Waves of Night and Moon Blood: Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire podcast, episode 3

[LmL]

2 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

Facts? Examples? Anything that would give some merit to your argument?

Definitely the first time someone has complained about not enough textual evidence... not even sure what to say to that.

[LmL]

40 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

I read the first 3 essays and I have to say I'm not convinced.

The essays involve a lot of repetition, and almost 0 textual evidence.

Just because you keep repeating a theory/claims many times doesn't make it any more true. The author of the bloodstone/lightbringer "theory" (if it can even be called that) uses the same 2 quotes (the one by Doreah and the one when Melisandre looks into her flames) over and over. I think some readers are so desperate for an explanation to Lightbringer's origins that they will accept any theory if they can be talked into it by being overwhelmed with baseless claims.

I actually read the first 3 essays from start to finish and I have to say that each essay could be about 90% shorter if they removed the unfounded claims and kept the book evidence. It's a lot of words, that in the end don't say much at all. 

 

I appreciate you taking the thine to read my essays, so I'll see what I can give you by way of response, even though you're doing one of those things that people do that's kind of annoying - saying "there's no textual evidence" when what you really mean to say that you don't fund the evidence compelling, or that you don't agree with the interpretation. Still, you read my essays so I'll see what I can do. If you've read all of them and don't think there's any evidence to support them, then I'm not sure anything I can say will persuade you, but let's just start with the very very beginning and you tell me where I am going wrong.

Falling meteors and comets have been described as dragons and fiery snakes all over the world, among completely independent cultures. So when we hear early on in the books about a moon cracking and pouring forth dragons, that IS the mythological way of describing a meteor shower. Now given that meteor impacts are one of three ways the sun can be blacked out - the other two are supermassive volcanic eruptions and nuclear weapons - it's quite interesting to find a story about meteors coming from the moon. Now in the Azor Ahai story, the moon cracks when Lightbringer is forged, so it's reasonable to wonder if this might be the same cracking of the moon as we hear of in the Qarthine legend. The Azor Ahai story take splice during the Long Night, so we even have a moon cracking event associated with the Long Night.

Are you with me so far?

Then in TWOIAF we hear of ANOTHER story involving flaming swords, meteors, blood sacrifice of a woman, and this also takes place during the Long Night. That's the Bloodstone Emperor story of course.

That's all pretty much straight from the text - and that's really the basis of the theory. There is ample evidence of meteor impacts - the Hammer of the Waters, the Sea Dragon, the Dawn story - and a couple of floods, as with Durran Godsgrief, the Sea Dragon, and the Grey King, whose throne was drowned by the Storm God, and again the Hammer of the Waters and Moat Cailin. But even without all of that... you've got the essence of the Long Night right there. 

[hiemal]

5 hours ago, LmL said:

3.) the two moons used to be locked, or they used to be one. Picture our smaller black moon locked in orbit with the white one. I don't think this is possible, astronomically, but who knows what George is thinking. The black moon would be the God Emperor, and the white one his palanquin. 

 

What if they were "locked" in opposing orbit around the world ala the crackpot "Vulcan" (I choke to use the word) theories (although obviously the proposed Vulcan is opposite Earth in her planetary orbit). One white, one dark and because they orbit at the exact opposite point on the lunar orbit there is always one of them in the sky? I'm not sure on the astronomy of it, but it seems... elegant.

Or is that what you meant?

[hiemal]

7 hours ago, Evolett said:

Good you point out the metaphor for childbearing. I was so focused on fertility and 'baby-pearls', I failed to point out the obvious. The 'pearl necklace' is great. Thanks for the tips! 

 

A couple other thoughts keep nagging at me:

The ancient custom of dissolving pearls in vinegar as a tonic and a display of wealth. I'm not finding any connection anywhere, but it keeps disturbing me so I thought I'd mention it.

And pearlescent and opalescent as qualities that relate to milkglass. From what I understand milkglass is created by the introduction of impurities before blowing and shaping. I have no idea if actual pearls could be used for this purpose and even less so with the kind of heat needed to shape steel but I thought it worth bringing up.

[LmL]

21 minutes ago, hiemal said:

What if they were "locked" in opposing orbit around the world ala the crackpot "Vulcan" (I choke to use the word) theories (although obviously the proposed Vulcan is opposite Earth in her planetary orbit). One white, one dark and because they orbit at the exact opposite point on the lunar orbit there is always one of them in the sky? I'm not sure on the astronomy of it, but it seems... elegant.

Or is that what you meant?

I was thinking that perhaps they were locked together as on in superimposed. Like the ice moon is a bit farther but they both orbit at the same rate, relative to distance. probably way to kooky - I think the Morningstar answer is the best. 

