NervousFiend

What was Rhaegar Targaryen thinking?

281 posts in this topic

"Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that prophecy is like a treacherous woman.  She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams.  That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan.  Prophecy will bite your prick off every time."

I think Rhaegar tossed common sense to the wind in an attempt to fulfill prophecy. Prophecy bit his prick off.

EDIT: ...the bloodied prick, of course, doesn't mean he failed to fulfill said prophecy. Whether he did or not remains to be seen.

Edited by kimim

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1 minute ago, kimim said:

"Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that prophecy is like a treacherous woman.  She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams.  That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan.  Prophecy will bite your prick off every time."

I think Rhaegar tossed common sense to the wind in an attempt to fulfill prophecy. Prophecy bit his prick off.

Well, I agree -- sort of. I think that anyone in that world who believes that a vague prophecy can accurately be interpreted and specifically acted upon is a fool. On the other hand, anyone who dismisses prophecy as mere superstition also is a fool, as prophecy in that world clearly is real.

Rhaegar almost certainly got aspects of the prophecy wrong. The readers can fairly confidently conclude that. Rhaegar also might have died, in part, as a result of his desire to fulfill the prophecy. In that sense, you are correct.

On the other hand, Rhaegar's foremost goal seemed to be to ensure that TPTWP is in a position to save the world. It appears that Rhaegar may have succeeded at causing that to happen -- by being the father of Jon. So in that sense, Rhaegar's pursuant of the prophecy may be what allowed the prophecy to occur -- and in the end -- allow the world to be saved. So in that sense, Rhaegar may be proved to have been right in some sense all along -- and may turn out to have been successful at achieving his principal goal. The readers won't know until the series is finished -- but the clues seem to point in that direction.

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1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Rhaegar's pursuant of the prophecy may be what allowed the prophecy to occur -- and in the end -- allow the world to be saved.

ita. 

The nature of prophecy is a mystery. Certainly in Martin's world, it's real. Whether you must act to bring it about or whether it's fated to happen is the elephant in the room. So far, we hear about a single successful response to prophecy--the Targ move to escape the Doom. The rest are failures. Rhaegar goofs once--he thinks he is the Prince, but it turns out he is not. Dany's vision in HotU implies that Rhaegar believes Aegon is the Prince, and there he is wrong again, as the consequences of Rhaegar's actions kill Aegon. Even if Griff-Aegon is real, Rhaegar might still be off, as Aemon believes that Dany is the "Prince." Rhaegar might believe that Jon will be the third head of the dragon, but he might, again, be wrong. Jon might save humanity, but not because he is the third head of the dragon...and then, Jon might not save humanity, at all. 

It's a huge mess.

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5 hours ago, Greymoon said:

=> this points at a failed political plot imo, yet people prefer to view Rhaegar as a prophecy oriented fool.

I agree with you on everything you said, Though I don't understand why the Prince gave the purple flowers to Lyanna? that was a wrong choice if you're right on the motivations of him.

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3 minutes ago, kimim said:

ita. 

The nature of prophecy is a mystery. Certainly in Martin's world, it's real. Whether you must act to bring it about or whether it's fated to happen is the elephant in the room. So far, we hear about a single successful response to prophecy--the Targ move to escape the Doom. The rest are failures. Rhaegar goofs once--he thinks he is the Prince, but it turns out he is not. Dany's vision in HotU implies that Rhaegar believes Aegon is the Prince, and there he is wrong again, as the consequences of Rhaegar's actions kill Aegon. Even if Griff-Aegon is real, Rhaegar might still be off, as Aemon believes that Dany is the "Prince." Rhaegar might believe that Jon will be the third head of the dragon, but he might, again, be wrong. Jon might save humanity, but not because he is the third head of the dragon...and then, Jon might not save humanity, at all. 

It's a huge mess.

There is a theory that Rhaegar was right when he thought he was TPwwP/ AAR; basically that his kids are his attempts at Lightbringer. Rhaegar had two children and the first two failed to be Lightbringer. Lyanna was Nissa Nissa and her dying is what created Jon to be Lightbringer.

 

I am not saying that this is true, but it is hard to say that Rhaegar failed at the prophesy at all when we dont know the answer to the prophecy yet ourselves.

