What was Rhaegar Targaryen thinking?

[UnmaskedLurker]

2 minutes ago, redtree said:

Aerys made Viserys his heir after Rhaegar died so Viserys was king not anyone else. The King was in the Dragonstone not in the middle of Dorne

He said they were KG and thought of Arthur Dayne as the best knight, that's it. And KG do whatever the royals tells them, it's in their duty to obey. Those 3 being there were because of order, Aerys knew they were there and didn't recall them to accompany Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone. It's just duty, doesn't imply as anything else
 

He thought Aegon was the Prince, not Jon. If he indeed tried to recreate the conqueror's trio, he'd expect a girl from Lyanna not a boy
 

Because he knew that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped and she ran on her own will

Orders from Royals, Aerys didn't recall them. Simple as that

There is no assurance that news of the naming of V as heir got to ToJ. As long as the KG at ToJ had no knowledge of that naming -- and as long as they learned of the death of Aegon -- it would be understandable for them to consider Jon as the new King if he is true-born.

AD would not be considered the "best knight" if he ignored his obligations as KG to ensure that a new King has KG protection. A great knight does not allow such an occurrence to happen. The duty to obey an old order from a dead Crown Prince would not be considered by Ned to supersede the overriding central duty of the KG to ensure that a King has KG protection. The entire purpose of the KG's existence is the guard the King -- obeying orders simply is ancillary -- and cannot be considered to be something that the KG would simply blindly obey forever (as neither Rhaegar nor Aerys were alive at that point to give different orders -- and they did not send someone to DS to see if the new "King" had new orders for them).

Even if he thought Aegon to be TPTWP (and there is some reason to think Rhaegar changed his mind to Jon upon realizing Lyanna to be Ice to his Fire -- but assume here that he did not), he was trying to give birth to the third head "of the dragon." Even if some people consider Targ bastards to be dragons -- Rhaegar would not want to take any chances. He would want to be sure his child was a full Targaryen in every sense -- from birth -- which means being married to the mother. For Jon to be a head "of the dragon" -- Rhaegar would want Jon to be a "dragon" at the moment of birth -- a real Targ in every sense.

Making a high born lady a mistress -- even of a Crown Prince -- is a huge disgrace and humiliation in that culture. Ned would not excuse Rhaegar for engaging in such a dishonorable action with Ned's sister -- even if she engaged in the action willingly.

I already addressed that point above -- old orders are irrelevant when the new King has no KG protection and they make no attempt to see if the new King has new orders for them.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

17 minutes ago, redtree said:

Aerys made Viserys his heir after Rhaegar died so Viserys was king not anyone else. The King was in the Dragonstone not in the middle of Dorne

Did the 3 King's Guard get that info?

He said they were KG and thought of Arthur Dayne as the best knight, that's it. And KG do whatever the royals tells them, it's in their duty to obey. Those 3 being there were because of order, Aerys knew they were there and didn't recall them to accompany Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone. It's just duty, doesn't imply as anything else
So they follow orders from a dead Prince, even after their King dies? And at the cost of protecting the new King?

There is no evidence that Aerys knew where they were, only that he sent someone to find Rhaegar. Do we know if they reported back to Aerys where he was?

He thought Aegon was the Prince, not Jon. If he indeed tried to recreate the conqueror's trio, he'd expect a girl from Lyanna not a boy
I agree, still not a reason to make the third head a bastard, when he can so easily marry a second wife like Aegon did.

Because he knew that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped and she ran on her own will. And it seemed that unlike Robert, Ned had moved on from the whole tragedy until the nightmare started

Moved on so much that hears Lyanna say promise me every few paragraphs? Moved on enough that he built a statue in tombs breaking precedent?

Orders from Royals, Aerys didn't recall them. Simple as that

And when Aerys died, the King's Guard just follow their last order till the end of time?

 

[purple-eyes]

14 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

1: While Aerys did declare that Viserys was his new heir after Rhaegar died we do not know if word of that ever left the Capitol let alone made it to the Tower of Joy.

If it did, then yes they would be Oath Breakers.