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, LmL said:

I was thinking that perhaps they were locked together as on in superimposed. Like the ice moon is a bit farther but they both orbit at the same rate, relative to distance. probably way to kooky - I think the Morningstar answer is the best. 

It's certainly the closest to my own thoughts on the matter so I can't argue with you there, but the idea of opposing moons intrigues me. I suppose it would play merry hell with the tides.

[TheSnowInWinterfell]

I read the first 3 essays and I have to say I'm not convinced.

The essays involve a lot of repetition, and almost 0 textual evidence.

Just because you keep repeating a theory/claims many times doesn't make it any more true. The author of the bloodstone/lightbringer "theory" (if it can even be called that) uses the same 2 quotes (the one by Doreah and the one when Melisandre looks into her flames) over and over. I think some readers are so desperate for an explanation to Lightbringer's origins that they will accept any theory if they can be talked into it by being overwhelmed with baseless claims.

I actually read the first 3 essays from start to finish and I have to say that each essay could be about 90% shorter if they removed the unfounded claims and kept the book evidence. It's a lot of words, that in the end don't say much at all. 

 

It's didn't seem like repetition to me. It seems like there's alot of instances of the same types of symbolism. I think it was well thought out and well put together. It's an almost overwhelming amount of evidence. Baseless claims? I don't see it. Lack of textual evidence? I don't see how you can say that. I think it could have been explained in a lot less words, sure. But it is my opinion the author was being thorough and probably felt that if the reader was still reading that they were invested so he was going to all out and get every piece of evidence in he could. Just my take.

[Evolett]

10 hours ago, hiemal said:

 

A couple other thoughts keep nagging at me:

The ancient custom of dissolving pearls in vinegar as a tonic and a display of wealth. I'm not finding any connection anywhere, but it keeps disturbing me so I thought I'd mention it.

And pearlescent and opalescent as qualities that relate to milkglass. From what I understand milkglass is created by the introduction of impurities before blowing and shaping. I have no idea if actual pearls could be used for this purpose and even less so with the kind of heat needed to shape steel but I thought it worth bringing up.

 

I've looked at milkglass in relation to the Other's bones: breaking it down gives us milk and glass. The most important minerals in milk and glass are calcium and silica. Bones contain a high amount of calcium. It's vital to maintaining the bone mass requried for the body's structural support. In a nutshell, I speculate on Craster's sheep, which the Others also accept, as essential to the milk for the bones that 'remember'. 

Calcium Silicate is derived from limestone (limestone is also important to saltwater lakes like the Dead Sea which I see as a model for the Silver Sea). It's also purified from slag, a waste substance that forms when molten iron is made from iron ore. The interesting thing is it's fire-resistant and one of the best fire-proofing materials around. The others are only dismayed by real fire and can only be killed with frozen fire, so I think it's a likely substance for the bones of the Others. 

However, I can't really imagine calcium silicate alone as the basis of a weapon. It's probably only a component. Perhaps George has created a fantasy material for Dawn and Other swords. The closest thing in the real world is the ceramic knife and that's composed mainly of zirconium oxide. The latter occurs as baddeleyite in it's natural form and its properties echo the crystal swords of the Others. It's composed of transparent to transluscent prismatic crystal structures. Baddeleyite transforms into zircon in sediments with high silica content. Cubic zirconia is synthesized from baddelyite/zirconia for the production of synthetic diamonds. Taken together, calcium silicate and baddeleyite could theoretically be the basis of a sword with 'milkglass' property and the hardness and strength of a 'diamond'. Ceramic knives are super sharp as well - I have two in the kitchen myself. I'm also thinking of the river - the White Knife - this could be lightning or a hint at a ceramic knife, or both. Zirconia is also known as 'Berg Crystal' in German - meaning Mountain crystal, which I think is also significant. 

Vinegar - vinegar tarnishes the pearl or dissolves it, as any acid would - like wine for instance. As you note, pearls dissolved in wine or vinegar were thought to promote health and long life - actually this was another reason for the drastic decline in natural marine pearls in the past. The best specimens were coveted for their value as jewels while the rest found their way to the 'pharmaceutical market'. When they weren't dissolved, they were crushed into a powder and sprinkled on food (the World Book states this about the Golden Empire of YiTi as well). So yes, there is a connection between vinegar and the pearl in the books - I'm holding this one back for the third essay but maybe you can guess 

Vinegar is also relevant in respect of wildfire. Nowadys, we think of wildfire in terms of a huge conflagration, like a bush or forest fire but in the past, when people talked of wildfire, they meant Greek Fire, developed and used by the Byzantine Empire in naval battles. I think the author has modelled his wildfire on Greek Fire and we see its main deployment in a naval battle as well. Its manufacture was a heavily guarded military secret. Even today, the secret of its components remain a mystery. It behaved just like the wildfire in the narrative, dangerous and unpredictable and a hazard to those who had the misfortune of being in charge of it as well. It burned on water and was nigh impossible to extinguish. In fact the only two things said to be effective against it were - urine and vinegar! Lol. Makes you wonder about Aeron Damphair's pissing competitions and all those descriptions of people taking a good long piss. I'm sure I'll get to the bottom of that as well. 

