What was Rhaegar Targaryen thinking?

[purple-eyes]

1 minute ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I was not talking about the kidnapping, I was talking about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna

Aerys only said: did nursing ruin your high breasts? This is When he was drunk.

So you may say: No biggie! Every drunk man may say something silly! They can not control themselves! 

But the hand of the realm immediately resigned after this. I assume in any kingdom, it is a really big deal that the prime minister tried to resign. 

Honestly There is no small thing for these people. Crowning lyanna who is both LP's daughter and fiancée is really really bad.

If rhaegar is crowning ashara, it would be much better. In that case, he only embarrassed house martell. 

[purple-eyes]

Sure. Nobody will go to war only because rhaegar crowned lyanna. But the seeds of anger were planted. Robert's anger, Brandon's anger and Doran's anger were all expressed in later events. Nobody will forget this. 

Rhaegar wanted their help to depose his father. But he simply angered all of them by one very unnecessary action. And yes, this is very insane. 

 

 

 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

5 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Sure. Nobody will go to war only because rhaegar crowned lyanna. But the seeds of anger were planted. Robert's anger, Brandon's anger and Doran's anger were all expressed in later events. Nobody will forget this. 

Rhaegar wanted their help to depose his father. But he simply angered all of them by one very unnecessary action. And yes, this is very insane. 

 

 

 

All of them?

Really? Maybe you are exaggerating a tad bit here.

House Stark? Sure. House Martell? Sure. The rest? The Reeds dont seem too upset about it. No one else ever brings it up.

[redtree]

5 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I was not talking about the kidnapping, I was talking about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna

Well it's still game changing, Aemon the dragonknight jousted and crowned Naerys because he knew Aegon 4's plan to crown Barba Bracken, he wanted to spare Naerys of the humiliation. The crowning is not a gesture of courtesy and gallantry but a sign of love and romantic interest, it's an insult to 3 great houses at once. He shown to his wife that she meant so little that he honor another girl in front of her and the whole realm. So far, no married lord/prince has ever honored another lady who's not a family member/fiancee as far as i know

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 minute ago, redtree said:

Well it's still game changing, Aemon the dragonknight jousted and crowned Naerys because he knew Aegon 4's plan to crown Barba Bracken, he wanted to spare Naerys of the humiliation. The crowning is not a gesture of courtesy and gallantry but a sign of love and romantic interest, it's an insult to 3 great houses at once. He shown to his wife that she meant so little that he honor another girl in front of her and the whole realm. So far, no married lord/prince has ever honored another lady who's not a family member/fiancee as far as i know

How is it game changing? Socially inappropriate -- probably. Breaking of the information rules -- definitely. Game changing -- unlikely. Rhaegar likely had no intent to have any relationship with Lyanna after the tourney. He likely expected to have the three heads with Elia -- but then she was told she could have no more children. That happened after the tourney. If Rhaegar had not run off with Lyanna -- the crowning would have become an irrelevancy -- complete non-issue for any political action thereafter. And Rhaegar could not have had any way to suspect he would run off with Lyanna a year later at the time of the crowning -- and it is only the "abduction" that in retrospect made the crowning a bigger deal.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Just now, redtree said:

Well it's still game changing, Aemon the dragonknight jousted and crowned Naerys because he knew Aegon 4's plan to crown Barba Bracken, he wanted to spare Naerys of the humiliation. The crowning is not a gesture of courtesy and gallantry but a sign of love and romantic interest, it's an insult to 3 great houses at once. He shown to his wife that she meant so little that he honor another girl in front of her and the whole realm. So far, no married lord/prince has ever honored another lady who's not a family member/fiancee as far as i know

First off, No one has any idea (other than GRRM) what was behind the crowning of Lyanna. Could be romance, could admiration, could be something else entirely.

Second; this is tantamount to a bank robber parking in a handicap spot before the robbery.

Is it a good thing to park in a handicap spot? No, it is a dick move. But lets not lose sight that the Bank Robbery is the real deal. The parking means very little to the vast majority of people.

Same goes here, if Rhaegar had not run off with Lyanna this would not be an issue for 99% Westeros. Maybe the Starks hold a little grudge, maybe Robert is a little snide with his cousin next time he sees him, maybe the Martells are a little cold towards Rhaegar at the next get together. but other than that this goes away.

