What was Rhaegar Targaryen thinking?

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 minute ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

What I take out of the way this prt of the plot is written, interpreting Jaime's too brief account that is, is that Brandon demanded to face Rhaegar in a single combat; that's what "come out and die" stands for. Lordly (and youthful) entitlement and arrogance, along with the naive convinction that 'gods will grant him victory because he's got the right in his side' would be a somewhat (but not completely) adequate explanation of why he acted like this. [It still is stupid, and he really ought to know that the mad king was mad, but it's not like Eddard did not confide to Cersei about what he knew... I mean, Starks are generally prone to monumentally absurd (para)political actions.]

But I disagree that some similar sort of actions were implausible (by "similar" I mean something less stupid and self destructive, but equally threatening to the peace of the realm). There is precedent, for smaller a provocation no less: immediately, the Laughing Storm calling the banners for a breach of a betrothal comes to mind. Rhaegar had every reason, he really ought to know that there would be repercussions and he really ought to monitor and be ready to respond. Besides, Lyanna supposedly knew her brother, and it's not like he didn't have a very tense response to the (way less severe) crowning incident.

IMO, it would be a huge break of voluntary suspension of disbelief if the author was to claim that the normaly expected response from the Stark side would be to do, well, nothing (and consequently, that Rhaegar had no reason whatsoever to seriously worry about that front).

Just to clarify -- if Brandon had tried to mount a civil war on this pretext -- I would find it plausible. If Brandon sent a raven to KL demanding that Rhaegar meet him in combat -- I would find it plausible.

I DON'T find it plausible that Brandon would travel with a hand full of companions to KL and shout in the streets about Rhaegar coming out to die (or meet him in combat, if you prefer). I find it absurd. Headstrong and reckless people still do not go into the enemy's strongest seat of power -- demand that he "come out and die" (no matter the context) and expect to get away with it. I simply do not believe the plausibility of Brandon actually doing that -- as he is described as arrogant and reckless - but not insane.

I can see him taking all sorts of reckless actions -- but from a distance. I don't see how he thought he was entitled to march into KL and not be arrested.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

4 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Just to clarify -- if Brandon had tried to mount a civil war on this pretext -- I would find it plausible. If Brandon sent a raven to KL demanding that Rhaegar meet him in combat -- I would find it plausible.

I DON'T find it plausible that Brandon would travel with a hand full of companions to KL and shout in the streets about Rhaegar coming out to die (or meet him in combat, if you prefer). I find it absurd. Headstrong and reckless people still do not go into the enemy's strongest seat of power -- demand that he "come out and die" (no matter the context) and expect to get away with it. I simply do not believe the plausibility of Brandon actually doing that -- as he is described as arrogant and reckless - but not insane.

I can see him taking all sorts of reckless actions -- but from a distance. I don't see how he thought he was entitled to march into KL and not be arrested.

Especially since he had to travel to KL, he should have had time to cool off some.

It would be one thing if it happened while he was in KL, but to travel a number of days to get there you would think he would have had time to think maybe this is only going to end with me dead.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

2 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I can see him taking all sorts of reckless actions -- but from a distance. I don't see how he thought he was entitled to march into KL and not be arrested.

Yea, that's a problem indeed. He's not a thirteen-year-old, he's the heir of an entire kingdom ffs, that was beyond stupid. I agree that we should demand better explanations than mere stupidity, it would qualify as a plot hole if we are searching for such.

 

But as you say, a civil war is not out of the question, so there are good enough reasons to call for Rhaegar's attention to the matters of the realm.

[Knight Of Winter]

Irrelevant to most of the discussion above, but Rhaegar reminds me of a permanently stoned guy. He's utterly detached from the outer reality, lives inside his own world and and cool with everything.

• Rhaegar, everyone will be pissed of if you crown Lyanna as QOAB
• Nah, it's cool, bro.

 

• Rhaegar, dissapering with Lyanna will cause huge political crisis
• Don't worry, I've got in under control, bro

 

• Rhaegar, what happened to your plans to depose Aerys?
• Oh, that. Well, three headed dragon is more important

 

• Hey, here I am. What happened in the new months I was away?
• Civil war has happened.
• Oh, okay. So I'm gonna fight Robert and than I'll make some changes and than everything will be okay. Relax, bro

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

1 minute ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Irrelevant to most of the discussion above, but Rhaegar reminds me of a permanently stoned guy. He's utterly detached from the outer reality, lives inside his own world and and cool with everything.

