What could have eddard expected if Brandon lived?

[purple-eyes]

19 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said:

If he's got Ashara Dayne what else does he need!? Amirite fellas, amirite!

Kidding aside, I hope for Ned's sake that she wouldn't become too accustomed to the finer things in life like Lynesse Hightower did. It would be interesting to see how a man like Ned would deal with a situation like that. I highly doubt he'd be caught selling slaves... but what would he do?

Ashara is from a minor house, which is much poorer than House Hightower.

And House Dayne is inside a deep river vale within a big mountain, probably more rural than Winterfell.

So I guess she will not be like Lynesse, who lived most of her life in prosperous old town and within a super rich family.

Sure Ashara stayed in DS with Elia for a couple of years, but I do not think that will turn her into a gold digger. (maybe, but less likely)

 

honestly I like the pair of Ned and Ashara. A plain, nice and honorable man, and a super beautiful and popular wife.

Ned would have those sweet worries that how he can guard his incredibly beautiful wife from those bad men (including his own brother maybe)......

 

[purple-eyes]

I am wondering if Ashara marries Ned, maybe they will go to KL and serve Rhaegar and Elia?

By then Elia must be queen, so she still needs her ladies. And Arthur is there too. Arthur is also Rhaegar's best friend so he would likely become LC of KG after White Bull died.

Maybe Ned would get a position in court and Ashara would serve Elia. This is quite useful to the North too.

 

[bloodofthedragon1995]

1 hour ago, Tarellen said:

So let's say that Rickard and Brandon's exacuation never happened. Brandon marries cat as expected of him but eddard marries ashara dayne because to do right by her after he got her pregnant. So rickard dies a natrual death and Brandon according to westori law inherites the bulk of the estate. But what does eddard get? A ring a few tapestrys a lot of silver and a job from his brother. Or does he get a nice castle and a score of big fat manors to support himself and highborn wife?

I don't think that the north had castles and huge manors in abundance, it's a relatively scarcely populated area...

[Lord Ravenstark]

So let's say that Rickard and Brandon's exacuation never happened. Brandon marries cat as expected of him but eddard marries ashara dayne because to do right by her after he got her pregnant. So rickard dies a natrual death and Brandon according to westori law inherites the bulk of the estate. But what does eddard get? A ring a few tapestrys a lot of silver and a job from his brother. Or does he get a nice castle and a score of big fat manors to support himself and highborn wife?

I don't think that the north had castles and huge manors in abundance, it's a relatively scarcely populated area...

You would think that after twelve thousand years the Westerlands would be devoid of gold.

[JLE]

Look down a generation. Before he was crippled, what would Bran have expected to inherit from Ned?

Maybe a job at Winterfell. Something important, like castellan, or captain of the army - or possibly, if his intelligence were greater than his physical capabilities, chief adviser. (Three sons being rather a lot, there is a possibility that Bran could have ended up being sent to Oldtown to become a maester - which would still have left the question of what to do with Rickon.)

Or maybe, being given a smaller lordship of his own somewhere, a small keep to hold and a domain to manage. Possibly if this became a successful enterprise, it would end up as a larger keep and a larger domain, and perhaps the founding of a new "cadet branch" for the family, such as the Karstarks are now, and the Greystarks once were.

Or maybe even, marrying into a noble family whose name was in danger of dying out due to having only daughters, and allowing the children to take the mother's name to keep that family going. Such as the Mormonts (there are only women and the exiled Jorah left of that family, and some of the women are already giving *their* family surnames to their children and refusing to name the father): or, given that they were down to pretty low numbers already, a family such as the Cerwyns or Hornwoods.

If Jon had not taken the black, Ned would have had to find something for him to do as well. As a bastard, he might have ended up with a lower class of job (but still a worthy one) at Winterfell: but Ned raised him with the training of a lord, even though he would never be lord of Winterfell. Still, a family cadet branch with a slight change to the surname could just as easily be started by a bastard (e.g. Jon) as by a younger brother (Bran).

