Could Tywin have poisoned Joff?

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I realize this probably qualifies as crackpot, but it was something I was thinking about while re-reading the Purple Wedding. 

The only word we have for it being solely a Tyrell/Baelish plot is Littlefinger's story to Sansa, and he definitely slips at least a few lies in there. The entire thing could have been a lie. It would suit him for the time being (and really, the Tyrells too) for Sansa to disappear for a while but consider herself indebted - or at least at the mercy of - them jointly.

This way they have an ace up their sleeve who will stay docile and controllable. I don't know if it's more likely to have been Tywin using them as catspaws with Margaery remaining (unmolested) queen and Sansa allowed to escape as payoff; or Baelish just took advantage of the timing to convince Sansa it was all his doing, but I could see him going either way. 

There was certainly no love lost between Tywin and Joffrey, and he must have seen the same thing so many others saw:  how much easier life would be if Tommen were king instead. Tywin would have also had at least a half dozen excellent personal reasons to want Joff to go away. 

There's really no question as to whether he COULD have physically done it, but WOULD he have?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

No. He wanted to cement that Lannister-Tyrell alliance as quick as possible and that required producing heirs and a Tommen-Margaery marriage is a number of year away from that.

So even if you believe that is he is capable of kinslaying his pragmatism would stop him doing it.

[Artos Cold]

[dariopatke]

He is not a kinslayer, if he is he would have killed Tyrion long time ago.

[Chilli]

I don't think Tywin poisoned Joffrey, but it's possible he knew or guessed who did it and did not want to accuse the Tyrells because they needed them. I've always found it strange he never searched for the poisoner and immediately followed Cersei in blaming Tyrion. It's not good for his house if his son is a murderer and a kinslayer. He had better said that Joffrey had choked on his pie and sending Tyrion somewhere far away (the north, Essos, ...).

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Chilli said:

I don't think Tywin poisoned Joffrey, but it's possible he knew or guessed who did it and did not want to accuse the Tyrells because they needed them. I've always found it strange he never searched for the poisoner and immediately followed Cersei in blaming Tyrion. It's not good for his house if his son is a murderer and a kinslayer. He had better said that Joffrey had choked on his pie and sending Tyrion somewhere far away (the north, Essos, ...).

That is a pretty big hint that Tywin jumped on the chance to finally rid himself of Tyrion by sentencing him to death. Not to mention that he, too, most likely believed that Tyrion did it. If that hadn't been the case he most likely wouldn't have gone through with the trial. And he certainly wouldn't have allowed the Tyrells to get away with regicide. I mean, pragmatism is well and good but if you allow them to get away with regicide they certainly will have even less scruples to murder you, too.

Not to mention that Joffrey's death was a huge stain on Tywin's honor as well as the honor of the royal family and House Lannister. He wouldn't allow anyone to get away with that. And in the wake of the Red Wedding and Tywin's previous dealings with the Reynes and Tarbecks the idea of arresting and murdering the entire Tyrell family at court (with Olenna, Alerie, and Margaery being publicly raped by the Red Cloaks) isn't a completely unlikely scenario.

War has become very nasty, and murdering the king is both an act of war as well as an act of high treason. And the hints that the entire family is complicit in that crime. Olenna arranged everything, Garlan most likely put the poison into the chalice, Margaery must have known to ensure she would not drink, and Alerie knew, too, because she was the first to come up with cover story #1 stating that Joff simply choked on the pie.

Hell, even Mace may have known. The man may actually only play at being not so bright, and knowing what was going on could explain why the hell he wanted Tyrion's head during the trial. Playing the role of the angry father certainly helped deflect suspicion from himself and his family.

[Ruhail]

No

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

Tywin did say he needed to teach Joffrey a "sharp lesson" not long before then, with no sharp lessons in-between.  I think it's possible, he's not the most pragmatic or reasonable of rulers and has let his anger get the best of him before - and if the curse of the kinslayer is true, he did end up dying to some poetic justice.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Nope.

If Tywin had had no qualms about kinslaying, he would have first killed Tyrion. Then killed Tyrion again, for a good measure, just to be safe and because Tywin was a big fan of disproportionate retribution. And then, maybe, possibly, Joffrey.

And since Tyrion is alive, then Tywin was no kinslayer, and did not have Joffrey poisoned.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

So Tywin had no kinfolk among the Reynes or Tarbecks?  Seems unlikely considering how often great houses intermarry with their vassals.  And Tywin had good pragmatic reasons for keeping Tyrion alive, since he was his only male heir that could inherit lands.  On top of this, Tywin repeatedly showed respect for Tyrion's abilities.  He also went to war over Tyrion's kidnapping, when he could have easily provoked his captors into executing him by sending a tavern saying Sansa had been executed.  Tyrion was a large part of Tywin's long term plans for ruling the North and was repeatedly given positions of power.  I think that, if Tywin did not care much about superstition regarding kinslaying, he still would have good reasons to keep Tyrion alive, while Joffrey was a danger to stable rule and personally insulted Tywin, and was much more readily replaced.

I also think that Tywin had no intention of letting Tyrion be executed.  He could have convinced Tommen to pardon him or send him to the Wall.  He could have manipulated Jaime into tescuing him.  He could have been coaching Shae on how to retract her previous statements and shift the blame for the poisoning to someone else.

