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What was Rhaegar Targaryen thinking?


NervousFiend

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I love when people pretend to know all about Rhaegar/Lyanna's motivation and its connection to AA and TPtwP. Thankfully George hasn't revealed anything that tells us this definitively, I stand by my wait & see policy, the repercussions hinge on future events, all you Rhaegar haters imo are headed towards being disappointed..

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32 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

I love when people pretend to know all about Rhaegar/Lyanna's motivation and its connection to AA and TPtwP. Thankfully George hasn't revealed anything that tells us this definitively, I stand by my wait & see policy, the repercussions hinge on future events, all you Rhaegar haters imo are headed towards being disappointed..

Why? Although nothing is confirmed yet, but we know pretty much all the possibilities. We just do not know which specific way grrm is heading. 

Among all the possibilities, even Rhaegar did everything only to bring a Jesus to the world, he still does not deserve those wonderful and flawless comments he received in the book. 

 

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To be fair, I do not specifically hate rhaegar. I just do not like even he is doing something like aegon IV, still people seem to be completely blind to his fault and keep hailing him as a perfect man. Why did not paris of Troy receive this benefit since he is pretty much a duplicate of rhaegar? 

And it is almost annoying to see grrm kept making people stuck in their permanent obsessions in rhaegar, such as joncon and cersei. Seriously, for a genius author like grrm, can not he find another good reason to make joncon devoted to aegon except he is gay and mad in love with rhaegar for 17 years? 

 

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2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

1) Did he? Darn. I have a hard time recalling anyone voicing such objections.

2)Does he? Goodness, finally someone who knows what actually happened! Not hearsay and gossip, but actual facts! Spare no detail, please.

3) Does he?

4) This is an excellent question! Where was Rhaegar all this time? I don't remember an actual account of the missing Rhaegar time.

5) Huh. So we know where he was all that time, and we know what he was doing all that time. I'm almost ashamed to ask, but how do we know all that?

6) And why, if that's so obvious, nobody in the whole wide world doesn't appear to see that? There's one Robert, hating Rhaegar on strictly personal grounds, and that's it. The "irresponsible, detached from reality, monumentally dumb" assessment of the corpse formerly known as Crown Prince should be universal. Yet it's not. Is there any other character in the history of Westeros, ancient, recent or anything in between, who gets such an obviously undeserved, nearly universal free pass?

I admit chuckling several times while reading your post, though I think that it would be beneficial to our discussion if you assumed at least some amount of goodwill from my part.

Obviously, I'm not GRRM and and don't know with certainty what has happened with Rhaegar. So, for the rest of my post, you can assume that I preface my every sentence with: Using my knowledge of the book and SSMs, as well as my cognitive ability, common sense and emotions, I hereby make the following statement: . With that in mind, let's move on.

 

1) I'm making a very commonsensical logic assumption here. Important lords knew they were invited to Harrenhall tourney as a part of informal Great Council. To achieve Aerys' deposion, great lords needed unity under Rhaegar's leadership. And yet, these same lords, saw Rhaegar's actions a) pissing of heir to the North (so much that he had to be physically restrained) b ) pissing of Stormlands Lord (those who knew him better) and c ) pissing of Martells (again, I'm making a commonsensical assumption that Martells weren't happy with Elia's treatment by Rhaegar; and I'm basing this on the SSM which said that one of the reasons that Dorne supplied Rhaegar with only 10k men was the fact that they were unhappy with his treatment of Elia).

Thus, these lords were supposed to see Rhaegar presenting himself as a rational and sensible leader, one that they could rally behind. Instead they saw Rhaegar pissing off 3 Paramount Houses in an event that was supposed to win them over.

2) I don't see what's questionable here. It was noted in-story (in WOIAF, if I recall correctly) that Rhaegar adbucted Lyanna near Harrenhgall after the tourney.

3) Seeing how Rhaegar and Lyanna were nowehere to be found (and in the crisis that followed both of them were highly sought after), seeing how TOJ is a pretty secluded place and seeing how Lyanna died at the TOJ holding what was in all likelihood Rhaegar's gift; I find it very logical to think that R+L indeed went to TOJ. If you have any better idea, I'm eagerly listening.

4) and 5) It was noted a few times by characters that Rhaegar dissapeared after he went off with Lyanna. Now, I believe that we can be sure that R+L were highly sought after their disappearance. They're the ones who started it, and they're the ones whose appearence could help to solve several things. Moreover, Starks and Robert would look for Lyanna out of love and familial obligations. They would look for Rhaegar as well (if nothing else, to capture a Crown Prince), while loyalist forces would also do the same. Thus – the fact that the both of them weren't found despite much effort suggest they they hid somewhere. Seeing how TOJ is a secluded place and Lyanna's place of death – yes, I assumed that they were at the TOJ the entire time. If you have alternate ideas – I'm all ears.

