What was Rhaegar Targaryen thinking?

[purple-eyes]

4 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

OR, they stayed there till Aerys died, then found themselves guarding who they thought was their new King.

They probably can not predict aerys will be killed by Jaime. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

10 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

They probably can not predict aerys will be killed by Jaime. 

Who said anything about predicting?.

If Lyanna was a mistress and Jon a bastard:

Rhaegar and Lyanna are at the Tower, they are guarding Rhaegar and  Lyanna. This is fine, they are guarding the Crown Prince

Rhaegar leaves and asks them to stay and guard Lyanna. This is fine, they are following Rhaegar command and there are 4 other KG guarding the rest of the family + an entire army and the Goldcloaks

Rhaegar dies but Aerys is in King's Landing. Aerys is still guarded by Jaime and the Gold Cloaks. This is where it gets sketchy. They are not really breaking their Oaths but should they be staying there when their King needs them? Lyanna is very pregnant so they probably should stay at the Tower.

King's Landing Falls and Aerys and Aegon are dead. The Crown Prince who commanded them is dead, their King is dead, the heir (as far as they know) is dead. Viserys is the new King and he does not have a King's Guard protecting him. ??? Why does it take all three of them to protect a mistress and bastard? Cant one of them stay and the other two go to Viserys?

What would be so bad if the Rebellion found them? Lyanna would be fine, the baby probably is turned over to Robert, but he is just a bastard so no big deal compared to Viserys. So one can stay but the other two need to make a break for Viserys, otherwise they are Oathbreakers. It was OK when they were there while other KG guarded the King and his family, that is why there are 7 of them, so one of them is ALWAYS with the King. but now that is not true, none of them are with the King.

Why didn't at least ONE of them leave to Dragonstone? There are only three answers: They are cowards, they are Oathbreakers or Viserys is not King (at least in their knowledge)

We know that Ned does not think they are Oathbreakers or Cowards, and he is one of the VERY few people who know the entire story, so what does that leave?

 

[RobOsevens]

46 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Who said anything about predicting?.

If Lyanna was a mistress and Jon a bastard:

Rhaegar and Lyanna are at the Tower, they are guarding Rhaegar and  Lyanna. This is fine, they are guarding the Crown Prince

Rhaegar leaves and asks them to stay and guard Lyanna. This is fine, they are following Rhaegar command and there are 4 other KG guarding the rest of the family + an entire army and the Goldcloaks

Rhaegar dies but Aerys is in King's Landing. Aerys is still guarded by Jaime and the Gold Cloaks. This is where it gets sketchy. They are not really breaking their Oaths but should they be staying there when their King needs them? Lyanna is very pregnant so they probably should stay at the Tower.

King's Landing Falls and Aerys and Aegon are dead. The Crown Prince who commanded them is dead, their King is dead, the heir (as far as they know) is dead. Viserys is the new King and he does not have a King's Guard protecting him. ??? Why does it take all three of them to protect a mistress and bastard? Cant one of them stay and the other two go to Viserys?

What would be so bad if the Rebellion found them? Lyanna would be fine, the baby probably is turned over to Robert, but he is just a bastard so no big deal compared to Viserys. So one can stay but the other two need to make a break for Viserys, otherwise they are Oathbreakers. It was OK when they were there while other KG guarded the King and his family, that is why there are 7 of them, so one of them is ALWAYS with the King. but now that is not true, none of them are with the King.

Why didn't at least ONE of them leave to Dragonstone? There are only three answers: They are cowards, they are Oathbreakers or Viserys is not King (at least in their knowledge)

We know that Ned does not think they are Oathbreakers or Cowards, and he is one of the VERY few people who know the entire story, so what does that leave?

 

Jon is the new King and his is the song of ice and fire... oh the question was rhetorical

[Schwarze Sonne]

How could anyone know that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna when they couldn't find where they hid themselves? Did Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna in the open, someone informed on him, or simply accused of?

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 hour ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

How could anyone know that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna when they couldn't find where they hid themselves? Did Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna in the open, someone informed on him, or simply accused of?

While the text is not entirely clear on why people think Rhaegar abducted Lyanna at sword point -- the most logical conclusion is that some people saw something that looked like an abduction at sword point -- and reported it as such. When Rhaegar and Lyanna did not return, the natural conclusion was the Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna. I tend to think that the truth -- as eventually revealed by GRRM -- will be something quite different.