Ned had talked about wanting to repopulate the north of the realm: An obvious centre to start at, now largely abandoned but still with an existing castle, would have been Queenscrown: it's already near the road from Winterfell to the Wall. Especially after the omen of the wolves - Jon taking the *white* wolf, the one of a different colour - white is the colour of winter and of the north - therefore while Robb looks south, to the business of dealing with the whole kingdom and of alliances with other lords, Jon would look north, towards the Wall, and if he did not take the black himself, he would be the ideal person to front his "repopulate the Far North" project. And given his real parentage, Queenscrown would be a surprisingly appropriate place to put him...

[King of the Narrow Sea]

Quote

"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."

Swap Bran for Ned, and Robb for Brandon.

[purple-eyes]

7 minutes ago, JLE said:

Look down a generation. Before he was crippled, what would Bran have expected to inherit from Ned?

Maybe a job at Winterfell. Something important, like castellan, or captain of the army - or possibly, if his intelligence were greater than his physical capabilities, chief adviser. (Three sons being rather a lot, there is a possibility that Bran could have ended up being sent to Oldtown to become a maester - which would still have left the question of what to do with Rickon.)

Or maybe, being given a smaller lordship of his own somewhere, a small keep to hold and a domain to manage. Possibly if this became a successful enterprise, it would end up as a larger keep and a larger domain, and perhaps the founding of a new "cadet branch" for the family, such as the Karstarks are now, and the Greystarks once were.

Or maybe even, marrying into a noble family whose name was in danger of dying out due to having only daughters, and allowing the children to take the mother's name to keep that family going. Such as the Mormonts (there are only women and the exiled Jorah left of that family, and some of the women are already giving *their* family surnames to their children and refusing to name the father): or, given that they were down to pretty low numbers already, a family such as the Cerwyns or Hornwoods.

If Jon had not taken the black, Ned would have had to find something for him to do as well. As a bastard, he might have ended up with a lower class of job (but still a worthy one) at Winterfell: but Ned raised him with the training of a lord, even though he would never be lord of Winterfell. Still, a family cadet branch with a slight change to the surname could just as easily be started by a bastard (e.g. Jon) as by a younger brother (Bran).

Ned had talked about wanting to repopulate the north of the realm: An obvious centre to start at, now largely abandoned but still with an existing castle, would have been Queenscrown: it's already near the road from Winterfell to the Wall. Especially after the omen of the wolves - Jon taking the *white* wolf, the one of a different colour - white is the colour of winter and of the north - therefore while Robb looks south, to the business of dealing with the whole kingdom and of alliances with other lords, Jon would look north, towards the Wall, and if he did not take the black himself, he would be the ideal person to front his "repopulate the Far North" project. And given his real parentage, Queenscrown would be a surprisingly appropriate place to put him...

This sounds like a too-grand plan for a bastard in the given scenario. almost like a ruler of half North or another LC of new watch.

I would say this may go to Bran or Rickon if this will exist. Not Jon. maybe a legitimized jon, but Ned seems to have no interest in legitimizing him. Probably he does not want to create trouble for his own children as well as Cat.

The reason of "first son gets everything but second gets almost nothing" is that this will maintain the integrity of their estate and property.

Otherwise after a few generations, the single realm will become many small realms and in the end, get a lot of trouble and internal wars.

SO I think no matter what, Robb will rule directly over the whole North.

And Bran, Jon and Rickon will stay in his "court" and serve him, not become a very independent lord.

 

[King of the Narrow Sea]

7 minutes ago, JLE said:

Ned had talked about wanting to repopulate the north of the realm: An obvious centre to start at, now largely abandoned but still with an existing castle, would have been Queenscrown: it's already near the road from Winterfell to the Wall. Especially after the omen of the wolves - Jon taking the *white* wolf, the one of a different colour - white is the colour of winter and of the north - therefore while Robb looks south, to the business of dealing with the whole kingdom and of alliances with other lords, Jon would look north, towards the Wall, and if he did not take the black himself, he would be the ideal person to front his "repopulate the Far North" project. And given his real parentage, Queenscrown would be a surprisingly appropriate place to put him...