[purple-eyes]

9 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

All of them?

Really? Maybe you are exaggerating a tad bit here.

House Stark? Sure. House Martell? Sure. The rest? The Reeds dont seem too upset about it. No one else ever brings it up.

"All of them" meant the three people I mentioned above.

Robert, Brandon and Doran. They all were angry at Rhaegar. Rest of them were shocked by the scandal.

And who knows, maybe Howland was also mad at Rhaegar. He may think a certain maid with beautiful laughing eyes deserved that title more than Lyanna. He sat there whole night to silently count who are her dancing partners and after 17 years he still did not forget.

But he did not even bother to tell us what type of eyes Lyanna had. So you see the difference.

 

[redtree]

8 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

How is it game changing? Socially inappropriate -- probably. Breaking of the information rules -- definitely. Game changing -- unlikely. Rhaegar likely had no intent to have any relationship with Lyanna after the tourney. He likely expected to have the three heads with Elia -- but then she was told she could have no more children. That happened after the tourney. If Rhaegar had not run off with Lyanna -- the crowning would have become an irrelevancy -- complete non-issue for any political action thereafter. And Rhaegar could not have had any way to suspect he would run off with Lyanna a year later at the time of the crowning -- and it is only the "abduction" that in retrospect made the crowning a bigger deal.

Is it an old game for a married prince to give the crown to other lady when the wife is right there ? No. I'm talking strictly about the crowning, you stretched it way beyond
 

8 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

First off, No one has any idea (other than GRRM) what was behind the crowning of Lyanna. Could be romance, could admiration, could be something else entirely.

No, but in the eyes of the public the crowning of the tourney's queen is either about romantic interest/family member/in KG's case, the royal ladies. Lyanna wasn't a family member and he wasn't a KG so that only one option for people to interpretted his action. Brandon and Robert translated it that way
 

8 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Same goes here, if Rhaegar had not run off with Lyanna this would not be an issue for 99% Westeros. Maybe the Starks hold a little grudge, maybe Robert is a little snide with his cousin next time he sees him, maybe the Martells are a little cold towards Rhaegar at the next get together. but other than that this goes away.

The crowning itself was still game changing, and he did has a plan for great council, why risk pissing off 3 great lords ?

And the robbers parking in handicap spot ? What ?
Do they humiliate their wives ?
Do people held them in higher standards ?
This is a false parallel, parking in handicap spot is a dick move, crowning someone else in front of your wife was beyond a dick move.

[UnmaskedLurker]

2 minutes ago, redtree said:

Is it an old game for a married prince to give the crown to other lady when the wife is right there ? No. I'm talking strictly about the crowning, you stretched it way beyond

No, I am only trying to talk about the crowning. I am explaining that the crowning only took on some significance after Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. If that had not occurred -- and Rhaegar had no reason to suspect it might at the time of the crowning -- the crowning would have been a total irrelevancy. A year passed between the crowning and the "abduction" and the crowning had no effect on Rhaegar or anyone else during that one-year period. It simply was not the big a deal in the long run -- but became a bigger deal after-the-fact when Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna.

[purple-eyes]

8 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

First off, No one has any idea (other than GRRM) what was behind the crowning of Lyanna. Could be romance, could admiration, could be something else entirely.

Second; this is tantamount to a bank robber parking in a handicap spot before the robbery.

Is it a good thing to park in a handicap spot? No, it is a dick move. But lets not lose sight that the Bank Robbery is the real deal. The parking means very little to the vast majority of people.

Same goes here, if Rhaegar had not run off with Lyanna this would not be an issue for 99% Westeros. Maybe the Starks hold a little grudge, maybe Robert is a little snide with his cousin next time he sees him, maybe the Martells are a little cold towards Rhaegar at the next get together. but other than that this goes away.

Are you serious? these three guys ruled half of the kingdom (brandon as the representative of his daddy at HH).

You publicly humiliated all of them at one time and you thought this is not a big deal?

Even Rhaegar did not run off with Lyanna, these angers will sooner or later be expressed.

For example, if Rhaegar made a great council, do you think Robert and Brandon would happily support him?

Look at what Aerys got after he slighted Tywin.