[purple-eyes]

3 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Who said anything about predicting?.

If Lyanna was a mistress and Jon a bastard:

Rhaegar and Lyanna are at the Tower, they are guarding Rhaegar and  Lyanna. This is fine, they are guarding the Crown Prince

Rhaegar leaves and asks them to stay and guard Lyanna. This is fine, they are following Rhaegar command and there are 4 other KG guarding the rest of the family + an entire army and the Goldcloaks

Rhaegar dies but Aerys is in King's Landing. Aerys is still guarded by Jaime and the Gold Cloaks. This is where it gets sketchy. They are not really breaking their Oaths but should they be staying there when their King needs them? Lyanna is very pregnant so they probably should stay at the Tower.

King's Landing Falls and Aerys and Aegon are dead. The Crown Prince who commanded them is dead, their King is dead, the heir (as far as they know) is dead. Viserys is the new King and he does not have a King's Guard protecting him. ??? Why does it take all three of them to protect a mistress and bastard? Cant one of them stay and the other two go to Viserys?

What would be so bad if the Rebellion found them? Lyanna would be fine, the baby probably is turned over to Robert, but he is just a bastard so no big deal compared to Viserys. So one can stay but the other two need to make a break for Viserys, otherwise they are Oathbreakers. It was OK when they were there while other KG guarded the King and his family, that is why there are 7 of them, so one of them is ALWAYS with the King. but now that is not true, none of them are with the King.

Why didn't at least ONE of them leave to Dragonstone? There are only three answers: They are cowards, they are Oathbreakers or Viserys is not King (at least in their knowledge)

We know that Ned does not think they are Oathbreakers or Cowards, and he is one of the VERY few people who know the entire story, so what does that leave?

 

like yourself said before, aerys died, KG now was not bounded to their oath to aerys. So barristan chose to switch to new king Robert and abandon king viserys(barri does not know the existence of king jon, so viserys is king for sure). 

And three KG chose to stick to their beloved prince's order: to guard his last blood, which is a bastard. Just like Those people protected edric storm, who is also a bastard. Because is an important bastard, this is the last acknowledged blood of robert. Same with jon snow. The last child of rhaegar, he has potential to be king. He has king's blood. 

By your logic, nobody should care about edric storm since he is a bastard. 

[OwloftheRainwood]

On 2/3/2016 at 1:53 PM, NervousFiend said:

Rhaegar Targaryen was a pretty smart man, He read alot and was a very intelligent and determined person, Commonfolk loved him, he was a respectful and honorable man, according to Ned.

So how is it that, Rhaegar Targaryen a person that is very smart runs away with a stark girl without thinking of the consequences?

Since he was the Prince and soon to be king, couldn't he somehow manage being with Lyanna stark without starting a war and losing his own life in the end?

What was he really up to? did he actually love Lyanna stark or was he up to something else?

Yes, RT was smart and very well-read, artistic etc. I don't think it's as simple as RT fell in love with Lyanna and runs off without considering the consequences, but that is a possibility. Similar to Harrenhall, I think he made plans that fell through. RT's record in scheme-making and political intrigue is pretty bad. Another example of this is RT's failed attempts to mitigate the insanity of his father. He knows the extent of his father's insanity, but can't act on it forcefully enough because of the Mad King's powerful sycophants and beneficiaries who have stoked the Mad King's paranoia that RT is going to depose him. I think this is the key damping factor that is beyond RT's control. Where RT fails is his obsession with vague prophecy that drives him to try to bring about the PtwP with Lyanna (Ice) to his Fire. Many Targaryens and other characters become obsessed with amorphous prophecies that cause them to do stupid things. Combine that with RT's love for Lyanna and it's not hard to imagine RT hastily made a poorly-thought-out plan (counting on Aerys NOT burning/strangling Starks). The result of this hasty plan - or lack thereof - brought on Robert's Rebellion and the Fall of House Targaryen.

[Sydney Mae]

What was Rhaegar thinking?  He wasn't.  That was the problem.