And, by the way, here you missed (likely intentionally) the entire point of my argument. Rhegar's actions helped to cause shitstorm. I'm not criticizing R for being at the TOJ/wherever, I'm criticizing him for not being in a position where he could have at least tried to solve things peacefully. The realm was plunging towards civil war, and he went off somewhere. Instead of maybe arriving at the KL as soon as Brandon was captured. The timeline between Brandon's capture (beginning of the shitstorm) and Aerys' demand for Ned's and Bob's heads (the final straw) was a month or two at least, and maybe more. Rhaegar could have used that time to try....something. Instead, as characters in-story noted, he was nowhere to be seen.

6) I'm guessing because noone understood the degree he was obsessed with the prophecy. But take a look at these two cold-stone facts:

- during the tourney of Harrenhall, Rhaegar broke all social norms ans alienated many powerful potential allies.

- while the civil war was brewing, and for the duration of the most of it – Rhaegar went missing somewhere.

Judging from these two – how am I to characterize Rhaegar's behavior as anything other than monumentally dumb and irresponsible?

 

One more thing strikes me as ironic with Rhaegar – he was noted as a fine scholar by the text; and yet he apparently learns nothing from the history of his very own family.

- he learns nothing from Aegon IV, who legitimized all of his bastards and drove the realm towards many centuries of Targ vs Blackfyre wars. Rhaegar wanted to re-create the circumstances and potentially enable new round of internal wars in Westeros (Elia's children vs Lyanna's children)

- he learns nothing from Maegor the Cruel, who alienated the Faith with his polygamy. What followed are bloody wars between the king and Faith and countless dead (ergo, Faith can be a powerful foe). And Rheagar, unlike Meagor, doesn't even have dragons as a superweapon.

- he learned nothing from Duncan the Tall, whose refusal to marry a Baratheon daughter led to an open rebellion of Stormlands. Lesson here would be: don't anger powerful Paramount houses, and yet Rhaegar angers 3 of them with his behavior at the tourney

- again he learns nothing from Aegon IV, who was the only known person, other than himself, who wanted to crown his mistress/potential mistress as a QOLAB instead of his wife

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6 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

How can you think Rhaegar raped Lyanna?

That's not the topic of this discussion. 

As it happens, even if Rhaegar and Lyanna ran away together Romeo and Juliet style he'd still be utterly insane. 

He was raised to believe he'd be part of a prophecy. That's why his parents were married; a wood witch claimed someone from Aerys's line would be "the prince that was promised". Being a Targaryen, he was probably also raised to believe that his last name made him intrinsically better than anyone else. And being Aerys's son, he probably had to grow up surrounded by his father's crazy. Not a recipe for a well-adjusted individual.

Therefore, whether a seducer or a rapist, Rhaegar was a prophecy-mad narcissist who threw a monkey wrench in The Seven Kingdom's chances of attaining peace and therefore deserved to have his lungs caved in with a hammer. 

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2 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

To be fair, I do not specifically hate rhaegar. I just do not like even he is doing something like aegon IV, still people seem to be completely blind to his fault and keep hailing him as a perfect man. Why did not paris of Troy receive this benefit since he is pretty much a duplicate of rhaegar? 

Hector of Troy: " You say you're willing to die for love but you know nothing about dying and you know nothing about love!"

It is annoying to see people idolize him and claim that he did nothing wrong.

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11 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

1) I'm making a very commonsensical logic assumption here. Important lords knew they were invited to Harrenhall tourney as a part of informal Great Council. To achieve Aerys' deposion, great lords needed unity under Rhaegar's leadership. And yet, these same lords, saw Rhaegar's actions a) pissing of heir to the North (so much that he had to be physically restrained) b ) pissing of Stormlands Lord (those who knew him better) and c ) pissing of Martells (again, I'm making a commonsensical assumption that Martells weren't happy with Elia's treatment by Rhaegar; and I'm basing this on the SSM which said that one of the reasons that Dorne supplied Rhaegar with only 10k men was the fact that they were unhappy with his treatment of Elia).

Thus, these lords were supposed to see Rhaegar presenting himself as a rational and sensible leader, one that they could rally behind. Instead they saw Rhaegar pissing off 3 Paramount Houses in an event that was supposed to win them over.

That's a revised version of your argument. In the first one you had, I'm quoting, "every lord present doubt his ability to rule (again, this is opposite of what Rhaegar should want)". And yet that, allegedly universal, doubt wasn't voiced? By anyone? Lords of Westeros aren't that shy. That big an offender at the very least gets an appropriate nickname, even if posthumous.

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2) I don't see what's questionable here. It was noted in-story (in WOIAF, if I recall correctly) that Rhaegar adbucted Lyanna near Harrenhgall after the tourney.