 

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1 minute ago, kimim said:

ita. 

The nature of prophecy is a mystery. Certainly in Martin's world, it's real. Whether you must act to bring it about or whether it's fated to happen is the elephant in the room. So far, we hear about a single successful response to prophecy--the Targ move to escape the Doom. The rest are failures. Rhaegar goofs once--he thinks he is the Prince, but it turns out he is not. Dany's vision in HotU implies that Rhaegar believes Aegon is the Prince, and there he is wrong again, as the consequences of Rhaegar's actions kill Aegon. Even if Griff-Aegon is real, Rhaegar might still be off, as Aemon believes that Dany is the "Prince." Rhaegar might believe that Jon will be the third head of the dragon, but he might, again, be wrong. Jon might save humanity, but not because he is the third head of the dragon...and then, Jon might not save humanity, at all. 

It's a huge mess.

Yes, that is basically what I think. To be more specific, I think that in Martin's world (as well as most other literature where prophecy is "real"), prophecy is best understood merely as a vision of the future -- often an abstract and difficult to understand vision -- but a vision nonetheless. And as a "true" vision of the future, there is no way to make it happen or to stop it from happening. And trying to interpret it usually goes awry -- the proverbial self-fulfililng prophecy, where the attempt to avoid the prophecy is what causes the prophecy to occur (Cersei likely being the victim of such a prophecy).

Now in the case of TPTWP prophecy, if Rhaegar's attempt to fulfill the prophecy is what led to Jon being born and Jon ultimately is TPTWP who is instrumental in saving the world -- then Rhaegar's actions will have been sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy (except Rhaegar was trying to fulfill it -- not avoid it). But if prophecy really is just a vision of the future -- then everything that is done in response to finding out about the prophecy -- whether to make it happen or try to avoid it -- would be part of whatever series of events ultimately led to the vision being accurate in the first place.

Essentially, I believe that there is only one time line -- and the prophecy sees into the future of that time line (even if represented in a symbolic and unclear manner). Whatever everyone did that led to that result already happened "in the past" regarding the time at which the prophecy is taking place -- but much of those actions are still "in the future" as of the time the prophecy is being seen. This "time paradox" puts the characters in a position where the readers might conclude that the characters seem not to have free will -- but they do -- the prophecy merely knows the ultimate result of what will happen after each of the characters exercises his or her free will. And part of that free will is how the characters react to finding out about the prophecy (i.e., the "time paradox").

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2 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

If the consequences are in question then we've yet to see them fulfilled if he indeed had a child with Lyanna. We can only guess the reasoning but my belief is Lyanna was TKatLT, the sigil was a carved weirwood face & this was the sign he was waiting for. We are given limited information on the prophecy of TPtwP, we know he believed he was but that tells us very little as to what it entailed or whether he died believing he was..

But in this case, himself, as the promised prince and azor ahai, died,  right? 

So a sword was born, but who is the one (aa) who wield it? 

Dany? Then he is wrong again. 

I thjnk I quoted wrong one. 

 

Edited by purple-eyes

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44 minutes ago, NervousFiend said:

I agree with you on everything you said, Though I don't understand why the Prince gave the purple flowers to Lyanna? that was a wrong choice if you're right on the motivations of him.

The thing with the crown is somewhat covered in this theory.  Basically, Lyanna was the KotLT, Aerys was paranoid about the identity of the KotLT, so she couldn't reveal herself...but Rhaegar did in fact know who the knight of the laughing tree was and crowned Lyanna because he admired her courage and high moral standards.

The theory implies that Rhaegar did not set out to humiliate Elia, or to cheat on her. Rather it looks at R+L as the result of circumstances.

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56 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

There is a theory that Rhaegar was right when he thought he was TPwwP/ AAR; basically that his kids are his attempts at Lightbringer. Rhaegar had two children and the first two failed to be Lightbringer. Lyanna was Nissa Nissa and her dying is what created Jon to be Lightbringer.

 

I am not saying that this is true, but it is hard to say that Rhaegar failed at the prophesy at all when we dont know the answer to the prophecy yet ourselves.