[redtree]

11 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Because It would have been spread far and wide that Aerys was dead and that Robert was King, it would have been spread from the Rebellion as well as the Targaryen supporters. Viserys being named heir is not even mentioned once in the main series. Only in the Worldbook. It is possible that no one knew this out side of the capitol. It does not seem to be well known. Let alone that they are in a secluded spot, and do not have a reliable way to communicate. The more spread the news is, the more likely they have heard it and vice versa
Everyone knows that Viserys was the next in line which was why he was hunted down by Robert, what are you talking about ? And the notion that Jon is a king also hasn't been mentioned anywhere and has no proof, a mere theory yet you keep pressing on it

There is a difference between duty and orders. Yes, their duty was for life and to follow that duty would require AT LEAST ONE OF THEM, to go to the new King Viserys. Not follow an ORDER given by a dead Prince before their King died.
Quote the sentence then,it's possible that Rhaegar made them swore to stay at TOJ, but nothing about the new king

Rhaegar didn't tell Aerys where he was, if he did why didn't Aerys command his men to bring Lyanna to the Capitol during the early part of the war? Seems like she would be a good piece to use against Ned and Robert? It's not an argument if you posed a question that you also don't know the answer for it. Guessing doesn't count

And Ned discovers the Tower after searching for a little while, most likely after talking to the pro_targaryen forces and asking around. That is not the same as widely known locations. So who is this pro_targaryen forces that you're talking about ? There were only regular knights left in KL after Tywin's massacre, if they knew then Aerys would've known too

Whether the marriage will be held up afterwards has no bearing on whether Rhaegar and Lyanna got married. 
Aegon 1 could forced his marriage and make the HS saw his issues as legal because he got large dragons, Maegor too, and Maegor was much more cruel so the threat of being burned to death was very real. This was from GRRM in SSM. Rhaegar didn't have that kind of power, plus half the kingdom had wanted to see him dead already. Even if they got "married" doesn't mean the Faith which has a big part in god-fearing people and pearl-clutching nobles of Westeros would see the issue as legal.

There is a difference between not being angry any more and thinking to your self that the guy who disgraced your sister and made her a simple mistress and fathered a bastard off of her is to honorable to visit a brothel. It seems to me a guy who would do that to your sister would be EXACTLY the kind of guy that would visit a brothel.
Which was why i said it's because Ned knew Lyanna ran away on her own will, he just said it's her wolf-blood. He had never mentioned about Aerys too who he knew to roasted his father and execute Brandon. He no longer held anger. 

She swore an Oath to finds her daughters... so she keeps looking. Again that was not an order it was an oath. The King's Guard swore and Oath to defend the King, yet they are not at Dragonstone.
They also have duty to obey the royals

 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

On 2/10/2016 at 3:03 PM, purple-eyes said:

like yourself said before, aerys died, KG now was not bounded to their oath to aerys. So barristan chose to switch to new king Robert and abandon king viserys(barri does not know the existence of king jon, so viserys is king for sure). 

I agree, Barristan would think that Viserys is the Targaryen King

And three KG chose to stick to their beloved prince's order: to guard his last blood, which is a bastard. Just like Those people protected edric storm, who is also a bastard. Because is an important bastard, this is the last acknowledged blood of robert. Same with jon snow. The last child of rhaegar, he has potential to be king. He has king's blood. 

That is not true. The 3 King's Guard specifically mention their Oath to Ned when they are talking. They did not swear an oath to Rhaegar to protect his mistress and bastard. They might have been following a command but that is not an Oath. The Oath has really only three logical adherences: The Throne (in this case it would be Robert), The Man (in this case it would be Aerys' heir) and the Family (Also Aerys' heir). The difference in the last two, Man and Family would be if Aerys had selected a non-Targaryen as his heir, the King's Guard would have to decide if they believe that should carry out the King's wishes or maintain the Targaryen rule.

Either way, Their Oath is protect the King, not some mistress and her bastard because the now dead Crown Prince of a now dead King told them to do so. Their Oath right now would either requirte them to kneel to Robert (if they felt he was the true King, which they obviously do not) or go (at least ONE of them) to Viserys, the only known Trueborn son of Aerys that remains... UNLESS Jon is Trueborn. In that case they need to stay and protect him.