Again, they are not commoners, this is not high school drama. these are powerful rulers.

Try to imagine king of France publicly wooed queen of King of UK.  Then you know this is something serious.

 

 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

8 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

"All of them" meant the three people I mentioned above.

Robert, Brandon and Doran. They all were angry at Rhaegar. Rest of them were shocked by the scandal.

And who knows, maybe Howland was also mad at Rhaegar. He may think a certain maid with beautiful laughing eyes deserved that title more than Lyanna. He sat there whole night to silently count who are her dancing partners and after 17 years he still did not forget.

But he did not even bother to tell us what type of eyes Lyanna had. So you see the difference.

 

The only one that we know that was truly angry was Brandon who is not even a Lord yet.

Robert played it off like it was no big deal (maybe secretly angry) and there is no mention of what Doran thought.

As far as Howland, he told his kids the Story of TKotLT so many times that they are astounded that the Stark kids do not know the story.

Howland was at the Tower and fought for his life against the 3 King's Guard. If he was angry it would have shaded the story that his kids tell. Yet they do not say anything about the evil Rhaegar or his cruel intentions.

1 minute ago, purple-eyes said:

Are you serious? these three guys ruled half of the kingdom (brandon as the representative of his daddy at HH).

You publicly humiliated all of them at one time and you thought this is not a big deal?

Even Rhaegar did not run off with Lyanna, these angers will sooner or later be expressed.

For example, if Rhaegar made a great council, do you think Robert and Brandon would happily support him?

Look at what Aerys got after he slighted Tywin.

Again, they are not commoners, this is not high school drama. these are powerful rulers.

Try to imagine king of France publicly wooed queen of King of UK.  Then you know this is something serious.

 

 

Would they support Rhaegar over the Mad King? Absolutely.

[Knight Of Winter]

1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I strongly disagree with you on points 1 and 3 (obviously 2 was just a misunderstanding between us -- no biggie).

I agree with what KVT IV said above. If Rhaegar had not run off with Lyanna, it never would have become an issue at all. It reminds me of my sisters who get into a fight and one of them tells me that the other is so mad at her than she doubts they will speak again. And then in a couple of months the entire thing is forgotten. The Starks were pissed -- but Lyanna was not the one humilated -- Elia was. And Dorne is not going to turn against Rhaegar -- his power is Elia's and Aegon's power. So in the long run, both the Starks -- who don't want a crazy king any more than anyone else -- and Dorne -- are not going to make a decision about whether to back Rhaegar over Aerys based on whether Rhaegar crowned Lyanna at the tourney. This action became a much bigger scandal after Rhaegar and Lyanna disappear. Only in retrospect, after the "abduction" did the crowning become so "infamous" historically. At the time of the crowning, Rhaegar had no intent to have an affair with Lyanna -- he still thought he would have the three heads with Elia (she had not yet been told she could have no more children). Keep in mind that about a year passed between the tourney and the "abduction" and no one did anything about the crowning in that time period.

The problem I have with your conclusions regarding Rhaegar's ability to intervene is that we don't know enough to be sure. For example, assume (just for these purposes -- I am not sure it happened this way, but it might have) that the "rescue" theory is correct (that Rhaegar found out Lyanna was about to be arrested by Aerys's men and swooped in to save her). At that point, relations between Rhaegar and Aerys would be even more strained -- and Aerys might even consider Rhaegar a traitor. Rhaegar returning to KL likely would NOT have saved Brandon or Rickard from execution. Aerys would not have listened to Rhaegar's entreaties, and Rhaegar arguably would have been putting Lyanna and himself at more risk by returning. 

But no matter why Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared, we also don't know the exact time frame -- Rickard likely was already in the riverlands at the time of being summoned (for the intended wedding) and so getting to KL would not have taken that long. But your suggestion that staying out of communication is reckless makes no sense to me. No matter the reason for Rhaegar and Lyanna disappearing (i.e., even if not a "rescue" scenario), I doubt Rhaegar could have done anything to save Brandon and Rickard. Aerys was going to do what he was going to do.