2: Even if Aerys did declare Viserys heir over Aegon (which I think he did. It makes sense otherwise it would be a smart move for Dorne to try to assassinate Aerys so Aegon becomes King and gets them out of the War), we do not know if Aerys attainted the whole of Rhaegar's line.

Did he just move Viserys up ahead of Aegon and Rhaeneys (and Jon)? Or did he remove all of them from the line of succession entirely?

3: Assuming that Aegon was not entirely removed from the line of succession, then yes Aegon would be ahead of Jon for the Crown.

As far as the three King's Guard knows, Aegon died (regardless if fAegon is Aegon no one knew about him at the time)

I highly doubt aerys meant this: I disinherited aegon and named viserys as my heir, but if rhaegar had a child from another woman, then this child should be my heir. I only skipped aegon. If rhaegar had another son, I will be glad to set him as my heir. 

[devilish]

On 03/02/2016 at 7:53 PM, NervousFiend said:

Rhaegar Targaryen was a pretty smart man, He read alot and was a very intelligent and determined person, Commonfolk loved him, he was a respectful and honorable man, according to Ned.

So how is it that, Rhaegar Targaryen a person that is very smart runs away with a stark girl without thinking of the consequences?

Since he was the Prince and soon to be king, couldn't he somehow manage being with Lyanna stark without starting a war and losing his own life in the end?

What was he really up to? did he actually love Lyanna stark or was he up to something else?

Well he did create a diplomatic issue here however I pretty much doubt that that alone would have caused a revolt. Actually Brandon gave Aerys the golden opportunity needed to sort this without the need of any blood to be spread. A mentally sane Aerys would forgive the Stark boy for barging in KL and threatening to kill the crown prince as long as Rickard would forgive Rhaegar for stealing his daughter. Rhaegar would of course be punished (no tv for a couple of days), Lyanna would return to her father (if she's not pregnant) or remain as Rhaegar's mistress if she is and Robert B would be offered to marry the crown prince's daughter when she comes at age. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

1 minute ago, purple-eyes said:

I highly doubt aerys meant this: I disinherited aegon and named viserys as my heir, but if rhaegar had a child from another woman, then this child should be my heir. I only skipped aegon. If rhaegar had another son, I will be glad to set him as my heir. 

I actually agree with this.

But it does not mean that the three KIng's Guard knew about this. And it does not have any effect on whether Jon is Trueborn.

[purple-eyes]

19 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Barristan was in a bed injured and captured. It would have been quite a trick to get to Dragonstone.

What? After he was healed, he can not go to DS? Viserys and rhaella stayed there for nine months. Barri was in bed for nine months? Even after that, he still can go to Essos like how he seeker dany. 

Barristan is an oath breaker and people still thought he is wonderful. Ned respected them because they faced them bravely without fleeing. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

1 minute ago, purple-eyes said:

What? After he was healed, he can not go to DS? Viserys and rhaella stayed there for nine months. Barri was in bed for nine months? Even after that, he still can go to Essos like how he seeker dany. 

Barristan is an oath breaker and people still thought he is wonderful. Ned respected them because they faced them bravely without fleeing. 

by that time he sworn fealty to Robert.

And it depends what each person believes what the Oath means. Is the Oath to the Throne, the Family or to the Man?

If it is to the Man, do they need to follow the Oath after he dies? If it is to the Throne, does he follow the Oath when a new King takes the Throne? If it is too the Family, does he follow the Oath for the actual line of succession or the one that the man creates?

 

Barristan was defeated and did everything he could. He was captured and his King was killed (by another King's Guard).
I can not fault him for swearing fealty to the man who became the new King, and that showed him mercy and kindness in Barristan's defeat. That was probably more than he ever experienced from Aerys.

Barristan obviously felt at the time, that his Oath was to the Throne not to Aerys.

[purple-eyes]

Just now, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

by that time he sworn fealty to Robert.

And it depends what each person believes what the Oath means. Is the Oath to the Throne, the Family or to the Man?