If you want to argue that Jon being Rhaegar's bastard makes him an important bastard, that is fine, and that might explain why one of the King's Guard stayed and the Tower, but at least one of them would need to go to Dragonstone to protect the King. Viserys has NO King's Guard at his side. The 3 men even point that out to Ned:

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out.

THEY FLAT OUT TELL YOU RIGHT THERE THAT THEY DO NOT CONSIDER VISERYS THIER KING

So if Viserys is not their King, yet they are still holding up thier Oath. Then who is their King?

By your logic, nobody should care about edric storm since he is a bastard. 

No, my logic would be that the King's Guard wouldn't care about Edric Storm. I am sure his family would

 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

On 2/11/2016 at 7:13 PM, redtree said:

Everyone knows that Viserys was the next in line which was why he was hunted down by Robert, what are you talking about ? And the notion that Jon is a king also hasn't been mentioned anywhere and has no proof, a mere theory yet you keep pressing on it

Everyone knows that Viserys was next in line because everyone else is dead, not becasue Aerys made him his heir.

The distinction being, that if Aerys made Viserys his heir, then Jon being Trueborn would make no difference because he would not be ahead of Viserys in the line of Succession. The point is that, the Kingguard might not have that info... And they do have the info about Jon that no one else has.

Yes, there is no Proof (yet) that Jon is Trueborn, there is ample evidence.
Quote the sentence then,it's possible that Rhaegar made them swore to stay at TOJ, but nothing about the new king

But staying at the Tower at the expense of their Oath to protect the King would make them Oathbreakers. They specifically tell Ned they are there because they swore an Oath. They did not swear an oath to Rhaegar to protect his bastard, they swore and Oath to protect the King.

 It's not an argument if you posed a question that you also don't know the answer for it. Guessing doesn't count What?

So who is this pro_targaryen forces that you're talking about ? There were only regular knights left in KL after Tywin's massacre, if they knew then Aerys would've known too He also went to the Stormlands. He might have talked to men who were loyal to Rhaegar and not Aerys

Aegon 1 could forced his marriage and make the HS saw his issues as legal because he got large dragons, Maegor too, and Maegor was much more cruel so the threat of being burned to death was very real. This was from GRRM in SSM. Rhaegar didn't have that kind of power, plus half the kingdom had wanted to see him dead already. Even if they got "married" doesn't mean the Faith which has a big part in god-fearing people and pearl-clutching nobles of Westeros would see the issue as legal

That still has no bearing on whether they got married. Bank robbery happens everyday even though it is illegal.

They also have duty to obey the royals

Duty is different that an OATH. They did not tell Ned the have a duty to do, they told him they swore an OATH.

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

9 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

[snip]

I agree with all that you have said but want to address a potential "counter argument" i have heard from some in the past -- and explain why I don't think this counter-argument is persuasive.

Some argue that the "Oath" that the KG are referring to is the Oath to obey the royal family -- and so they got an order from Rhaegar -- they are obeying that order because they took an Oath to do so. There are a few problems with this theory.

First, the KG do not really take an Oath to obey all members of the royal family -- only the King and Rhaegar is not King. Now of course, if the King orders them to obey Rhaegar, then obeying Rhaegar is obeying the King. But I doubt they ever really got such an order from the King -- especially not Hightower.

But even if it is assumed that the KG were ordered to obey Rhaegar by the King -- there is still a problem. No one doubts that the KG take an oath to protect the King. In practice, other than under unusual circumstances where the presence of the KG could put the King's life in danger, the King is riding a dragon (and thus impossible to guard) or the King gives a direct and unambiguous order not to protect him -- the KG act in a way that demonstrates they believe their Oath requires that the King have KG protection. For example, after the death of Robert and before the crowning of Joffrey (so Joffrey is only believed to be the "rightful" King but not yet techniclally King -- so analogous to Jon if he is believed to be the "rightful" Targ heir), Selmy tells Ned that Selmy's duty is to go to Joffrey to guard him. So if V is King -- and the KG know that V is without any KG protection -- then even if their Oath covers obeying Rhaegar (even after his death) -- there is a conflicting set of Oaths. In that case, either they need to determine which Oath has primacy or try to cover both Oaths. In the "primacy" evaluation, it is no contest. Ensuring protection for the King would supersede obeying the orders from a dead Crown Prince. But more important, they can try to cover both Oaths by having at least one of the KG go to DS to protect V while the other KG stay at ToJ. But they don't take this action -- and nevertheless emphasize to Ned that their actions are guided by their Oath. That statement by the KG to Ned simply is incoherent if V is the rightful King in their eyes.