As to possibly being out of communication for an extended period of time, why would Rhaegar think it possible that anything like that would happen? War occurred only because two very unlikely events followed Lyanna's disappearance -- Brandon goes into KL and demands that Rhaegar "come out and die" -- and Aerys demands that Jon Arryn turn over Ned and Robert to be killed. While Aerys is known to be crazy and Brandon is known to be reckless -- these actions could not have been predicted. The idea that Brandon would think it a good idea to demand the death of the Crown Prince -- and in the Capitol no less -- is perhaps a more insane action than anything Aerys ever did.

In fact, this action by Brandon is one of the aspects of ASOIAF that I think is the weakest plot-wise by GRRM -- as I don't believe it plausible -- no matter how hot-headed Brandon was -- that he would have done that. He did it ONLY because GRRM needed Brandon to do it for the plot to work -- but GRRM has not made it plausible to me in any respect that someone in Brandon's position in Westeros would have been that monumentally self-destructive. I just don't buy it -- it is "plot device" at its worst (although I forgive it anyway due to the real need for the plot and for the bulk of the series being so good).

Even the most sane and sober-minded King would have had to arrest Brandon for his actions. What did Brandon think might happen? That Rhaeagar would appear and agree to be executed by Brandon? That Brandon would just be allowed to continue to rant and rave without consequence? Given the implausibility of Brandon's actions -- or any overt actions against Rhaegar or the Targs -- Rhaegar had no reason to think he needed to be in close communication. Be in close communication for what purpose? 

And if Rhaegar was going to remain hidden, he needed to be somewhere remote -- which means no easy access to communication. That simply is the price one pays to stay hidden when the person is as recognizable as Rhaegar.

Point 1): you and your sisters are not crown princes and important lords of huge kingdom (at least not that I know of ). Westerosi politics between king, prince and lords works differently than familial relations. Act such as Rheagar's provokes "bad blood" between him and his bannermen, and quite needlessly at that. And when enough "badwill" accumulates, you get relationships like Reach-Dorne or Bracken-Blackwood.

Objectively speaking, there's no reason for Targs to rule the realm. They are not the wisest nor the smartest house. They don't command most men out of their lands (Crownlands in among the weakest provinces). And in the last 150 years, they don't even have the superpower weapon in the form of dragons. In fact, all Targs do have in unspoken agreement between all the houses that everyone will submit to Targ rule. And if enough people stop believing in that agreement (due to being too pissed off with the Targ dynasty), Targs may find themselves in very uncomfortable position. They absolutely have to keep good relationship with the majority of their bannermen. Is Rhaegar crowning Lyanna per se enough to turn the bannermen against Targs? No, but it's a big step in that direction, the one Rhaegar should have avoid committing. Just take a look at everyone's reactions: "all the smiles died", Brandon wanted to psychically confront Rhaegar and Martells pissed enough to send less troops to Rhaegar during RR.

I don't know about the timeline that places R+L elopement a year after the tourney, but it makes little sense to me. The fact that Rhaegar and Lyanna were both in Riverlands would suggest that it happened some time after the tourney. Can you elaborate?

Point 3) whatever the scenario is - Rhaegar's actions remain irresponsible. Imagine if your prime minister detonated a bomb in another country. And when this country starts demanding explanations and preparing retributions - your prime minister just runs off and hides somewhere. Shitstorm that's about to happen doesn't concern him - he's cool. That's my opinion of Rheagar.

Once again, Rhaegar is the crown prince. Affairs of realm must concern him. He can NEVER afford to even appear disinterested and uncaring when the realm is on a brink of a civil war, much less actually be disinterested and uncaring. He HAS to act, if nothing else to show everyone that he's still there and that he's doing something.

Let me roll on with your "rescue" scenario for a moment. Firstly, a small digression - it doesn't fit with "one-year" timeline we I wrote about above. If Aerys figured out that Lyanna=KOTLT, then there's no way a year would have passed between tourney and Lya's abduction.

