more of them if people get in the way of her goals.

And I agree... I don't think Jon is a fit for AA/TPTWP/TSWMTW at all. If he's a prophetic character at all (he could end up being The Unchosen One), he's probably more in The Last Hero mold... the person not looking for war, but a way to end it... or he's a Noah type figure who gathers and preserves what he can of mankind to ride out the apocalypse and then rebuild the world once it has past.

My money would be on Last Hero figure, because there's something suitably deconstructive about a male figure being the one looking for a peaceful solution while a female figure is the one ready to spill Fire and Blood down on the world.

[TheWhiteDevil]

That is a fantastic work, OP. The research is all inclusive and detailed, I will have to read it more than once to get all of it.

I love how the number 3 happens to be so relevant in Daenerys's storyline. 

Mother of Three, Child of Three, fulfilling 3 prophecies.

I fail to understand those that claim Daenerys to be a Red Herring, her storyline is so beautifully crafter  and epic that to build something like that with no pay off would be like revealing Jon to be Ned's, except worse because we are not talking paternity here but journeys.

Stannis is a RH. Obviously.I love how people that have not read the books too deeply, immediately think about Jon as the perfect candidate to fulfil all prophecies, expecially after they learn about R+L=J.  iIt is not surprising, as it is usually the hidden "prince" the one to rise up to destiny. It is a trope and that is where the mind is used to go.

Except in this case the prophecy has been fulfilled by the end of book one. When there still wasn't any prophecy to fulfil, for my perspective this kind of writing structure is absolutely amazing.

Daenerys's journey is mysterious, ripe with secrets to uncover and conditions to meet. It has an epic quality other characters lack. Which does not make them less important, just different, take Arya's journey, her journey is ferocious and dehumanizing, she get colder than ice and sharp like a weapon, all edges. Sansa's journey is a labyrinth, walls made of lies and tricks, fake smiles, fake tears, while she acquires the knowledge and the means to play the game. Jon's journey is a long discovery, he explores the world and himself, struggling between desire, duty and guilt. Always feeling as it is sinful for him to desire, yet he rise in spite of destiny, birth and his induced guilt. Bran's journey is a constant "leap" and yet he cannot move.

These are just my views obviously. I do not claim them to be rappresentative of anything but me.

What I loved the most about the OP is that all research is rooted in the text. No crazy theories, no leaps, just research and documentation. 

I love so much that Daenerys is mentioned in the same context of the prophecy by Maester Aemon, in the fourth book, no less. On the final rush. I think it was an amazing moment of connection, every time I read it I get chills, It downed on me when it dawned on him. I must admit I missed all clues and signs before Maester Aemon spoke. Why did I miss them? Because they are woved so tightly into the fabric of Daeneris's story they were hard to detect.

I disagree on whoever claim Daenerys to be the obvious choice. She obviously is not as so many people claim her to be a "fraud"  or an attempt made by George to mislead the readers, there is no way in the world for "an attempt" to be written so beautifully and with such care.

[khal drogon]

On Monday, February 08, 2016 at 9:23 AM, Fire Eater said:

No, I think it would be bad storytelling to have the identity of AA revealed before the War for Dawn, and then just basically have the reader wait for it to happen. It just takes away the suspense and excitement of the reveal of AA.

Then that rules out Jon Snow too. In the fifth book, there is a line from Melisandre chapter that says "I pray for the vision of Azor Ahai, but Rh'llor shows me only Snow".Now this is not 'snow' but 'Snow'. That pretty much spells it out. Then there is his vision wielding a literal flaming sword. And Azor Ahai reborn is believed by everyone to wield a flaming sword and by this Martin wants us to think he is a Azor Ahai candidate and he can't get more literal than associating the flaming sword symbolism with Jon. So that makes him a red herring too. 

Then who may be Azor Ahai? Jaime? Sandor? Cersei?

[TheWhiteDevil]

I don't think revealing AA's identity, which Martin only did in book four and through a dying character, (if we suppose AA to be Daenerys) takes any suspense away in regard of the final conflict. If one thinks about it, revealing AA means little to nothing as no matter who AA is, he/she won't fight the Other alone.

IMO That is where the suspense is, in the the facts, the actual battle, not a title. Now we know Martin sees the Orhers as Ice and the Targaryen as Fire, it's a given Daenerys will be involved in the final battle as she is Fire, we also knows that AA is the Champion of Fire, another point for Daenerys. And would acknowledging any of this ruin the story or kill the suspense, she won't wave her hand and have the Others puff out of exsistence.

This is also why I think the Dragons to be Lightbringer, what is going to happen to them and who is going to ride them, that creates possibilities and uncertainties in the story not the fact that they might be of might be not Lightbringer.

Also the idea of AA being a single warrior wielding a flaming sword versus the Others's Army seems quite unrealistic to me, granted even in this case what would matter would be the story.

But what could a flaming sword do, maybe it turns into fire-wights anyone it kills, thus creating an army of fire wight to oppose the Others. 

That is just me imagining a possible scenario in which a magic sword could play a key role in Martin's universe, coherent to the motto that everything must come with a price. Expecially such a sword.

At the end of the day I still think it's the Dragons.

[teej6]

On February 7, 2016 at 10:43 PM, Mon ami said:

Actually this is another example of George planning and setting everything up.  I think the opposite.  Having anyone else become Azor Ahai in place of Dany would make for awful storytelling.   Dany makes sense for that role of Azor Ahai.  Throwing aside all of the evidence later on is just trying too hard to create a surprise.  It will ruin the story for me.  She is Azor Ahai.

Martin by his own admission does not "plan and set everything up." He has on several occasions described his writing style as that of a gardener who develops the story as it progresses and does not have everything planned out unlike some one like Tolkien.

[teej6]

5 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Then that rules out Jon Snow too. In the fifth book, there is a line from Melisandre chapter that says "I pray for the vision of Azor Ahai, but Rh'llor shows me only Snow".Now this is not 'snow' but 'Snow'. That pretty much spells it out. Then there is his vision wielding a literal flaming sword. And Azor Ahai reborn is believed by everyone to wield a flaming sword and by this Martin wants us to think he is a Azor Ahai candidate and he can't get more literal than associating the flaming sword symbolism with Jon. So that makes him a red herring too. 

Then who may be Azor Ahai? Jaime? Sandor? Cersei?

But unlike Benerro and Aemon declaring that AA is Dany, Melisandre does not declare or even realize that AA is Jon. We don't have any indication that she thinks anyone other than Stannis could be AA. And we have her POV. She is more annoyed that she sees Jon when she asks for a glimpse of AA or Stannis in her mind.