TheSnowInWinterfell Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 11 hours ago, LmL said: Hey there, welcome to the party! Yes, there's all manner of analysis to be found here, from fluffy fun stuff to weighty comparisons to classic literature and mythology. I've certainly learned a lot fro mthe community! Fresh questions, I love it! I suspect the Starry Wisdom people of perhaps creating R'hllorism, but it's only speculation. They may have something to do with the Faith of the Seven, which is all about the stars and whatnot. There are some interesting correlations between the two. Whatever the case, ultimately COSW and R'hllorists worship the same guy and the same magic. I think the oily black stones are magically toxic, yes. I suspect we might find out more about this in the future. ice dragons a real thing... I want to believe, and it's hard for me to think George won't put them in, since he loves them so much and they would really fit. I'd say I'm 50/50 on it. Ok, so I was just discussing this a few posts up this thread. I'll refer you to that. The very short of it is that his weapon may have changed hands, or he may have been redeemed or sacrificed. The sword may have been broken and reforged. I went back and read the posts you were talking about. I understand all the research you have done is absolutely fantastic and pertains to the story. It all fits. Im very confused as to how this will flip though and AA becomes the savior. Cant wait to see how this happens. I think the oily black stones may have the ability to send visions or dreams, maybe even be able to get humans to do things by sending these visions. Like the chunk in the Sunset Sea. I think it may be telling Damp-Hair what to do. I hope that Ice Dragons are a thing. Have you seen the one in the clouds in episode 508? (i know i know) In WoIaF, it says the church of Starry Wisdom is the religion is still being practiced today in port cities throughout the world. It would make sense if the Bloodstone Emperor's religion evolved into Rhlorrism. I look forward to continued conversations and reading more of your work. I read the first essay about the GEotD. Was there a Part 2? i 27 minutes ago, LmL said: A couple of ideas I have are: "the Darth Vader" - one final good dead at the end of a long life of evil, probably a sacrificial act the "did I do that?" - perhaps the crashing to comet into the mon thing was an accident. Perhaps AA was playing around with starry magic and just fucked up, straight out. Perhaps he came to Westeros to try to fix the problems he caused "the sun's son" - the LH is the son of Azor Ahai, atoning for his father's evil. I like this one a lot, I've seen a lot of potential foreshadowing for it the "knocked the fuck out" - Azor Ahai was defeated at Battle Isle, potentially even killed, only to be resurrected and see the error of his ways. Perhaps someone bodysnatched his corpse to use his magic, who fucking knows. the "broken swords can be reforged" - AA's black sword was broken and reforged, and somehow balanced or sanctified in the process. If Dawn is AA's sword, then this would be the ticket. AA's sword was black, yet Dawn is white, so if they are the same sword, there must have been a transformation, reforging, etc. Lots of broken swords in the story, including the Last Hero's. In this scenario, I'm guessing the King of Winter met AA with the original "Ice" of House Stark - that's the only thing that could break AA's dark lightbringer. Perhaps the two swords were melted down and combined, ice and fire, all that. I've seen some foreshadowing for this. Greatswords like Ned's Ice and Dawn contain enough steel for two swords, as we have seen. Perhaps that's the reason for these huge swords, because the answer to the Lightbringer mystery involves combining two swords to make one big badass sword. That would be 100% consistent with the very Lovecraftian vibe of the oil black stone. I definitely think George is giving us clues that people who sit on the Seastone Chair are changed, given the remarks made about Balon and the Grey King story of him growing corpselike. Man, I looked for it... they do focus on the clouds for a strangely long time... but I really don't see a dragon in there. But I'm still hopeful we will see one... like I said, it's kind of George's personal baby... the ice dragon is unique, something he thought up in a universe of borrowed ideas.. can't see how he wouldn't have it make an appearance. I'm of the opinion that more magical shit will be happeneing in the next two books, and that some people might be really turned off by it and think it's too much. There's this interesting phenomena where people who don't usually read fantasy have gotten into ASOIAF and there's this idea that's it's very minimalist on the magic - and it is, compared to high fantasy - but that's a bit of a misconception also, because George is simply very good at making magic seem realistic and gritty and so you don't notice it as much. But consider the following: shadowbabies - WTF. I mean, really, WTF. dragons / dragonriding - George makes this realistic by showing us how people who try to mount a dragon usually die in TPATQ and through Quentyn's experience, and props to him for doing so. That's what would happen. It's like trying to walk up to a Tyrannosaurus rex and pat him on the head. What's the outcome going to be? The fact that anyone can ride a dragon is miraculous. the Others - ice demons that have bones and blood but melt when stabbed with obsidian. They are probably 10,000 years old. Got it. skinchanging - human / animal bonding is one of the most common fantasy "tropes," and it's introduced early, so it doesn't really stand out too much, but we've seen with Varamyr and Coldhands and Bran / Hodor that it can go to some really freaky and weird places. Bloodraven - yeah. i probably don't need to go into that. all the freaking zombies - I know it's popular know, but... hey, how did George see that coming, anyway? He was planning to write a bunch of stuff about zombies way before the Walking Dead et al appeared... guy is a genius. Anyway, zombies, pretty magical. UnCat freaked people out - get ready for more of that. Glass Candles - we've only just gotten a taste. Marwyn is most likely bringing on to Dany, and then we'll see the real shit go down. Copious astral projection - skinchanging, green seeing, glass candle use, all astral projection. Anytime astral projection is involved, shit can get really freaky. And that's the stuff of high fantasy - soul jars, bodysnatching, remote viewing and communication... high fantasy The House of the Undying - pretty serious illusion / reality molding going on there. Toss in a side of psychedelics and shadow people... Squishers - and Deep Ones, Merlings, Sel;kids, etc - they exist. or at least they did. TWOIAF made that abundantly clear - their traces are everywhere. Aquatic humanoids of some kind - I don't know if they built anything or not, where there are from, if they are connected to the Bloodstone Emperor, what. I don't know. But I know they interbred with humans in several places, that's clear. So... fish people breeding with humans. That's freaky. "Dead things in the water" ight mean we will even see these fuckers. I tend to think Biter is part merling... and that's fucking frightening. Children of the forest - not only have they interbed with humans, but they are straight high fantasy. And I saw a cool theory the other day from James of Throens (who has a youtuibe channel) that the cotf are lizard people. Consider: cat's eyes - snakes and reptiles have them. Dappled or spotted skin - reptiles and snakes again. Black claws, three fingers and a thumb / 4 fingers - reptiles again. Living underground in caves? Lizard people. One of the cotf is nicknamed "scales." Why is that? Because they have scales? It's a strange idea, but it's hard to dismiss. So now think about Bran, in a cave in the dark, being fed his friend in a bowl, by lizard people. Aye carumba. Not sure if the paste is Jojen himself or just his blood, but I think it's one of the two. Giants - don't forget them. They are giants. Green men - I seriously doubt they are ordinary men who wear antlers on their head. We are going to see the Isle of Faces - George said so - and when we do, I have a feeling it's going to be really freaky. Faceless men - you noticed they cut Arya's face before they applied the new face, right? I mean what's going with that? Did they remove her face, or just slice it so they could bond the new face over her's? Seems like magic, right? What kind of magic is that? And of course the other person's memories and nightmares come with it... sweet. Jees, I didn't know it was going to be that long. I probably didn't catch nearly everything either. And we haven't even addressed the seasons or crashed any comets into any moons yet. We haven't been to Sothoryos or Asshai. I think my point is made - if we see an ice dragon or some squishers, nobody should say "this is stupid, what's George doing to this series, now it's all wacky." /tangent I think that fits with the GEotD being a maritime civilization who was based in Asshai but ranged all the way to Westeros. Like the Phoenicians, they built outpost fortresses offshore of places they wanted top conquer or trade with. Valyria did the same thing with Tyroish, Volantis, and Dragonstone. So it makes sense that their influence might be seen in port cities. Also, mariners have always been fans of astronomy based religions, because sailors need to know the stars to navigate the open seas. Bloodstone was actually a favorite of ancient mariners because of its association to the stars, I have read. I think Marwyn has been to Starry Wisdom Church: I wrote two follow ups to this: one based on the Church of Starry Wisdom and Valyria, the other on the Dothraki, Sarnori, Jogos Nhai, and a couple others. The formatting was a little screwed up in the forum switchover, so don't mind that. I'm glad you're enjoying all this material, I'm super fired up about it and so it's always awesome to see others get excited about it as well. I love how much George is doing behind the scenes - it's a great way to balance extensive world building with not bogging down the main story. And like really complex music or art, there's always more to be gleaned with a re-watch, re-listen, re-read, etc. OK, so Im still getting the hang of this whole Quoting thing, and i definitely haven't perfected it, but Im trying, so just bare with me. A couple of things I wanted to run by somebody, and you seem to be someone to bounce ideas off, so here i go, Ice was said to be a replica of some kind, a 'ceremonial' sword even, but I came up with an idea that its not. It is in fact the original Ice and I see you drew the same conclusion (kind of). Hiding it in the crypts and passing it off as Valyrian steel seems legit. and Maybe Ice was The Last Heroes blade. And he was a Stark. and Widows Wail and Oathkeeper will be reforged back into Ice. I like the idea that Longclaw could be Blackfyre. I dont remember if you touched on this or not (Ive been reading alot of essays recently) but could there be some hints to this in Longclaw only appearing in the story after Jon kills a wight, using fire, and the sword going to Jon afterwards. With garnets being used in the pommel... idk The FM and their magic. It seems to me that they dont remove Arya's face, but they might have. Regardless, it lends support to the whole Bolt-On theory which seems more likely every time i read through. The only thing I dont get is why Roose lets Ramsay build himself this terrible reputation if he plans on assuming his identity. (Maybe he knows whats coming from the North and doesnt think it matters at this point) With all of the reforging ideas that get thrown around, do you think that the Targ and Blackfyre lines could be "reforged" through a union of Dany and fAegon? i think Dany will be skeptical of anyone claiming to be a