 

[Daendrew]

Earth is made up of two planets fused together, new research suggests

http://www.sciencealert.com/earth-is-made-up-of-two-planets-fused-together-by-a-head-on-collision-new-research-suggests

 

Also there was a House Danpierre in France.

[LmL]

9 hours ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said:

It's didn't seem like repetition to me. It seems like there's alot of instances of the same types of symbolism. I think it was well thought out and well put together. It's an almost overwhelming amount of evidence. Baseless claims? I don't see it. Lack of textual evidence? I don't see how you can say that. I think it could have been explained in a lot less words, sure. But it is my opinion the author was being thorough and probably felt that if the reader was still reading that they were invested so he was going to all out and get every piece of evidence in he could. Just my take.

That's all pretty much the truth right there. I figure if people are listening and like the kind of analysis I am doing, why should I be in a huge rush? All of these scenes are really amazing when you look at the mythical astronomy symbolism, and they are all enjoyable to break down, so I usually include three examples of a given pattern of symbol. And yes, I also do this to prove my point, because any one instance of an astronomy metaphor is subjective and debatable. By showing the reptilian of the patterns in the book, I'm reducing the chances that people might perceive it as coincidence. 

I actually do not include all the evidence I can find about anything. I always have to cut things and limit myself to however many examples I've decided are enough. 

I also broke every podcast down into sections, which can function as good stopping points for people who only want 20-30 min at a time. I could record shorter episodes, but then I'd constantly be summing up what happened last time in order to continue building on an idea. When inside one episode, I can build on several thoughts as I go. For example I could have split off all that Sansa moon blood and purple flowers to its own essay, but so much in there has to do with things earlier in the essay, such as the running theme of resurrected Azor Ahai or the concept of moon blood as a blood tide. I had to show Melisandre's black and bloody tide AND the Sansa moon blood tide in the same episode, I felt. Also, both sections are about light drinking / sun turning - bringing darkness in the first half, and turning to face the light as in the heliotrope flower. 

The challenge is to identify unifying ideas which can function as an overarching topic. I chose the waves of night and blood in Oathkeeper and Widows Wail because it captures the floods, darkness, and meteors triumvirate, and shows that swords and blood were the trigger mechanism. Hence the title, Waves of Night and Moon Blood. 

I didn't even get into all times the Ironborn are like a tide - it happens a lot and it's no coincidence. That will in turn lead to more logistical speculation about the Ironborn and the invasion of Westeros from the GEotD. 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Daendrew said:

Earth is made up of two planets fused together, new research suggests

http://www.sciencealert.com/earth-is-made-up-of-two-planets-fused-together-by-a-head-on-collision-new-research-suggests

 

Also there was a House Danpierre in France.

I shared this one on my Facebook page, pretty awesome huh! Great picture too. 

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

 

I've looked at milkglass in relation to the Other's bones: breaking it down gives us milk and glass. The most important minerals in milk and glass are calcium and silica. Bones contain a high amount of calcium. It's vital to maintaining the bone mass requried for the body's structural support. In a nutshell, I speculate on Craster's sheep, which the Others also accept, as essential to the milk for the bones that 'remember'. 

Calcium Silicate is derived from limestone (limestone is also important to saltwater lakes like the Dead Sea which I see as a model for the Silver Sea). It's also purified from slag, a waste substance that forms when molten iron is made from iron ore. The interesting thing is it's fire-resistant and one of the best fire-proofing materials around. The others are only dismayed by real fire and can only be killed with frozen fire, so I think it's a likely substance for the bones of the Others. 

However, I can't really imagine calcium silicate alone as the basis of a weapon. It's probably only a component. Perhaps George has created a fantasy material for Dawn and Other swords. The closest thing in the real world is the ceramic knife and that's composed mainly of zirconium oxide. The latter occurs as baddeleyite in it's natural form and its properties echo the crystal swords of the Others. It's composed of transparent to transluscent prismatic crystal structures. Baddeleyite transforms into zircon in sediments with high silica content. Cubic zirconia is synthesized from baddelyite/zirconia for the production of synthetic diamonds. Taken together, calcium silicate and baddeleyite could theoretically be the basis of a sword with 'milkglass' property and the hardness and strength of a 'diamond'. Ceramic knives are super sharp as well - I have two in the kitchen myself. I'm also thinking of the river - the White Knife - this could be lightning or a hint at a ceramic knife, or both. Zirconia is also known as 'Berg Crystal' in German - meaning Mountain crystal, which I think is also significant. 