But let's move on to more important points.If R thought that Aerys was after L, then why did he spirit her away to TOJ? Why not bring her to the place where Lyanna would be absolutely and completely safe - namely Winterfell? How come he couldn't see that his elopement with L will bring huge political crisis while he's chilling at the TOJ? What he should have done is to have reacted as soon as he heard Brandon rode to confront him at KL. Maybe take a small party and fast horses and intercept Rickard as he moves to KL (LP's entourage doesn't move that fast). Or instead ride to KL and confront Aerys (yes, it's a big risk, but not doing it is even bigger risk). Failing that, maybe make contact with Jon, Robert and Ned: I know what happened with Lyanna and my dad is obviously nuts. We have a common cause - let's depose him. Failing that, appear on the scene ASAP and work on solving the problem peacefully. Failing that, join the war that your family and leal bannermen are fighting - partially in your name.  Etc., etc. He should, in both of his responsibilities as a crown prince and as human being - tried. Tried....something, whatevr it is that has the chance of working.

Rhaegar failed at all of these. Do you remember when did he actually appear in KL? Few months into the rebellion, before the Battle of Trident: Hey guys, what has been going on while I was away? Civil war?. And for the n-th time, this gives away Rhaegar's image as one of uncaring and irresponsible prince. How it looks like - he did not concern himself with mundane trifles such as civil war that he himself helped to cause, he had his mind on otherworldly stuff - 3HD prophecy. He seems to be  hey, it doesn't matter that king is crazy, half of the great houses are mad at me and civil war is brewing; what's important is that dragon must have 3 heads type of person. If he thought differently, surely he would have dedicated a non-zero amount of his time to realm's politics. He apparently didn't.

You also assert that Aerys and Brandon are two main culprits for the civil war. While that's not incorrect, I think it misses two important points. First is that Rhaegar is guilty as well. He's not the most guilty, but his part is not insignificant, and I've explained why I believe so. Second point is that Rheagar, even if he couldn't predict civil war will happen, must have known some kind of massive political crisis will happen (again, thanks to his actions) and should have prepared accordingly (good first step would be not to disappear). So overall, IMO Rheagar holds a huge amount of blame for civil's war causes and some amount of blame for its escalation.

So, all in all, I think that the way he behaved himself during the Tourney at Harrenhall and later, during the Robert's Rebellion - paints quite a negative picture of Rhaegar.

[Kal-L]

2 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Would they support Rhaegar over the Mad King? Absolutely.

Your point is clearer now. Despite the insults Rhaegar was still a better option than Aerys, actually following that reasoning he could have gotten away with pretty much everything as you can hardly be worse than a mad man.

Sadly it didn't happen that way there was a line to not cross.

[redtree]

17 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

No, I am only trying to talk about the crowning. I am explaining that the crowning only took on some significance after Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. If that had not occurred -- and Rhaegar had no reason to suspect it might at the time of the crowning -- the crowning would have been a total irrelevancy. A year passed between the crowning and the "abduction" and the crowning had no effect on Rhaegar or anyone else during that one-year period. It simply was not the big a deal in the long run -- but became a bigger deal after-the-fact when Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna.

No, i don't think so. Tourney at Harrenhal was the biggest and grandest tourney, nobles from the entire realm was there. The crowning was definitely a memorable and relevant event, one that keeps tongues wagging. Big event ? Probably not, but as i said, a game changing kind of thing

[purple-eyes]

15 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

The only one that we know that was truly angry was Brandon who is not even a Lord yet.

Robert played it off like it was no big deal (maybe secretly angry) and there is no mention of what Doran thought.

As far as Howland, he told his kids the Story of TKotLT so many times that they are astounded that the Stark kids do not know the story.

Howland was at the Tower and fought for his life against the 3 King's Guard. If he was angry it would have shaded the story that his kids tell. Yet they do not say anything about the evil Rhaegar or his cruel intentions.

Would they support Rhaegar over the Mad King? Absolutely.

You may want to reread that part in the world book plus a SSM. Robert was indeed angry. He did not laugh it off. He likely laughed, but not "off". Doran and Oberyn? well, it is reasonably safe to say they are angry too.

 

I am just trying to be sarcastic about Howland Reed. Maybe you did not get it. My fault.

 

Even after Aerys did so many crazy things during rebellion, still half kingdom (even stannis was thinking to support king) supported him.

If rebellion did not happen, it is hard to say which one will win. Aerys ruled for 20 years peacefully and richly. People would not forget about this. But Rhaegar already showed his recklessness by chasing his vassal's future wife. By the way, there is Viserys too.