If it is to the Man, do they need to follow the Oath after he dies? If it is to the Throne, does he follow the Oath when a new King takes the Throne? If it is too the Family, does he follow the Oath for the actual line of succession or the one that the man creates?

 

Barristan was defeated and did everything he could. He was captured and his King was killed (by another King's Guard).
I can not fault him for swearing fealty to the man who became the new King, and that showed him mercy and kindness in Barristan's defeat. That was probably more than he ever experienced from Aerys.

Barristan obviously felt at the time, that his Oath was to the Throne not to Aerys.

If kg's oath is to the throne, not aerys or targaryen, and this is the reason barristan abandoned viserys, then three KG at toj should also switch to robert. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

2 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I actually agree with this.

But it does not mean that the three KIng's Guard knew about this. And it does not have any effect on whether Jon is Trueborn.

Right -- the only theoretical question -- which can never matter (assuming fAegon is not Aegon or will die in book 6 and  given that Viserys is dead) -- is what the impact of naming V as heir would have had on Aegon and Jon if all had lived. Was the intent to cut out all of Rhaegar's heirs? Was the intent to cut out only Aegon specifically? Was the intent merely to move Aegon below V in the line of inheritance (which I think is the most likely)? So after the naming, the order might be V - A - J or V - J (with A cut out) or V - ? (with A and J cut out), depending on the answers to those questions.

And that analysis assumes that Aerys even had the "right" to name a different heir. The precedent is unclear on that point. The only time in Targ history that a King died having named someone other than the "normal" heir was the naming of Rhaenyra -- and that naming was never respected, Rhaenyra not being considered ever to have been Queen under "official" Targ history (even her own son apparently never considered her to have been the rightful Queen of Westeros). So an argument can be made that a King cannot successfully name a different heir -- or at least is at serious risk of the naming not being respected.

But this discussion is way off-topic. The answers to these questions are likely irrelevant to the issue at hand, as if the KG at ToJ had no knowledge of the naming of V as heir (seems plausible) and also had knowledge of the death of Aegon (seems likely), then the point is that their behavior makes perfect sense as they would have understandably considered themselves to be guarding the rightful Targ heir to the throne -- fulfilling their primary duty as KG.

[purple-eyes]

Three KG broke their oath anyway when they chose to stay in TOJ after aerys died, at that moment viserys the new heir is technically the new lawful king of targaryen. (Unless they assumed barristan went to guard viserys. )

I am curious to see their opinion on barristan. 

[redtree]

Did the 3 King's Guard get that info? 
Aegon died at least a week after Rhaegar's death, so if they figured out that Aegon had died they'd have known that Aerys made Viserys as his heir because the news from Trident reached KL first. After trident, Aerys decided to make Viserys as an heir, before Aegon's death. Why would they get just half the news ?

So they follow orders from a dead Prince, even after their King dies? And at the cost of protecting the new King?
KG's duty is to death. Brienne is not a KG but she keeps holding on that oath to Cat. the master's death doesn't release the knight from the oath. Brienne is still looking from Sansa because she swore to Catelyn

There is no evidence that Aerys knew where they were, only that he sent someone to find Rhaegar. Do we know if they reported back to Aerys where he was?
Again, they take order from Royals, it doesn't imply about married at all. Even if Aerys didn't know where they were, the only reason would be because Rhaegar kept secret from him which is ridiculous. And that doesn't even look like the case because after Ned reached KL he figured out that Lyanna was in TOJ which means Rhaegar told Aerys and the info spreaded. 

I agree, still not a reason to make the third head a bastard, when he can so easily marry a second wife like Aegon did.
Aegon married his sisters in double Valyrian ceremony with Valyrian tradition that allows poligamy, just like how Maegor wedded his black brides. Still no implication of marriage, less so, a legal marriage

Moved on so much that hears Lyanna say promise me every few paragraphs? Moved on enough that he built a statue in tombs breaking precedent? 
Moved on doesn't mean that he didn't grieve at all. It just means that he accepted that it happened and had let go of his anger. He remembers but he moved on unlike Robert who created a ghost named Lyanna and run to that ghost everytime he feels sad or after he fights with Cersei, or how he dreamt of killing Rhaegar every night
 

And when Aerys died, the King's Guard just follow their last order till the end of time?
Yup, like Brienne to Catelyn

[purple-eyes]

Honestly, Grrm already have a loud answer to those people who decided that since KG are guarding jon so jon must be king. 