Vinegar - vinegar tarnishes the pearl or dissolves it, as any acid would - like wine for instance. As you note, pearls dissolved in wine or vinegar were thought to promote health and long life - actually this was another reason for the drastic decline in natural marine pearls in the past. The best specimens were coveted for their value as jewels while the rest found their way to the 'pharmaceutical market'. When they weren't dissolved, they were crushed into a powder and sprinkled on food (the World Book states this about the Golden Empire of YiTi as well). So yes, there is a connection between vinegar and the pearl in the books - I'm holding this one back for the third essay but maybe you can guess 

Vinegar is also relevant in respect of wildfire. Nowadys, we think of wildfire in terms of a huge conflagration, like a bush or forest fire but in the past, when people talked of wildfire, they meant Greek Fire, developed and used by the Byzantine Empire in naval battles. I think the author has modelled his wildfire on Greek Fire and we see its main deployment in a naval battle as well. Its manufacture was a heavily guarded military secret. Even today, the secret of its components remain a mystery. It behaved just like the wildfire in the narrative, dangerous and unpredictable and a hazard to those who had the misfortune of being in charge of it as well. It burned on water and was nigh impossible to extinguish. In fact the only two things said to be effective against it were - urine and vinegar! Lol. Makes you wonder about Aeron Damphair's pissing competitions and all those descriptions of people taking a good long piss. I'm sure I'll get to the bottom of that as well. 

 

Har! You are a treasure! The flame-retardant properties of calcium silicate had escaped me. And the "White Knife".

And urine and vinegar as a defense against naphtha! Good stuff.

Re: vinegar, urine, and wildfire- does this smack of medieval alchemy to you? Pearls could be seen in that connection as a stand in for star-seed, lapis excellis, virgins milk, sperm of elements, and all of the other suggestive terms that could lead up to the mythical philosophers stone?

[Evolett]

12 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Har! You are a treasure! The flame-retardant properties of calcium silicate had escaped me. And the "White Knife".

And urine and vinegar as a defense against naphtha! Good stuff.

Re: vinegar, urine, and wildfire- does this smack of medieval alchemy to you? Pearls could be seen in that connection as a stand in for star-seed, lapis excellis, virgins milk, sperm of elements, and all of the other suggestive terms that could lead up to the mythical philosophers stone?

Considering the fate of 'treasures', I'm not sure I want to be one  

Regarding alchemy - yes definitely. I've been reading up on that subject, on alchemical salt, sulphur and mercury etc. Shade-of-the-evening elixir also hints at the philosopher's stone. No definite conclusions yet but I think the magical properties of the pearl were later transformed and incorporated into the sapphire, perhaps exclusively for capturing starlight as opposed to the entire spectrum of moonlight. 

[LmL]

8 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Considering the fate of 'treasures', I'm not sure I want to be one  

Regarding alchemy - yes definitely. I've been reading up on that subject, on alchemical salt, sulphur and mercury etc. Shade-of-the-evening elixir also hints at the philosopher's stone. No definite conclusions yet but I think the magical properties of the pearl were later transformed and incorporated into the sapphire, perhaps exclusively for capturing starlight as opposed to the entire spectrum of moonlight. 

You need to update your signature, treasure lady.

[Evolett]

4 minutes ago, LmL said:

You need to update your signature, treasure lady.

I can't figure out how to do that (hides her face in shame) - and I can't see anyone else's signature either. I decided they must have rendered that feature void ^^

[LmL]

Click on your name in the upper right corner of this page, and click"account settings." Signature is there. There's also an option to block other people's signatures, which you might have checked. If you are viewing on mobile, there are no signatures (would be too obnoxious). 

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

I can't figure out how to do that (hides her face in shame) - and I can't see anyone else's signature either. I decided they must have rendered that feature void ^^

Ah ha! So that's your true identity! The sun! THE sun, I should say! Not just any old sun, but the specific one we call the sun! That's you! 

 

LOL

ETA: look, it's my 4,800th post!

ETA ETA: @Evolett I see your count got reset

 

[Evolett]

 You've blown my cover - LOL

ETA - Congrats! 5K not long in coming. Don't know if my count got reset. Don't think I had that many.

[LmL]

@Evolett I am only finished with the first section about the Dothraki and Silver Sea but there is already a lot I like here. I'm in total agreement so far.

 

[LmL]

AHHHH!! DRANK THE MOONLIGHT???? HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THIS?!?!?!? GAH!!!