Yes. And it's also, for example, general knowledge that Jaime slew Mad King Aerys because he had shit for honor (everyone's opinion) or, alternatively, because it was a super noble thing to do, as noble as what Tywin was concurrently doing (Maester Yandel's story). Neither version is even close. Since then, I require at least a single actual witness to consider upgrading "gossip" to "fact" (more witnesses would be even better, but less than one is simply unacceptable). Do we have one? A single eyewitness? Maybe someone who has heard from an eyewitness?

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3) Seeing how Rhaegar and Lyanna were nowehere to be found (and in the crisis that followed both of them were highly sought after), seeing how TOJ is a pretty secluded place and seeing how Lyanna died at the TOJ holding what was in all likelihood Rhaegar's gift; I find it very logical to think that R+L indeed went to TOJ. If you have any better idea, I'm eagerly listening.

Again, the "no witnesses" thing. You make big leaps here. From "Rhaegar was with Lyanna for some undetermined period" to "Rhaegar was with Lyanna for the whole time he was off the radar", for starters. Maybe. Maybe not.

No, I have no counter-theory in my pocket. For me, it's a real, still unanswered, question. I'd only like to point out that you're employing a form of circular reasoning here: "I think Rhaegar is an idiot, i base my conclusion on a few assumptions I need to make to make him an idiot". That makes for a simple story, but not a good story.

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1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

1) That's a revised version of your argument. In the first one you had, I'm quoting, "every lord present doubt his ability to rule (again, this is opposite of what Rhaegar should want)". And yet that, allegedly universal, doubt wasn't voiced? By anyone? Lords of Westeros aren't that shy. That big an offender at the very least gets an appropriate nickname, even if posthumous.

2) Yes. And it's also, for example, general knowledge that Jaime slew Mad King Aerys because he had shit for honor (everyone's opinion) or, alternatively, because it was a super noble thing to do, as noble as what Tywin was concurrently doing (Maester Yandel's story). Neither version is even close. Since then, I require at least a single actual witness to consider upgrading "gossip" to "fact" (more witnesses would be even better, but less than one is simply unacceptable). Do we have one? A single eyewitness? Maybe someone who has heard from an eyewitness?

3) Again, the "no witnesses" thing. You make big leaps here. From "Rhaegar was with Lyanna for some undetermined period" to "Rhaegar was with Lyanna for the whole time he was off the radar", for starters. Maybe. Maybe not.

No, I have no counter-theory in my pocket. For me, it's a real, still unanswered, question. I'd only like to point out that you're employing a form of circular reasoning here: "I think Rhaegar is an idiot, i base my conclusion on a few assumptions I need to make to make him an idiot". That makes for a simple story, but not a good story.

1) If lords present had seen Rhaegar angering 3 powerful families instead of winning them over by breaking off established social norms - then yes, they had every reason to doubt his ability to rule. Rheagar's behaviour at the tourney is NOT how a proper leader or proper king should behave.

2) Going by that logic, I suspect we'll never know for certain what happened - given how it isn't likely that we'll get POVs of either Lyanna, Rhaegar or members of Rhaegar's entourage. But that's like saying that you can't convict someone of a murder because we have no POVs (victim is dead, murderer is silent and there are no witnesses). What we have are clues, hints and circumstantial evidence; and they all point out towards the same conclusion: that Rhaegar adbucted/eloped with Lyanna shortly after tourney (Lyanna was not noted to have returned to Riverrun or Winterfell; she was last seen at Harrenhall), likely in the vicinity of Harrenhall. Then they went somewhere obviously not wanting to be found (1. lack of communication and 2.people will obviously look after Crown prince and LP's daughter, and yet they were unsuccessful). There are limited amount of places where two very powerful and recognizable people could have hidden, and it's logical to assume it was TOJ since Lyanna was in fact found there, along with presumable gift from Rhaegar and Kingsguard. That's it. Is it possible that all of these clues are misleading and point us in the wrong direction? Yes, but it's quite unlikely, especially how there's no viable alternative, at least for now.

3) Yes, I'm assuming, but where else could he have been? Loyalists note he went missing, which means that they didn't know where he is. He obviously wasn't with future rebel lords, since the whole clusterfuck woulnd't have happened so easily in case he was. He was unfound despite many wanting to found him, which suggests he was somewhere where noone thought to look. And TOJ presents itself as a logical option. I mean, it's theoretically possible that he just went of on a 10-month trip to Lorath or lived incognito as a fisherman somewhere in Reach - but such theories obviously don't make much narrative sense.

By the way, I don't think Rhaegar is an idiot - I stated that I believe he is an intelligent person. And again, I base my opinion that be behaved in monumentally dumb and irresponsible way based on a fact that he completely unnecessary helped to cause a shitstorm and did absolutely nothing to even try to repair it.