Targ (mummers dragon, cloth dragon on poles) but if he bonds with a dragon that could save him. The Daynes. WTF is up with the Daynes. I like your idea about "Dark Arthur" and "Dark Rhaegar" and Darkstar stealing Dawn and ending up in fAegons KG. But why would he give up High Hermitage and his lands? he would have to if he joined a KG. probably too many options for George to properly predict where he's going with the Daynes, but i definitely agree with your idea they are holdovers from the GEotD look near the highest point of the cliff. Maybe i see it because I want to, but it is reminds me of Drogon flying through Valyria when Tyrion and Jorah see him. Probably just wishful thinking on my part. LOL Theres lots more, I should probably take the time to organize my thoughts and pick one topic at a time and write my own essays. Im just really pumped to have conversations about this stuff as theres nobody in my life thats as big a fan of aSoIaF as me. Thanks for getting back to me. I totally agree that theres way more magic in the story than people realize. GRRM just gives it to us in ways that seem to make it more real thsn fantasy. Squishers. Nimble Dick is one of my favorite small characters. Cracks me up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted February 7, 2016 Author Share Posted February 7, 2016 4 minutes ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said: I went back and read the posts you were talking about. I understand all the research you have done is absolutely fantastic and pertains to the story. It all fits. Im very confused as to how this will flip though and AA becomes the savior. Cant wait to see how this happens. To insert your text in the middle of quoted text, just move your cursor to the end of a paragraph and hit return twice. Sometimes you have to hit return once, and then move your cursor into the black line and hit return again. 4 minutes ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said: I think the oily black stones may have the ability to send visions or dreams, maybe even be able to get humans to do things by sending these visions. Like the chunk in the Sunset Sea. I think it may be telling Damp-Hair what to do. I hope that Ice Dragons are a thing. Have you seen the one in the clouds in episode 508? (i know i know) In WoIaF, it says the church of Starry Wisdom is the religion is still being practiced today in port cities throughout the world. It would make sense if the Bloodstone Emperor's religion evolved into Rhlorrism. I look forward to continued conversations and reading more of your work. I read the first essay about the GEotD. Was there a Part 2? i OK, so Im still getting the hang of this whole Quoting thing, and i definitely haven't perfected it, but Im trying, so just bare with me. Now you know! 4 minutes ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said: A couple of things I wanted to run by somebody, and you seem to be someone to bounce ideas off, so here i go, Ice was said to be a replica of some kind, a 'ceremonial' sword even, but I came up with an idea that its not. It is in fact the original Ice and I see you drew the same conclusion (kind of). Hiding it in the crypts and passing it off as Valyrian steel seems legit. and Maybe Ice was The Last Heroes blade. And he was a Stark. and Widows Wail and Oathkeeper will be reforged back into Ice. I would say that if Ned's Ice is a 10,000 year old sword, it was Azor Ahai's black sword, not the original Ice. Original Ice in this case would be the white sword, Dawn, while looks like milkglass (the bones of the Others look like milkglass). I think perhaps the ToJ implies a parallel - the Icy lord of the north going south, taking the white sword to Starfall, and returning home with the black sword. Perhaps the icy sword went south to defeat the fire sorcerer AA, and the fire sword went north to fight the icy demons. The fire sword (AA's black one) was left at Winterfell in case the ice demons come again, the icy sword left in the south in case the dragon people come again... something like that. But that's pretty far-fetched, because Ned's sword is most likely from Valyria as we are told. This is one joy more favorite crackpot ideas, that Ne'ds black sword is the original LB. 4 minutes ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said: I like the idea that Longclaw could be Blackfyre. I dont remember if you touched on this or not (Ive been reading alot of essays recently) but could there be some hints to this in Longclaw only appearing in the story after Jon kills a wight, using fire, and the sword going to Jon afterwards. With garnets being used in the pommel... idk I tend to think Illyrio had Blackfyre and it is now with the Golden Company and fAegon. 4 minutes ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said: The FM and their magic. It seems to me that they dont remove Arya's face, but they might have. Regardless, it lends support to the whole Bolt-On theory which seems more likely every time i read through. The only thing I dont get is why Roose lets Ramsay build himself this terrible reputation if he plans on assuming his identity. (Maybe he knows whats coming from the North and doesnt think it matters at this point) Yeah Bolt-on is insidious. Sounds crazy at first.. then you think about it more. It has a chance to be true, i think. George has shown us body-snatching is possible, and hoe's written about it in other stories. We'll just have to see I guess. 4 minutes ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said: With all of the reforging ideas that get thrown around, do you think that the Targ and Blackfyre lines could be "reforged" through a union of Dany and fAegon? i think Dany will be skeptical of anyone claiming to be a Targ (mummers dragon, cloth dragon on poles) but if he bonds with a dragon that could save him. I like the general idea of reforging a sword applying to unifying houses. Jon represents this already. Not sure if fAegon and Dany will do that though, but I could see it. But most likely, I don't think Dany will sit the throne for long, if at all. 4 minutes ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said: The Daynes. WTF is up with the Daynes. I like your idea about "Dark Arthur" and "Dark Rhaegar" and Darkstar stealing Dawn and ending up in fAegons KG. But why would he give up High Hermitage and his lands? he would have to if he joined a KG. probably too many options for George to properly predict where he's going with the Daynes, but i definitely agree with your idea they are holdovers from the GEotD Hard to say, it's all speculative with Darkstar. Perhaps not a KG, but just a high lord in fAegon's court. Who knows. Either way, he's a political symbol for fAegon that he would jump at. 4 minutes ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said: look near the highest point of the cliff. Maybe i see it because I want to, but it is reminds me of Drogon flying through Valyria when Tyrion and Jorah see him. Probably just wishful thinking on my part. LOL Yeah... I dunno. I just can't quite see it. 4 minutes ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said: Theres lots more, I should probably take the time to organize my thoughts and pick one topic at a time and write my own essays. Im just really pumped to have conversations about this stuff as theres nobody in my life thats as big a fan of aSoIaF as me. Thanks for getting back to me. I totally agree that theres way more magic in the story than people realize. GRRM just gives it to us in ways that seem to make it more real thsn fantasy. Squishers. Nimble Dick is one of my favorite small characters. Cracks me up. Yes! Nimble Dick! I hate it when people complain about those chapters, I think they are great. He's hilarious, for sure. Great to chat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpion92 Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Personally, LmL, I do not see a point of looking for that old black sword of Azor Ahai. I think the "new" Lightbringer is right before our eyes. Jaime has all the foreshadowings of Azor Ahai as well as "black" sword nearby him next book: Oathkeeper. I imagine if Brienne brings Jaime back to Brotherhood without Banners, there is definitely some confrontation between Lady Stoneheart and these two. And I am also a big supporter of Red Wedding in Riverrun theory with Jaime sneaking Brotherhood inside the castle where Lannisters and Freys get massacred. Jaime is forced to watch and go along with the plan because Brienne is held hostage and might be harmed if he does not cooperate. Plus the fact Roose said to Robb prior the stabbing "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" just needs to come full circle with Lady Stoneheart and Jaime. Anyways, my point is this: what was the first phase of Azor Ahai sword forging? He tempered the sword in the water, but it broke. I definitely see association "water" with: Riverrun. Lady Stoneheart herself is dead "trout" whose body was in the river for several days before Beric passed the "kiss of life" to her. I assume now Lady Stoneheart's blood is running black just like Beric's and if she is resurrected by fire magic, then her blood will light up the swords in the same fashion.You get my point: Oathkeeper will light on fire by Jaime stabbing Lady Stonheart through, you guessed it, heart. Note also that I am a big believer in A+C=C+J, so Jaime stabbing Catelyn with Oathkeeper through her "stone" heart might give some beautiful meaning of "waking a dragon from a stone" prophecy. However, the way I interpret this Jaime stabbing Lady Stoneheart through her heart is following: I do not foresee three different phases of Azor Ahai prophecy fulfilled one by one, I think they will happen all at the same time. It is a VERY difficult concept to explain but I will try. I already told you that water component of Azor Ahai prophecy is probably House Tully and RIverrun. Jaime is playing the role of Azor Ahai here, and the sword he is forging is actually his oath - a promise to bring back Stark girls to safety given to "water" (Cat). And we know how so far Jaime fell short of that promise, therefore his promise is "broken" as per prophecy. Also, there is tempering by "lion" phase of the prophecy, and how the sword "split in half". It is a very juicy part and might have multiple meanings. We must keep in mind that Jaime is not the only one who swore this oath of protecting Stark girls. The other one is Brienne. So there is one way you could interpret the part of "sword (oath) breaking in half". I also see sword tempered by lion and breaking in half as a metaphor for protecting "two Stark girls" from a "lion" Cersei, who still is after these two. The main reason Brienne left King's Landing was to find Sansa before Cersei found her. Another way could be much more straight forward: the oath (the sword) was given by Jaime (tempered by lion) to protect two Stark girls which has fallen short so far (broke in half). Maybe you see it in another fashion, share your thoughts. And finally, "Nissa NIssa" part of the prophecy. Now, of course, Jaime is not Catelyn's husband, but he is playing the role of a husband with the sword Oathkeeper. Oathkeeper is one part of Ice, Ned Stark's sword, the sword of her husband. Now, I might be reaching here, but I believe before Lady Stoneheart rests in peace, she will give up hold on life knowing that her daughters are alive. How will that happen? I don't know. But if the part of NIssa Nissa crying in agony and ecstasy is true, then I foresee nothing else than "stone heart" becoming "human" again, even if for couple of seconds, and then leaving this world with joy on the lips. I mean, that is the least Catelyn Tully deserves in this story. I think after Jaime stabs Lady Stoneheart with Oathkeeper, and it engulfes in the flames, Brotherhood without Banners will witness this event as some kind of a miracle given that they are Red God followers and let