Even if Tywin did not want to become a Kinslayer, there were many ways he could have made Tyrion disappear or put him in situations where his death would be certain.  That he didn't is a sign that Tywin wanted to keep Tyrion alive and close.  His cruelties to Tyrion did indicate he had mixed feelings about him, but were mostly Tywin using "tough love" to parent a troublesome but promising son.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I don't think we can definitely say Tywin could not be a kinslayer because Tyrion is still alive.  Every one of us is not a murderer until we kill someone...then we are. 

It struck me that, had Tywin not developed sharp pains in his own bowels, Joff's death certainly would have made life easier. Littlefinger says that if you toss Margaery, Joffrey and Loras into a pot, you have the makings for kingslayer stew. He and Olenna can't have been the only people astute enough to realize that. 

The last thing Tywin needed was a grandson who liked to make "how stupid is a Dornishman" jokes while he's trying to glue the kingdom back together. With Tommen he would have eight years to work with the future king instead of three (and wouldn't be starting with a child psychopath).  

With the act blamed on Tyrion, and probably Sansa so they gain control of Winterfell, Tywin could send Tyrion to the Wall.  I truly believe Tywin was going to do that anyway rather than execution, for Joanna's sake and to avoid the taint of kinslaying.  That gets his expensive embarrassment out of the way for good. If some outraged and patriotic citizen decided to murder the twisted little monkey demon, it would be sad but hey, stuff happens.

And if Tywin simply knew what the Tyrells and Littlefinger were going to do (how could Varys not have known?) but didn't actively participate, so much the better - he gets all this, plus information to help keep them in their places. 

He might also have believed that this would inspire Jaime to step up and do his duty as heir to Casterly Rock, and perhaps made a new marriage (with more - hopefully brunette - children) attractive to Cersei. 

[Ser Frasier of House Crane]

No, but I think he saw it as a blessing in disguise. Joffrey was far too erratic to control. Tommen is far more pliable and would've made things so much simpler. No risk of sudden beheadings on Tommen's watch.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

10 minutes ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

So Tywin had no kinfolk among the Reynes or Tarbecks?  Seems unlikely considering how often great houses intermarry with their vassals.  

I didn't mean some eleventh cousin six times removed, nobody cares about that.

10 minutes ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

 

And Tywin had good pragmatic reasons for keeping Tyrion alive, since he was his only male heir that could inherit lands.  

You mean only heir except for Joffrey, Tomen, Kevan, Kevan's sons, Tygett's son, etc., and that's if we aren't counting the girls? And as for Tyrion being capable of inheriting Casterly Rock, Tywin's own opinion seemed quite clear.

[Queen Alienor]

No. As others have said, if Kinslaying wasn't an issue for him, he'd have ended Tyrion long before the story even starts.

Also, I don't think that Tywin would have poisoned Joffrey at the wedding. The wedding was a big PR thing for the Lannister cause, basically a show of how rich and powerful and important they are. Joffrey being murdered completely ruined that. He'd have either offed him before or afterwards, possibly on a hunt like Robert or just in his sleep. No need to damage the Lannister reputation like this.

[Sullen]

No, Tywin might be a complete dick and a monster of a human being, but he has his own set of morals, with family ranking as quite sacred and important for him. (Despite him treating his children like shit)

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

If Tywin had no interest in keeping Tyrion around as heir to Casterly Rock, why didn't he just have him sent to the Wall?  Not only would it remove him from the line of succession, it would result in Tyrion being isolated and miserable, unable to embarrass his family further, and probably get him killed.  But he makes him Hand, then Master of Coin…even being in charge of the sewage system of Casterly Rock was something of an honor.

Tywin let Tyrion believe that he loathed him completely and would never let him become heir to Casterly Rock - probably because he saw how well Tyrion performed when trying to prove himself at the duties he was appointed to.  He knew that if Tyrion thought his position in the family was secure, he'd probably start taking it easy and keeping prostitutes around and behaving like, well, Tyrion.  Tyrion is still young, Tywin probably thought that Tyrion would eventually grow into prime leadership material, he had to have seen a lot of himself in Tyrion (especially if Tywin truly was into whoring).  He wanted Tyrion to eventually prove himself like he did with the Rains of Castamere.

[Little Lark]

I don't really think the Tyrells were even trying to frame anyone, I think they just wanted Joffrey's death to look like an accident. They'd just committed murder so even if they weren't going to be the top suspects, I doubt they'd want to put anyone on the alert.

As for Tywin, I think he'd been battling for a long time with his hatred for Tyrion so when a chance came to remove the son that so embarrassed him from his life, he took it.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I guess...it's not impossible? I mean, we know Baelish threw the Tyrells under the bus when he told Tywin about their plan to marry Sansa to Willas, so he could've sold them down the river a second time by telling him about their poison plot. 

But then Tywin's thought process was probably like: 

Option 1) I have the Tyrells questioned about the murder plot. They have no evidence of the poison on them because they gave it to the Stark girl. Mace gets pissed off and puffs up like an angry puff fish. They pick up their toys and go home and then Stannis gets another shot at destroying us, in the best case scenario. Worst case scenario, Mace joints Robb Stark and they destroy us. 

Option 2) I say nothing and let events run their course for now. Incompetent and impulsive Joffrey gets poisoned, ridding us from a liability. I seize the chance to get rid of Tyrion and name Jaime my heir. I keep the Tyrells on my corner until Stannis and the Starks and all these nuisances are gone, and then I show them that sooner or later a Lannister always pays his debts. 

Like I said, it's certainly possible, though I personally don't think so. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

LF is not the only word we have on it.  We have the Ghost of High Heart confirming that the poison was in Sansa's hairnet, and Dontos giving her the hairnet, Dontos bringing her to LF, and Olenna being the only person to touch the hairnet.