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2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

That's a revised version of your argument. In the first one you had, I'm quoting, "every lord present doubt his ability to rule (again, this is opposite of what Rhaegar should want)". And yet that, allegedly universal, doubt wasn't voiced? By anyone? Lords of Westeros aren't that shy. That big an offender at the very least gets an appropriate nickname, even if posthumous.

Yes. And it's also, for example, general knowledge that Jaime slew Mad King Aerys because he had shit for honor (everyone's opinion) or, alternatively, because it was a super noble thing to do, as noble as what Tywin was concurrently doing (Maester Yandel's story). Neither version is even close. Since then, I require at least a single actual witness to consider upgrading "gossip" to "fact" (more witnesses would be even better, but less than one is simply unacceptable). Do we have one? A single eyewitness? Maybe someone who has heard from an eyewitness?

Again, the "no witnesses" thing. You make big leaps here. From "Rhaegar was with Lyanna for some undetermined period" to "Rhaegar was with Lyanna for the whole time he was off the radar", for starters. Maybe. Maybe not.

No, I have no counter-theory in my pocket. For me, it's a real, still unanswered, question. I'd only like to point out that you're employing a form of circular reasoning here: "I think Rhaegar is an idiot, i base my conclusion on a few assumptions I need to make to make him an idiot". That makes for a simple story, but not a good story.

Rhaegar's abduction apparently had witness, probably more than one. He had six companions and lyanna probably had companions too. And it was not a secret thing which happened during dark night with disguise. 

Somebody immediately reported to Brandon and nobody tried to deny it was not rhaegar through the whole book.  

Yandel did not give various accounts like " it was said that rhaegar carried off her" or " it is unclear that who stole lyanna. Some say it may be rhaegar since he crowned her shortly before. But some say maybe it is some random outlaw. " 

It was written as a fact that rhaegar carried off lyanna in a certain place (10 leagues outside HH) at a certain time (early 282 after left his home) with his certain six trustful companions. Obviously people are sure about this. 

People were there and people saw it. Just like we knew "they" are in TOJ with ned. But we do not have names for them. This does not mean they do not exist. 

 

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I think the reason why me and probably many others have a problem with the idea that Rheagar was very intelligent, is because we don't have one incident when he really acted intelligent. I don't count that he told Jaime that he should take care of his father and that he should have done that sooner, because at that point it was to late.

I'm sure as Ned kneed down to be beheaded, he thought that he should have told Robert about everything, once he had evidences for it and shouldn't have warned Cersei. That didn't make his actions any more intelligent, does it?

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2 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

1) If lords present had seen Rhaegar angering 3 powerful families instead of winning them over by breaking off established social norms - then yes, they had every reason to doubt his ability to rule. Rheagar's behaviour at the tourney is NOT how a proper leader or proper king should behave.

2) Going by that logic, I suspect we'll never know for certain what happened - given how it isn't likely that we'll get POVs of either Lyanna, Rhaegar or members of Rhaegar's entourage. But that's like saying that you can't convict someone of a murder because we have no POVs (victim is dead, murderer is silent and there are no witnesses). What we have are clues, hints and circumstantial evidence; and they all point out towards the same conclusion: that Rhaegar adbucted/eloped with Lyanna shortly after tourney (Lyanna was not noted to have returned to Riverrun or Winterfell; she was last seen at Harrenhall), likely in the vicinity of Harrenhall. Then they went somewhere obviously not wanting to be found (1. lack of communication and 2.people will obviously look after Crown prince and LP's daughter, and yet they were unsuccessful). There are limited amount of places where two very powerful and recognizable people could have hidden, and it's logical to assume it was TOJ since Lyanna was in fact found there, along with presumable gift from Rhaegar and Kingsguard. That's it. Is it possible that all of these clues are misleading and point us in the wrong direction? Yes, but it's quite unlikely, especially how there's no viable alternative, at least for now.

3) Yes, I'm assuming, but where else could he have been? Loyalists note he went missing, which means that they didn't know where he is. He obviously wasn't with future rebel lords, since the whole clusterfuck woulnd't have happened so easily in case he was. He was unfound despite many wanting to found him, which suggests he was somewhere where noone thought to look. And TOJ presents itself as a logical option. I mean, it's theoretically possible that he just went of on a 10-month trip to Lorath or lived incognito as a fisherman somewhere in Reach - but such theories obviously don't make much narrative sense.

By the way, I don't think Rhaegar is an idiot - I stated that I believe he is an intelligent person. And again, I base my opinion that be behaved in monumentally dumb and irresponsible way based on a fact that he completely unnecessary helped to cause a shitstorm and did absolutely nothing to even try to repair it.

I agree with some of what you are saying -- but I think you are making a few unwarranted leaps in logic. 