Finally, I think there is one additional reason why that line of reasoning is unpersuasive -- and one I don't see made very often but I think is valid. Prior to the death of Aerys, the KG can justify staying at ToJ to guard Rhaegar's mistress and bastard based on a concept of their Oath to obey orders (especially as Aerys always had at least one KG protecting him). But after the death of Aerys, how can the KG know whether the new King wants them to continue to obey Rhaegar's old orders? If the Oath that the KG are referencing to Ned is the Oath to obey orders -- don't the KG have a duty to send one of them to the new King to find out if he has new orders? But again, we know that all 3 KG stay at ToJ. None of them leaves for DS to find out if V has new orders -- or to guard V. In fact, they are dismissive of any obligation to go to V, as KVT IV points out above. Given the emphasis that the KG make to Ned regarding their Oath -- these actions simply make no sense if the KG consider V to be the rightful King. So to stay at ToJ, they must believe that Jon is the rightful King.

And the only way they would consider Jon to be the rightful King over V is if: (1) they know that Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon are dead; (2) they have no knowledge that Aerys named V the new heir; and (3) Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I agree with all that you have said but want to address a potential "counter argument" i have heard from some in the past -- and explain why I don't think this counter-argument is persuasive.

Some argue that the "Oath" that the KG are referring to is the Oath to obey the royal family -- and so they got an order from Rhaegar -- they are obeying that order because they took an Oath to do so. There are a few problems with this theory.

First, the KG do not really take an Oath to obey all members of the royal family -- only the King and Rhaegar is not King. Now of course, if the King orders them to obey Rhaegar, then obeying Rhaegar is obeying the King. But I doubt they ever really got such an order from the King -- especially not Hightower.

But even if it is assumed that the KG were ordered to obey Rhaegar by the King -- there is still a problem. No one doubts that the KG take an oath to protect the King. In practice, other than under unusual circumstances where the presence of the KG could put the King's life in danger, the King is riding a dragon (and thus impossible to guard) or the King gives a direct and unambiguous order not to protect him -- the KG act in a way that demonstrates they believe their Oath requires that the King have KG protection. For example, after the death of Robert and before the crowning of Joffrey (so Joffrey is only believed to be the "rightful" King but not yet techniclally King -- so analogous to Jon if he is believed to be the "rightful" Targ heir), Selmy tells Ned that Selmy's duty is to go to Joffrey to guard him. So if V is King -- and the KG know that V is without any KG protection -- then even if their Oath covers obeying Rhaegar (even after his death) -- there is a conflicting set of Oaths. In that case, either they need to determine which Oath has primacy or try to cover both Oaths. In the "primacy" evaluation, it is no contest. Ensuring protection for the King would supersede obeying the orders from a dead Crown Prince. But more important, they can try to cover both Oaths by having at least one of the KG go to DS to protect V while the other KG stay at ToJ. But they don't take this action -- and nevertheless emphasize to Ned that their actions are guided by their Oath. That statement by the KG to Ned simply is incoherent if V is the rightful King in their eyes.

Finally, I think there is one additional reason why that line of reasoning is unpersuasive -- and one I don't see made very often but I think is valid. Prior to the death of Aerys, the KG can justify staying at ToJ to guard Rhaegar's mistress and bastard based on a concept of their Oath to obey orders (especially as Aerys always had at least one KG protecting him). But after the death of Aerys, how can the KG know whether the new King wants them to continue to obey Rhaegar's old orders? If the Oath that the KG are referencing to Ned is the Oath to obey orders -- don't the KG have a duty to send one of them to the new King to find out if he has new orders? But again, we know that all 3 KG stay at ToJ. None of them leaves for DS to find out if V has new orders -- or to guard V. In fact, they are dismissive of any obligation to go to V, as KVT IV points out above. Given the emphasis that the KG make to Ned regarding their Oath -- these actions simply make no sense if the KG consider V to be the rightful King. So to stay at ToJ, they must believe that Jon is the rightful King.