Jaime and Brienne on their way to find Sansa and Arya. This time Jaime will mean to fulfill his oath for real. Of course there are many more storylines that will intersect with his (Darkstar, Daenerys, Tyrion, Jon, Bran, Cersei, UnGregor, etc.), but his main motivation till his death would be fulfilling the oath to Catelyn. So yeah, Jaime is one of my heads of the dragon that will "wake from a stone" and parallel Azor Ahai figure (two others are Jon and Dany if you are interested, which closes the circle of Lannister-Stark-Targaryen love triangle). His "salt and smoke" scenes with Roose and Brienne at Harrenhal, his oath to Catelyn, his failure so far to fulfill it, his future encounter with Lady Stoneheart, etc. Of course, there are several characters in this story that have Azor Ahai traits, but Jaime is definitely one of them. And one extra thought that creeped my mind? I think Jaime (and Sandor) will fight Robert Strong to protect Sansa (and maybe also Arya) with Oathkeeper (Brienne unfortunately falls). What will Robert Strong swing? I think Cersei will give him Widow's Wail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Cat Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Hi LmL. This is my first post in this forum. I started reading ASoIaF 9 years ago in spanish (my mother tongue), and have re-read it 4 times now, the last time in english. Since last year I'm also actively looking for theories and analysis in the fandom and I have to say: yours is the most astonishing I have read, right there on the top with branvas and bryndenbfish. I love your style, I love how you made me apreciate theese already wonderful books even more, I love how I read things differently now, with all the symbolism in my mind. I just wanted to thank you and give you some apreciation for your work, it's just awesome. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted February 8, 2016 Author Share Posted February 8, 2016 9 hours ago, Scorpion92 said: Personally, LmL, I do not see a point of looking for that old black sword of Azor Ahai. I think the "new" Lightbringer is right before our eyes. Jaime has all the foreshadowings of Azor Ahai as well as "black" sword nearby him next book: Oathkeeper. I imagine if Brienne brings Jaime back to Brotherhood without Banners, there is definitely some confrontation between Lady Stoneheart and these two. And I am also a big supporter of Red Wedding in Riverrun theory with Jaime sneaking Brotherhood inside the castle where Lannisters and Freys get massacred. Jaime is forced to watch and go along with the plan because Brienne is held hostage and might be harmed if he does not cooperate. Plus the fact Roose said to Robb prior the stabbing "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" just needs to come full circle with Lady Stoneheart and Jaime. Anyways, my point is this: what was the first phase of Azor Ahai sword forging? He tempered the sword in the water, but it broke. I definitely see association "water" with: Riverrun. Lady Stoneheart herself is dead "trout" whose body was in the river for several days before Beric passed the "kiss of life" to her. I assume now Lady Stoneheart's blood is running black just like Beric's and if she is resurrected by fire magic, then her blood will light up the swords in the same fashion.You get my point: Oathkeeper will light on fire by Jaime stabbing Lady Stonheart through, you guessed it, heart. Note also that I am a big believer in A+C=C+J, so Jaime stabbing Catelyn with Oathkeeper through her "stone" heart might give some beautiful meaning of "waking a dragon from a stone" prophecy. However, the way I interpret this Jaime stabbing Lady Stoneheart through her heart is following: I do not foresee three different phases of Azor Ahai prophecy fulfilled one by one, I think they will happen all at the same time. It is a VERY difficult concept to explain but I will try. I already told you that water component of Azor Ahai prophecy is probably House Tully and RIverrun. Jaime is playing the role of Azor Ahai here, and the sword he is forging is actually his oath - a promise to bring back Stark girls to safety given to "water" (Cat). And we know how so far Jaime fell short of that promise, therefore his promise is "broken" as per prophecy. Also, there is tempering by "lion" phase of the prophecy, and how the sword "split in half". It is a very juicy part and might have multiple meanings. We must keep in mind that Jaime is not the only one who swore this oath of protecting Stark girls. The other one is Brienne. So there is one way you could interpret the part of "sword (oath) breaking in half". I also see sword tempered by lion and breaking in half as a metaphor for protecting "two Stark girls" from a "lion" Cersei, who still is after these two. The main reason Brienne left King's Landing was to find Sansa before Cersei found her. Another way could be much more straight forward: the oath (the sword) was given by Jaime (tempered by lion) to protect two Stark girls which has fallen short so far (broke in half). Maybe you see it in another fashion, share your thoughts. And finally, "Nissa NIssa" part of the prophecy. Now, of course, Jaime is not Catelyn's husband, but he is playing the role of a husband with the sword Oathkeeper. Oathkeeper is one part of Ice, Ned Stark's sword, the sword of her husband. Now, I might be reaching here, but I believe before Lady Stoneheart rests in peace, she will give up hold on life knowing that her daughters are alive. How will that happen? I don't know. But if the part of NIssa Nissa crying in agony and ecstasy is true, then I foresee nothing else than "stone heart" becoming "human" again, even if for couple of seconds, and then leaving this world with joy on the lips. I mean, that is the least Catelyn Tully deserves in this story. I think after Jaime stabs Lady Stoneheart with Oathkeeper, and it engulfes in the flames, Brotherhood without Banners will witness this event as some kind of a miracle given that they are Red God followers and let Jaime and Brienne on their way to find Sansa and Arya. This time Jaime will mean to fulfill his oath for real. Of course there are many more storylines that will intersect with his (Darkstar, Daenerys, Tyrion, Jon, Bran, Cersei, UnGregor, etc.), but his main motivation till his death would be fulfilling the oath to Catelyn. So yeah, Jaime is one of my heads of the dragon that will "wake from a stone" and parallel Azor Ahai figure (two others are Jon and Dany if you are interested, which closes the circle of Lannister-Stark-Targaryen love triangle). His "salt and smoke" scenes with Roose and Brienne at Harrenhal, his oath to Catelyn, his failure so far to fulfill it, his future encounter with Lady Stoneheart, etc. Of course, there are several characters in this story that have Azor Ahai traits, but Jaime is definitely one of them. And one extra thought that creeped my mind? I think Jaime (and Sandor) will fight Robert Strong to protect Sansa (and maybe also Arya) with Oathkeeper (Brienne unfortunately falls). What will Robert Strong swing? I think Cersei will give him Widow's Wail. Dawg... I just wrote a long response to this that got eaten by the Westeros.org server. I'm out of time now but I'll repost later today. 6 hours ago, Flying Cat said: Hi LmL. This is my first post in this forum. I started reading ASoIaF 9 years ago in spanish (my mother tongue), and have re-read it 4 times now, the last time in english. Since last year I'm also actively looking for theories and analysis in the fandom and I have to say: yours is the most astonishing I have read, right there on the top with branvas and bryndenbfish. I love your style, I love how you made me apreciate theese already wonderful books even more, I love how I read things differently now, with all the symbolism in my mind. I just wanted to thank you and give you some apreciation for your work, it's just awesome. Cheers Well I'll just frame that and put it on the wall... mission accomplished! I started seeing and unraveling this hidden layer of the story and the main thing I want to accomplish is for everyone else to see it too and share in the cool-factor! Awesome! Now that you have your eyes trained for Martin's symbols, be sure to message me when you find a metaphorical scene, in case I haven't caught it yet. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Cat Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 On 8.2.2016 at 6:04 PM, LmL said: Well I'll just frame that and put it on the wall... mission accomplished! I started seeing and unraveling this hidden layer of the story and the main thing I want to accomplish is for everyone else to see it too and share in the cool-factor! Awesome! Now that you have your eyes trained for Martin's symbols, be sure to message me when you find a metaphorical scene, in case I haven't caught it yet. Cheers! Hey LmL! You surely have noticed this scene already, in the battle of the Blackwater. I was just listening to an episode of History of Westeros about Summerhall. . They talk about the battle from Davos´ perspective and try to make a correlation with the tragedy of Summerhall to guesstimate what happened. Now, while I was listening to this with my new LmL-Googles (TM), the passage metaphorically jumped onto my face. I don´t know how/where you guys manage to put quotes from the books in here, so I´ll just link the vid (The interesting bit starts at 1:18:00 and goes to 1:20:30): In this passage the Swordfish rips open one of the crappy ships Tyrion ordered to fill with wildfirepots."She burst like an overripe fruit, but no fruit had ever screamed that shattering wooden scream". So, we have the sword splitting and making the moon burst. We have the scream (paralleling the one from Nissa Nissa) It goes on: "From inside her, Davos saw green gushing from a thousand broken jars, poisoned from the entrails of a thousand beasts, glistening, shining, spreading across the surface of the water" This goes all in bolt, Again the image of a thousand meteors across the water/sky, the poison and "glistening" (oily black stone from Asshai anyone?). Even the guys from HoW are like, wow, beautifully written! `Nuff said. Now HoW go on about characters being represented by metaphorical names (ha!), which could be the case, but on a meta-level, this is clearly again the BSE-effing-things-up motif. Back on track, "Swordfish and the hulk were gone" (goodbye meteor, goodbye 2nd moon). Then we get people drowning (in the Blackwater- black tide) and some guys clinging to "bits of smoking wood". Finnaly, "50 feet high, a Demon with a dozen hands in every one a whip, and whatever they touched, burst into fire. He saw Black Betha burning" Again, flaming hands motif, the Black Betha carries the name of Aegon V´s queen (Amathist Empress?). Then the description of a ton of people dying (because meteors, just like honeybadgers, don´t care), ships going down (with curious names, including Red Raven) and "the Demon, eating his own" (reference to the BSE?). Sorry for the format, as soon as I find out how you people include quotes from the books I will be able to make more sensible posts. That passage really got me, and I just had to share it! Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 1 hour ago, Flying Cat said: Hey LmL! You surely have noticed this scene already, in the battle of the Blackwater. I was just listening to an episode of History of Westeros about Summerhall. . They talk about the battle from Davos´ perspective and try to make a correlation with the tragedy of Summerhall to guesstimate what happened. Now, while I was listening to this with my new LmL-Googles (TM), the passage metaphorically jumped onto my face. I don´t know how/where you guys manage to put quotes from the books in here, so I´ll just link the vid (The interesting bit starts at 1:18:00 and goes to 1:20:30): In this passage the Swordfish rips open one of the crappy ships Tyrion ordered to fill with wildfirepots."She burst like an overripe fruit, but no fruit had ever screamed that shattering wooden scream". So, we have the sword splitting and making the moon burst. We have the scream (paralleling the one from Nissa Nissa) It goes on: "From inside her, Davos saw green gushing from a thousand broken jars, poisoned from the entrails of a thousand beasts, glistening, shining, spreading across the surface of the water" This goes all in bolt, Again the image of a thousand meteors across the water/sky, the poison and "glistening" (oily black stone from Asshai anyone?). Even the guys from HoW are like, wow, beautifully written! `Nuff said. Now HoW go on about characters being represented by metaphorical names (ha!), which could be the case, but on a meta-level, this is clearly again the BSE-effing-things-up motif. Back on track, "Swordfish and the hulk were gone" (goodbye meteor, goodbye 2nd moon). Then we get people drowning (in the Blackwater- black tide) and some guys clinging to "bits of smoking wood". Finnaly, "50 feet high, a Demon with a dozen hands in every one a whip, and whatever they touched, burst into fire. He saw Black Betha burning" Again, flaming hands motif, the Black Betha carries the name of Aegon V´s queen (Amathist Empress?). Then the description of a ton of people dying (because meteors, just like honeybadgers, don´t care), ships going down (with curious names, including Red Raven) and "the Demon, eating his own" (reference to the BSE?). Sorry for the format, as soon as I find out how you people include quotes from the books I will be able to make more sensible posts. That passage really got me, and I just had to share it! Cheers Hooray, you got one! To quote text, you need the ebook version of the books, that's the main thing, then you can word search the passage you're looking for; highlight, copy, paste; and then highlight the pasted section and press the quote button at the top of the chat window. Presto! Yeah, there's so much going on at the Blackwater that I haven't dug into it too much with the exception of Sansa's moon blood in the last episode. But you've got the broad strokes, for sure - I like how the poison aspect is snuck in there too. I'm still trying to figure out what the green and orange flames mean, although I have some ideas about "turned" greenseers in this regard. But the swordfish and the green demon with flaming whips - bingo. Basically I started looking at this section way back when and there was just too much - my eyes were bugging out. I know I need to come back here... perhaps I'll do a big one just on the battle itself. Great job! You caught a couple details I missed - the ship names do seem notable. Is there a "Lionstar" in there, or Bobby B's fury? I know those ships exist but forget if they are at this battle. But yeah, eating his own - Azor Ahai reborn punishes everyone. I wonder if the Rat Cook story ties into that theme, since he eats his own as well. I'll have to think about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 There's a cool line when Davos is washed up on the spears of the Merling King - his sons and a thousand others had been burned or drowned to make a king in hell. That's Azor Ahai reborn, king of hell. The moon meteors were burned out of the sky and then drowned to make this king. The sun's sun and a thousand other second sons. Or a thousand Others, with their burning star eyes. The Others symbolism is just a cold version of the meteor shower, basically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Cat Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 26 minutes ago, LmL said: Hooray, you got one! To quote text, you need the ebook version of the books, that's the main thing, then you can word search the passage you're looking for; highlight, copy, paste; and then highlight the pasted section and press the quote button at the top of the chat window. Presto! Yeah, there's so much going on at the Blackwater that I haven't dug into it too much with the exception of Sansa's moon blood in the last episode. But you've got the broad strokes, for sure - I like how the poison aspect is snuck in there too. I'm still trying to figure out what the green and orange flames mean, although I have some ideas about "turned" greenseers in this regard. But the swordfish and the green demon with flaming whips - bingo. Basically I started looking at this section way back when and there was just too much - my eyes were bugging out. I know I need to come back here... perhaps I'll do a big one just on the battle itself. Great job! You caught a couple details I missed - the ship names do seem notable. Is there a "Lionstar" in there, or Bobby B's fury? I know those ships exist but forget if they are at this battle. But yeah, eating his own - Azor Ahai reborn punishes everyone. I wonder if the Rat Cook story ties into that theme, since he eats his own as well. I'll have to think about that. Thanks man Don´t have the e-Book version, just good ol´ paper. That book smell has someting to it... Roberts Hammer and Lionstar went to Dorne with Myrcella. Davos specifically mentions their absence as he is listing Joffs´s ships. The Ships that are mentioned as destroyed by the Demon are: Black Betha, White Hart (in the scene just before sh**t hits the fan, Black Betha had just succesfully boarded White Hart, maybe important, maybe not), Loyal Man, Piety, Cat, Corageous, Sceptre, Red Raven, Harridan, Faithfull, Pride of Driftmark and Fury (Flagship of Stannis, the most badass ship in town, well, not anymore). Kingslander and Godsgrace are mentioned as the "own" ships that the Demon is destroying. Interestingly while they are entering the bay, the Red Claw of Lord Celtigar is mentioned once, and then never again (I might be wrong though, should really be sleeping by now). Maybe the whole battle is reenacting/foreshadowing something. Those names are surely intentional, and the general religiously theme makes me think of the High Sparrow and his new gained military powers (thanks for that Cercei :/ ) Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 Ah! Lionstar and Robert's fury went with a moon maiden to Sunspear - that's the Hammer of the Waters. Robert is known for his war hammer, so we have a hammer, a moon maiden, and Lionstar (a star which came from the sun) landing at Sunspear, where the maiden promptly gets slashed across the face by a Dark Star. Nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blind Beth the Cat Lady Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I was mostly cool with this podcast/essay--high quality podcasting as usual, compliments to your lovely-voiced wife. :-) However, as I had feared, the moonblood section was very problematic for me. In general I feel that the theme of moonblood--healthy and normal menstruation--is quite different from the "black blood" motifs, which are ominous and often speak to darkness, disease, and burning. Rather than harp on that generality, though, let me just show you my specific issues with this section. I copied it all into Word and made notes in bold. Quote Sansa Stark Explains her Moon Blood Once again, I’ve buried the lead. This blood blooms we just saw aren’t the half of it, when it comes to bloody moon flowers. Consider: when a Westerosi maiden gets her moon blood, she is said to have flowered. When a maiden loses her virginity, when her “maidenhead” is broken and bleeds, she is said to be “deflowered.” It’s kind of a bad joke, but it’s great symbolism, and directly tied to the heliotropium flower / bloodstone concept. --These are very common terms, Martin did not make them up. Check out the very memorable scene of Sansa receiving her first moon blood in A Clash of Kings. She’s been dreaming of the riot at Kings Landing, and in the dream, the mob is tearing her apart, and that’s where I am picking up the quote: Then she saw the bright glimmer of steel. The knife plunged into her belly and tore and tore and tore, until there was nothing left of her down there but shiny wet ribbons. When she woke, the pale light of morning was slanting through her window, yet she felt as sick and achy as if she had not slept at all. There was something sticky on her thighs. When she threw back the blanket and saw the blood, all she could think was that her dream had somehow come true. She remembered the knives inside her, twisting and ripping. She squirmed away in horror, kicking at the sheets and falling to the floor, breathing raggedly, naked, bloodied, and afraid. George has given us a nice connection between the flowering / moon blood motifs and the moon maiden stabbing of the Lightbringer story by depicting Sansa’s flowering as a knife stabbing. The sexual violence implied here calls to mind the procreation / death dual nature of the Lightbringer metaphor. The “bright” steel “glimmers” and the blood is “shiny,” evoking Lightbringer, while the knife “plunges” and Sansa falls to the floor to evoke the falling bits of moon. --I would say this is not about Lightbringer. This is about the stabbing of the Amethyst Empress (with a sword that would become LB, but not in this part of the story), nothing about Nissa Nissa. Nissa Nissa was not afraid, she was a willing sacrifice. I am very much opposed to your idea that they are the same because 1) it takes away NN’s agency and 2) basically says that two female characters who die are interchangeable. Thanks but no thanks. Sansa’s dream of being stabbed, her fear, and her blood on the (stone) floor echo Dany’s fever dream of fleeing and being stabbed. Sansa even has an earlier dream of Ser Ilyn coming after her with Ice. So Dany has a fever dream of someone chasing her with a blade that can cause something more than death—a “magic sword”—while she is dripping blood on the floor. This dream is summoned by Dany’s loss of Rhago, implying the blood may be due to something related to child loss. Earlier in her story Dany’s brother threatens to stab her—specifically to cut her child out of her—not to kill the child but to take it. Much as the AE’s brother might have wanted to cut her child and legitimate heir out of her, and take it. An involuntary C-section would certainly lead to blood on the floor, and is perfectly in line with Sansa’s dream of her uterus being stabbed to ribbons. (Someone walking around after being roughly C-sectioned is about as likely as Lolys surviving let alone concieving after being violently raped 50 times in riot. Martin is not exactly an OB/Gyn.) In sum, Dany and Sansa, both associated with amethysts, both dream of being persued by someone with a “magic” blade and being stabbed more than once. This scene is about AE being robbed of her child, and by extension her reproductive agency, much as Sansa dreads being robbed of her own reproductive agency (and, in a sense, her future children as they would then be her enemy’s children, as AE’s son became her murderer’s son) by being forced to marry and bed Joff. The Lightbringer symbolism continues through the scene: Madness took hold of her. Pulling herself up by the bedpost, she went to the basin and washed between her legs, scrubbing away all the stickiness. By the time she was done, the water was pink with blood. When her maidservants saw it they would know. Then she remembered the bedclothes. She rushed back to the bed and stared in horror at the dark red stain and the tale it told. All she could think was that she had to get rid of it, or else they’d see. She couldn’t let them see, or they’d marry her to Joffrey and make her lay with him. Snatching up her knife, Sansa hacked at the sheet, cutting out the stain. If they ask me about the hole, what will I say? Tears ran down her face. She pulled the torn sheet from the bed, and the stained blanket as well. I’ll have to burn them. She balled up the evidence, stuffed it in the fireplace, drenched it in oil from her bedside lamp, and lit it afire. Then she realized that the blood had soaked through the sheet into the featherbed, so