Yes, Rhaegar probably made a error in judgment in crowning Lyanna. But I am not sure that it is the major issue you suggest. Rhaegar presumably was still much more popular and respected than Aerys. The ability to try to gather support at Harrenhal had already been set aside prior to the crowning when Aerys showed up. Whatever plans Rhaegar had to try eventually to unseat Aerys -- the crowning was unlikely to be an issue as larger concerns would have trumped any consideration of what people thought about the crowning and some period of time would have passed with emotions having cooled. And of course, at the time of the crowning, Rhaegar had no reason to think he eventually would run off with Lyanna, so he likely assumed it would simply become irrelevant to most after a short period of time (people tend to have short memories).

But a bigger leap in logic that you make is regarding the likelihood that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and kept her against her will. I think there is ample evidence that Lyanna stayed with Rhaegar willingly. I agree with you that most likely, people saw something that looked like an abduction (so the suggestion that the readers have no reason to think someone saw something is unfair). But as we should have learned from ASOIAF to this point, very little ends up being what it appears initially. So while I am not sure whether it was a planned escape or a last-minute rescue from Aerys's men (or something else we have not considered) -- I am fairly certain that Rhaegar was not really kidnapping Lyanna for the purposes of keeping her against her will (or raping her) -- and more important, the evidence seems to support that Lyanna stayed with Rhaegar willingly.

Now the biggest leap in logic for which I think you have little evidence is that Rhaegar could have taken action to reduce the likelihood of war after "disappearing" with Lyanna. I agree with you that most likely, shortly after Rhaegar and Lyanna "disappeared" they went and stayed at ToJ. I doubt it was immediate -- as I think they might have stayed in the riverlands for a bit (and I suspect they got married there). But within some reasonable period of time, it seems likely that they settled into ToJ to wait for whatever they were waiting for to return to KL (I believe they were waiting for a baby to be born, but other possibility should be considered). So given that information, the readers should be able to conclude that Rhaegar had limited and only sporadic access to information from KL (no ravens going to ToJ). We cannot assume that Rhaegar and Lyanna learned of Brandon being held in KL until after he was already dead. If so, then at that point returning to KL would not necessarily have helped cool things down. And Rhaegar might have thought returning would put Lyanna in danger at that point -- but who knows for sure? What we don't know and cannot assume is that Rhaegar knew of Brandon being arrested prior to his death. You suggest Rhaegar should have tried to repair the damage -- but once Brandon and Rickard are dead -- and Aerys has called for the heads of Ned and Robert -- I am not sure what Rhaegar could have done.

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4 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I agree with some of what you are saying -- but I think you are making a few unwarranted leaps in logic. 

1) Yes, Rhaegar probably made a error in judgment in crowning Lyanna. But I am not sure that it is the major issue you suggest. Rhaegar presumably was still much more popular and respected than Aerys. The ability to try to gather support at Harrenhal had already been set aside prior to the crowning when Aerys showed up. Whatever plans Rhaegar had to try eventually to unseat Aerys -- the crowning was unlikely to be an issue as larger concerns would have trumped any consideration of what people thought about the crowning and some period of time would have passed with emotions having cooled. And of course, at the time of the crowning, Rhaegar had no reason to think he eventually would run off with Lyanna, so he likely assumed it would simply become irrelevant to most after a short period of time (people tend to have short memories).

2) But a bigger leap in logic that you make is regarding the likelihood that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and kept her against her will. I think there is ample evidence that Lyanna stayed with Rhaegar willingly. I agree with you that most likely, people saw something that looked like an abduction (so the suggestion that the readers have no reason to think someone saw something is unfair). But as we should have learned from ASOIAF to this point, very little ends up being what it appears initially. So while I am not sure whether it was a planned escape or a last-minute rescue from Aerys's men (or something else we have not considered) -- I am fairly certain that Rhaegar was not really kidnapping Lyanna for the purposes of keeping her against her will (or raping her) -- and more important, the evidence seems to support that Lyanna stayed with Rhaegar willingly.

3) Now the biggest leap in logic for which I think you have little evidence is that Rhaegar could have taken action to reduce the likelihood of war after "disappearing" with Lyanna. I agree with you that most likely, shortly after Rhaegar and Lyanna "disappeared" they went and stayed at ToJ. I doubt it was immediate -- as I think they might have stayed in the riverlands for a bit (and I suspect they got married there). But within some reasonable period of time, it seems likely that they settled into ToJ to wait for whatever they were waiting for to return to KL (I believe they were waiting for a baby to be born, but other possibility should be considered). So given that information, the readers should be able to conclude that Rhaegar had limited and only sporadic access to information from KL (no ravens going to ToJ). We cannot assume that Rhaegar and Lyanna learned of Brandon being held in KL until after he was already dead. If so, then at that point returning to KL would not necessarily have helped cool things down. And Rhaegar might have thought returning would put Lyanna in danger at that point -- but who knows for sure? What we don't know and cannot assume is that Rhaegar knew of Brandon being arrested prior to his death. You suggest Rhaegar should have tried to repair the damage -- but once Brandon and Rickard are dead -- and Aerys has called for the heads of Ned and Robert -- I am not sure what Rhaegar could have done.