Making a bastard the Lord of the Gift instead of making an Umber, one of the various mountain clan lords, a Mormont, a Skaagosi, or a Karstark (all the families nearest the Gift and with the greatest interest in defending against wildlings), let alone over making one of the trueborn Starks it, would be an absolutely incredibly dumb move. The Gifts lands are huge, whoever's its lord would be enormously powerful. Making a bastard it's lord over all the other people who have a much better claim to the land is guaranteed offend everybody.

Jon was going to become some household guard, maybe a master-at-arms for somebody. At best maybe some landed knight with like 5 servants and a farm. Certainly not the Lord of the Gift lol.

[JLE]

I think you're misunderstanding. Whoever was in charge of the project of repopulating the North would still answer to Winterfell and consider them the overlord: they would not be equal to Robb, but would be in a position similar to the Karstarks, the Umbers, the Boltons, the Glovers. Not a mean position for a younger brother to find themselves in, and certainly better than being a courtier: but it would not diminish, or rival, the lordship of Winterfell which Robb would hold in his father's name.

Staying in court, of course, would be an option, but a lesser option, one to be taken only if you really can't find another worthy duty for the younger son to do.

Similarly, younger sons and descendants of the British monarch end up with various titles - Duke of York (Prince Andrew), Earl of Wessex (Prince Edward). In the modern day these are empty titles, but centuries ago, they would have meant something - without detracting from the position of the eldest son, Prince Charles, as Heir Apparent and future King.

King Henry VIII made his bastard, Henry Fitzroy, the Duke of Richmond. And, after Anne Boleyn fell out of favour leaving Henry with two daughters (by different wives) but no son, one of the options he considered (at the time when Anne was merely out of favour and there was a chance she would simply be sidelined or shunted off to a nunnery) was adopting Fitzroy into the royal family, although he never did so. In the event, Fitzroy died young, shortly before the execution of Anne Boleyn: and by then Henry was already preparing to marry Jane Seymour, who eventually gave him a legitimate son, Edward VI.

In the real world, that's one thing for the nobility have historically done with younger sons. Others would end up in the military, in the church, or sent to university to study a subject fit for a gentleman such as law or politics.

[Philokles]

I expect Robert would have offered him something too, if his rebellion still went ahead. Maybe a place on the Small Council and a proper preparation to succeed Jon Arryn as Hand.

[WhitewolfStark]

3 hours ago, house of dayne said:

how about lord of starfall with lady ashara? not so bad...

She has an older brother, Edric's father, who is specified as being older than Arthur and Ashara. So that's off the table.

[Ruhail]

Moat Caillin and a general rank in the winterfell army

[WSmith84]

As King of the Narrow Sea pointed out, Ned tells Bran that he will one day rule a keep in his brother's name. Presumably, Ned would do something similar. If the idea of repopulating the Gift worked out, perhaps Ned would be a lord there.

[purple-eyes]

10 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

As King of the Narrow Sea pointed out, Ned tells Bran that he will one day rule a keep in his brother's name. Presumably, Ned would do something similar. If the idea of repopulating the Gift worked out, perhaps Ned would be a lord there.

My question is that what type of keep this is.

Can it be passed to next generation? Does this mean bran will build a house for himself?

If so, does he need to rename as something like Karstark or Greystark to be distinguished from Stark?

Or call it Stark of XXX?

 

 

[WhitewolfStark]

I think all of you are overestimating what Jon would've gotten and misunderstanding what he ponders he might have had in ASOS.

Jon Snow wouldn't have been in any kind of overlord position in Ned's resettlement plans, if he'd been involved. He would have been one of many "nobles" holding a keep on the New Gift, and answering back directly to Winterfell. There would be no "Lord of the Gift", the Gift lands would simply be added to the amount of land the Starks held (which is basically what Jon says that Ned and Benjen hoped to convince LC Mormont to do by ceding back the New Gift to the Starks--more specifically to Ned himself). The land would become part of the Stark holdings, with second sons, bastards, and any others who wish to have a keep of their own to settle and do battle with the environs, choosing to settle there with likely Ned attempting to make it attractive in some manner. In truth, Jon, if part of this project, would more likely be on the level of a low-level landed knight, more on par with House Clegane of the Westerlands in terms of status, or the Baelishes prior to Littlefinger's social climbing experience, than a Great Lord like the Karstarks.