she bundled that up as well, but it was big and cumbersome, hard to move. Sansa could get only half of it into the fire. She was on her knees, struggling to shove the mattress into the flames as thick grey smoke eddied around her and filled the room, when the door burst open and she heard her maid gasp. Starting from the beginning of this section, we see the bloody moon maiden immersing herself and creating bloody water, matching the bloodstone association with a bloody stone submersed in water and the idea of a moon maiden drowning. --She doesn’t immerse herself in the water, she’s using a cloth and basin, not a tub. A bit later in this scene, Sansa again washes herself in a tub of “scalding hot water,” evoking the moon drowning again, and it seems notable that the TWOIAF version of the Qarthine origin of dragons story says the moon was “scalded” by the sun’s heat. I wouldn’t base an entire theory on one word connection like this, but since it fits with all the other symbolism, I’m inclined to think the word “scalding” is chosen intentionally, but who knows. --What other word would you use to describe very hot water? Next we see a dark red stain, which is cut out from the sheet, leaving a hole. Sounds very like a bloody moon which was cut out of the sky, leaving a hole, as we just saw with the black hole moon. The bloody sheets and blankets are then balled up, to make them more moon-like I suppose, --Or to make them fit in the fireplace? before being shoved in the fire. That’s blood and fire, our favorite recipe. Next, the burning of the moon blood fills the room with thick grey smoke. This seems like a pretty clear allusion to the smokey haze which caused the sun to be hidden during the Long Night, a smoke that came from a burning and bloody moon which was cut out of the sky. Last but not least, we hear a maid gasp, which seems a likely shout-out to moon maiden Nissa’s Nissa’s scream of anguish and ecstasy which left a crack across the face of the moon. Just in case you were wondering whether or not the astronomical symbolism ever manifests in the form of food symbolism… I’d have to say yes. When Sansa gets cleaned up, she dines with Cersei, who serves her porridge and milk (ok, no big deal) as well as boiled eggs (oh my) and crisp fried fish (dun dun dun). The boiled eggs suggest eggs which are both heated and submersed, like dragon’s eggs meteors which land in the sea – the sea dragon. A dragon which swims in the sea is a kind of fish, as I mentioned last time while discussing the fishy nature of dragons in Chinese mythology, so fried fish again gives us a burning sea dragon. Even better, or worse as it may happen, the sight of the food makes Sansa feel ill, a reference to the poisoning of the moon and snake venom. Looking at sea dragons makes moon maiden Sansa feel sick, as well it should. The sea dragon is really the same image created by moon maiden Sansa taking a bloody bath – drowning moon meteors. --I think you’re reaching here. The eggs are submersed whole and remain whole. Not to say eggs can’t represent moons, but here they do not seem to represent a destroyed moon crashing to the ocean in bits. That would be more like an egg cracking by accident and it’s shell bits getting into and ruining some other food/drink. As there is no caviar or roe present the egg/fish connection seems weak. Being on your first period puts your stomach off, as, presumably, does being forced to dine with you future domestic rapist’s mother. To finish up here, George seems to be making a point about the dark nature of Lightbringer. First, here’s a mention of the smoke having ruined Sansa’s clothing. The moon’s clothing would be her crust, her outer shell, and it is from here that we would get the stony meteors. These are the poisoned and poisonous black bloodstone meteors, which are all about defilement and corruption, and so Sansa’s clothing being ruined by the smoke seems a reference to this idea. Then there’s this exchange with Cersei, after Sansa refuses the sea dragon food: “I don’t blame you. Between Tyrion and Lord Stannis, everything I eat tastes of ash. And now you’re setting fires as well. What did you hope to accomplish?” Sansa lowered her head. “The blood frightened me.” “The blood is the seal of your womanhood. Lady Catelyn might have prepared you. You’ve had your first flowering, no more.” Sansa had never felt less flowery. The moon blood frightens, --Not the blood itself, Sansa is partially lying to Cercei—the dream of being stabbed and the prospect of being forced to wed Joff are what frightens her. and Sansa doesn’t feel flowery – more reference to the ominous nature of Lightbringer’s forging. --Again, I don’t see this Sansa chapter as being about Lightbringer. The moon is setting fires, and Azor Ahai stand-in King Stannis is also filling the air with ash as he lays siege to King’s Landing with his fiery heart. --That much we agree on. Again and again, we are being told that moon burning brings smoke and ash, that Lightbringer-wielding dudes bring smoke and ash. --Agree with the latter. We are being shown that poison and sickness and corruption come with these moon meteors which represent Lightbringer. The chapter closes with a fantastic ramming home of these points: Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease. Do you want to be loved, Sansa?” “Everyone wants to be loved.” “I see flowering hasn’t made you any brighter,” said Cersei. “Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same.” It’s a wonderful expression of the duality of the Lightbringer myth: love is poison. --No…love, poison, and amethysts are a bundled package, certainly, but they are an AE package and not part of the story of AA, NN, or Lightbringer. Sansa is an AE stand-in in this chapter—and I would argue that in many ways Cercei is also an AE iteration, though in different ways—but enough to know the nature of love and poison. AA is a looming presence in these scenes, certainly, with the references to Stannis and the burning and ash everywhere. But they’re peripheral and not the point of the allegory that’s taking center stage. Compare that to the poison kisses flowers which we saw a moment ago. Birth and death, bloody beds and bloody battle, bloody swords and bloody cocks, sex and swordplay. The sun loved the moon, and also poisoned the moon. --First AE and NN are the same, now stabbing and poisoning are the same? I think you’re mixing your allegories. And the moon’s flowering hasn’t made her any brighter – no, quite the opposite. I love that line. The flowering of the second moon brought darkness, fire, and blood. That’s one of the fun parts of following George’s mythical astronomy – he leaves these little inside jokes which you only get if you understand the astronomy side of things. George wrote these jokes years ago, almost two decades in some cases, and here we are chuckling at them. Recappping the chain of symbols in this scene, moon maiden Sansa “had the knives inside her,” which is very like having the “fire inside you.” --Now fire and knives are the same? When Mel has the fire inside of her it’s very much consensual and does not scare her; quite the opposite. It makes her feel empowered, with equal parts (welcome) pain and pleasure. Mel is a great Nissa Nissa echo. And very different from Sansa, our AE in this chapter. Those bright glimmering knives tore at her insides and triggered the moon blood, --That’s backwards; the moonblood—and deep knowledge of its consequences--triggered the dream of the knives. Periods can’t be brought on by dreams. Plus we have her first cramp well before this. which creates a bloody bed. The bloody moon maiden then immerses herself in water, creating the sea dragon moon meteor motif. Sansa cuts the dark red moon blood out of the bed, leaving a bloody hole, --The hole is not bloody. then balls up the moon blood, coats it with oil – there’s a tremendous oily black stone reference – and burns it, filling the air with thick grey smoke. I must admit, it feels funny to say “look, George was giving us the answer to the Long Night all along in this scene about Sansa’s period,” but yeah, there it is. I’m officially making that claim. If you want to understand the moon blood and the Long Night, you have to ask Sansa. There’s actually some really great set-up for this whole scene earlier in the chapter which simply adds to the richness of this metaphor. I skipped over it before so that I could get right to the point with the flowering, but having done so, let’s go back the night before Sansa has her terrifying dream and burns all her sheets and caused a Long Night: Turning back to the stair, Sansa climbed. The smoke blotted out the stars and the thin crescent of moon, so the roof was dark and thick with shadows. Yet from here she could see everything: the Red Keep’s tall towers and great cornerforts, the maze of city streets beyond, to south and west the river running black, the bay to the east, the columns of smoke and cinders, and fires, fires everywhere. Soldiers crawled over the city walls like ants with torches, and crowded the hoardings that had sprouted from the ramparts. Sansa the heliotrope moon “turns,” and then Stannis’s smoke blots out the stars and the.. wait, was that a thin crescent moon? Right before all the moon blood? And what’s this about the black water? I kid, but of course this is densely packed symbolism, yet it is familiar to us. The moon sacrifice symbol appears with the smoke that blots out the stars and fires everywhere. As a result, the top of the tower – where Sansa the moon maiden is, looking down on the world like a goddess – is now thick with shadow. --Or like a highborn woman, wanted for her claim and ability to produce a powerful heir, looking over a darkening world from the top of a castle where she is trapped. Like the AE before her murder. Next, Sansa sees three catapults – think of the three heads of the dragon motif applying to moon meteors, since catapults are for flinging rocks. They don’t make Sansa feel “any less fearful,” however, just as the moon blood frightens Sansa. Then, we get this: A stab went through her, so sharp that Sansa sobbed and clutched at her belly. She might have fallen, but a shadow moved suddenly, and strong fingers grabbed her arm and steadied her. That’s all pretty clear moon maiden stuff – Sansa is atop the tower, she sees the crescent moon blotted out, gets stabbed and cries, and then we see the idea of falling implied, just as we saw with the rumor that Sansa turned into a winged wolf and flew out of the tower after the purple wedding. --I’m not sure I would equate falling with flying to freedom. Although the idea of Sansa becoming the “winged wolf” flying to freedom very much echoes Dany’s dream of (AE) escaping a more-than-murder by sprouting dragon wings and flying away. Especially as it happens right after an event connecting amethysts and murder. When this happens, a shadow moves suddenly. In this scene Sandor is saving Sansa from falling, but that seems more a part of the logistics of the scene than anything metaphorical. --Actually it plays into the allegory of the maid and her knight. Sandor isn’t a technical knight but in regards to Sansa he is a “true knight,” especially in this scene as he saves her. The AE is murdered in part because her knight (the Sapphire Knight of many unsolicited Blind Beth comments) is not there to protect her. Sansa in many ways avoids the deadly fate of the AE because her “knight” is present. Sandor saving her from a deadly end after a “stab”—espeically under the sacrificial sickle moon--forshadows Sansa having a better fate than the AE despite being an echo of her. All of this may further foreshadow Sansa eventually coming under the protection of true sapphire “knight” Brienne. The actual moon did fall – we know that – even though it’s only an almost-fall in this scene. But a paragraph or two later, there’s more metaphor: “You were glad enough to see my face