 

1) I can't emphasize how much of a problem Lyanna's crowning was, IMO. It's not a "misstep", it's not a "issue", not "debacle", but "what the fuck were you thinking?" kind of problem. It basically defies the popular notion of chivalry, it (quite needlessly) offends many powerful people and it evokes horrible customs from the time of Aegon IV.  It's a huge slap to the face of both Stark family and Elia Martell. Even in peactime it would be problematic, but with tensions growing and crazy king on the throne, it's outright catastrophic. Whatever Rhaegar's motives and reasons were, this is something that he should have never done; and I think I can't be harsh enough about it.

2) no, I don't think Lyanna was forcefully captured and I agree that she stayed with Rhaegar willingly. Whatever words I used in my past posts, it was not my intention to imply otherwise.

3) as I wrote earlier, the probable timeline between Brandon's coming to KL and Aerys' calling for Ned's and Bob's heads is few months and I find it very unlikely that Rhaegar couldn't intervene at some point. And if, as you suggest, he deliberately put himself in a position where informations don't reach him, than I must say this puts whole new level of stupid on Rhaegar's actions. Let's take a look at the post-capture situation

  • king is utterly crazy (bad)
  • kind and crown prince are at odds and factions start to form (getting worse)
  • crown prince disappears with LP's daughter (oh, dear, shitstorm is coming)
  • while everyone is in the dark because the two of them didn't bother to inform anyone (oh yes, it's coming in force)

Even if Rhaegar (and Lyanna) couldn't predict that the things will escalate to a civil war, he must have known some kind of massive shitstorm is bound to happen - and yet he chooses to stay out of the loop?? Rhaegar can't afford to get away from realm's problems just because it's more convenient for him to work on dragon's third head. He is not some nameless squire who eloped with his sweetheart - he's the crown prince. And when crown prince runs away from the crisis he himself helped to cause with his behaviour - I can't but think of him as an utter failure.

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6 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

 

1) I can't emphasize how much of a problem Lyanna's crowning was, IMO. It's not a "misstep", it's not a "issue", not "debacle", but "what the fuck were you thinking?" kind of problem. It basically defies the popular notion of chivalry, it (quite needlessly) offends many powerful people and it evokes horrible customs from the time of Aegon IV.  It's a huge slap to the face of both Stark family and Elia Martell. Even in peactime it would be problematic, but with tensions growing and crazy king on the throne, it's outright catastrophic. Whatever Rhaegar's motives and reasons were, this is something that he should have never done; and I think I can't be harsh enough about it.

How was it that big of an issue?

If Rhaegar had not run off with Lyanna, I doubt it would have ever been brought up again. It was months after Harrenhall before Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared and nothing had happened yet. The Starks did not go to war over it. No one was calling for Rhaegar's arrest. It might have been a rude at most.

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11 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

How was it that big of an issue?

If Rhaegar had not run off with Lyanna, I doubt it would have ever been brought up again. It was months after Harrenhall before Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared and nothing had happened yet. The Starks did not go to war over it. No one was calling for Rhaegar's arrest. It might have been a rude at most.

Well, this is not some high school drama. This happened among king, prince and most powerful lords and even a very small thing is highly sensitive and can cause a lot of trouble. We have numerous examples in the real life. Even one casual talk can raise a national protest. 

You may feel: what a big deal! Just a man wooed a woman! People will forget immediately! 

But it is a very different thing for them. And it looks like nobody forgot it. 

 

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5 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

How was it that big of an issue?

I explained why: It basically defies the popular notion of chivalry, it (quite needlessly) offends many powerful people and it evokes horrible customs from the time of Aegon IV.  It's a huge slap to the face of both Stark family and Elia Martell.

Let me put it this way: all systems of rule are based on certain assumptions, written, spoken and unspoken - and this applies to democracy as well as feudal monarhcy. Now, imagine if your ministry of internal affairs publicly proclaims that he'll give public offices to whoever brings him the biggest bribe and that he'll use the police to silence anyone who criticizes him. How would public react - what is this guy saying, is he insane, he's attacking the very idea of democratic society we live in etc. And in the same way Rheagar's actions constitute direct attack on prevalent norms - on the norm of chivalry, on the norm of feudal rights of his future important bannermen... With Lyanna's crowning, Rheagar is saying that he doesn't care if he publicly mistreats his wife and that he doesn't care what martial arrangements his LP have with each other (because Lyanna will be his mistress).