And the only way they would consider Jon to be the rightful King over V is if: (1) they know that Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon are dead; (2) they have no knowledge that Aerys named V the new heir; and (3) Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

Well said. You always make it so much easier to understand than I do.

Bravo.

[redtree]

Everyone knows that Viserys was next in line because everyone else is dead, not becasue Aerys made him his heir.The distinction being, that if Aerys made Viserys his heir, then Jon being Trueborn would make no difference because he would not be ahead of Viserys in the line of Succession. The point is that, the Kingguard might not have that info... And they do have the info about Jon that no one else has. Yes, there is no Proof (yet) that Jon is Trueborn, there is ample evidence
Aerys proclaiming Viserys his heir after Rhaegar's death and skipping Aegon and Rhaenys couldn't be a small thing, it would be huge because he broke a tradition. Red Keep would had known and if those KGs figured out that Rhaegar and Aerys were already death, they would had figured out that Viserys was the then time Targaryen king too. Skipping the traditionally legal heir is not a small court gossip stuff, it's a huge deal. Those KGs being there is not an evidence of anything

But staying at the Tower at the expense of their Oath to protect the King would make them Oathbreakers. They specifically tell Ned they are there because they swore an Oath. They did not swear an oath to Rhaegar to protect his bastard, they swore and Oath to protect the King.
Their oath is not limited to protect but also to obey the royals commands and protect their secret

What?
The question you posed before, do you know the answer for sure or is it just another guess based on a scenario that you invented ?

He also went to the Stormlands. He might have talked to men who were loyal to Rhaegar and not Aerys
The Tyrell was there, so you think it's logical that Rhaegar told Mace and or his cronies but not Aerys whom he had to face. That makes sense

That still has no bearing on whether they got married. Bank robbery happens everyday even though it is illegal. 
Exactly, just because it happened doesn't make it legal. Just because they said the words and stand in front of heart tree or what not doesn't make it a legal marriage. Aegon 4 wed merry meg too, still didn't count as marriage and their children were bastards

Duty is different that an OATH. They did not tell Ned the have a duty to do, they told him they swore an OATH.
I replied this above, one of their oath is to obey

 

[redtree]

1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

First, the KG do not really take an Oath to obey all members of the royal family -- only the King and Rhaegar is not King. Now of course, if the King orders them to obey Rhaegar, then obeying Rhaegar is obeying the King. But I doubt they ever really got such an order from the King -- especially not Hightower.

Gerold's order from Aerys was to find Rhaegar not to stay wherever he find him, well he eventually did but while Rhaegar returned, he did not. So it was either he obeyed Rhaegar's order or it was Aerys telling him to stay there. Why would Aerys told him to stay at TOJ ? Unless Lyanna was a prisoner there's no reason for him to stay at TOJ unless Rhaegar told him to do so which means KG doesn't only take order strictly from the king but the other royals too. And their oath and vow, includes the word obey

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

40 minutes ago, redtree said:

1:Aerys proclaiming Viserys his heir after Rhaegar's death and skipping Aegon and Rhaenys couldn't be a small thing, it would be huge because he broke a tradition. Red Keep would had known and if those KGs figured out that Rhaegar and Aerys were already death, they would had figured out that Viserys was the then time Targaryen king too. Skipping the traditionally legal heir is not a small court gossip stuff, it's a huge deal. Those KGs being there is not an evidence of anything

2:Their oath is not limited to protect but also to obey the royals commands and protect their secret

3:The question you posed before, do you know the answer for sure or is it just another guess based on a scenario that you invented ?

4:The Tyrell was there, so you think it's logical that Rhaegar told Mace and or his cronies but not Aerys whom he had to face. That makes sense

5:Exactly, just because it happened doesn't make it legal. Just because they said the words and stand in front of heart tree or what not doesn't make it a legal marriage. Aegon 4 wed merry meg too, still didn't count as marriage and their children were bastards

6:I replied this above, one of their oath is to obey

1: Yes, it was huge that he broke tradition, but how would have the King's Guard learned of this? This would not be something that they could send directly, as there is not a rookery at the Tower. And would this be something they would send to other Dorne Lords... that they basically just jumped the relation to the Dornes from being King?