• Rhaegar, everyone will be pissed of if you crown Lyanna as QOAB
• Nah, it's cool, bro.

 

• Rhaegar, dissapering with Lyanna will cause huge political crisis
• Don't worry, I've got in under control, bro

 

• Rhaegar, what happened to your plans to depose Aerys?
• Oh, that. Well, three headed dragon is more important

 

• Hey, here I am. What happened in the new months I was away?
• Civil war has happened.
• Oh, okay. So I'm gonna fight Robert and than I'll make some changes and than everything will be okay. Relax, bro

That is EXACTLY why none of it makes sense. Does that sound like the description of Rhaegar anywhere else in the books (besides Robert's description of him)?

 

And this is why Lyanna being TKoLT and Aerys discovering this answers all of the problems.

Rhaegar, everyone will be pissed of if you crown Lyanna as QOAB:Tipping his hat to her courage

Rhaegar, disappearing with Lyanna will cause huge political crisis: Had no choice, had to act to save her

Rhaegar, what happened to your plans to depose Aerys?: Modified because of Aerys move against Lyanna

What happened in the new months I was away? Either hiding Lyanna from Aerys or waiting out Lyanna's birth or both

 

[purple-eyes]

5 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

That is EXACTLY why none of it makes sense. Does that sound like the description of Rhaegar anywhere else in the books (besides Robert's description of him)?

 

And this is why Lyanna being TKoLT and Aerys discovering this answers all of the problems.

Rhaegar, everyone will be pissed of if you crown Lyanna as QOAB:Tipping his hat to her courage

Rhaegar, disappearing with Lyanna will cause huge political crisis: Had no choice, had to act to save her

Rhaegar, what happened to your plans to depose Aerys?: Modified because of Aerys move against Lyanna

What happened in the new months I was away? Either hiding Lyanna from Aerys or waiting out Lyanna's birth or both

 

Your rescue theory never makes sense to me. 

You rescue a person from danger like a policeman, ok, then you put her somewhere with guards, but you do not need to be there with her together. And you do not sleep with the person you rescue. 

Rhaegar is not pregnant, what is the point for him to be there with lyanna for a year when there is a war outside? 

[Kal-L]

11 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

That is EXACTLY why none of it makes sense. Does that sound like the description of Rhaegar anywhere else in the books (besides Robert's description of him)?

 

And this is why Lyanna being TKoLT and Aerys discovering this answers all of the problems.

Rhaegar, everyone will be pissed of if you crown Lyanna as QOAB:Tipping his hat to her courage

Rhaegar, disappearing with Lyanna will cause huge political crisis: Had no choice, had to act to save her

Rhaegar, what happened to your plans to depose Aerys?: Modified because of Aerys move against Lyanna

What happened in the new months I was away? Either hiding Lyanna from Aerys or waiting out Lyanna's birth or both

 

1) Even though that was his purpose, Who cares ? He was here to convince the Lord of his worth as a ruler.

2) And he hid her in the South while she would have been more safe almost anywhere else in the 7K, while the Warden of the North would have been indebted to him for having save his daughter.

3) At the contrary it was the best opportunity to take over kingship and gaining the alliance to his "cause".

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

2 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Your rescue theory never makes sense to me. 

You rescue a person from danger like a policeman, ok, then you put her somewhere with guards, but you do not need to be there with her together. And you do not sleep with the person you rescue. 

Rhaegar is not pregnant, what is the point for him to be there with lyanna for a year when there is a war outside? 

Part of my rescue theory is they are married right after.

Aerys move against Lyanna is the explanation for the timing, not for the union of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Rhaegar would have wanted to stay with Lyanna for a few reasons. 1: Aerys might be as mad at him as he was at Lyanna now. 2: If they are married and he is trying for the 3rd dragon then he needs to get to it. 3: By the time they get to the Tower and get news of Brandon and Rickard, a civil war has started. One that is likely to have both side angry at them. Rhaegar probably cant just go to either side and explain.

 

It was only after the Targaryen side was losing that Aerys called for Rhaegar, maybe before that Rhaegar as persona non gratta before then?

[Knight Of Winter]

20 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

That is EXACTLY why none of it makes sense. Does that sound like the description of Rhaegar anywhere else in the books (besides Robert's description of him)?