 

 

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58 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

There is a theory that Rhaegar was right when he thought he was TPwwP/ AAR; basically that his kids are his attempts at Lightbringer. Rhaegar had two children and the first two failed to be Lightbringer. Lyanna was Nissa Nissa and her dying is what created Jon to be Lightbringer.

 

I am not saying that this is true, but it is hard to say that Rhaegar failed at the prophesy at all when we dont know the answer to the prophecy yet ourselves.

 

Then aerys probably thought so too. He tried twice. 

Rhaegar and viserys turned out to be wrong and failed. Third one dany bring light back by dragons. 

Rhaella is nisa nisa. 

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57 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

This "time paradox" puts the characters in a position where the readers might conclude that the characters seem not to have free will -- but they do -- the prophecy merely knows the ultimate result of what will happen after each of the characters exercises his or her free will. And part of that free will is how the characters react to finding out about the prophecy (i.e., the "time paradox").

ita again. This is all very Boethian--that God or prophecy knows what will happen does not mean that the character has no free will. In order to fulfill prophecy, which will be fulfilled in any case, Rhaegar, of his own free will, makes a series of decisions which he was fated to make. Ah, the irony. This also means judgment is possible. I'm judging his decisions problematic, whether they ultimately work to save humanity or not.

edit: That, of course, makes me Goddess :)

 

 

 

Edited by kimim

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7 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Then aerys probably thought so too. He tried twice. 

Rhaegar and viserys turned out to be wrong and failed. Third one dany bring light back by dragons. 

Rhaella is nisa nisa. 

Aerys and Rhaella had like eight kids, a lot of them died either immediately or in their first year.

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The key is that daenys dreamed that valyria is doomed, so it is clear and set by destiny. 

But all we know is that rhaegar read some books. 

That is highly unpredictable and has high chance to be wrong. 

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2 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Aerys and Rhaella had like eight kids, a lot of them died either immediately or in their first year.

All we know is that aa made three complete swords which he thought as light bringers . We have no idea how much unfinished prototypes he made. 

And elia does not look like water or lion. 

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Just now, purple-eyes said:

All we know is that aa made three complete swords which he thought as light bringers . We have no idea how much unfinished prototypes he made. 

And elia does not look like water or lion. 

I am not arguing the validity of this theory, I just pointed out that is there.

 

I swear if I said the sky was blue you would immediately take the other side and argue it with me.

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8 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I am not arguing the validity of this theory, I just pointed out that is there.

 

I swear if I said the sky was blue you would immediately take the other side and argue it with me.

No I will not. The sky is beautifully blue today. 

The thing is, if I see enough proof, I will accept it. 

Like I agree lyanna is kolt. 

But, a rescue as abduction? 

No, not true at all.

Edited by purple-eyes

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Lot of people say Lyanna died just from child birth,

 

but TPTWP had to kill his loved one to obtain Lightbringer no?

 

Perhaps Rhaegar had more of hand in her death other than planting Jon in her belly.. idk. 

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25 minutes ago, Thuckey said:

Lot of people say Lyanna died just from child birth,

 

but TPTWP had to kill his loved one to obtain Lightbringer no?

 

Perhaps Rhaegar had more of hand in her death other than planting Jon in her belly.. idk. 

Rhaegar died at the Trident well before Lyanna died at ToJ. The description of how Lyanna died -- taken together with the logical conclusion that Jon is her son -- is most consistent with puerperal fever (i.e., complications from childbirth). 

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26 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Rhaegar died at the Trident well before Lyanna died at ToJ. The description of how Lyanna died -- taken together with the logical conclusion that Jon is her son -- is most consistent with puerperal fever (i.e., complications from childbirth). 

 

True, however he was learned in the arts of certain magic and poisons and crap like that if I remember correctly. He possibly could have poisoned her and time it so she'd die only after giving birth maybe? Meh, sort of crackpot but I'm just going by the whole "killed his lover" Azor Ahai thing which I THINK Rheagar was trying to emulate.. In which case maybe he was going nuts like his father.

 

Or at the very least perhaps he had plans to sacrifice her, but fate intervened as his was not in fact TPTWP if one even exists. 

 

Blergh, I just don't know George hurry up and write the series so many questions that need answering are driving me NUTS!! haha.

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