And, fight it all you want, all three of the King's Guard being there is HUGE.

Even if they heard about Viserys, then that says something as well, it says they did not recognize Viserys as their King.

Either way, all three of the King Guard being at the Tower is MAJOR evidence of something. Either they knew Viserys was Aerys' heir and did not recognize it and think that bastard Jon was King OR Jon was Trueborn and they thought he was King.

2: The Oath was not limited to that.. but it is the PRIMARY part of the Oath. How can they possibly think to themselves, it is no big deal that Viserys is unguarded and that there are three of them protecting a bastard and a mistress instead?

3: Yeah I am giving up on this one, no idea what you are talking about

4: Were the Tyrells the only ones there? Were the Tyrells the only ones that Ned encountered since leaving King's Landing?

5: I am not arguing about the validity of the marriage. Maybe it would have stood up, maybe not. I dont know. They only thing I am saying is that at some point Rhaegar and Lyanna had a ceremonyand married each other. That is it.Whether people recognize it or not we will see. But it looks like the the Three King's Guard recognized it.

6: Again, obeying is like the fine print of the Oath. Really? They can ignore the primary part of the Oath as long as they are following a minor part in the time of a war when the King is unguarded?

[purple-eyes]

7 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

1: Yes, it was huge that he broke tradition, but how would have the King's Guard learned of this? This would not be something that they could send directly, as there is not a rookery at the Tower. And would this be something they would send to other Dorne Lords... that they basically just jumped the relation to the Dornes from being King?

And, fight it all you want, all three of the King's Guard being there is HUGE.

Even if they heard about Viserys, then that says something as well, it says they did not recognize Viserys as their King.

Either way, all three of the King Guard being at the Tower is MAJOR evidence of something. Either they knew Viserys was Aerys' heir and did not recognize it and think that bastard Jon was King OR Jon was Trueborn and they thought he was King.

2: The Oath was not limited to that.. but it is the PRIMARY part of the Oath. How can they possibly think to themselves, it is no big deal that Viserys is unguarded and that there are three of them protecting a bastard and a mistress instead?

3: Yeah I am giving up on this one, no idea what you are talking about

4: Were the Tyrells the only ones there? Were the Tyrells the only ones that Ned encountered since leaving King's Landing?

5: I am not arguing about the validity of the marriage. Maybe it would have stood up, maybe not. I dont know. They only thing I am saying is that at some point Rhaegar and Lyanna had a ceremonyand married each other. That is it.Whether people recognize it or not we will see. But it looks like the the Three King's Guard recognized it.

6: Again, obeying is like the fine print of the Oath. Really? They can ignore the primary part of the Oath as long as they are following a minor part in the time of a war when the King is unguarded?

i think Rhaegar ordered all three KG there because he was worried Aerys will ask KG about where Lyanna is and KG had to answer, so this is for secrecy reason. Not because he thought Lyanna is carrying the future king of Westeros.

 

 

 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

5 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

i think Rhaegar ordered all three KG there because he was worried Aerys will ask KG about where Lyanna is and KG had to answer, so this is for secrecy reason. Not because he thought Lyanna is carrying the future king of Westeros.

And after Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon are killed?

Why do all three stay?

[UnmaskedLurker]

57 minutes ago, redtree said:

Everyone knows that Viserys was next in line because everyone else is dead, not becasue Aerys made him his heir.The distinction being, that if Aerys made Viserys his heir, then Jon being Trueborn would make no difference because he would not be ahead of Viserys in the line of Succession. The point is that, the Kingguard might not have that info... And they do have the info about Jon that no one else has. Yes, there is no Proof (yet) that Jon is Trueborn, there is ample evidence
Aerys proclaiming Viserys his heir after Rhaegar's death and skipping Aegon and Rhaenys couldn't be a small thing, it would be huge because he broke a tradition. Red Keep would had known and if those KGs figured out that Rhaegar and Aerys were already death, they would had figured out that Viserys was the then time Targaryen king too. Skipping the traditionally legal heir is not a small court gossip stuff, it's a huge deal. Those KGs being there is not an evidence of anything

But staying at the Tower at the expense of their Oath to protect the King would make them Oathbreakers. They specifically tell Ned they are there because they swore an Oath. They did not swear an oath to Rhaegar to protect his bastard, they swore and Oath to protect the King.
Their oath is not limited to protect but also to obey the royals commands and protect their secret

What?
The question you posed before, do you know the answer for sure or is it just another guess based on a scenario that you invented ?