They may not want to support Mad king, but they may want to raise Viserys. Great council listed all the possible candidates, not just Rhaegar and Aerys.

By the way, If I were Robert, I would not support Rhaegar. Why?

"this guy publicly wooed my future wife when he was a prince, if he become a king, he probably will try to get rid of me and take my wife for himself."

 

 

 

 

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

5 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

The only one that we know that was truly angry was Brandon who is not even a Lord yet.

Robert played it off like it was no big deal (maybe secretly angry) and there is no mention of what Doran thought.

As far as Howland, he told his kids the Story of TKotLT so many times that they are astounded that the Stark kids do not know the story.

Howland was at the Tower and fought for his life against the 3 King's Guard. If he was angry it would have shaded the story that his kids tell. Yet they do not say anything about the evil Rhaegar or his cruel intentions.

Would they support Rhaegar over the Mad King? Absolutely.

Not "maybe", definitely angry. And we do know that Doran did not quite, ehm, appreciate the gesture. You can ignore the World book and SSMs all you like and even claim they are not canon, but IMO this will only lead to a flawed understanding.

 

All those lords would risk much more than their own heads --which, in itself, is kind of biggie if you ask me-- in a coup against Aerys. They might do it though, if they were persuaded that it was really worth it. And it seems that many of them had, in fact, high hopes for Rhaegar. Use your imagination to understand what those people might have been thinking about the crowning incident. IMO, it would be seen as a big let down; no wonder why it was "the moment all smiles died": the hope for better days just died then and there. What would this incident say about his dependability as a leader to a venture synonymous to high treason? (Keep in mind that they would see the incident in the way an external observer would understand it, they weren't into Rhaegar's head to judge his motives - not that it really matters.)

Therefore I am not certain at all that they "absolutely" support Rhaegar - in fact, I seriously doubt that they would. In my opinion, the most reasonable route after Rhaegar's exhibition of irresponsibility would be to keep distances, sit out and just wait and see where the scales will tip. Not worthy to risk their and theirs well being.

[UnmaskedLurker]

22 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

[snip]

I think we have taken our debate as far as it can go -- neither being convinced by the other (as is so often the case). I wanted, however, to answer a couple of questions that you asked just for clarification purposes.

I am not sure how long a period passed between the tourney and the abduction -- but it was some period of time. It seems clear that Rhaegar had returned to Dragonstone. Lyanna was in the riverlands not due to the time being just after the tourney -- but because her brother, Brandon, was about to marry Cat in the riverlands. Here is the relevant quote from WOIAF that clarifies some aspects of the time period:

Quote

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

I have bolded the part that makes it clear that the "abduction" took place in the following year after the tourney --although of course it does not mean that an entire year passed. But some period of time passed because the Tullys would not have planned the wedding to have been right on the heels of the tourney to separate the events and give the wedding its own significance. What seems fairly clear to me is that after the tourney, Rhaegar returns to DS -- Aegon is born -- Elia is told she can have no more children. So while I cannot be sure of the precise amount of time -- it was some reasonable period of time.

The other question I wanted to answer is why they went to ToJ (rather than Winterfell, for example) at all if the abduction was really a rescue. Of course, I can only speculate, but here is what I think might have happened -- admitted pure speculation but trying to fill in the blanks of how we get from a rescue to what I believe to be a marriage and intentional attempt to have a child (again all pure speculation -- but based on some evidence in the series -- both thematic and textual).

I think that at first they camped somewhere nearby to decide what to do next -- the rescue would have been a list minute rush on Rhaegar's part, after all. I think that the attraction between Rhaegar and Lyanna quickly reignited from their initial encounter at the tourney. I think that they decided that eloping would solve both their problems -- Rhaegar needed a third head and Lyanna wanted out of marriage to Robert. I think they believed themselves to be in love and got married in front of a weirwood tree (Old Gods) in the riverlands (maybe on the Isle of Faces) and maybe also by a traveling Septon (we know such Septons exist). Now they conclude that they need to hide out to let tempers cool down. I think Rhaegar concluded that their best course of action would be to stay in hiding until a baby is born -- then go back to KL with new wife and baby -- trying to force Aerys's hand in recognizing the polygamous marriage. If Aerys refuses, I think the back-up plan might have been to go into exile (probably Essos) with two wives and three children to prepare them for the War for the Dawn 2.0.