No, and I admit I'm having much trouble reconciling Rheagar's intelligent, able and dutiful personality with his stupid actions during Harrenhall tourney and RR. However, text does indeed present Rhaegar as acting pretty dumb. For what reasons, I don't know - maybe it's prophecy, maybe it's Lyanna, maybe it's something else, but his actions are clearly dumb, IMO.

When confronted with this, I've usually seen Rhaegar defenders claiming that we shouldn't he so hasty to judge because we don't know everything, that there are surely several as-of-now hidden pieces of the puzzle which will explain much. What we do know, however, are the consequences of Rhaegar's actions: several great houses getting pissed at him, his wife's family not supporting him as strongly as it could, (partially) civil war, death and dethronement of his family and, as an icing on the cake - destruction of his own prophecy. Whatever his reasons and motives were, does anything really justify the cost I mentioned? No.

 

20 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Rhaegar, everyone will be pissed of if you crown Lyanna as QOAB:Tipping his hat to her courage Pissing off everyone >>> tipping off Lyanna's courage

 

Rhaegar, disappearing with Lyanna will cause huge political crisis: Had no choice, had to act to save her Caused even worse crisis by witholding information from her family

Rhaegar, what happened to your plans to depose Aerys?: Modified because of Aerys move against Lyanna Completely halted as less important than "dragon must have three heads"

What happened in the new months I was away? Either hiding Lyanna from Aerys or waiting out Lyanna's birth or both Well, civil war won't stop itself if you remain hidden.

 

 

[purple-eyes]

I think GRRM made Brandon as an idiot for the need of plot. Nobody like brandon will behave like brandon. 

It may be more possible that brandon was so sad after losing lyanna that he threw himself out of tower Than that he spent two weeks to run to KL and wanted to publicly kill rhaegar. 

Seriously, this is not possible at all. Plus I do not understand why Elbert and Kyle also followed him all the way to KL and threatened rhaegar. 

 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

3 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

1) Even though that was his purpose, Who cares ? He was here to convince the Lord of his worth as a ruler.

2) And he hid her in the South while she would have been more safe almost anywhere else in the 7K, while the Warden of the North would have been indebted to him for having save his daughter.

3) At the contrary it was the best opportunity to take over kingship and gaining the alliance to his "cause".

1: it was a minor thing that is only a big deal because he later ran off Lyanna. It would have had almost zero effect on the other Lords not names Stark or Baratheon. The Tyrells were already going to support him. And Rickard Stark and Hoster Tully did not even come to the Tourney. Rhaegar might have already received his answer from them, ie their no show.

2:Not true. Rickard already no showed the Tournament. Even if Rhaegar showed up with Lyanna, Rickard might have taken her and told Rhaegar to get lost. The North, Riverlands, Stormlands and Vale are all in bed together and Aerys runs the Crownlands.

The only place that were really free from them would be the Reach and Dorne. Remember the timing might have been due to Aerys actions, but Rhaegar still obviously that he needed a third child and it seems he thought Lyanna was the one to do it.

3:What was the best opportunity? As far as we know Rhaegar only had maybe one LP in his pocket (Dorne). Rickard, Hoster and Tywin all no showed the Tournament. Robert was a youngster that would likely follow what ever Jon Arryn did.

It does not seem that Rhaegar was at all close to taking the throne

[purple-eyes]

4 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Part of my rescue theory is they are married right after.

Aerys move against Lyanna is the explanation for the timing, not for the union of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Rhaegar would have wanted to stay with Lyanna for a few reasons. 1: Aerys might be as mad at him as he was at Lyanna now. 2: If they are married and he is trying for the 3rd dragon then he needs to get to it. 3: By the time they get to the Tower and get news of Brandon and Rickard, a civil war has started. One that is likely to have both side angry at them. Rhaegar probably cant just go to either side and explain.

 

It was only after the Targaryen side was losing that Aerys called for Rhaegar, maybe before that Rhaegar as persona non gratta before then?

So in your scaenario, aerys tried to hunt lyanna, rhaegar rescued her, then rhaegar somehow thought: what the hell, since we are together now, why do not we have some sex and make a child? I kind of need a third head. 

Is this your scenario? 