He said KG can guard lover, mistress and bastard. 

Through all the history, there is no single case for this, except lyanna and jon snow. This information, IMHO, is written to answer about TOJ and to give heads up to readers that three KG were guarding rhaegar's lover/mistress lyanna and bastard jon at toj.

If lyanna is crown princess carrying a future prince, rhaegar should have tried to negotiate and settle with Ned, not trying to kill them. You do not want to kill your brother in law, right? 

[purple-eyes]

And also, if rhaegar and lyanna eloped to get secretly married, why did people think he abducted her? And why did rhaegar need to hide for one year without telling house stark their daughter is the future queen of westeros? 

Did people think jaehaerys abducted sheira? Or Maegor abducted Arys harroway? 

Rhaegar did not have a marriage card at hand. He can not appease house stark. So he had to defeat them in battle. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

6 minutes ago, redtree said:

Aegon died at least a week after Rhaegar's death, so if they figured out that Aegon had died they'd have known that Aerys made Viserys as his heir because the news from Trident reached KL first. After trident, Aerys decided to make Viserys as an heir, before Aegon's death. Why would they get just half the news ? Because It would have been spread far and wide that Aerys was dead and that Robert was King, it would have been spread from the Rebellion as well as the Targaryen supporters. Viserys being named heir is not even mentioned once in the main series. Only in the Worldbook. It is possible that no one knew this out side of the capitol. It does not seem to be well known. Let alone that they are in a secluded spot, and do not have a reliable way to communicate. The more spread the news is, the more likely they have heard it and vice versa

KG's duty is to death. Brienne is not a KG but she keeps holding on that oath to Cat. the master's death doesn't release the knight from the oath. Brienne is still looking from Sansa because she swore to Catelyn. There is a difference between duty and orders. Yes, their duty was for life and to follow that duty would require AT LEAST ONE OF THEM, to go to the new King Viserys. Not follow an ORDER given by a dead Prince before their King died.

Again, they take order from Royals, it doesn't imply about married at all. Even if Aerys didn't know where they were, the only reason would be because Rhaegar kept secret from him which is ridiculous. And that doesn't even look like the case because after Ned reached KL he figured out that Lyanna was in TOJ which means Rhaegar told Aerys and the info spreaded. 

Rhaegar didn't tell Aerys where he was, if he did why didn't Aerys command his men to bring Lyanna to the Capitol during the early part of the war? Seems like she would be a good piece to use against Ned and Robert?

And Ned discovers the Tower after searching for a little while, most likely after talking to the pro_targaryen forces and asking around. That is not the same as widely known locations

Aegon married his sisters in double Valyrian ceremony with Valyrian tradition that allows poligamy, just like how Maegor wedded his black brides. Still no implication of marriage, less so, a legal marriage

Whether the marriage will be held up afterwards has no bearing on whether Rhaegar and Lyanna got married.

Moved on doesn't mean that he didn't grieve at all. It just means that he accepted that it happened and had let go of his anger. He remembers but he moved on unlike Robert who created a ghost named Lyanna and run to that ghost everytime he feels sad or after he fights with Cersei, or how he dreamt of killing Rhaegar every night

There is a difference between not being angry any more and thinking to your self that the guy who disgraced your sister and made her a simple mistress and fathered a bastard off of her is to honorable to visit a brothel. It seems to me a guy who would do that to your sister would be EXACTLY the kind of guy that would visit a brothel.

Yup, like Brienne to Catelyn

She swore an Oath to finds her daughters... so she keeps looking. Again that was not an order it was an oath. The King's Guard swore and Oath to defend the King, yet they are not at Dragonstone.