The Cleganes have a keep, a small amount of land on which there sits a village who support the Cleganes and the Cleganes theoretically "protect". That's about it. Petyr likewise gets a keep, a little bit of land with some smallfolk and a lot of sheep, and that's all that he has. That's about all Jon would likely get in such a project in the New Gift as well--bastard son of Winterfell or not. Until he gets a lot of smallfolk living there, and he repairs his keep and grows a village, he's going to be one of the poorer landed knights essentially. Perhaps in a few centuries, Jon's descendants through marriage and showing fealty and loyalty to Winterfell through military service and success, and defense of the New Gift against frequent Wildling incursions, could manage to increase their holdings in the New Gift so that they're as powerful as say a Squire Allworthy or a Squire Western (i.e. accumulating enough land to qualify for owning "half a county"). But that's a few centuries down the road--or if Jon's descendants are Littlfinger-like clever, a little sooner than that.

But yeah, all this talk about making Jon the "Lord of the Gift" or even having a "Lord of the Gift" in the first place is rather overblown and over-inflated expectations, by putting the cart before the horse.

[The Mountain That Flies]

You know, the romantic in me understands why so many people think Ned would been paired off with Ashara in this alternate timeline, but I just don't see it happening.

Assuming Lyanna lived and married Robert, Rickard would have used 2 of his 4 kids on his southron ambitions, and would need to tidy things up with his actual bannermen. Ned would have probably married Barbary Rywell (who I'm reasonably certain even says as much in Dance). From there he could have served in a number of capacities helping Brandon, and given his natural talents for leadership could have had a lot of authority at Winterfell.

Leading a repopulation of the Gift lands could have happened, but the only person who ever mentions this as a desire is Ned in the real timeline, and there's no indication Rickard gave a crap about those lands. I suppose it's possible Ned could have been sent to King's Landing to serve as a Northern representative on the small council. That would have fit with Rickard's known designs, although the state of the royal court in this alternate universe is anyone's guess.

[StarkofWinterfell]

Look at the Baratheon brothers.

Both Stannis and Renly had titles and castles and armies. 

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

You know, the romantic in me understands why so many people think Ned would been paired off with Ashara in this alternate timeline, but I just don't see it happening.

Assuming Lyanna lived and married Robert, Rickard would have used 2 of his 4 kids on his southron ambitions, and would need to tidy things up with his actual bannermen. Ned would have probably married Barbary Rywell (who I'm reasonably certain even says as much in Dance). From there he could have served in a number of capacities helping Brandon, and given his natural talents for leadership could have had a lot of authority at Winterfell.

Leading a repopulation of the Gift lands could have happened, but the only person who ever mentions this as a desire is Ned in the real timeline, and there's no indication Rickard gave a crap about those lands. I suppose it's possible Ned could have been sent to King's Landing to serve as a Northern representative on the small council. That would have fit with Rickard's known designs, although the state of the royal court in this alternate universe is anyone's guess.

Lady dustin was Brandon's lover, isn't it a little bit awkward if Ned married her?

I know this does not matter that much, but still it sounds strange.

Plus we know a soiled daughter is hard to find a good match, like Delena and Lysa.

Do you think Ned would accept this?

 

 

 

[purple-eyes]

58 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

Look at the Baratheon brothers.

Both Stannis and Renly had titles and castles and armies. 

Yeah, but they are king's brothers.

Actually, most of second sons in the book were not mentioned to have a keep of their own.

Like Oberyn, Kevan, Garlan, etc. they all served in the castle of their brothers.

I am thinking they also live there.

Garlan later got brightwater keep but it is a prize of war, so not very usual.

[starkwolves]

how about lord of starfall with lady ashara? not so bad...

This!!! Agree...