Once again -- a lot of speculation based only on very limited information. But I am trying to fill in a blanks based on limited information such as -- it appeared to be an abduction to observers (suggesting that Lyanna was not in on the escape, as she would have just slipped away, but she does not seem to have been kept against her will); Ned speaks only favorably regarding Rhaegar (would not have frequented brothels -- does not seem to have a bad thought about Rhaegar); Lyanna and Rhaegar seem to be thinking of each other when they die (Lyanna with the flowers and Rhaegar with the name of Lyanna on his lips); they stay in hiding at ToJ for a long time; Lyanna appears to have been pregnant (assuming RLJ is correct). So I try to make sense of all of these pieces of information and fashion a theory that makes the most sense. I also take into account things we know regarding Targ history -- such as the history of incest and polygamy -- as well as marriages that succeeded when asked for forgiveness (Jaehaerys and Shaera) but failed when asked for permission (both Daemons). Oh, and there are other clues that point to Rhaegar and Lyanna being married and not just having a child accidentally while not married (I can go into those clues if you want, but I suspect you are aware of most of them). So I add those hints into the mix to come up with my working theory outlined above.

The benefit of my theory is that all of the available clues seem to be consistent with my theory. The bad part of my theory is that there are not enough clues to have any degree of confidence in my theory -- but at a minimum it sets forth one possible set of events that answers you question as to why not go to Winterfell and why go to ToJ for so long. There might be a completely different explanation for why they did not go to Winterfell -- but I don't think you can assume it was pure stupidity or recklessness. I gave one scenario in which going to Winterfell would not have been an option and staying in hiding for a period of time was viewed as a necessity. GRRM might have a completely different scenario in mind -- but I suspect it will answer you question with more than just -- plot device.

[Knight Of Winter]

Yes, and I'm again goind to point out the same problem of Rhaegar disappearing off somewehere with Lyanna /or Elia / or buying himself with 3HD prophecy while the civil war was brewing. Anyhow;

9 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I think we have taken our debate as far as it can go -- neither being convinced by the other (as is so often the case). I wanted, however, to answer a couple of questions that you asked just for clarification purposes.

perhaps that's the case, so thanks for WOIAF quote and pleasure debating with you

[ShadowCat Rivers]

2 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Even the most sane and sober-minded King would have had to arrest Brandon for his actions. What did Brandon think might happen? That Rhaeagar would appear and agree to be executed by Brandon? That Brandon would just be allowed to continue to rant and rave without consequence? Given the implausibility of Brandon's actions -- or any overt actions against Rhaegar or the Targs -- Rhaegar had no reason to think he needed to be in close communication. Be in close communication for what purpose? 

What I take out of the way this prt of the plot is written, interpreting Jaime's too brief account that is, is that Brandon demanded to face Rhaegar in a single combat; that's what "come out and die" stands for. Lordly (and youthful) entitlement and arrogance, along with the naive convinction that 'gods will grant him victory because he's got the right in his side' would be a somewhat (but not completely) adequate explanation of why he acted like this. [It still is stupid, and he really ought to know that the mad king was mad, but it's not like Eddard did not confide to Cersei about what he knew... I mean, Starks are generally prone to monumentally absurd (para)political actions.]

But I disagree that some similar sort of actions were implausible (by "similar" I mean something less stupid and self destructive, but equally threatening to the peace of the realm). There is precedent, for smaller a provocation no less: immediately, the Laughing Storm calling the banners for a breach of a betrothal comes to mind. Rhaegar had every reason, he really ought to know that there would be repercussions and he really ought to monitor and be ready to respond. Besides, Lyanna supposedly knew her brother, and it's not like he didn't have a very tense response to the (way less severe) crowning incident.

IMO, it would be a huge break of voluntary suspension of disbelief if the author was to claim that the normaly expected response from the Stark side would be to do, well, nothing (and consequently, that Rhaegar had no reason whatsoever to seriously worry about that front).

[purple-eyes]

There is no such thing called they will support rhaegar absolutely. 

Look at white bull, still thought he should be on the throne after all the drama. 

In fact, if rebellion did not happen, rhaegar may not be able to depose aerys at all.