This is not "rude", that's game-breaking. Literally everyone was completely shocked (the moment when all smiles died), Brandon had to be restrained from physically confronting Rhaegar, Robert was brooding and a year later Martells sent less troops to Rhaegar's aid because they were unhappy with his treatment of Elia (gee, I wonder where did the get that notion?). Calling it "rude" is a big understatement.

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4 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

I explained why: It basically defies the popular notion of chivalry, it (quite needlessly) offends many powerful people and it evokes horrible customs from the time of Aegon IV.  It's a huge slap to the face of both Stark family and Elia Martell.

Let me put it this way: all systems of rule are based on certain assumptions, written, spoken and unspoken - and this applies to democracy as well as feudal monarhcy. Now, imagine if your ministry of internal affairs publicly proclaims that he'll give public offices to whoever brings him the biggest bribe and that he'll use the police to silence anyone who criticizes him. How would public react - what is this guy saying, is he insane, he's attacking the very idea of democratic society we live in etc. And in the same way Rheagar's actions constitute direct attack on prevalent norms - on the norm of chivalry, on the norm of feudal rights of his future important bannermen... With Lyanna's crowning, Rheagar is saying that he doesn't care if he publicly mistreats his wife and that he doesn't care what martial arrangements his LP have with each other (because Lyanna will be his mistress).

This is not "rude", that's game-breaking. Literally everyone was completely shocked (the moment when all smiles died), Brandon had to be restrained from physically confronting Rhaegar, Robert was brooding and a year later Martells sent less troops to Rhaegar's aid because they were unhappy with his treatment of Elia (gee, I wonder where did the get that notion?). Calling it "rude" is a big understatement.

It is game breaking.. but nothing happened because of it?

That doesn't seem to be game changing at all.

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2 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

It is game breaking.. but nothing happened because of it?

That doesn't seem to be game changing at all.

"Literally everyone was completely shocked (the moment when all smiles died), Brandon had to be restrained from physically confronting Rhaegar, Robert was brooding and a year later Martells sent less troops to Rhaegar's aid because they were unhappy with his treatment of Elia (gee, I wonder where did the get that notion?)"

You can call that nothing, and all I can do is disagree.

I suspect that maybe more stuff could have followed, but than Rhaegar one-upped himself with even bigger stupidity of eloping with Lyanna without telling anyone; so everyone started focusing on that.

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13 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

 

1) I can't emphasize how much of a problem Lyanna's crowning was, IMO. It's not a "misstep", it's not a "issue", not "debacle", but "what the fuck were you thinking?" kind of problem. It basically defies the popular notion of chivalry, it (quite needlessly) offends many powerful people and it evokes horrible customs from the time of Aegon IV.  It's a huge slap to the face of both Stark family and Elia Martell. Even in peactime it would be problematic, but with tensions growing and crazy king on the throne, it's outright catastrophic. Whatever Rhaegar's motives and reasons were, this is something that he should have never done; and I think I can't be harsh enough about it.

2) no, I don't think Lyanna was forcefully captured and I agree that she stayed with Rhaegar willingly. Whatever words I used in my past posts, it was not my intention to imply otherwise.

3) as I wrote earlier, the probable timeline between Brandon's coming to KL and Aerys' calling for Ned's and Bob's heads is few months and I find it very unlikely that Rhaegar couldn't intervene at some point. And if, as you suggest, he deliberately put himself in a position where informations don't reach him, than I must say this puts whole new level of stupid on Rhaegar's actions. Let's take a look at the post-capture situation

  • king is utterly crazy (bad)
  • kind and crown prince are at odds and factions start to form (getting worse)
  • crown prince disappears with LP's daughter (oh, dear, shitstorm is coming)
  • while everyone is in the dark because the two of them didn't bother to inform anyone (oh yes, it's coming in force)

Even if Rhaegar (and Lyanna) couldn't predict that the things will escalate to a civil war, he must have known some kind of massive shitstorm is bound to happen - and yet he chooses to stay out of the loop?? Rhaegar can't afford to get away from realm's problems just because it's more convenient for him to work on dragon's third head. He is not some nameless squire who eloped with his sweetheart - he's the crown prince. And when crown prince runs away from the crisis he himself helped to cause with his behaviour - I can't but think of him as an utter failure.

I strongly disagree with you on points 1 and 3 (obviously 2 was just a misunderstanding between us -- no biggie).