He also went to the Stormlands. He might have talked to men who were loyal to Rhaegar and not Aerys
The Tyrell was there, so you think it's logical that Rhaegar told Mace and or his cronies but not Aerys whom he had to face. That makes sense

That still has no bearing on whether they got married. Bank robbery happens everyday even though it is illegal. 
Exactly, just because it happened doesn't make it legal. Just because they said the words and stand in front of heart tree or what not doesn't make it a legal marriage. Aegon 4 wed merry meg too, still didn't count as marriage and their children were bastards

Duty is different that an OATH. They did not tell Ned the have a duty to do, they told him they swore an OATH.
I replied this above, one of their oath is to obey

 

We have no idea how wide spread news got of this naming (assuming it happened, which I will for this purpose). We know that in the main series the naming of V as heir is not mentioned even once. Robb's will naming Jon is not "secret" but not that many people know about it. It is not implausible that more people would know about the deaths of Aerys and Aegon than knew about the naming of Viserys. So whatever source of information the KG have at ToJ regarding events taking place in KL, it is not hard to believe they could know about the deaths and not the naming. The theory I support only requires that I demonstrate that it is plausible that the KG could find out about the deaths and not the naming. Your preferred theory requires demonstrating that it is completely implausible for them to find out about the deaths and not the naming. It is irrelevent what is "more likely" -- I only need to show that it is plausible that it could have happened. It is not implausible -- there are multiple alternative fact patterns that could explain how they could learn about the deaths and not the naming. I don't know why you think that eventuality is so highly unlikely. 

I addressed the entire protect/obey debate in my last post. I don't think I need to do so again. But I will just repeat that even their general oath to "obey" cannot explain their behavior and comments to Ned adequately.

I have no idea what the prior question was -- so I will skip that point.

I have no idea whether the polygamous marriage would be accepted by the people of Westeros (or at least the ones that matter). But if Rhaegar tells the KG that he is married to Lyanna -- they are going to go with his reading of the law (as you point out -- they must obey), so the KG will consider them to be married. The legality otherwise is completely irrelevant. Rhaegar has family precedent -- the KG are going to go with his legal interpretation and consider Rhaegar and Lyanna married if they say their marriage is legit. The views of others is irrelevant to this particular discussion.

Again, I have already addressed the protect/obey issue. 

49 minutes ago, redtree said:

Gerold's order from Aerys was to find Rhaegar not to stay wherever he find him, well he eventually did but while Rhaegar returned, he did not. So it was either he obeyed Rhaegar's order or it was Aerys telling him to stay there. Why would Aerys told him to stay at TOJ ? Unless Lyanna was a prisoner there's no reason for him to stay at TOJ unless Rhaegar told him to do so which means KG doesn't only take order strictly from the king but the other royals too. And their oath and vow, includes the word obey

I highly doubt that Aerys told Hightower to stay at ToJ. The popular theory -- that I find persuasive -- is that Rhaegar boxed Hightower into a corner. Hightower needed to fulfill his mission to get Rhaegar back to KL. Rhaegar needed to keep the location of ToJ secret from Aerys to keep Lyanna safe -- but if any of the KG returned to KL, Aerys would order them to tell him the location and they would have to obey and tell him. So Rhaegar told Hightower that Rhaegar would return to KL only if Hightower stayed at ToJ with the other 2 KG.  As long as Aerys never explicitly ordered Hightower to return with Rhaegar -- and as long as Aerys has other KG protecting Aerys -- Hightower could fulfill his mission from Aerys only be agreeing to stay -- and would not be breaking his Oath.

But once Rhaegar,Aerys and Aegon are dead -- the Oath taken by Hightower and the other KG would require them to change course and send at least one KG to DS to be with V -- UNLESS -- they now are guarding the person they believe to be the rightful heir -- Jon.

[purple-eyes]

Just now, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

And after Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon are killed?

Why do all three stay?

Because loyal kg will not abandon their order? you know, Robb's will would still work after his death.