What if aerys did not hunt lyanna, who will rhaegar take as mother of his third head? Ashara? Or rhaegar will still wait for some time to elope with lyanna? Just more slowly? 

Do not you think grrm is a more organized author than this? 

[purple-eyes]

5 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

1: it was a minor thing that is only a big deal because he later ran off Lyanna. It would have had almost zero effect on the other Lords not names Stark or Baratheon. The Tyrells were already going to support him. And Rickard Stark and Hoster Tully did not even come to the Tourney. Rhaegar might have already received his answer from them, ie their no show.

2:Not true. Rickard already no showed the Tournament. Even if Rhaegar showed up with Lyanna, Rickard might have taken her and told Rhaegar to get lost. The North, Riverlands, Stormlands and Vale are all in bed together and Aerys runs the Crownlands.

The only place that were really free from them would be the Reach and Dorne. Remember the timing might have been due to Aerys actions, but Rhaegar still obviously that he needed a third child and it seems he thought Lyanna was the one to do it.

3:What was the best opportunity? As far as we know Rhaegar only had maybe one LP in his pocket (Dorne). Rickard, Hoster and Tywin all no showed the Tournament. Robert was a youngster that would likely follow what ever Jon Arryn did.

It does not seem that Rhaegar was at all close to taking the throne

You feel like your theory explains everything, in fact, it only make things over-complicated. 

If rhaegar decided lyanna is the mother of third head, then he does not need to wait for aerys hunting her to rescue her. 

If he only rescue her from daddy, then he does not need to have sex with her. 

You mix two things together and make it unclear on either motivation. So it does not make sense. 

 

 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Just now, purple-eyes said:

So in your scaenario, aerys tried to hunt lyanna, rhaegar rescued her, then rhaegar somehow thought: what the hell, since we are together now, why do not we have some sex and make a child? I kind of need a third head. 

Is this your scenario? 

What if aerys did not hunt lyanna, who will rhaegar take as mother of his third head? Ashara? Or rhaegar will still wait for some time to elope with lyanna? Just more slowly? 

Do not you think grrm is a more organized author than this? 

I think that at some point that Rhaegar figured out that Lyanna needed to the mother of the third head. And that he would have tried to figure away for that to happen, one that would have been less destructive and more beneficial for all involved.

Maybe that was Rhaegar directly going to Rickard and bargaining for Lyanna's hand? Maybe becoming King first and then doing that? I dont know what he would have done.

After hearing that Aerys' men were going to arrest Lyanna (most likely ending in her death and a war with the Starks) Rhaegar had to act, and part of the plan was to marry her. Thus tying Lyanna to himself as well as hopefully the Starks as he is now her husband and she is now a Targaryen Princess.

If Rhaegar can win the Starks, then the Arryns and Tullys fall in line. That just leave Robert, but one LP is not going to rebel by himself and maybe, just maybe he can work out a deal to make Robert happy. Provide another Bride and some concessions to smooth things over.As King Rhaegar would have a lot ability to make things good.

[purple-eyes]

2 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I think that at some point that Rhaegar figured out that Lyanna needed to the mother of the third head. And that he would have tried to figure away for that to happen, one that would have been less destructive and more beneficial for all involved.

Maybe that was Rhaegar directly going to Rickard and bargaining for Lyanna's hand? Maybe becoming King first and then doing that? I dont know what he would have done.

After hearing that Aerys' men were going to arrest Lyanna (most likely ending in her death and a war with the Starks) Rhaegar had to act, and part of the plan was to marry her. Thus tying Lyanna to himself as well as hopefully the Starks as he is now her husband and she is now a Targaryen Princess.

If Rhaegar can win the Starks, then the Arryns and Tullys fall in line. That just leave Robert, but one LP is not going to rebel by himself and maybe, just maybe he can work out a deal to make Robert happy. Provide another Bride and some concessions to smooth things over.As King Rhaegar would have a lot ability to make things good.

So now you mean rhaegar decided he will use marriage to rescue lyanna? When he was married and lyanna was betrothed? 

Dude, you need to firstly make your theory more clearly. 

When did rhaegar decide lyanna must be mother of third head? 

When did he decide he needs to marry her? 

What is the relationship of these events with your rescue? 

Did he find lyanna must be the mother before or after rescue? 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

4 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

You feel like your theory explains everything, in fact, it only make things over-complicated. 