I agree with what KVT IV said above. If Rhaegar had not run off with Lyanna, it never would have become an issue at all. It reminds me of my sisters who get into a fight and one of them tells me that the other is so mad at her than she doubts they will speak again. And then in a couple of months the entire thing is forgotten. The Starks were pissed -- but Lyanna was not the one humilated -- Elia was. And Dorne is not going to turn against Rhaegar -- his power is Elia's and Aegon's power. So in the long run, both the Starks -- who don't want a crazy king any more than anyone else -- and Dorne -- are not going to make a decision about whether to back Rhaegar over Aerys based on whether Rhaegar crowned Lyanna at the tourney. This action became a much bigger scandal after Rhaegar and Lyanna disappear. Only in retrospect, after the "abduction" did the crowning become so "infamous" historically. At the time of the crowning, Rhaegar had no intent to have an affair with Lyanna -- he still thought he would have the three heads with Elia (she had not yet been told she could have no more children). Keep in mind that about a year passed between the tourney and the "abduction" and no one did anything about the crowning in that time period.

The problem I have with your conclusions regarding Rhaegar's ability to intervene is that we don't know enough to be sure. For example, assume (just for these purposes -- I am not sure it happened this way, but it might have) that the "rescue" theory is correct (that Rhaegar found out Lyanna was about to be arrested by Aerys's men and swooped in to save her). At that point, relations between Rhaegar and Aerys would be even more strained -- and Aerys might even consider Rhaegar a traitor. Rhaegar returning to KL likely would NOT have saved Brandon or Rickard from execution. Aerys would not have listened to Rhaegar's entreaties, and Rhaegar arguably would have been putting Lyanna and himself at more risk by returning. 

But no matter why Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared, we also don't know the exact time frame -- Rickard likely was already in the riverlands at the time of being summoned (for the intended wedding) and so getting to KL would not have taken that long. But your suggestion that staying out of communication is reckless makes no sense to me. No matter the reason for Rhaegar and Lyanna disappearing (i.e., even if not a "rescue" scenario), I doubt Rhaegar could have done anything to save Brandon and Rickard. Aerys was going to do what he was going to do.

As to possibly being out of communication for an extended period of time, why would Rhaegar think it possible that anything like that would happen? War occurred only because two very unlikely events followed Lyanna's disappearance -- Brandon goes into KL and demands that Rhaegar "come out and die" -- and Aerys demands that Jon Arryn turn over Ned and Robert to be killed. While Aerys is known to be crazy and Brandon is known to be reckless -- these actions could not have been predicted. The idea that Brandon would think it a good idea to demand the death of the Crown Prince -- and in the Capitol no less -- is perhaps a more insane action than anything Aerys ever did.

In fact, this action by Brandon is one of the aspects of ASOIAF that I think is the weakest plot-wise by GRRM -- as I don't believe it plausible -- no matter how hot-headed Brandon was -- that he would have done that. He did it ONLY because GRRM needed Brandon to do it for the plot to work -- but GRRM has not made it plausible to me in any respect that someone in Brandon's position in Westeros would have been that monumentally self-destructive. I just don't buy it -- it is "plot device" at its worst (although I forgive it anyway due to the real need for the plot and for the bulk of the series being so good).

Even the most sane and sober-minded King would have had to arrest Brandon for his actions. What did Brandon think might happen? That Rhaeagar would appear and agree to be executed by Brandon? That Brandon would just be allowed to continue to rant and rave without consequence? Given the implausibility of Brandon's actions -- or any overt actions against Rhaegar or the Targs -- Rhaegar had no reason to think he needed to be in close communication. Be in close communication for what purpose? 

And if Rhaegar was going to remain hidden, he needed to be somewhere remote -- which means no easy access to communication. That simply is the price one pays to stay hidden when the person is as recognizable as Rhaegar.

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14 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

It is game breaking.. but nothing happened because of it?

That doesn't seem to be game changing at all.

How is a married prince with a wife from a lord paramount family "kidnapping" an only daughter from another lord paramount family who betrothed to another lord paramount is not a political disaster ? It's a not only political  but also PR disaster, especially since he planned to held a great council, he'd need as many support as he could yet he was busy pissing them off. How would he convince those lords to make him king "Oy, my daddy is crazy but i'm not, just a rapist and kidnapper lol. Vote for me !" That doesn't make sense at all

And it was game changing, i've never read about previous princes kidnapped a lady from great house, especially a married prince in westeros history. Do you know something that i don't ?

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Just now, redtree said:

How is a married prince with a wife from a lord paramount family "kidnapping" an only daughter from another lord paramount family who betrothed to another lord paramount is not a political disaster ? It's a not only political  but also PR disaster, especially since he planned to held a great council, he'd need as many support as he could yet he was busy pissing them off. How would he convince those lords to make him king "Oy, my daddy is crazy but i'm not, just a rapist and kidnapper lol. Vote for me !" That doesn't make sense at all

And it was game changing, i've never read about previous princes kidnapped a lady from great house, especially a married prince in westeros history. Do you know something that i don't ?

I was not talking about the kidnapping, I was talking about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna

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