when the mob had you, though. Remember?” Sansa remembered all too well. She remembered the way they had howled, the feel of the blood running down her cheek from where the stone had struck her, and the garlic stink on the breath of the man who had tried to pull her from her horse. She could still feel the cruel pinch of fingers on her wrist as she lost her balance and began to fall. She’d thought she was going to die then, but the fingers had twitched, all five at once, and the man had shrieked loud as a horse. When his hand fell away, another hand, stronger, shoved her back into her saddle. The man with the garlicky breath was on the ground, blood pumping out the stump of his arm, but there were others all around, some with clubs in hand. The Hound leapt at them, his sword a blur of steel that trailed a red mist as it swung. When they broke and ran before him he had laughed, his terrible burned face for a moment transformed. --The burned face is transformed—hinting at the Hound briefly standing in for someone related to ice rather than fire. I.e. the sapphire knight. Or at least that by coming to Sansa’s defence he is beginning to transform into a true knight rather than a self-percieved beast. Sansa narrowly escapes a fall many times in her story, generally with the help of a protector. Even when she risks falling from the stone bridge coming down from the Eerie, she notes that the wind howls like a wolf, implying that Lady’s spirit may be guarding her—or at least that she draws strength from Lady’s memory. Other times she is saved by Sandor or Littlefinger. Not perfect guardians but who is, really. This is some great stuff here, because the one who pulls down the moon maiden gets his hand chopped off – that’s our fiery hand of R’hllor, whose fingers are like fiery spears. I listed some of the relevant burned hands earlier when we talked about the leaves of the weirwood being either bloody hands or bits of flame, and this is more of the same. Right before the hand pulls her down, she is struck by a rock, and bleeds. The blood runs down her cheek, evoking the bloody tears. She’s even wearing a moonstone hairnet in this scene, which parallels the poison amethyst medusa hairnet she wears at the purple wedding, when Sansa kills the solar king she was supposed to marry. It’s pretty much all there – the moon maiden stuff is really vivid in this chapter. I think this scene makes the relationship between Sansa and the Hound clear – after Sansa almost falls, again, the Hound appears, again. I think the Hound, who was a shadow earlier on top of the tower, represents Azor Ahai reborn, the child of son and moon death. In this memory of the riot, the Hound has a transformed, burned face and a blurry sword that trails a red mist, a perfect match for Azor Ahai reborn and Lightbringer. A sword trailing blood makes us think of the bleeding star, the red comet, whose tail is perceived as a trail of blood. The red mist coming from a sword also ties in to the rain of blood motif, which we saw with the Doom’s rain of black blood and the Valyrian steel sword “Red Rain.” This is another nice link between Lightbringer and Valyrian steel – many of the names of Valyrian steel swords seem to describe Lightbringer and it’s effects, such as Red Rain, Nightfall, Blackfyre, Heartsbane, Brightroar, Orphanmaker, and Longclaw, while others seem to describe the sacrificed moon, such as Dark Sister, Lady Forlorn, Widow’s Wail, and Lamentation. The red mist trailing from the Hound’s sword also implies the boiling and steaming blood which is the hallmark of Lightbringer transformation, just as we saw in Dany’s dragon dream of fire transformation where her blood turns to steam or when Azor Ahai fought a monster and boiled its insides. Remember also that the bloody skulls in Mel’s visions dissolved into mist. And here, the Hound’s fiery face is transformed, just to re-emphasize the fire transformation aspect of the Lightbringer process. Thinking again about the hand which tries to pull Sansa down, notice that when the bloody hand goes away, the Hound’s stronger hand replaces it – just as Azor Ahai reborn replaces Azor Ahai. Sansa starts out riding a chestnut mare – a reddish horse, in other words – but the Hound puts Sansa on a black horse, symbolizing the transformation of the moon into those black moon meteors, and paralleling another moon maiden with a black mount, Dany with Drogon. Even better, the horse is called Stranger, and the Stranger of the Faith of the Seven is called “the wanderer from far places,” which is of course a way of describing a comet, a wandering star from far places. One that is a messenger of death, like the Stranger and like the ravens. I think all of these clues make it easy to identify Sandor in these scenes. George is using Sansa as the moon maiden, and the Hound as the reborn solar warrior. He’s a hellhound, basically, which like the poison snake, is one aspect of Lightbringer and Azor Ahai reborn. It’s interesting to think about the hellhound as a guardian of the moon, or as an agent of vengeance – Sandor fills both of these rolls for Sansa. We’ll talk more about the Stranger and about hellhounds in the future, but let’s stick with bloody moon flowers for now. --His resting persona is “hellhound,” but the transformation means he is becoming something else. It may seem odd to suggest that Sansa is playing the role of Sandor’s mother… until you consider the song she chose to sing for him the night he fled from King’s Landing: “Gentle mother, font of mercy, save our sons from war we pray…” Sandor’s appearance in that scene is consistent with Azor Ahai reborn: he is burned of course, he has an iron grip, and he reeks of “blood, blood, blood.” --Yes, she is. Which implies that the Amethyst Empress was Azor Ahai’s mother—so definitely not Nissa Nissa. AA having been bloodily cut out of his mother and raised by the BSE as his own—reborn in a new identity; “transformed” as Sandor is when he defends Sansa. I’m ok with Sandor playing both the sapphire knight and AA. I agree he reeks of AA in this particular scene. Which makes a very touching scene of the AE offering mercy to AA—posthumously, one presumes. Which supports the idea of her soul being retained somewhere after her bodily death. Maybe something like how Lady Joanna appears to Jaime. George is also using the description of Sansa’s tower room and the scene outside to slip us Long Night clues. When she enters the room, it is “as black as pitch,” and then as she rips back the drapes, she sees that the “sky was aswirl with glowing shifting colors, the reflections of the great fires below,” and also “aswirl with fire” as men died “in their hundreds and their thousands.” The orange and green flames “warred against each other,” with each “birthing armies of short-lived shadows to die again an instant later.” Then we read that “the air itself smelt burnt,” like a soup kettle “left on the fire too long and all the soup boiled away.” Soup kettles are black iron in medieval life, so that’s black iron having its contents boiled away to make the atmosphere smell burnt. --Oh yeah, this is 100% Long Night references. Just like Sansa’s scalding bath and the boiled eggs she was offered, this is talking about boiling and scalding the moon. I’ll pick up the text again here, because it’s just too good to summarize: Then something stirred behind her, and a hand reached out of the dark and grabbed her wrist. Sansa opened her mouth to scream, but another hand clamped down over her face, smothering her. His fingers were rough and callused, and sticky with blood. “Little bird. I knew you’d come.” The voice was a drunken rasp. Outside, a swirling lance of jade light spit at the stars, filling the room with green glare. She saw him for a moment, all black and green, the blood on his face dark as tar, his eyes glowing like a dog’s in the sudden glare. Then the light faded and he was only a hulking darkness in a stained white cloak. “If you scream I’ll kill you. Believe that.” He took his hand from her mouth. Well, it look alike George found a way to slip the black blood in there, as the Hound’s blood is as dark as tar. His eyes glow like a dog’s eyes – like a fiery hellhound’s eyes, I would say. “Then the light faded, and he was only a hulking darkness” – that’s pretty great right there – Lightbringer is a hulking darkness. Sandor was a quick moving shadow atop the tower earlier, and in this scene his hand comes from the dark as well. I mentioned that earlier Sandor’s has an iron grip, so let’s consider all the descriptions of his hands – they are covered in blood, they are like iron, and they reach out of the shadow. Blood and night and steel, the familiar motif. Sandor’s stained white cloak might refer to the idea of Lightbringer the sword being white hot and the comet being white and blue before the forging in the heart of the moon maiden, and the idea of Dawn representing an undefiled Lightbringer sword. In any case, it effectively communicates the idea of Lightbringer being soiled and stained and defiled. The threat to kill the moon maiden goes along with the idea of her screaming, just as Nissa Nissa’s cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon. --...no, Nissa Nissa screamed because she was stabbed. There were no threats or fear involved. There are some greenseer ideas here I am not ready to dive into yet, but take note of the swirling lance of jade light that is spit at the stars – this could be a reference to the idea of greenseers calling down the Hammer of the Waters. Renly’s stag on his golden crown is made of jade – the colors of Highgarden – and therefore evoke the idea of Garth the Green, who might have had antlers on his head like a stag, an image which is recreated when one of the Baratheons dons their antlered helm. --Agreed. There’s just a bit more to quote from this scene: The Hound laughed. “I only know who’s lost. Me.” He is drunker than I’ve ever seen him. He was sleeping in my bed. What does he want here? “What have you lost?” “All.” The burnt half of his face was a mask of dried blood. “Bloody dwarf. Should have killed him. Years ago.” --This will be especially poingniant if my prediction of Tyrion as a Bloodstone Emperor figure comes to fruition. (He does have the younger, envious, potentially murerous brother thing going on.) Later readers may nod hard at this and say “yeah you really should have.” And it may match with the idea of a repentant AA realizing the treachery of the BSE and wishing he’d killed him long ago, before AA could be roped into this mess. “He’s dead, they say.” “Dead? No. Bugger that. I don’t want him dead.” He cast the empty flagon aside. “I want him burned. If the gods are good, they’ll burn him, but I won’t be here to see. I’m going.” --Hm, maybe red priests’ obsession with burning kingsblood relates to an endgame AA’s desire to burn the BSE. Azor Ahai reborn is the wanderer from far places, or the red wanderer. --Yes, I agree AA aligns with the Smith, but all of the Seven have “starry wanderer” counterparts. I don’t think AA correlates to the Stranger. Actually I think that’s the sapphire knight, who is also played by Sandor, so Sandor also correlates to the Stranger but AA doesn’t correlate to the Stranger, just both of them to Sandor. (Simple enough, right? Lol) Sandor, accordingly, is lost, and has lost all. I think this is consistent with the idea that being Azor Ahai reborn is not necessarily great deal of fun, as Jon discovered in his Azor Ahai dream, where he feels abandoned and alone. --(insert “I agree” emoji here) The highlight of this part is that Sandor was sleeping the bed of the moon maiden. This is a direct parallel to the idea of Jon Snow emerging from Lyanna’s bed of blood. The bed was even specifically made into a burning moon blood symbol when Sansa bled upon the bed – making it a bloody bed – and then burned it. And again, all this at the top of a tower. The Hound’s face is a mask of dried