If rhaegar decided lyanna is the mother of third head, then he does not need to wait for aerys hunting her to rescue her. 

If he only rescue her from daddy, then he does not need to have sex with her. 

You mix two things together and make it unclear on either motivation. So it does not make sense.

OK, so you tell me what Rhaegar should have done. If you are Rhaegar and assume that these two things are true, 1: Elia can not have a third child and 2: you believe with all of your heart that you have to have a 3rd child with Lyanna Stark to save the world (which seems to be true in hindsight)

What do you do? How do you not start a war? How do you not hurt Elia or Lyanna? How do you become King? How do you produce Jon?

[Kal-L]

Just now, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

1: it was a minor thing that is only a big deal because he later ran off Lyanna. It would have had almost zero effect on the other Lords not names Stark or Baratheon. The Tyrells were already going to support him. And Rickard Stark and Hoster Tully did not even come to the Tourney. Rhaegar might have already received his answer from them, ie their no show.

2:Not true. Rickard already no showed the Tournament. Even if Rhaegar showed up with Lyanna, Rickard might have taken her and told Rhaegar to get lost. The North, Riverlands, Stormlands and Vale are all in bed together and Aerys runs the Crownlands.

The only place that were really free from them would be the Reach and Dorne. Remember the timing might have been due to Aerys actions, but Rhaegar still obviously that he needed a third child and it seems he thought Lyanna was the one to do it.

3:What was the best opportunity? As far as we know Rhaegar only had maybe one LP in his pocket (Dorne). Rickard, Hoster and Tywin all no showed the Tournament. Robert was a youngster that would likely follow what ever Jon Arryn did.

It does not seem that Rhaegar was at all close to taking the throne

1. If he wanted to dethrone his father thanks to the approval of the others Lords, it wasn't a 'minor things'. Lords were taking high risk in joining Rhaegar and him disrepecting them so outrightly despite his situation (his need of support) would definitely put the Stark alliance out oh his plans.

2. Why would he ? What was Rhaegar's goal, to dethrone his mad father or to bed Rickard Stark's daughter ? If that is the latter then yes the Lord of the North would have been in his right to tell him off however if it's the first which would be the best one for the realm then I don't see why Rickard Stark would have refused to help the man who just saved his daughter from the mad King.

3. Already explain earlier, besides I just add that Rickard actually sent his heir and all his children to that tournaments.

He was definitely not because he showed himself incompetent despite all his talents.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Just now, purple-eyes said:

So now you mean rhaegar decided he will use marriage to rescue lyanna? When he was married and lyanna was betrothed? 

Dude, you need to firstly make your theory more clearly. 

When did rhaegar decide lyanna must be mother of third head? 

Some point between the Tournament and the "kidnapping"

 

When did he decide he needs to marry her? 

Some point between the Tournament and the "kidnapping" It was part of his future plan had Aerys not tried to arrest her her. This was just sped up

What is the relationship of these events with your rescue? 

The rescue just explains the timing of the events and why it was so haphazard and ill planned, and why it is important that Lyanna was TKotLT

Did he find lyanna must be the mother before or after rescue? 

Before

 

[purple-eyes]

4 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

OK, so you tell me what Rhaegar should have done. If you are Rhaegar and assume that these two things are true, 1: Elia can not have a third child and 2: you believe with all of your heart that you have to have a 3rd child with Lyanna Stark to save the world (which seems to be true in hindsight)

What do you do? How do you not start a war? How do you not hurt Elia or Lyanna? How do you become King? How do you produce Jon?

Where did you see rhaegar believe lyanna must be the mother of savior? 

He genuinely wish to have all three   children with elia. 

So any fertile woman can do this job. Not just lyanna. 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

1 minute ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

OK, so you tell me what Rhaegar should have done. If you are Rhaegar and assume that these two things are true, 1: Elia can not have a third child and 2: you believe with all of your heart that you have to have a 3rd child with Lyanna Stark to save the world (which seems to be true in hindsight)

What do you do? How do you not start a war? How do you not hurt Elia or Lyanna? How do you become King? How do you produce Jon?

Rheagar is supposed to be a well read and intelligent man. As such, he would have also read all that has been written about the nature of prophecies and consequently he should have known that a genuinely true prophecy will take care of itself and be fulfilled no matter what, without help.

Therefore I would do whatever I was about to do, irrespectively of any prophecy.