 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

8 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Honestly, Grrm already have a loud answer to those people who decided that since KG are guarding jon so jon must be king. 

He said KG can guard lover, mistress and bastard. 

Through all the history, there is no single case for this, except lyanna and jon snow. This information, IMHO, is written to answer about TOJ and to give heads up to readers that three KG were guarding rhaegar's lover/mistress lyanna and bastard jon at toj.

If lyanna is crown princess carrying a future prince, rhaegar should have tried to negotiate and settle with Ned, not trying to kill them. You do not want to kill your brother in law, right? 

So there is precedent of the King's Guard ignoring their new King in order to protect a mistress of a dead Prince after their old King has died?

[purple-eyes]

Like lord Varys said, lyanna seem to have a big personality change during these drama. 

She was kolt and felt she can not be silent when howland was just bullied. She went so far to attend a big tourney for this northern man. 

Then when her father and brother were murdered, 200 northern men were killed, rhaegar left to fight with Ned stark and robert, to guard mad king the enemy of her house, she was totally silent and did not even bother to send a word to Ned or benjen to say she was fine? For one year? And she did not even try to stop rhaegar from fighting Ned and her people to guard aerys? And she did not try to stop KG from killing Ned? Seriously? 

So she was arya at tourney, then she suddenly became sansa during rebellion? 

This is very unnatural IMHO, maybe just got plot wise. But lyanna looks like two people before and after. 

[purple-eyes]

6 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

So there is precedent of the King's Guard ignoring their new King in order to protect a mistress of a dead Prince after their old King has died?

Well, we have another KG who simply killed his lawful king and another KG who took a new boss after old king died. And also another KG who got rid of his king without any order from anyone. And also some KG abandoned their new king and ran to princess with the crown and some KG abandoned their king to go to another prince. Blablabla. 

So yeah, three KG can certainly ignore their lawful new king and guard mistress and bastard whom their prince ordered them to guard. 

Like grrm said: KG had no choice but to obey. If rhaegar ordered them to do something, they had to do it. Even they are unhappy. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

16 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Well, we have another KG who simply killed his lawful king and another KG who took a new boss after old king died. And also another KG who got rid of his king without any order from anyone. And also some KG abandoned their new king and ran to princess with the crown and some KG abandoned their king to go to another prince. Blablabla. 

So yeah, three KG can certainly ignore their lawful new king and guard mistress and bastard whom their prince ordered them to guard. 

Like grrm said: KG had no choice but to obey. If rhaegar ordered them to do something, they had to do it. Even they are unhappy. 

But only those three are thought by the most honorable guy int eh story as a shinning example of what the King's Guard once was.

And yes, they have to obey an order, while Rhaegar was alive... while the King was alive. So what happens if Ned never finds them? The three King's Guard and Lyanna just live at the Tower for the rest of their lives because Rhaegar said to stay there and guard her?

[purple-eyes]

7 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

But only those three are thought by the most honorable guy int eh story as a shinning example of what the King's Guard once was.

And yes, they have to obey an order, while Rhaegar was alive... while the King was alive. So what happens if Ned never finds them? The three King's Guard and Lyanna just live at the Tower for the rest of their lives because Rhaegar said to stay there and guard her?

Rhaegar did not order them to stay there forever. He ordered them to guard lyanna. So they had to guard lyanna wherever she is until she died. They probably planned to take lyanna and jon away to free cities after she got better or died. 

And a order will stay even the person who gave it died. If death can simply stop an order, then what about Robb's will? And after rhaegar died, three KG still stayed there when aerys was alive. So yeah, rhaegar's order was followed after his death. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

9 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Rhaegar did not order them to stay there forever. He ordered them to guard lyanna. So they had to guard lyanna wherever she is until she died. They probably planned to take lyanna and jon away to free cities after she got better or died. 

And a order will stay even the person who gave it died. If death can simply stop an order, then what about Robb's will? And after rhaegar died, three KG still stayed there when aerys was alive. So yeah, rhaegar's order was followed after his death. 

OR, they stayed there till Aerys died, then found themselves guarding who they thought was their new King.