black blood, which sounds a lot like Beric’s face, which was called a “death mask,” or like Quaithe’s red lacquer mask. Tyrion, of the likely heads of the dragon, gets a shout out here as a bloody dwarf that Sandor wants to see burn. Sansa thinks he’s dead, then Sandor says no, implying resurrection or an undead state. Tyrion has a symbolically rich dream of being dead after he’s knocked unconscious in this battle, but we don’t have time for that here. If Tyrion is in fact half Targaryen, and that’s a theory I tend to believe in, he’s part lion and part dragon, a perfect solar symbol. His green and black eyes might be referring to the same motif that Sandor’s momentary green-and-black appearance we saw a moment ago refers to. When Renly was killed in the tent by Stannis’s shadowsword, it was described as black on green. The targaryen civil war was the blacks vs. the greens. I think I know what all of this means, but I’ll have to save it for another time. I’d like to thank my fellow blogger Sweetsunray of the Mythological Weave of Ice and Fire blog for the tip-off about this earlier part of Sansa’s moon blood chapter atop the tower. She just caught this and brought it to my attention as I was recording and I just barely squeezed it in. She’s got some really fabulous essays on the Cthonic underworld realms in ASOIAF, as well as a study of Lyanna as Persephone, an abducted moon goddess which I highly recommend. There’s another appearance of the the moon as a flower motif at the birthing of the shadow baby in A Clash of Kings. Melisandre represents the destroyed second moon, the mother of Lightbringer, as we’ve seen before. --Yes, fair enough, Mel makes a great NN, spiritual mother of Lightbringer. She’s been impregnated by Stannis – who’s playing the role of Azor Ahai of course – and she’s going to give birth to the shadow baby, which represents Lightbringer. Notice that it’s actually the moon which gives light – temporarily, as it explodes – and Lightbringer which is made of darkness. There was no answer but a soft rustling. And then a light bloomed amidst the darkness. Davos raised a hand to shield his eyes, and his breath caught in his throat. Melisandre had thrown back her cowl and shrugged out of the smothering robe. Beneath, she was naked, and huge with child. Swollen breasts hung heavy against her chest, and her belly bulged as if near to bursting. “Gods preserve us,” he whispered, and heard her answering laugh, deep and throaty. Her eyes were hot coals, and the sweat that dappled her skin seemed to glow with a light of its own. Melisandre shone. Panting, she squatted and spread her legs. Blood ran down her thighs, black as ink. Her cry might have been agony or ecstasy or both. And Davos saw the crown of the child’s head push its way out of her. Two arms wriggled free, grasping, black fingers coiling around Melisandre’s straining thighs, pushing, until the whole of the shadow slid out into the world and rose taller than Davos, tall as the tunnel, towering above the boat. He had only an instant to look at it before it was gone, twisting between the bars of the portcullis and racing across the surface of the water, but that instant was long enough. He knew that shadow. As he knew the man who’d cast it. We looked at the Lightbringer symbolism here last time – the agony and ecstasy phrase which matches Nissa Nissa’s cry of anguish and ecstasy, the light in the darkness motif, the fire transformation with burning blood, etc. The word I am focusing on here is “bloomed” – this is the moon’s light blooming like a flower. Not Lightbringer, Lightbringer’s mother. The moon maiden, in the moment that she gives birth to Lightbringer, shines. Attention is drawn to it – they are in a dark cave, and her skin is literally shining. She’s pregnant near to bursting – she couldn’t possibly eat another mint, even if it is wafer-thin. That’s all quite vivid – a moon bursting open, creating momentary light, giving birth to black shadow children. That moon was a bright flower before she died, before she drank too much of the sunlight. As Salladhor Saan says to Davos in A Clash of Kings, “Too much light can hurt the eyes, my friend, and fire burns.” --Alternately, I think Mel shining with her own light might be a reference to Lightbringer—possibly half of former Dawn—as being bright and pale before it was transformed and made dark by blood sacrifice—i.e. gave birth to shadow, in a sense. Notice that Lightbringer the black shadow looks just like his father, “Azor Ahai as played by Stannis Baratheon.” He even has a crown of shadow and towers above the boat – there’s our shadow tower motif again. But while his father is a living person and a king, the son is a black shadow version of the father. That’s the family portrait here – the sun dies, and is reborn as a black shadow sun, a night sun. That’s our Bloodstone Emperor, King of the Nightlands. The Ghost of High Heart, who sees everything and everyone in terms of symbols and sigils, describes Stannis’s shadow baby assassin thusly in A Storm of Swords: “I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye.” As we can see, the burning heart and the black shadow are core elements of Azor Ahai reborn. The fiery heart of the moon maiden becomes the the black shadow meteors, which are themselves fiery hearts that bring darkness and shadow. We’ll get into Renly’s symbolism on a different occasion, but I will point out that the slaughtering of the “golden” stag describes the death of the golden sun. --Murder of a scion of golden Dawnia, plunging the world into darkness. Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolett Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 There's so much going on in that chapter, it's hard to analyse but I'll try my hands at green demons and gushing wildfire. The last two pages appear to allude to different catastrophes on the planet. The first one is easy - all the celestial imagery is there: Quote With a grinding, splintering, tearing crash, Swordfish split the rotted hulk asunder. She burst like an overripe fruit, but no fruit had ever screamed that shattering wooden scream. From inside her, Davos saw green gushing from a thousand broken jars, poison from the entrails of a dying beast, glistening, shining, spreading across the surface of the river … Just before this passage, Davos' heart also 'stops beating', so this one is clear a moon-breaking scenario. The gushing green wildfire is also interesting - I'll come back to that in a minute. Quote Swordfish and the hulk were gone, blackened bodies were floating downstream beside him, and choking men clinging to bits of smoking wood. Fifty feet high, a swirling demon of green flame danced upon the river. It had a dozen hands, in each a whip, and whatever they touched burst into fire. He saw Black Betha burning, and White Hart and Loyal Man to either side. Piety, Cat, Courageous, Sceptre, Red Raven, Harridan, Faithful, Fury, they had all gone up, Kingslander and Godsgrace as well, the demon was eating his own. Lord Velaryon’s shining Pride of Driftmark was trying to turn, but the demon ran a lazy green finger across her silvery oars and they flared up like so many tapers. For an instant she seemed to be stroking the river with two banks of long bright torches. Swordfish and the hulk are done - the moon-breaking scenario is over. Next we have the huge swirling demon of green flame - with a dozen hands. This strongly evokes a kraken, but it's an unusual one - it's whips ignite whatever it touches. Kind of reminds me of Drogo's spirit ascending to the sky, his cracking his whip directed at a dragon-egg - which hatches into a creature of fire. The whip /kraken combination also evoke the Grey King's ploy - tricking the Storm God to send lightning to burn a tree. There are 14 burning ships in the scene, recalling the fourteen flames and the Doom of Valyria. The demon's lazy green finger ignites the oars on each side of the ship - 2 opposing volcanic mountain ranges set alight by the demon's fire - they go up like tapers - also evokes volcanos spouting fire and lava. Quote The current had him in its teeth by then, spinning him around and around. He kicked to avoid a floating patch of wildfire. .... I’m being swept out into the bay. ..... The chain. Gods save us, they’ve raised the chain.... Davos could make out the striped hulls of Salladhor Saan’s ships beyond, but he knew he would never reach them. A wall of red-hot steel, blazing wood, and swirling green flame stretched before him. The mouth of the Blackwater Rush had turned into the mouth of hell. This one is interesting. Let's say Davos survives both the breaking of the moon and the Doom. This suggests he's of ancient lineage. He was also a smuggler who operated at night - he has a moonlike onion sigil - Other symbolism here. But this comes right after my proposed Doom and he's being swept out into the bay by the current where he'll eventually be 'rescued' by the Spears of the Merling King. If this represents the Doom, then measures were taken to make sure there are no survivors - the chain. The mouth of the Blackwater Rush is like hell - the smoking sea. Davos does escape though - and Salladhor Saan with his Valyrian didn't even take part in the battle. Salladohor with his Valyrian = Targaryens who escaped the Doom: Lord Aenar Targaryen and family, who resettled on Dragonstone. We can infer that Old Valyria wasn't only busy hatching dragons - they were also in the business of creating Others. Whoever organized the Doom wanted to destroy both threats - but one person assoicated with the Others escapes and so do the Targs (as we know). So. I'll leave you to ponder the rest. Need to stop here - more on the gushing green fire another time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Just a little something I was discussing with LmL. In the series we see a few one-eyed characters. And it occurred to me that this might symbolically represent the destruction of one of the moons. Consider the example of Bloodraven, and some possible connections with LmL's ideas seem to appear. Dunk whirled. Through the rain, all he could make out was a hooded shape and a single pale white eye. It was only when the man came forward that the shadowed face beneath the cowl took on the familiar features of Ser Maynard Plumm, the pale eye no more than the moonstone brooch that pinned his cloak at the shoulder. - TMK Here in The Mystery Knight, where Bloodraven has been glamouring himself as Ser Maynard Plumm, we see that Dunk mistakes a moonstone brooch for an eye. So there is a moon(stone) - eye connection, involving the one-eyed BR. I'm sure most of us remember that BR's missing eye was ripped out by Bittersteel on the Redgrass. Which is interesting when you consider BS's sigil: a winged, red horse on a golden background. Horses with wings are horses that fly, and flying horses are horses that are found in the sky. The Dothraki believed the stars were horses made of fire, a great herd that galloped across the sky by night. - AGoT In other words, the Dothraki believe that stars are flying horses. Which makes Bittersteel's sigil a red star, symbolically speaking anyway. And we know that the ACoK comet is described as a red star. Further: Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. - AGoT Which gives us language describing the sun as golden. So, we have a red star (comet) on a sun-colored background. This sigil represents Bittersteel who ripped out, or destroyed if you will, one of his half-brother's eyes during battle. And this half-brother has his eye linked in the text to moonstone. Hmm. I mean, maybe I'm looking for things I want to see. But, that symbolism fits awfully well with the idea that a/the "red star" destroyed one of the moons. And there's certainly more with Bloodraven. I'm sure LmL has already mentioned how "a thousand eyes and one" relates to his theory. As well as the symbolic God's Eye link. Connecting this last idea to BR makes plenty of sense since he, the Last Greenseer, is himself essentially an old god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 Thanks for the comments everyone, I just started a new job this week and I am way short on time. I appredicate the input and I'll try to respond tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blind Beth the Cat Lady Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Congrats on the new job! One more general comment about the Sansa/moon blood scene. Fundamentally it's not a scene about destruction but about cleansing, or trying to clean. Off the top of my head there are three times when Sansa is presented with stains that she tries or wants to wash out. When Arya throws the blood orange at her, this scene, and when Sandor leaves his bloody cloak. In all cases Sansa is unable to wash out the blood (or blood-orange). She dyes the dress as a mourning gown. The bedclothes she "cleanses" with fire but ultimately can't save, and the cloak she seems to have also dyes and repurposed (the Rethinking Sansa crowd spotted that Sansa's escape cloak fits as Sandor's cloak, dyed green). This goes along with Sansa as a redemptive figure. I also like to think it says that her relationships with Arya and Sandor were flawed but salvageable while her relationship with Kings Landing/Lannisters/Joff is a total loss. Even the most merciful mother can't redeem everyone. This could also work with the idea of the Maiden Made of Light turning her face away in despair. The blood betrayal, echoed in Sansa's stabbing dream, is just too great a stain on the GEotD and can't be cleansed. So it has to be burned/thrown out like so many ruined bedclothes. Cue destructive meteors, and Stannis--"what was Stannis if not the Stranger come to judge them?" And the long night. (I see Stranger Stannis as taking the role of the avenging sapphire knight, though certainly he also plays AA in other ways. Actually I see a lot of AA/SK crossover in different characters, most notably Jon.) It's interesting that Stannis is framed as a figure of judgment shortly after Sansa's dream echoes the blood betrayal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolett Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 3 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said: Congrats on the new job! One more general comment about the Sansa/moon blood scene. Fundamentally it's not a scene about destruction but about cleansing, or trying to clean. Off the top of my head there are three times when Sansa is presented with stains that she tries or wants to wash out. When Arya throws the blood orange at her, this scene, and when Sandor leaves his bloody cloak. In all cases Sansa is unable to wash out the blood (or blood-orange). She dyes the dress as a mourning gown. The bedclothes she "cleanses" with fire but ultimately can't save, and the cloak she seems to have also dyes and repurposed (the Rethinking Sansa crowd spotted that Sansa's escape cloak fits as Sandor's cloak, dyed green). This goes along with Sansa as a redemptive figure. I also like to think it says that her relationships with Arya and Sandor were flawed but salvageable while her relationship with Kings Landing/Lannisters/Joff is a total loss. Even the most merciful mother can't redeem everyone. This could also work with the idea of the Maiden Made of Light turning her face away in despair. The blood betrayal, echoed in Sansa's stabbing dream, is just too great a stain on the GEotD and can't be cleansed. So it has to be burned/thrown out like so many ruined bedclothes. Cue destructive meteors, and Stannis--"what was Stannis if not the Stranger come to judge them?" And the long night. (I see Stranger Stannis as taking the role of the avenging sapphire knight, though certainly he also plays AA in other ways. Actually I see a lot of AA/SK crossover in different characters, most notably Jon.) It's interesting that Stannis is framed as a figure of judgment shortly after Sansa's dream echoes the blood betrayal. Very nice observations @Blind Beth the Cat Lady. Destruction sets the scene but it also reveals a lot about cleansing which has quite a range of motifs itself. Fire is important to the theme of cleansing of course and all the fire scenes in which internal organs or blood become blackened are examples of cleansing. I'm glad you point this aspect of the scene out because it relates to 'weaving' and to the pearl study I'm currently involved in. You've read my stuff on weaving and weaver women. Weaver women include all those who engage in sewing, embroidery and all related aspects such as cutting thread, measuring the lenght of thread etc and represent those infused with the magic that allows them to weave light to cause magical illusions such as glamouring and extending life-span itself. Relatied to 'sewing' is also the theme of washing fabrics - 'Washerwomen' are all metaphorically concerned with cleaning clothes and removing past taints - blood taints brought about by the BSE's sorcery. This passage is particulary enlightning because it actually lists all the different measures employed in cleansing or transforming taints - we have the fire, washing and dyeing of fabrics. Great stuff. I had already noted that 'waking the dragon' is a means to achieving this cleansing process - Dany's dream shows that the dragon scours her clean and rids her of any inherited taints associated with the Breaking eons ago. The same is true for the other two characters I consider to be heads of the dragon. All three experience this cleansing process as well - the process is different in each, but achieves the same thing. Blue winter roses also represent a stage in this cleansing process - they are the absolute key to Lyanna's role in birthing a son with the innate ability to make a change. I look forward to presenting this idea publicly soon. I see you've also spotted the green cloak - also part of my pearl investigation - green pearls in this case. The green cloak and green pearl also represent efforts to transform, but in a different way. Both are the key to the winged wolf and dragon-riding, both of which represent a means to deal with the repercussions of sorcery; the scene in question hints at this as well. Sansa is certainly a redemptive figure in this respect and I think we'll be surprised to discover that Littlefinger, in his own warped way, is also part of the effort to bring about a positive change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolett Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 On 7.2.2016 at 9:59 PM, LmL said: I definitely think George is giving us clues that people who sit on the Seastone Chair are changed, given the remarks made about Balon and the Grey King story of him growing corpselike. It just struck me that the Seastone Chair may represent a pairing of Earth (stone) and Water (sea) magic, similar to the driftwood I expand on above. The difference is the material. It suggests the type of material representing an element is of importance, in this case stone vrs. wood; perhaps as far as magic is concerned, the properties of the material determine the outcome of the magic. The Grey King's throne is a bone/wood pair - I had to look up bone - the Chinese 5-Element theory assigns bone to water so we have another water/earth combination here whose intrinsic properties probably differ from seastone or driftwood. There are lots of such pairs - obsidian which is frozen fire - fire/ice i.e. fire/water, fire made compact by ice which enfolds its heat when plunged into an icy Other. Kind of makes sense to change the state of fire to a form the Others are vulnerable to because we know fire only 'dismays' them. Bloodstone then, is another example. Blood and stone. Bloodstone is a green stone with red inclusions - Greenblood with red inclusions. The Greenblood river in Dorne is described as murky and slow-moving and in the scene where Hotah kills Arys Oakheart, the latter's red blood drops into the river - making Greenblood. Looks like a combination of water/earth magic yet again. Greenblood with red inclusions + stone. The 12-handed, wildfire kraken monster of Blackwater Bay is possibly another representation of this 'greenblood' but this is hot and fiery. Following on from this: in terms of Bloodstone, we could say the original 'greenblood' was cold and murky but the inclusions of 'hot red blood' transform it into a hot fiery substance. Bloodstone is therefore a combination of the elements water, earth and fire. Wow. Like the Damphair's staff. It's the first time I'm paying attention to these pairs and combinations but I'm certain that the properties of individual materials provide clues to their underlying magic. There was some talk of lizard-people above - may I point out that certain lizards have green blood - caused by a high concentration of bilirubin and highly toxic. It's believed to be a defence mechanism against the Plasmodium parasite which causes malaria in these lizards. In fact, everything on them is green - skin, bones and blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 7 minutes ago, Evolett said: Bloodstone then, is another example. Blood and stone. Bloodstone is a green stone with red inclusions - Greenblood with red inclusions. The Greenblood river in Dorne is described as murky and slow-moving and in the scene where Hotah kills Arys Oakheart, the latter's red blood drops into the river - making Greenblood. Looks like a combination of water/earth magic yet again. Greenblood with red inclusions + stone. The 12-handed, wildfire kraken monster of Blackwater Bay is possibly another representation of this 'greenblood' but this is hot and fiery. Following on from this: in terms of Bloodstone, we could say the original 'greenblood' was cold and murky but the inclusions of 'hot red blood' transform it into a hot fiery substance. Bloodstone is therefore a combination of the elements water, earth and fire. Wow. Like the Damphair's staff. It's the first time I'm paying attention to these pairs and combinations but I'm certain that the properties of individual materials provide clues to their underlying magic. There was some talk of lizard-people above - may I point out that certain lizards have green blood - caused by a high concentration of bilirubin and highly toxic. It's believed to be a defence mechanism against the Plasmodium parasite which causes malaria in these lizards. In fact, everything on them is green - skin, bones and blood. They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert’s hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor. - AGoT, Eddard I Rhaegar's rubies fell into the Green Fork of the Trident. So, spots of red on green. Robert is called Usurper dozens of times in the series, and the Bloodstone Betrayal is described as a usurpation in TWoIaF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolett Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 31 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said: Rhaegar's rubies fell into the Green Fork of the Trident. So, spots of red on green. Robert is called Usurper dozens of times in the series, and the Bloodstone Betrayal is described as a usurpation in TWoIaF. Yes, Rhaegar's rubies in the Green Fork occurred to me just as I hit the submit button. @LmL identified Robert as a BSE archetype a while ago. It's the implication regarding Rhaegar that interests me. His rubies fall into the green fork - that basically makes him a 'bloodstone' as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 2 minutes ago, Evolett said: Yes, Rhaegar's rubies in the Green Fork occurred to me just as I hit the submit button. @LmL identified Robert as a BSE archetype a while ago. It's the implication regarding Rhaegar that interests me. His rubies fall into the green fork - that basically makes him a 'bloodstone' as well. How do you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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